Some marines got a little gun happy...

[Crazy Cooter]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6496898/
It seems like we wounded them, left, and came back 24 hours to finish them off.  What's up with that?  Shouldn't we take them out of there right away?  This is messed up.


From the article (a news reporter was there):

[DYNAGOD]

you werent there,you didnt see what happened and you dont know what happened..

support your troops or die...

[Dexter]

support your troops or die...

So different fromthe choice the people of Falluja had. Leave and have your house looted and probably become homeless or stay and risk getting blown to pieces. Give them liberty or give them death.

Thank God so many WMDs were found to vindicate the slaughter of innocents  

[DYNAGOD]

all that Marine saw was a combatant who should have been dead.. for all he knew that soldier could have been laying on a pistol or worse a grenade..
you cant just turn off the killer instinct at the flick of a switch..
and too exacerbate the situation,that soldier had been shot in the face the day earlier and had just moments before struggled to stay alive in a 12 hour long firefight..  so i think a little slack is due.
i cant speak for you, but after ive been shot in the face and in an intense firefight for 12 hours non-stop fighting for my life i dont exactly have a real humanitarian feeling welling up on the inside..

[Harry Potter]

i cant speak for you, but after ive been shot in the face and in an intense firefight for 12 hours non-stop fighting for my life i dont exactly have a real humanitarian feeling welling up on the inside..

That's not the most sound reasoning. If the soldiers are this undiciplined, they don't belong in the army. I listened to the clip and dion't hear ANY order resembling 'Shoot the m------er'.

Yes, we don't understand the situation fully but from what we saw, it didn't exactly look humanitarian.

Oh and if you WERE shot in the face, there wouldn't be any feeling welling up inside.  

[Dexter]

all that Marine saw was a combatant who should have been dead.. for all he knew that soldier could have been laying on a pistol or worse a grenade..

The same reasoning as Saddam could have had WMDs and could have launched them within 45 minutes. Here we are 18 months later with 100,000 innocents dead. Thats a lot of blood for the sake of hypothesis.

Could have doesn't cut the mustard.

LONDON (Reuters) - A television pool report by U.S. network NBC said on Monday that a U.S. Marine had shot dead an unarmed and wounded Iraqi prisoner in a mosque in Falluja.

Kevin sites the reporter who witnessed the killing said the shot prisoner "did not appear to be armed or threatening in any way."

On the video: marine says "He's fu

[DYNAGOD]

The same reasoning as Saddam could have had WMDs and could have launched them within 45 minutes. Here we are 18 months later with 100,000 innocents dead. Thats a lot of blood for the sake of hypothesis.

Could have doesn't cut the mustard.

both yours and my feelings on the war are irrelevant in this discussion so please lets not fog this discussion with such matters.
i agree with you that the wars a farce, so your preaching to the choir..

 the fact of the matter is that soldiers are there regardless, they are dying regardless, and people are tying to kill them and when it comes down to a you or me situation i would take no chances as he did.

"In a combat infantry soldier's training, he is always taught that his enemy is at his most dangerous when he is severely wounded."
If the injured man makes even the slightest move, "in my estimation they would be justified in shooting him."

the bottom line is that US soldier is still alive and thats all that matters to me.
thats what it is to be a patriot..undying, unwaivering support even inthe face of opposition. you dont have to like the justification for the war to support your fellow brothers..
6 months ago that kid was probobly 17 years old ,skipping school sitting on his couch playing Xbox.now suddenly hes thrust into the middle of an all out warzone figthing for his very life..most of these kids arent mature enough to understand the sensitivity you want them to emote on the battlefield. they just want to stay the f%ck alive,at ANY cost..
give them a break..

[Dexter]

the fact of the matter is that soldiers are there regardless, they are dying regardless, and people are tying to kill them and when it comes down to a you or me situation i would take no chances as he did.

Soldiers of any invading force are always 'there regardless' where they shouldn't be, be it Poland or Iraq.

To the best of my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong) the marine in question is 22, well over the age of responsibility for their actions and able to tell right from wrong. If he cannot operate within the boundaries of the Geneva convention he has no business carrying a lethal weapon and making life and death decisions regarding another human life.

