4 player panel, size and joystick/interface considerations...please help

[severdhed]

hey guys, im looking at building my first 4 player panel that i plan to attach to a 25" dynamo cabinet (to replace the small, cut-corner metal panel)....provided that i can get my 27" tv in there.  i sold my DK cabinet to another forum member who will be pickign it up saturday.  my existing 2 player mame cabinet, will be moved upstairs to the kid's playroom.  this leaves me with one 4 player cabinet in the family room.

I want 4 players, trackball, and dedicated 4 way stick.  i want to have enough room for all the controls, but without it looking too large.  my current 2player panel is 12x30 and is pretty comfortable for 2 adults.


i will be taking the trackball from this panel to put in the new one....here is what i have come up with so far


exact locations arent set yet, just a rough idea of spacing.  this panel is 18x40..i moved the player 1 and 2 controls each 1 inch closer to the center, which i think i will not do, so  i'll probably make it 18x42.  does that seem like a reasonable size for a 4player panel on a cabinet this size?

i know that players 3 and 4 would be standing at strange angles, but that's how they are on real 4 player cabinets and to be honest i just dont expect them to be used that heavily.

i am leaning towards that color scheme so that the TMNT characters are color coded properly.

the 3 yellow buttons will be wired up the same as player 1 buttons 1-3 to be used with the 4way stick.(red stick in the picture)


my real dilemma is what sticks and encoder to use.  i currently have two u360s in my zakman cabinet, i also have a gutted 2 player x-arcade unit that was in my DK cabinet. i look at it that i have 2 options:

1. move the u360s to the new cabinet, get some sanwa JLW sticks for players 3 and 4 so they match.  i can use the u360s for some of the buttons, and get a 2 player ipac or keywiz  for the rest of the controls.  i can then use the transplanted x-arcade encoder for the zakman cabinet (just set up with a street fighter type layout, and a dedicated 4way)

2. keep the u360s in the zakman cabinet and go with a standard street fighter setup, then buy  an ipac4 and some happ competition sticks for the new panel, and dont do anything with the xarcade.

the zakman cabinet will primarily be used by the kids since it will be upstairs, so i'm thinking using cheap sticks in it might be a better option.  that way with the u360s in the new cabinet, i can still play qbert.  my concern here is that i haven't used JLWs in 8way mode before, i'm not sure how i will like them...but then again they are only for the 4 player games, so it may not matter at all. (i know they are awesome 4way sticks.) 

if i have to buy an ipac 2 for players 3 and 4, should i just spend the extra money and get the ipac 4 just in case i want to change something down the road?


is there anything else i am overlooking?

[severdhed]

wow..ok, 49 views and nothing.

maybe it was too much reading...

for those of you with 4 player panels, what are the dimensions of your panels?

and an unrelated question, why are there orange and purple happ buttons, but no color matching competition sticks to go with them?  i see that IL makes oranges ones, but still no purple...this is stupid

[drventure]

That layout looks good to me. My 4p panel is quite large so I'm not sure it's a good reference. 48"wide, 19 deep with 2 levels.

You might consider cutting angles off the front corners, just to take a bit of the "rectangular box" look edge off.

[severdhed]

cool...thanks.  yeah, i dont plan on making it rectangular, the program i used to lay that out doesnt allow for custom shapes.  i will either have angled cuts on the two front edges, or possibly make the entire front curved if i can figure out how to do that properly.  i think at 18x42 i can get everything to fit and still be functional.  the panel at work is really comfortable at all 4 positions...but i am willing to make it a little less comfortable for players 3 and 4 to make it smaller.

[tylervalo]

Here's mine:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

It's approx 20x42 and very comfortable for all 4 players.

[Xiaou2]

flip up trackballs

[kronic24601]

I think your player 3 & 4 sides are way too tight to enjoy.

Either go wider, or loose the spinner.

[drventure]

Flip up trackballs.... Nice! In the right cab, that'd work great.

Or maybe a flip up wheel. Wonder if you could get clearance enough for something like that. it's the only thing I really wish I could fit into my cab, a decent wheel.

[severdhed]

I think your player 3 & 4 sides are way too tight to enjoy.

Either go wider, or loose the spinner.

i'm going to try a cardboard mockup here soon...did you mean lose the trackball?  because i dont have a spinner

[kronic24601]

umm ... yes ... that is what I meant

I ended up spending a lot of time mach-ing things out before I decided what to do. After intensive reading of people who had done everywhich way imaginable and also mach-ing up a number of combinations I came up with these general facts.

1) Most people don't really like the Frankenpanel. (due to look & feel, clutter and size ... it may seem to have all your options, but it just sort of overwhelms instead.)

2) To layout a 4player panel with a trackball and enough space to comfortably play is just WAY to wide. I don't know about your space, but once I made a mach-up, and placed it in my room it was just too darn large. The Trackball adds too much.

So I ended up building a swappable panel.

