Playing Tron with Happs 8-way trigger stick

[spidermonkey]

Hey Guys,
I picked up a Happs heavy duty 8-way trigger stick for my cab for playing Tron, Satans Hollow ect... In the light cycle stage of Tron its hard to turn without zigzaging and thus crashing. I know that the original game had a slight zigzaging problem but nothing like this.Is it because the original arcade machine used a leaf switch trigger stick?Just for the sake of experimenting,I switched the 8-way actuater with a 4-way but just as I suspected it fouled up the control on the other stages of tron. Did the original trigger stick have a special actuater or maybe the leaf tabs were bent to delay contact when turning? Maybe its just a problem with Mame 32.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[x-wing]

The Tron joystick is kinda unique.  The cutout in the base is a diamond shape, like found on 4-way joysticks, but it uses a big round red actuator that lets you contact both leafs for a diagonal.  This gives the Tron joystick a 4-way feel because it moves in a diamond shape, but it is really an 8-way.  I would guess that the Happ trigger stick is completely unrestricted like their super joystick, and that may be causing your excessive zig-zagging.  Maybe with some more practice with the Happ stick, you will get more precise, like getting good at Pac-Man with an 8-way.  

[spidermonkey]

I thought that all 8-way actuators were square but if the tron stick uses an extra large round actuator than that would dampen the diagonal contact sensitivity. If only I could get my hands on an original actuator. I may try to make a larger round actuator out of a plastic bushing and see what happens. I assume that the larger round actuator makes up for the loss of the 4 corners on a standard square 8-way actuator thus smoothing out the diagonal movements. The happ trigger stick comes with a metal mounting plate and it does have a unrestrictive round hole that the stick passes through. The mounting plate that came with the stick has an unrestrictive hole as you pointed out. I think I will make up a new plate with the restrictive diamond shaped hole and try that. Anybody have the vertical and horizontal dimentions for the original diamond shaped hole on the tron stick? I'd love to here from you. Thanks for you're help x-wing

[OSCAR]

I happen to have a Tron cp here that I'm modifying the spinner on.  I disassembled the joystick base (hope you don't mind, Craig ) and took some pics and measurements for you.  The base does in fact have a diamond shaped restrictor.  You are correct in your assumptions, the diagonals aren't very sensitive.  If there are any other measurements you need, just let me know.

The pics are at www.oscarcontrols.com/tron.

[spidermonkey]

These pictures and measurments are a great help!
I will now be able to make the nessesary modifications to my stick thanks to you Oscar. Thanks for taking the time to help me.

[OSCAR]

I'm glad you found the pics useful!  Just by luck I happened to have a Tron CP in front of me when the topic came up.

I'll have the CP for about another week, so just let me know if there are any other measurements or pics you need.

[telengard]

I've been having the *exact* same issue, glad to
have it explained.  I found that when I replaced
the microswitches w/ leafs on my Happs trigger it behaved a little better but still zig zags.  I'd hate to make changes to the joystick to support Tron that would make other games not as responsive, i.e. Zaxxon.

If anyone comes up with or knows of a way to get
it to play a little better that wouldn't involve modifying
the joystick would make my cab complete...  

[Bilbo Baggins]

You gotta wonder why HAPPS wouldn't have made this closer to the TRON sensitivity because after all, it is THE most famous of the games to use this type of stick. Or at least they could have provided an extra restrictor plate. The customers buying these are mainly emulator people at this point, and they will be trying TRON first.

[spidermonkey]

You just hit it on the nose. For $105.00 they could at least give you a 75 cent restrictor plate. As crazy as it sounds,I bought that stick mainly for playing tron. Other games like Gorf,Satans Hollow or Zaxxon are fun with the trigger stick but lets face it, you don't really need it to play the games effectivly. As for Tron, unless you were born with three hands it is damn near impossible to work a spinner,move the joystick and press the fire button unless of course your an octopus. Anybody who is still thinking about buying one of these should know that they still do work great for most other games that call for this type of stick but don't expect precise control while playing Tron. The stick sure looks mean on my control panel though!
I think I'll go play a couple rounds of Zaxxon now.

[Tiger-Heli]

Comments to Spidermonkey, etc.:

What I plan to do (and might be a cheaper/better alternative to modifying that Happ Stick).

Couldn't you install OSCAR's 4-way Restrictor plates and use the restrictor plates for the light cycle game only and not for the other games?

Question for OSCAR:

Do you agree with this recommendation and how well would this work using a Happ Super with a PC-trigger fire joystick handle?

[Centipede]

Spidermonkey,

That's really lame that you paid that much money for something you can't even use on the one game you really need it for! For the amount of work it's going to take to fix it, you might have been able to get an original old Tron panel and fixed it up. I was actually going to have the slikstik guys put one of these sticks in a panel for me. I guess I'll hold off on that now. Did you get the one with more than 1 button so that you can play Discs of Tron? Just wondering how easy it is to set up the additional buttons. The other great game to use that stick on is Forgotten Worlds (a true classic!). If you manage to get a good and easy solution to play Tron well along with everything else, please post on here!