Under the Geneva convention you are obliged to care for injured enemies once the area is secured and then their safety is your responsibility from then on. But I suppose you can't ask somebody to fight justly in an unjust war.

[Harry Potter]

Nicely outlined and boxed.

[rchadd]

the USA way to win hearts and minds...blow their heads off

[DYNAGOD]

those are some pretty easy things to say from the comfort of your computer desk..
im curious how you would feel and react after 24 months in a militarized zone..

im officially out of this thread...to much Anti-American sentiment for my liking in here.. i dont want to hate any of you,so ill be the better man and walk away..
if saint holds tru to his word on the political post he will delete this thread...

[Dexter]

im officially out of this thread...to much Anti-American sentiment for my liking in here.. i dont want to hate any of you,so ill be the better man and walk away..
if saint holds tru to his word on the political post he will delete this thread...

I assure you I am far from anti-american, merely anti-genocide.

[Sephroth57]

im with Dyna, you dont know how its like out there. Soldiers are fighting so we can sit here on our computers in peace and blabber about whatever. I support them and if they wanna shoot some dying sand ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- on the ground then go ahead, i would do the same thing

[JackTucky]

I assure you I am far from anti-american, merely anti-genocide.

 

Art

[locash]

If complying with the Geneva Convention is anti-American someone should tell this guy:

"Let me make it perfectly clear: We follow the law of armed conflict and we hold ourselves to high standard of accountability," Marine Lt. Gen. John F. Sattler

[Dexter]

im with Dyna, you dont know how its like out there. Soldiers are fighting so we can sit here on our computers in peace and blabber about whatever. I support them and if they wanna shoot some dying sand <auto-censored> on the ground then go ahead, i would do the same thing

So, even though Iraq NEVER attacked america, had NO wmds and NO links to Al Quaida or 9/11, in fact was one of the few countries in the world without an al quaida cell before the invasion, you still reckon that atrocities committed in Iraq is necessary to protect your way of life??

[Rotoman]

im officially out of this thread...to much Anti-American sentiment for my liking in here.. i dont want to hate any of you,so ill be the better man and walk away..
if saint holds tru to his word on the political post he will delete this thread...

I assure you I am far from anti-american, merely anti-genocide.

This kind of comment is uninformed, disingenuous and the worst form of Monday Morning Quarterbacking.  To equate the

[fredster]

Dexter is the reason we need the draft back.

[Zakk]

I agree that this one soldier's actions may be questionable, and it states he has been taken off active duty to look into the situation, and he may be criminally charged.  That's proper process. However I feel it is harldy fair to condemn the actions of the majority of fighting men and women in Iraq, who are simply doing what their country asks of them, to the best of their abilities.  Question the guys giving orders, point fingers at the administration if you like, but don't question the grunts, since they put their lives on the line day in and day out.  Hats off to those who have fallen, and those who are still fighting.  I'd be proud to shake the hand of any of these people.  Wars are a fact of life.  
  Until I've been there and lived it, I won't pretend to know enough about the situation to point fingers.  Let's all just hope for a swift conclusion to the conflict and to eventual peace in the whole of the middle east.  

[Sephroth57]

you know, the draft isnt implemented right now, but say it was and  I was drafted. I dont want to be over there, it would suck and Im not cut out for that kind of stuff. But if i had to be there youd better believe id be taking no chances with that kind of situation, if someone made a sudden movement toward me while im just walking down the iraq streets youd better belive id have that gun pointed at their face. worst case scenario you kill a so-called "innocent", (meanwhile half the civillians there probably work with terrorists and do suicide attacks on US soldiers for their gods name), and you get taken off duty and get some kind of minor reprocussions. No marine sargent is gonna be super pissed at you cause you thought u had to defend yourself and shot someone, they know how it is too.

[Dexter]

Dexter is the reason we need the draft back.

LOL Brilliant!

I won't hold my breath for the US to invade Ireland, we've no oil (we've a lot of turf mind, can you run SUV's on turf??)

Just remember the compassion shown to a wounded Lyndie England by the sand ******* as one poster put it, then edited.

[Hoagie_one]

I dont believe that the US is in Iraq for The US citizens safety.