Bottom line, from what I have read, you will have to sacrifice 1 of the following.

1) Playability
2) 4 Players
3) Trackball
4) Size of Panel

Aside from a crazy expandable hardware option (which could be cool) I'm not sure there is another way.

[severdhed]

yeah, it looks a little tight, but i really want to have the trackball and 4 players...i guess i'll just have to make a test panel and see how it is.  i could probably go with a few inches wider if i had to. 

on a positive note, i measured the dynamo cabinet tonight and the TV i have will fit if i remove it from the case...now i just have to figure out how to do that safely and effectivly.

[sstralkowski]

I'd say go wider if you plan on keeping the trackball.  44-46" should be ok (I know mine is around 42" without the trackball).  Also, the angles of P3 & P4 are really awkward.  Maybe make that angle less harsh so they can see the screen better.  You said they won't get much use, but when they do, your players will be thanking you.   

[DillonFoulds]

The lighter grey box on the inside of the panel is a representation of the box that the panel will be sitting on. The dimensions are based on a 4p NBA Jam Tournament Edition conversion kit, that is mounted on a Sega Spider-man cabinet. The board is 14"H x 37"W x 3/4"D. Keep in mind there's no trackball, and that's a(n arkanoid?) spinner in the middle of the board.

The IPAC is an IPAC4. Bounding boxes around the joysticks and spinner represent measurements of the screwholes, and not the actual outline of the joystick body.

All measurements are correct, with 2 exceptions.
- I made the width of the top narrow edge about 1" too wide. I'll need to correct this.
- Overall the panel is about 1/4" too wide. With T-molding the measurements are exact. I will NOT correct this, as everything is centered exactly, and this will allow me to run artwork over the sides a bit, and under the t-molding.

Second picture is the same, but with a grid representing inches and 1/4 inches.

I've got a .PSD file of my CPO, if you're interested. It's about 20MB, and was made in Photoshop CS3. I've yet to add any artwork.

[sstralkowski]

The lighter grey box on the inside of the panel is a representation of the box that the panel will be sitting on. The dimensions are based on a 4p NBA Jam Tournament Edition conversion kit, that is mounted on a Sega Spider-man cabinet. The board is 14"H x 37"W x 3/4"D. Keep in mind there's no trackball, and that's a(n arkanoid?) spinner in the middle of the board.

The IPAC is an IPAC4. Bounding boxes around the joysticks and spinner represent measurements of the screwholes, and not the actual outline of the joystick body.

All measurements are correct, with 2 exceptions.
- I made the width of the top narrow edge about 1" too wide. I'll need to correct this.
- Overall the panel is about 1/4" too wide. With T-molding the measurements are exact. I will NOT correct this, as everything is centered exactly, and this will allow me to run artwork over the sides a bit, and under the t-molding.

Second picture is the same, but with a grid representing inches and 1/4 inches.

I've got a .PSD file of my CPO, if you're interested. It's about 20MB, and was made in Photoshop CS3. I've yet to add any artwork.

Why did you offset players 1 & 2?  The lack of symmetry drives my OCD brain nuts, but I'm assuming you've got a rational reason for it. 

[mwong168]

Here is my 4 player podium layout with dedicated 4 way, trackball and spinner.  I decided to go with a MK button layout for P1 and P4 instead of just 4 buttons like most people do.  I figure for a few more bucks why not and I had the extra inputs on my KeyWiz and GPWiz as well.



The joystick of P3 could potentially get in the way of an intense game of Golden Tee but my friends have managed just fine.

Here are the dimensions I used from the jakobud showcase plans which aren't on his site no more.



You might have to click on the image or save the one from the link below which is a larger sized version of it.

http://mwong168.webuda.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=962&g2_serialNumber=1

[DillonFoulds]

Why did you offset players 1 & 2?  The lack of symmetry drives my OCD brain nuts, but I'm assuming you've got a rational reason for it. 

To be honest. I have -no- reasoning behind WHY they're like that. I copied the layout from my NBA JAM TE conversion kit, and it seems to fit comfortably for all players.

I could always straighten it out, but it seems to "work". Elbow space hasn't been a problem for anyone yet with this layout, and I'd like to imagine for fighting games etc, where the slanted 2p layout will shine, that the offset controls should really give that extra space.

[severdhed]

well, i have an old table in my basement that was just about the right size, so i taped off an area 42x18 to see how i could layout everything...i just dont think it will work.  so i think i am going to have to make it 46x18 and that should get me the space i need. 

i found that i need at least 6 inches between the center of the trackball hole and the player 2 joystick, which puts 18" between player 1 and 2 joysticks. otherwise, the p2 joystick is in the way of my arm when using the buttons near the 4way stick. 

i also found that i need at least 11" between the player 2 and 4 joysticks in order to have enough hand space.  i think everything will work this way.

the red button in the center at the back is the exit button, and will be the only admin button on the panel. Im not 100% sure about it being a red button, but red seems to make the most sense as an exit button.   normally i dont like to have coin buttons, but the cabinet i plan on using only has a 2 player coin door and i dont feel like modifying that.  i think for the start buttons, i'll get black player buttons and swap the plungers with the matching color buttons (ex blue ring with black center) and do the opposite for the coin buttons.

players 3 and 4 look a little awkward but they seem to feel pretty good on my table mockup

does this look any better?  i'm just concerned that it will be too big for a cabinet with a 27" monitor.

