I'm amazed at how many people have the wrong idea...

[tommy]

As many of you know i work with glass and it sometimes takes me to many peoples houses with broken glass and as i fix the patio door glass or window glass or whatever it may be, many people ask me if i come across a lot of this sort of thing and when i tell them i do and most times the best way to keep people out of your yard or make them not want to try to break into your house is to have a big dog. I sometimes tell them you should look into getting a pit bull or other big dogs "normally known" (i guess this is where the stereo type works well) for deterring people from wanting to take a chance on breaking into their house and more times then not they have the wrong idea or impression about these dogs and i laugh.

I can't understand why so many people rely on horror stories and say "oh no, that dog is not safe to be around" when they can be as safe as being around any normal person.

People are so ignorant sometimes and it seems we are afraid of so many things or can't understand so many things in life, STILL, as if we were living in the 50's when so many things were not allowed or when we had so many bad ideas about so many things we all do just fine in todays world.

I almost got into an argument with a customer just like here when he ignorantly said all pit bulls are not safe to be around and are killer dogs. I almost had to walk out of the guys house and tell him to call another guy to fix his glass, but i didn't.

You can't put all things good or bad in the same category in life no matter how you like to spin things.

[mccoy178]

Pitbulls are insanely dangerous dogs.  They should be banned.

[Singapura]

Sure, if you know how to handle them they can be very safe but so are tigers and lions. The problem is that a lot of people don't know how to handle a pitbull. Dogs are very sensitive to their place in the social order and will treat anyone that is afraid of them as inferior and anyone who  is not as a threat, unless it's established that the dog is the inferior one.

When someone who is a stranger to the dog, is not afraid and tries for instance to pet it, it will be confused and try to ascertain it's superiority. This ususally results in biting. A pitbull that bites is more dangerous because it's jaws will lock. This virtual circle will establish the dogs bad name, causing fear etc. There is nothing worse or more dangerous then a confused dog.

[billf]

Sure, if you know how to handle them they can be very safe but so are tigers and lions.

Yeah, just ask Roy Horn of "Siegfried & Roy" fame.

[shmokes]

Wow.  Don't be that guy.  You know beforehand, unless you're mentally retarded, how people feel about pit bulls.  It doesn't matter how legitimate their beliefs are.  Why would you bait a customer by suggesting they get a pit bull, when you know what the likely response is going to be?  That's a customer, for christ's sake!  I'm an atheist, Tommy.  Not only that, but I enjoy blasphemy.  I get a huge, completely unwarranted kick out of it.  But in a business setting, I'm not just going to walk into some random person's house or office and start talking about how laughable the idea of Jesus is.  Cos I know beforehand, that there's a REALLY REALLY REALLY good chance that this person takes Jesus seriously.  It doesn't matter that I think he's a joke. 

Be a professional Tommy.  Real life is not the internet.  I'm great in real life.  Any one of you would thoroughly enjoy my company.  But here, I'm often a bit of an arrogant, know-it-all ---uvula---.  shmokes is an alterego, not just an avatar. 

In other news, a few days ago I got the following message from a friend on MySpace:

Oct 19 2007 3:22 AM
Comment Back - Send Message - Block User


You called it . . . my dog almost killed me when I walked into the living room at 3 am. That was after nearly shaking a cat to death earlier in the day. I can't wait until I'm found dead with my face chewed off . . .

I'm always telling him that his dog is poorly behaved because she goes ---smurfing--- nuts when someone knocks on the door.  He always says she's just excited and not really aggressive.  FWIW, I don't think pit bulls are dangerous.  I think they're more dangerous than almost any other type of dog, but less dangerous than other things that I engage in without thinking twice.  The sweetest dog I've ever known was a rottweiler.  But rottweilers are still dangerous compared to just about every other breed of dog.  Still, though, the danger isn't high.  I don't feel threatened every time I'm in the presence of a pit bull or a rottweiler.  Chances of being attacked for no reason are barely above zero.  It's more likely with a pit bull than a border collie, but the possibilities are still remote enough that you can breath easily.  You're gonna be fine.