[Ripper]

HAPPS should provide a restrictor plate for less sensitive games. For this type of product we ARE the only few customers they have. Did they not put any research into their target customer base when they made this thing??

[Rico Suave]

Dude, if I paid over $100 for a joystick and it didn't work on TRON I'd ask HAPPS for my $$ back and I woudn't buy another until they provided a solution. That's just too much money for a fixer upper!!

[Mark_K]

After reading all of this (I was also interested in purchasing one of these!), I sent out an email to HAPPS. Here is the response I got:

>>>>>>>
Mark,
Was Tron strictly U,D,L and R? Like Pac-Man? We currently do not have a 4-way version for the Heavy-Duty JS. We can make a new plate if we think we can sell them.
Let me know what you think.
<<<<<<<

I responded to this explaining that TRON was an 8-way game but less forgiving than the other games in terms of sensitivity.
Sounds like they might be willing to make an extra plate if they get some more requests. Might be a good idea to send them an email!

[spidermonkey]

Happ has only been around since 85 or 86 and pretty much missed the boat at the height of the 80s videogame craze. I think Bally/Midway or another company designed the original leaf switch trigger stick for tron as well as many other games like gorf,satans hollow ect...I think happ bought the rights to these and other sticks much later. They kept the original triggerstick handle but scrapped the restrictor plate,switched to micro switches and changed the actuator thus ruining the control feeling of the original stick. Even if they do decide to offer a restrictor plate,I'm afraid it won't help because too many other things have been changed on the stick.You can't hardly move the stick without triggering one of the micro switches. Its waaaay too sensitive. The leaf switch version had bit more range before making contact thus making it much less sensitive. We all know that both Happ and Wico think leaf switch joysticks are now taboo so it does'nt  look like we will be able to buy a solution.
Oh well, Time to start looking for an old leaf switch joystick that I can hack the leaf switches off of.

[Mark_K]

spidermonkey,

Never hurts to talk with them though. They seem pretty open to looking at this issue. We are a major portion of their niche market at this point, so I think they'd be better off (in the long run) making sure that we like the product. You did pay the big bucks and they might be able to come up with a solution you haven't thought of yet. Seriously, try emailing them and asking about this before writing the issue off.

[ZaxxonForever]

I'd buy one of these as well if I knew for sure that it worked well for TRON. I'd much rather have new parts in my cab than old parts from the early 80s. It will last longer and won't have any wear and tear (not to mention 80s cigarette smell!). What other company is going to make these anyhow? HAPPs seems to be the only company, so we might as well ask them!

[Crackbaby]

Yeah, what zaxxonforever just said. DITTO.

[spidermonkey]

Hey Guys
I just e-mailed Happ Controls and gave them a full explanation on why they should consider offering a diamond shaped restrictor plate and the original extra large round actuator that the original Midway Tron stick had. I explained that alot of people would consider buying there stick if they offered these two extra parts as an option. They aquired the Midway coin ops department in 2001 so Im pretty sure they must still have the schematics for these parts. If I hear anything from them I'll post it right away as I am finding out that I am not the only one with this problem.

[Steve The Victim]

Good job spidermonkey! You should also provide a link to this thread as well as the entire message board. If I were running these companies (Hanaho, HAPPS, Slikstik, etc.) I'd have an employee posting on here all the time looking for new product ideas and feedback on existing products. It's free advertising and marketing research! And the people in here spread the word in the emulator communities everywhere.

[spidermonkey]

I did provide the link and I hope they will check it out. I explained to them  that they may be quite suprised at how many potential customers they could aquire by offering these and other hard to find parts.

[Q-bit]

I've been looking for a good trigger stick. But if this doesn't play TRON well, I guess I'll have to keep looking. Anyone know any others out there that work well for TRON as well as the other games?? Thanks!

[Andyman]

spidermonkey,

Please let us know when you hear back from HAPPS about this. I will definitely purchase on of these sticks if I am able to play TRON well! It's my favorite game!

[1UP]

Apparently, the Tron repro handles from Arcade Renovations are now in production!  They're actually listed on the site now.  Maybe this in combination with a hacked 4-way (with diamond restrictor) could solve the problems with Tron.  Maybe rounding out the restrictor a little would allow some response in diagonals, while still giving a good, solid 4-way feel...

BTW, in some of the pics I've seen of the tron CPs, it looks like the stick actuator is made of red rubber.  Could this be why the diagonals were less responsive, because the restrictor was shaped to limit the diagonals, but the actuator had some give?  Can anyone with a Tron CP confirm this?