[Xiaou2]

1)  I believe your biggest problem is that the side players joys appear to be facing inwards...
meaning... that if they have to move a character Up on-screen... they will have to
push the joys a completely different direction in relation to the screen action.  Might seem
easy enough, but you will quickly find yourself making costly errors in heat of action.

 All 4 player arcade games mounted their joys all facing and mapped the same direction.
(Everyone who had to press up - pressed the joy in towards the monitor)
 
 They merely put the buttons in slightly odd places, yet kept the comfort levels as best
as possible.


2) Angling the buttons will only make a persons elbow stick out that much further. It also
leads to slipping off buttons, hitting the side edges instead of the middle of the button.
Your keyboard you type on is not curved. There is good reason for that.

3) Player 2s joystick is too close to the trackball.  When spinning the ball hard, you may slam
into the joy easily.  Better to move it closer to player 1s buttons.  May not be centered...but
will be better for playability.

4) 4way joystick is too deep, and will lead to extreme discomfort in minutes of play.
Better to move the 4way within a centemeter above any of the other sticks, and slightly to the
left.  This will allow the stick to be closer, but not interfere with the standard mode. Also will
make the buttons easier to reach when playing the 4way.  You can additionally add a 2nd 4way,
for dual 4way action games.

5) No Spinners?

=====

 In the pic, note the angles and placment of arms and wrists.  The left hand is vertical, & needs less
support space... but the arm angle is wide.  The right hand lays flat, needing more rest space,
but, it can comfortably bend the wrists like a snake, keeping the arm angle tight to the body.

 The placement of the 4player stick shown above player 1, easily reached & using player 1s
buttons easily. Not in the way of player 1s 8way joy.

 All players facing the correct directions.  The side players bodies can angle a little, and because
of height differences, joy and buttons can be close together to save space.  Wrists and arms
fit better, by raising the controls a little above the 1&2 player controls.  You can see this style in
most the 4player games, and works out well.

 Moved coin and start buttons closer to each players button hand.

 Trackball now has plenty of room for fast and hard spinning. (the way they are designed to be
used)

 Not accurate  in this drawing... so best to get the troops together,
make a cardboard layout, and test arm positions.. adjusting control spacings as needed.

[Xiaou2]

Off-center Ball version : More 4p comfort / space

 

[severdhed]

those are some great suggestions, i'll have to try them out when making my mockup panel.

when i was testing things out last night on that table in my basement, i was trying to take notice to where my arms would be at the various locations and i think i can make it work like this.  symmetry is important for some reason..i just have a hard time not centering things.  as for the trackball in relation to players 1 and 2, i know it will work fine, because that is the exact same spacing as on my existing two player panel...the joysticks have never been in the way. (the bright green rectangle on the image below shows the size and location of my current 2 player panel, which is 12x30) i dont play golden tee or anything like that.  occasionally there will be a game of world class bowling, but 99% of the time, the trackball is used only for centipede and millipede..so no big violent gestures to worry about.

i plan on keeping the joysticks all oriented the same way, it seems a little weird, but i think it is the right choice.

as for the 4way stick, that is where we have it mounted in the panel at work and it feels just fine. (12" back from the front panel, behind the trackball)  i am trying to base this off of the panel we have here at work, but it is 52" wide, so 'm trying to cut down on the width.  standing at an angle on the player 3 and 4 locations may be a little weird, but it will mostly be used when there are other peoples children over to visit...kids arent picky.

here is an updated mockup with rough estimation on the hand locations.


i really wont know how well it will work until i can get a test panel made, today is my wedding anniversary, so not work on it tonight, and we are going away this weekend, so it could be a long wait till i find out

[kronic24601]

The main problem I see here is your hand placement. This assumes that your hands are completely parallel to each other. The problems is that hands and elbows need like 45 degrees of angle to play comfortably. I mean who wants to put there elbows together in front of their body to squeeze in on a game.

If you need to keep everything, I'd push your 1 and 2 players closer to the trackball ... I'd push them as close as you possible can.

Also, I don't think player 3 and 4 joysticks should be set in a parallel to 1 and 2. Most arcade games simply have them "point" towards the monitor ... so in this case it would be something like -- / || \ -- When I playtested what you are showing it was extremely awkward. I would be standing on the left (or right side) of the game and would have to push left (or right) to go up. It should always be considering where your body will be standing, [up for you, down for you, etc...]