[tommy]

You guys act as if these dogs are a loaded pistol ready to go off and that's not the case. It's just a dog just like any other and that is where the confusion starts.

As far as shmokes comment, i didn't start in with this but i defended it. I can't stand by and let ignorance go by and do nothing without a tleast explaining my feelings on the matter, and as i said, i did let it go and did not let it get in the way.

Also, i wish you would start using better comparisons, Jesus is a total other matter altogether and cannot be compared here. That's just not a fair thing to say, shmokes.

[tommy]

Wow.  Don't be that guy.  You know beforehand, unless you're mentally retarded, how people feel about pit bulls. 

I don't know that from looking at a guy. How do i know they would be just another guy making the same general statements as others do. I've ran into many people who agree with me.

[shmokes]

You did start it.  You didn't just stop at, "A big dog is a good way to keep an intruder out."  You said, "A big dog, like a pit bull, is the best way to keep an intruder out."  It's the same thing as Jesus.  I know going in that the person most likely has strong feelings about Jesus that do not coincide with mine, so I'm not gonna bring it up.  If the person comes at me with Jesus talk, sure I'll defend my position, but I'm not going to bait a customer into an argument.  The difference there, is that he/she is the ---uvula--- I'm I'm dealing with him/her, rather than the other way around. 

Similarly, you KNOW how people feel about pit bulls.  You think that they're stupid for feeling that way.  But instead of keeping it to yourself you're baiting them into an argument.  You toss pit bull into the conversation, knowing beforehand that more likely than not the person thinks pit bulls are all ticking time bombs, and then you have the audacity to get huffy about it and pretend it wasn't exactly the outcome you expected.

[tommy]

and then you have the audacity to get huffy about it and pretend it wasn't exactly the outcome you expected.

That was good man, i enjoyed that laugh. 

[tommy]

This is not a believe of whether there is a god or not. This is a fact that some people cannot grasp the idea that a well trained dog is not dangerous no matter the breed.

[shmokes]

I don't know that from looking at a guy. How do i know they would be just another guy making the same general statements as others do. I've ran into many people who agree with me.

Yes you do.  You know how he feels about pit bulls just like I know how some random person feels about Jesus.  In point of fact, I don't know.  But I know that there's a high ---smurfing--- potentiality for strong feelings on the subject and, more likely than not, the person disagrees with me.  Same thing in your case.  You don't KNOW by looking at the guy whether he thinks pit bulls can only sustain themselves by eating children, but you KNOW that he probably does feel this way because you've talked to a million people about it.  Next to glass and the NY Giants, you've made defending pit bulls your life's work.  You know how people feel about them.

There are a lot of atheists in America.  A good 10-15% of the population is atheist.  It's perfectly reasonable to think that I could just start talking ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on Jesus and there's a decent chance that the person I'm talking to will also be atheist.  But I KNOW that there's a damned good chance that I ain't talking to an atheist, just like you know that the person probably thinks pit bulls are dangerous and should not be owned and bred.

[tommy]

I'm not qualified to make that assumption and neither are you. I don't know who thinks guns should be banned or who thinks what about anything until i start talking about it, do i? You can't be serious.

I may be able to tell what is a sensitive subject or not but that's no reason to NOT talk to people about it.

[shmokes]

This is not a believe of whether there is a god or not. This is a fact that some people cannot grasp the idea that a well trained dog is not dangerous no matter the breed.

That's beside the point.  First off, that's ---smurfing--- ridiculous; but I'll get back to that.  It doesn't matter how stupid they are.  Some people can't grasp the fact that hydrogenated oils are killing them, but I'm not going to go into a customer's home and start an argument with them about their margarine. 

Secondly, Tommy, I agree that people act ridiculous about pit bulls, but no less ridiculous than you act about them.  They're all about overreacting and screaming about the sky is falling, but you're at the other end of the spectrum sticking your head in the sand.  Pit bulls are far more dangerous than other breeds of dogs.  A well trained pit bull is more dangerous than a well trained chihuahua and a poorly trained pit bull is more dangerous than a poorly trained chihuahua.  I have two cats.  I've had both since they were kittens and both have had virtually the same life.  One, however, is aggressive, while the other is a total fraidy-cat.  Animals have personalities that go beyond training.  If you are going to run into a bear in the wilderness, you WANT it to be a black bear.  Grizzly bears and Polar bears are far more dangerous.  They attack people more often.  Their attacks are more often deadly.  They are objectively more dangerous than black bears.