I also dont agree that we should be held to a higher authority by the world just because we are teh US.  The scutiny is maddening.

However, just because i dont think the rest of the world should scutinize our actions, doesn mean that we should hold ourselves to a higher authority.  It always looks good in teh end to be the better man...just dont get killed doing it.  Which somehow may justify the killing.

I'm just babbling, sorry...the whole Iraq, and Bush mess is aggrivating.

[Crazy Cooter]

Wow, I didn't expect this many replies so soon.  It's not a political post really, so as long as we "discuss" rather than "argue" it should be fine.

I wasn't there, but that reporter was.  He was right there.  I think it's time we rotate some of these guys off the frontline.  At no time should we be killing people indiscriminately.  Why weren't those prisoners removed earlier?  They were wounded and should have been given medical attention.  Instead, we came back later and killed them.  That isn't right.  I really think we're in over our heads.  Is this really what we want to be promoting?  If our guys over there are getting this used to killing, maybe a draft is what we need.

Dynagod, It's not "anti-American" to care about people.  Nor is it "not supporting our troops".  Quite the contrary.  These guys need a break.  Do you think that the soldier who shoot the guy at point blank range would have ever thought he would have to do that?  I doubt it.  I think he should have some remorse though.  If he doesn't than look at what we've done to him.  Why do you think police get desk time after they've been involved in a shooting?  It's to give them time to recoup and come to terms with themselves.  In this situation, we've got those guys out there on the frontline for waaay too long.  They're becoming numb to the whole situation of war.


"I support them and if they wanna shoot some dying sand on the ground "
That's some harsh words.  Also the most racist thing I've seen on this site.  Please edit your post so we can discuss this like adults.

[Rotoman]

Wow, I didn't expect this many replies so soon.  It's not a political post really, so as long as we "discuss" rather than "argue" it should be fine.

I wasn't there, but that reporter was.  He was right there.  I think it's time we rotate some of these guys off the frontline.  At no time should we be killing people indiscriminately.  Why weren't those prisoners removed earlier?  They were wounded and should have been given medical attention.  Instead, we came back later and killed them.  That isn't right.  I really think we're in over our heads.  Is this really what we want to be promoting?  If our guys over there are getting this used to killing, maybe a draft is what we need.

Dynagod, It's not "anti-American" to care about people.  Nor is it "not supporting our troops".  Quite the contrary.  These guys need a break.  Do you think that the soldier who shoot the guy at point blank range would have ever thought he would have to do that?  I doubt it.  I think he should have some remorse though.  If he doesn't than look at what we've done to him.  Why do you think police get desk time after they've been involved in a shooting?  It's to give them time to recoup and come to terms with themselves.  In this situation, we've got those guys out there on the frontline for waaay too long.  They're becoming numb to the whole situation of war.


"I support them and if they wanna shoot some dying sand on the ground "
That's some harsh words.  Also the most racist thing I've seen on this site.  Please edit your post so we can discuss this like adults.

I agree that quote was way out of line.

I still think you're making some assuptions.  I also don't think you can equate a police shooting to combat.  Definitely not the same thing.  And the logistics of rotating every marine, soldier and airman to a desk after they've shot someone would be hard to comprehend and impossible to do, not to mention illogical.   I don't see anywhere where it states how long this Marine had been in zone...could have been 5 months or 5 days...and I can certainly imagine circumstances that even in 5 days might have resulted in the same action being taken.

The reporter (according to ABC News) stated that these wounded men HAD been given medical attention the day prior.  I can't even begin to guess why they hadn't been detained and evacuated although I'm not surprised.

As I stated previously I think you have to step back and look at more than the '10 second' video version that we get via the news.  Viewed with blinders on I can definitely see how reprehensible this can look.  But having served as a Marine I can tell you its rarely that cut and dried.  

For example, executing an enemy combatant that is kneeling with his hands raised shouting "God is Great!" is bad.  However, if the previous 5 times you've attempted to detain an individual doing the exact same action they've tossed a grenade at you right after their shout, you probably have good reason to be a bit itchy on the trigger.  And if it so happens that the imbedded reporter captures that 5th one on video you're gonna look pretty bad regardless.  Again, I'm not justifying the action, far from it, I'm just saying we don't know enough to make that judgement.