[x-wing]

BTW, in some of the pics I've seen of the tron CPs, it looks like the stick actuator is made of red rubber.  Could this be why the diagonals were less responsive, because the restrictor was shaped to limit the diagonals, but the actuator had some give?  Can anyone with a Tron CP confirm this?

No.  The red rubber actuator is very hard, although mine is ~20 yrs old so that might have something to do with it.  

Regardless, the joystick also uses leaf switches for the directions.  If you are familar with leaf switches, then you know how easy they bend to make contact.  I can't imagine any rubber giving before the leaf switches would.  Now if the actuator was made from Silly Putty, that would be a different story....  

[SirPoonga]

So, am I to get this that the tron stick is an 8way, but the leaf switches were bent to get the 8way effect?

[MinerAl]

How about an Oscar-style top-of-the-CP Happs HD Trigger Stick restrictor?  One that was shaped mostly like a diamond, but with bulging "flat" surfaces that allow limited 8-way-ness.  Kelsey?  

I wish one of us had the facilities to mass mold plastics.  We need a complete Tron-esque trigger handle for standard Happs Comps and Supers, we need a nice ball top, and a trigger ball top (Tron cocktail), for those sticks too.  Then Oscar could produce the perfect Tron restrictors, and we could leave Happs mostly out of the loop.

When I strike it rich...

[Tiger-Heli]

>How about an Oscar-style top-of-the-CP Happs HD Trigger Stick >restrictor?  One that was shaped mostly like a diamond, but with >bulging "flat" surfaces that allow limited 8-way-ness.  Kelsey?  

Spidermonkey used the original Tron diamond restrictor in the Happs HD TriggerStick and said it worked fine.  Also said it would be easy to make your own.  That's what we need.

>I wish one of us had the facilities to mass mold plastics.  We need a >complete Tron-esque trigger handle for standard Happs Comps and >Supers, we need a nice ball top,

Been done - See www.1uparcade.com, Same guy that makes the Tron handles also made Ball tops for Comps and Supers, not sure if he's still in the arcade biz, though

>and a trigger ball top (Tron cocktail), for those sticks too.

That would be good.

[MinerAl]

...
Been done - See www.1uparcade.com, Same guy that makes the Tron handles also made Ball tops for Comps and Supers, not sure if he's still in the arcade biz, though

Those Tron handles are perfect reproductions of the originals and need quite a bit of rigging to get them to fit on Comps/Supers.  I'm talking about a complete fits-happs-sticks-without-fuss Tron-lookin' trigger stick.  

That said, there would still be the 8-way problem and the spinning stick top problem...

[NoOne=NBA=]

I had this same problem, but think I've found a workable solution.

I have a Saitek ST220 handle hacked onto a Happ Ultimate that was doing the zig-zag thing really bad as originally installed.

What I did to fix it was cut a piece of wooden flag pole (1" diameter) the same thickness as the factory "square" actuator and bore a 5/16" hole through the center of it.
This gives very positive contact to the 4-way positions; but still allows it to contact both switches for 8-way operation.
I didn't do any other modifications to the switches or anything, and the problem appears to be solved--at least for me.

I think the problem with the Happ Supers is that they have those metal levers on them.
(The levers do make them feel better, and more sensitive, to me for most games however).
The levers on the Super allow the actuator to trigger the diagonals easier than the bare switch buttons on the Ultimate, resulting in the zig-zags as described above.

My only complaint regarding the stick I put together is that I'd like a little heavier return spring on it.
With the larger handle, it is a little soft, but plays REALLY well for me.
I'll keep working on that, and post here if I run into anything worth posting.

I was originally planning to get one of the Happ Heavy-Duty trigger sticks, but decided to do this hack until I get the money for it.
If this works, I may stick with it; and build a few others into some of my other control panels.
The ST220 has three thumb buttons in addition to the trigger, and I think I got the one I just used for about $10 on sale.
Couple that with a Happ Ultimate for about $15, and I can build 4 of them for the price of 1 of the Heavy Duty sticks.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I experimented with the size of the actuator a bit...using....surprise, surprise......electrical tape, to get some of the play out of the stick.

Even a few wraps on the actuator cause it to start zig-zagging again.
I think I hit the "magic" size by accident.

Thankfully, my wife hasn't noticed yet that her wooden flag pole is about 3/4" shorter than it used to be.  

[rdagger]

The Tron joystick is kinda unique.

[u_rebelscum]

The tron stick had very small diagonals, but had them.

[NoOne=NBA=]

And that's what I'm seeing on my modified Ultimate, with no restrictor plate.
You can contact each switch individually from a wide range near the switch; but, for 8-way contact, the stick HAS to be in the corner or the round actuator misses the other button.

I think the restrictor plate was used to "tighten" the joystick.
As mine sits, it has alot of play.
It works really well as-is; but I may try a larger actuator/restrictor plate combo, to get it to contact quicker without zigzagging.