Perhaps you would have more success in your quest to get people to be more realistic in the way the view pit bulls if you, yourself, were realistic about it.

[shmokes]

I'm not qualified to make that assumption and neither are you. I don't know who thinks guns should be banned or who thinks what about anything until i start talking about it, do i? You can't be serious.

I may be able to tell what is a sensitive subject or not but that's no reason to NOT talk to people about it.

Yes it is.  Of course it is.  Its your customer in a business setting.  You make small talk.  You talk about things that will make them happy.  Don't tell them how you feel about abortion, jesus, pit bulls, illegal immigration, etc.  You're a fool to push those hot buttons.  But at the very least, don't push the hot buttons and then ---smurfette--- about it like you're a victim. 

[tommy]

Dude, this was a setting to where a pit bull conversation was warrented as in home safety and what a person could do to protect them self. Don't make this as if i went around knocking on random doors trying to get people to believe what i do for no reason.

[tommy]

 Pit bulls are far more dangerous than other breeds of dogs.  A well trained pit bull is more dangerous than a well trained chihuahua and a poorly trained pit bull is more dangerous than a poorly trained chihuahua.

Yes. And a 357 magnum has the potential to kill you "more" than a 22 cal bullet does. Does that change the fact that there has to be a will to kill for any of that to matter? Does that change the fact that if you give a "nice person" holding either of those guns that it won't matter what caliber the gun is because he won't be shooting anyone?

[mccoy178]

Pitbulls are the antichrist.  I saw them in the original GhostBusters and they were as dangerous there as they are in society.  To heck with building a wall between here and Mexico, I say open a kennel!

[shmokes]

Yes. And a 357 magnum has the potential to kill you "more" than a 22 cal bullet does. Does that change the fact that there has to be a will to kill for any of that to matter? Does that change the fact that if you give a "nice person" holding either of those guns that it won't matter what caliber the gun is because he won't be shooting anyone?

Beside the point Tommy.  Beside the point.  I don't care what your views are.  I don't care whether you're right or wrong.  Frankly, I don't even care whether you're an ---uvula--- to your customers.  But it's bad business.  No way around that.

By the way, a .357 magnum is an inanimate object.  You probably know that, but based on your arguments it's hard to be sure.

[Bones]

Pitbulls are as unpredictable and dangerous as the damn fools who choose to own this type of animal. They were bred for a purpose and ultimately genetic programming dictates behaviour.

[patrickl]

I really don't see how people still don't understand that pitbulls should all be kept in cages (or killed).

They banned those dogs overhere luckily, but before that it was like almost every month there was a pitbull mauling a kid. Owner says "Yeah the dog was always sweet as a puppy. It really loved kids. We had no idea it would all of a sudden grab that kids face. Must have been a sudden move from the kid or something that set him off". Or there was "I know it's a dangerous dog, but I always keep it in house. Until that one time when I didn't lock the front door and it grabbed that kid."

[jbox]

You guys are missing the obvious! If a gun makes you safer, and a dog makes you safer, then the safestest thing in the whole wide world???

[CheffoJeffo]

This is a fact that some people cannot grasp the idea that a well trained dog is not dangerous no matter the breed.

tommy -- the main reason that people can't take what you say seriously is that you say so many ridiculous things while trying to make some lesset lesser point. Pretty much every dog is dangerous, even if well-trained. Consider the situation where the animal is frightened -- instinct takes over. Or stung by an insect. You know how you react when you see a pretty girl ? That's instinct and it ain't ever completely overcome by training.

As for guard dogs, my suggestion is to do what my parents did when they lived in Brazil -- the neighbours had Rottweilers, Mastiffs, Great Danes, Dobermans and Shepherds -- my parents got a pair of Old English sheepdogs (named Simon and Garfunkel). Worked like a charm.