[RacerX]

I don't know what the exact situation was here, and I don't condone shooting a defenseless wounded person.

But that being said, I think it is pretty lame that some people are so ready to condemn this soldier without knowing everything he's been through or everything that happened in this situation.

None of us knows what this guy was going through or what his mindset was at the time unless we have been through combat.  I have not, but I have seen how my grandfather was affected by World War II.  His hands have shaken ever since just like Tom Hanks' character's did in the movie "Saving Private Ryan".  And the war ended almost 60 years ago.

What I'm trying to say is that war changes a person.  So please think about that before you post.

P.S. - I don't have anyone here specifically in mind when I say this, I just want every one of us to think.  

Thanks for reading...  

[Dexter]

Wars are a fact of life.  

Even this unnecessary war? The only fact is that it never had to happen and wouldn't made the tiniest bit of difference to 'homeland security' if it didn't in the first place. War has to be the absolute last resort after all other avenues have been exhausted. Collateral damage and atrocities may be a sad fact of war but to wage it pre-emptively you are making innocent women and children die in your name.

[Grasshopper]

Hmm, whilst I accept that different standards of behaviour should apply in the heat of battle, it's very difficult on the evidence presented to give this marine the benefit of the doubt.

Unfortunately, war has a tendency to corrupt individuals and to corrupt nations. We've seen this throughout history. That is one of the reasons why war should always be considered a last resort.

Was it really worth killing 100,000 civillians, destroying Iraq's already fragile infrastructure, and undermining the UN and the concept of international law to remove an ageing dictator who was being contained?

Iraq is beginning to look more and more like Vietnam every day.

It's all very sad.

[Dexter]

It's all very sad.

Amen, something we can all agree on. May all of them, soldiers, fighters and civilians rest in peace.

[DrewKaree]

I agree that this one soldier's actions may be questionable, and it states he has been taken off active duty to look into the situation, and he may be criminally charged.  That's proper process. However I feel it is harldy fair to condemn the actions of the majority of fighting men and women in Iraq, who are simply doing what their country asks of them, to the best of their abilities.  Question the guys giving orders, point fingers at the administration if you like, but don't question the grunts, since they put their lives on the line day in and day out.  Hats off to those who have fallen, and those who are still fighting.  I'd be proud to shake the hand of any of these people.  Wars are a fact of life.  
  Until I've been there and lived it, I won't pretend to know enough about the situation to point fingers.  Let's all just hope for a swift conclusion to the conflict and to eventual peace in the whole of the middle east.  

Well said, Zakk.  Thank you.

[Crazy Cooter]

The police reference was just as an example to show that it's accepted that killing someone does have an effect on an individual.  I didn't mean that we should be rotating them out each day or anything, I meant that we shouldn't be making those guys be on the line for extended periods.  Or even in Iraq for the length of time that they currently are.  This is the kind of effect that it has.  It desensitizes troops until they just stop thinking.  That leads to people on both sides getting killed.  That's why I've screamed about the "backdoor draft" and why I say we're in over our head.  We shouldn't be spreading our military so thin that we can't protect our troops both physically (equipment) and mentally (adequate leave).

I would be interested to know how long that soldier was on the line.  If anyone finds that out, please post it.  

"...point fingers at the administration if you like"
Heheh believe me, I've done my fair share of that.

[locash]

ok, the guys have now been charged by the us military with murder

Where are you getting this information?  I can't find any mention of this on CNN, Fox News or the BBC.

[Zakk]

Wars are a fact of life.  

Even this unnecessary war? The only fact is that it never had to happen and wouldn't made the tiniest bit of difference to 'homeland security' if it didn't in the first place. War has to be the absolute last resort after all other avenues have been exhausted. Collateral damage and atrocities may be a sad fact of war but to wage it pre-emptively you are making innocent women and children die in your name.

If that's all you got out of my post, then there's no real reason to respond.  I'll take  a small snippet out of your reply and anser to that:

 

innocent women and children die in your name.

Man, you want innocent women and children to die in your name?  That seems a little harsh.  Get a grip on yourself, you ego maniac!