 

[ChadTower]

Why would you bait a customer by suggesting they get a pit bull, when you know what the likely response is going to be?  That's a customer, for christ's sake! <...>

Be a professional Tommy.  Real life is not the internet.  <...>

That was totally my thoughts on the subject too... I'd seriously consider firing an employee who was in a customer's home and was starting arguments with customers on subjects completely unrelated to the job.  You're supposed to make the customers feel happy you were there and feel encouraged to invite you back for more work.  Anything less than that is hurting your employer.

I may be able to tell what is a sensitive subject or not but that's no reason to NOT talk to people about it.

Yes there is a very good reason not to talk about it.  You're at a customer site performing work duties.  You don't start conversations about potentially volatile topics.  If they try to, you slide the topic to something safer.  That is professionalism.  You're not there for a social call.  Do the job, be pleasant, make sure they are happy with the work, and then get out.

[missioncontrol]

oh geeez not this crap again

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=72171.0


Tommy,

you are NOT single handily going to change everyone's view of pitbulls. Maybe you need to find a pitbull owners forum if you want people to share your opinions about these dogs.

First off you are going to a customers house. You are baiting these customers with your responses and then get all upset when they don't share your views. WTF are you on some type of crusade or something?

These dogs stereotyped as dangerous, but hey, if you want one and think you are responsible enough... then fine keep your dog indoors and realize that opinions differ and everyone is not going to share your beliefs. From some of the threads you start, I almost think the only reason you have a pit is because of the controversy surrounding them. Your responses read as if you view yourself as having superiority because you think you have a handle on your dog. Maybe you do, but that doesn't mean everyone does and there are plenty of owners who don't.

[rhoelsch]

You can't ignore the fact that many dogs species exist because they are bred to enhance certain traits -- a purebred hound, for example, will always have a greater innate propensity to become an effective hunting dog than, say, a Shih Tsu.  It ain't like having a machine gun in the house but never buying any bullets... dogs will always come with their own ammo... Pit Bulls are, along with some other breeds, very effective killers -- you can't train out genetics. I have a 1 year old and a Golden Retriever. My dog could easily kill my son, I won't pretend like it isn't a possibility. But given a choice between him and a dog that's been BRED to be an efficent biter, guess which one I let my boy live with? All things considered equal, bad trainer, good trainer whatever, the breed & inborn traits become the variable. I don't think the Roy Horn case is really that far off, and man, could that guy train a tiger!

[ChadTower]

The key difference is that if your dog tried to kill your son - and it is an independent living thing, so it could happen - you could stop a golden retriever.  It wouldn't be all that hard if you committed to doing it and the dog wouldn't have done critical damage by then.

A pit bull would kill the kid and you if you didn't have a serious weapon.  At a minimum it would severely injure at least one of you.  You would have no chance of stopping it with your bare hands.

[patrickl]

I saw a clip of a pitbull who attacked it's owner and would not let go of his arm. The police was already on the scene and tried shooting the dog, but it still would not release. Looked like it took 5 shots. At least it attacked it's owner (which apparently they often seem to do), but still.

[ChadTower]

A pit bull's jaw sometimes will not release even when it passes out - you can kill the dog and the jaws are still clamped shut.  A lot of myths say they even have a "lock" so the dog is unable to release but that's not true - the pit bulls are just that fierce when they attack.  Some of them you can beat to death with a bat and the jaws are still clamped on something.  Pepper spray doesn't work either.  They just continue the attack blind and up the aggression.  They are not immune to pepper spray, though, as some will tell you.

[lharles]

A story from my childhood...

We had a 'purebred' pit bull when I was a kid, (my father used to tell EVERY-freakin'-body that...'he's a purebred, got papers...blah, blah, blah').

I was NEVER mean to this dog and it was always very affectionate and playful.  My father was the sort of guy who was a non-discriminating abuser so he had a tendency to kick the dog around when he thought it did something out of line.

Anyway, this dog would obey my every command and was never anything but protective of me. 

Then, after having him for probably five years, I was feeding him while my father was away and I was looking after my sister and step-brother...and spilled the food.

He began growling as I was picking up the food and putting it into his dish.  I didn't think too much of it, thinking he was just wanting me to be done with it so he could eat.  At the point where I was nearly done and just grabbing individual pieces of dog food, no longer handfuls, he lunged and bit my left forearm.  I was TERRIFIED.  I'd knew very well what the dog could do if it locked it's jaw, (having heard my father blather on about it endlessly for years), and I don't know if it was adrenalin, sheer terror, or what but I threw that dog across the room.  His bite had punctured my left forearm in four places.

For the next hour, I basically had a strategic stand off with the dog in the living room, dining room, and kitchen of the house.  I was in a situation where the dog was F-IN' PISSED, growling, and snapping.  We circled one another that whole time, while I held him off with whatever objects I could grab a hold of, and I had my sister and step-brother lock themselves in the bathroom.  I finally managed to get the dog locked in the back bedroom of the house - mine - and called my father.

I went to the doctor, got shots, a couple dozen stitches, and a completely different interaction with the dog after that.  I only lived at home for about two more years and I never really tried to bond with the dog again after that.

My father wouldn't even entertain getting rid of his 'purebred' pit bull, so that was that.

I don't know if this directly applies to what you folks are getting at but I know that I would gladly own a pit bull again today as long as some turd wasn't kicking the crap out of it all the time negating any positive interactions and/or training the dog might get from someone else.  I believe as much as can be believed that the reason the dog behaved that way was because of the abuse it took and NOT because of anything having to do with me.

...hopefully that all makes sense. 

[ChadTower]

That instance was probably the dog reacting to something that had happened in that situation in the past - your father kicking it for making a mess of the food, most likely.  The dog was expecting it to happen again, but your father is the alpha male and not you, so it didn't feel the need to wait around to be kicked by you.  Since a pit bull doesn't have much of a tendency to clam down once aggravated, it took a while to get it confined.  Trust me on this... the dog didn't want to fight you.  If it had you'd be dead.  It just didn't want to be hurt by you.  Sounds like it gave you ample warning before it bit you and you misinterpreted it.

[CCM]

umm, maybe you should just keep your mouth shut and do your job.  The last thing I want when I have any kind of repairman in my house is for him to start an argument or try to force his views/beliefs on me. 

You really should be more professional, you are out there representing your company and I'm sure they wouldn't be very happy with you starting ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- with their customers.

Do we really need another pit bull thread???  You didn't get enough arguing out of the other one that you had to go and start this one?

[lharles]

That instance was probably the dog reacting to something that had happened in that situation in the past - your father kicking it for making a mess of the food, most likely.  The dog was expecting it to happen again, but your father is the alpha male and not you, so it didn't feel the need to wait around to be kicked by you.  Since a pit bull doesn't have much of a tendency to clam down once aggravated, it took a while to get it confined.  Trust me on this... the dog didn't want to fight you.  If it had you'd be dead.  It just didn't want to be hurt by you.  Sounds like it gave you ample warning before it bit you and you misinterpreted it.

Perhaps it was a response based on past experience, I can't say due to the fact that I don't speak dog or read minds.

I didn't and don't believe the dog wanted to fight me either.

I guess what I was illustrating was that if you treat a dog like crap, it will probably end up acting crappy.

Did it give me warning...?  Well, the growling that he did was something that did occur on many occasions as food was being given so it's hard to think that what had been standard behavior would escalate to an attack.  I didn't mention that it was something he often did in the narrative I gave before though so that certainly might have seemed like a warning.

I can tell you that the behavior the dog displayed prior to biting me didn't come across as a warning at all based on the past I'd had with it.

Sadly, the dog continued to be mistreated for the remainder of it's life after I moved out. 

It wound up becoming more and more aggressive and was eventually put to sleep after attacking my father.  At least he got that part right. 

[ChadTower]

Growling, when not in the middle of physical play, is almost always a warning.  If the dog had growled before while being fed then it was probably warning you on those occasions, too.  Why it chose this instance to bite and not others is something you can't get from the dog's mind.  Sounds like the dog was generally afraid of being kicked while being fed.  Maybe your father used to kick it away from the bowl while refilling?  That would definitely cause that sort of behaviour - a negative association with the act of refilling the food dish.  Or maybe just one bad instance - one kick that really hurt the dog while refilling the dish.  Dogs, for the most part, are stimuli/response creatures, and if they have a consistent behaviour with a specific trigger like this there is a reason for it.