[Crazy Cooter]

I read that legal "experts" are saying that it is questionable whether the wounded were prisoners or not.  I don't get it.  We shot and wounded them on Friday.  Then set them free?  So we've got guys in Guantanamo that haven't been charged, but we "apparently" are setting enemy soldiers free.

So this is the timeline that I've figured out, feel free to add/change it:

Friday:
1- Shot & wounded (minor) the enemy soldiers.
2- Treated the soldiers we just wounded.
3- Walked away.
Saturday:
1- Shot & wounded (severely) the same enemy soldiers.
2- Brought in the media.
3- Shot one of them again (killed him).

Who is supposed to take these guys into custody?  Where were they?  It just doesn't make any sense to be fighting the same people (up to three times depending how you look at this instance).

[Zakk]

Well said, Zakk.  Thank you.

Heh, I'm probably still more Democrat than Republican, but I'll never EVER take it out on the service men and women.  To give life for love of country (hey, these people volunteered! ) is so awesome that it leaves me speechless.  

[Dexter]

Man, you want innocent women and children to die in your name?  That seems a little harsh.  Get a grip on yourself, you ego maniac!

!
Is there a darwin award for reading posts wrong? If you're going to use petty name calling get your facts straight. I am not american. I am not anti-american. I do not live in america. I did not vote the bush administration back in. No innocent women and children are dying in my name.

Ego-maniac? Because I would have a problem wth 100,000 unnecessary deaths in the name of my safety?? If this is your definition of an ego-maniac then guilty as charged. At least I can't be called unpatriotic.

Heh, I'm probably still more Democrat than Republican, but I'll never EVER take it out on the service men and women.  To give life for love of country (hey, these people volunteered! ) is so awesome that it leaves me speechless.  

Then I hope you also respect the 'insurgents', even if you don't like them, for also making the ultimate sacrifice while resisting an invading force. Fighting for THEIR beliefs and THEIR country.

[teef two]

1. Reporter was there.
2. You only get shown on TV what the station wants to show you.
3. We cannot possibly know the hell that young soldier went through in the hours before the incident, we cannot even come close to imagining it.
4. There had, apparently, been previous incidents where bodies had been booby-trapped.

Now I personally think that this war is not justified and I'll not discuss that here. However you have to support your armed forces otherwise when you really need them, they may not care enough.

The Geneva convention is there for a reason but sometimes the rules are going to be broken. I've always thought that having rules for warfare was slightly ridiculous, not from a humanitarian point of view but jst the idea that it's practicable. But the majority of the time it works.

In some cases these things are going to happen. It's a battlefield, people are being killed left, right and centre. Soldiers will be pumped up and alert. Discipline and protecting your fellow soldier are paramount. Most importantly a dead enemy can't harm you. What do we really expect to happen in a war?

[Dexter]

To equate the

[Rotoman]

To equate the

[Dexter]

btw, you'll notice I've been registered on this board for a couple months but frankly I'm such a noob at this stuff I haven't had anything worthwhile from a BYOAC point of view to post.  Hopefully I will very soon but right now I'm just collecting information.

Cool, then I look forward to your contribution and hopefully can help you out with any questions you have. Due to the time difference between the US and where I am most questions posted that I can assist with are already answered by the time I read them! I've completed 3 cabs so far and have needed lots of pointers from the board. Don't be afraid to ask, I couldn't have done any building without the help of the guys here, we are all noobs at some stage!!

Of course theres no requirement to post first to the main forums but there has been members solely hammering the 'everything else' forum without having a project, contirbuting or asking questions about arcade related stuff.

By the way, welcome to the forums!

[patrickl]

A Dutch soldier shot a Iraqi looter in the back. Het was brought back to the Netherlands and tried in court. He was acquitted based on the theory that the soldier fired into the ground and the bullet riccochet of the groud into the back of the looter (i.e. it was meant as a warning shot). IIRC The Dutch justice department is going to appeal though.

Our military are angry over this because it creates insecurity for the troops. A soldier would like to know for sure if/when he's allowed to kill people in a warzone, but since they claim it's an accident ...

I saw the movie Black Hawk down. Of course it in no way gives you the real experience of how dreadful being in a war must be (with shots flying around everywhere and getting shot and such), but it does give a hint of how bad it must be.