[Ed_McCarron]

This is not a believe of whether there is a god or not. This is a fact that some people cannot grasp the idea that a well trained dog is not dangerous no matter the breed.

I disagree.  All dogs, all animals, as a matter of fact probably everything with a brain is capable of being dangerous.

Now, that said, if I had a choice of animals I want biting me?  Pits are probably pretty far down the list, and I love dogs.

Hell, my neighbors min-pin is more dangerous than my golden.  That little yapper has drawn blood on several occasions.

Again, that said, the golden is not beyond snapping if it feels threatened, or, more likely, startled.

I look at it like this.  Would I rather play russian roulette with five bullets or one?

[ChadTower]

My neighbors got a dog this summer - a very friendly mix of some sort of terrier/retriever.  They pay near zero attention to her and keep her in the fenced in backyard.  She loves to play - I reach over the fence and play with her all the time and she runs over whenever I'm out there hoping I'll chuck her ball around for a few minutes.  The reason I mention this is that I've never heard her make a sound.  Not a bark, not a growl, nothing whatsoever over several months.  Not even when playing hard tug of war (which she loves) - that's a game that a dog often growls over.  Could they have done something to her vocal cords?  It's not natural for an active dog to be this quiet.

[lharles]

Growling, when not in the middle of physical play, is almost always a warning.  If the dog had growled before while being fed then it was probably warning you on those occasions, too.  Why it chose this instance to bite and not others is something you can't get from the dog's mind.  Sounds like the dog was generally afraid of being kicked while being fed.  Maybe your father used to kick it away from the bowl while refilling?  That would definitely cause that sort of behaviour - a negative association with the act of refilling the food dish.  Or maybe just one bad instance - one kick that really hurt the dog while refilling the dish.  Dogs, for the most part, are stimuli/response creatures, and if they have a consistent behaviour with a specific trigger like this there is a reason for it.

Oy!  I understand how growling is typically supposed to be interpreted!    As for the 'stimuli/response', of course that's true.  Still, the only changed variable in the equation THAT day was the SPILLED food.  I had fed the dog in the same way at the same time for several years.  The attack at that point was simply unexpected but most likely completely  reasonable...you know as far as dog logic goes. 

Again though, my point is that it wasn't the type of dog that was the issue it was the treatment.  {See the 'crap/crappy' statement in my previous post...}

[billf]

My neighbors got a dog this summer - a very friendly mix of some sort of terrier/retriever.  They pay near zero attention to her and keep her in the fenced in backyard.  She loves to play - I reach over the fence and play with her all the time and she runs over whenever I'm out there hoping I'll chuck her ball around for a few minutes.  The reason I mention this is that I've never heard her make a sound.  Not a bark, not a growl, nothing whatsoever over several months.  Not even when playing hard tug of war (which she loves) - that's a game that a dog often growls over.  Could they have done something to her vocal cords?  It's not natural for an active dog to be this quiet.

My mother-in-law has two shelties.  She got them from a shelter I believe.  IIRC, both of the dogs were mistreated and my mother-in-law was contacted because she had had shelties in the past.  One of the dogs came "de-barked", which IIRC means the vocal chords were cut.  The dog still tries to bark, but it sounds kinda like the dog has laryngitis.  But it definitely still does make some noise.  And, for the record, my mother-in-law absolutely loves dogs and would never have done this to the dog; it came that way.

[ChadTower]

Can't say I've seen that done but it would make sense.  Pretty mean to do to an animal, especially since they also have a little yip dog that barks at the bigger one.

Yrm0m has shelter shelties.

[Ed_McCarron]

Anyone up for donations to have Tommy de-barked?

Oh, wait, that wouldn't keep him from typing.

Nevermind.

 

[ChadTower]

Oh, wait, that wouldn't keep him from typing.

Well, he does work with glass...


Yes, that's a joke.