More StarRoms copyright mumbo-jumbo

[JoyMonkey]

A friend of mine wants me to build him a cabinet with a few
games. He intends on putting it in a dirty little bar he runs with
a few friends and charging people to play (to cover the cost
of the machine).

If I were to buy roms from StarRoms in his name and put them
in a cab, could he then allow other people to play them? Does
it say in the StarRoms license anywhere that the roms are
intended for the purchasers use only?

Would everyone that touches the machine legally be required
to own a license for the roms?

Brain hurt not good  

[JoyMonkey]

Maybe I'd need to contact Atari directly and ask if I could buy a 'Public' license.

[paigeoliver]

Forget Starroms in that case. Their licenses are personal use only. Their license would be no more valid for coin op use than not having one at all.

Instead I would start buying up trashed boards on ebay and put them all in box in the bottom of the cabinet. Recent legislation has legitimatized this. With some luck you can find one seller with 20 or so dead boards, so you can get them all for one shipping cost.

[J_K_M_A_N]

Except for the fact that MAME is against being in the public for money making at all. Also, I think he would have problems with people putting money in at the wrong time or thinking that they could put money in on one game and using it in another game.

J_K_M_A_N

[JoyMonkey]

Except for the fact that MAME is against being in the public for money making at all. Also, I think he would have problems with people putting money in at the wrong time or thinking that they could put money in on one game and using it in another game.

I think the easiest way of setting it up is to not allow people to choose a
game, he could set it to one game and change it around himself from day
to day. That way there'd be no need for a front end too.

As far as using MAME for profit goes, I'm not sure if there's a way around it.
He's not looking to make money from it, he just wants it to pay for itself.
But once the quarters coming in have covered what he paid I guess he'd
need to set it up for free play. Or maybe use an emulator that coders didn't
bother writing a usage license for.

[paigeoliver]

With all due respect to the Mame team, and the Mame license.

#1. I don't see them suing anyone.

#2. All those 3 in 1, 6 in 1, and 8 in 1 jamma boards are MAME, and I have seen those on location. Those ARE a major commercial undertaking too (with NO license), not just a one-off machine in a bar that someone actually WANTS to try to make legitimate.

#3. I am also pretty darn certain that Ultracade largely stole the Mame source code.

[Lilwolf]

If hes looking for making it a money maker... then don't do it.

Its just rude to the mame team... other then it's illegal.

But I don't think they have any problem with putting a free machine in areas like kids centers and such.  The bar might be pushing it (since it could be taken as your using it to increase beer sales)...

And another way to get legal licenses of roms.  Look at ebay and buy boards.  They go from 2 bucks for a broken board (but with roms on them) to 20 bucks for most classics.  Some are very very expensive (starwars, psmacman, ect) but the rest go for next to nothing.

[Sasquatch!]

#2. All those 3 in 1, 6 in 1, and 8 in 1 jamma boards are MAME, and I have seen those on location. Those ARE a major commercial undertaking too (with NO license), not just a one-off machine in a bar that someone actually WANTS to try to make legitimate.

They are??  Kooky.

JoyMonkey: Don't forget that he might need a license from the city in order to have the cabinet there

[paigeoliver]

#2. All those 3 in 1, 6 in 1, and 8 in 1 jamma boards are MAME, and I have seen those on location. Those ARE a major commercial undertaking too (with NO license), not just a one-off machine in a bar that someone actually WANTS to try to make legitimate.

They are??  Kooky.

JoyMonkey: Don't forget that he might need a license from the city in order to have the cabinet there

Those JAMMA multi-boards are Mame alright, The major seller of them asked on RGVAC awhile back what other games people wanted available on them.

As far as the city license goes, they don't inspect your machine, you just go in pay your money and get a sticker, I don't even think they ask what you are putting it on.

[Tiger-Heli]

As far as using MAME for profit goes, I'm not sure if there's a way around it.
He's not looking to make money from it, he just wants it to pay for itself.
But once the quarters coming in have covered what he paid I guess he'd
need to set it up for free play. Or maybe use an emulator that coders didn't
bother writing a usage license for.

Joymonkey,

You have about 3 issues going on here.  StarRoms I think says the ROMS are only licensed to the original purchaser, but it also talks about people wanting to sell the roms legitimately with completed cabinets, which would be your issue.  I mentioned this in a recent thread.

The second issue is charging people to play MAME.  First off, you are not in violation of the license if you build the machine and the person you give it to charges people to play it (not directly).  You would have to determine how you feel about that.

Next, the MAME license forbids making money off MAME or using MAME for profit.  IMHO, that means charging to use MAME.  It does not mean that if the operator charges to use MAME until he has made back enough money to pay for his machine, he has not violated the MAME license.

Next, this is largely a MAME issue.  If you were to do the same thing with retrocade, it probably violates the same copyright laws, but maybe not the license agreement.

Also, it is probably possible to set the machine up so no-one would know the machine is running MAME, depending whether you are worried about staying legal or not getting caught (there is a difference).

Finally, the MAME license is fairly vague on this area, the main items from MAME.txt are:

MAME is free. Its source code is free. Selling either is not allowed.
It could be argued that charging people to play asteroids is "selling MAME", but this would more likely apply to charging someone for a CD of MAME so they don't have to download it from the website.

and

The source code cannot be used in a commercial product without the written authorization of the authors. Use in non-commercial products is allowed, and indeed encouraged.  If you use portions of the MAME source code in your program, however, you must make the full source code freely available as well.  This is more of the issue.  Typically, this would be viewed as you can't steal the asteroids driver from MAME and sell it as "JoyMonkey's Asteroids Emulator".  But this can get into a very gray area.  SlikStik makes most of their money off people who want to use their products with MAME.  So does that mean that their items violate the license b/c using MAME with a SlikStik uses MAME in a commercial product.  (Does it still violate the license if they sell the product without knowing it will be used in MAME?)

Ultimately all these issues come down to how a judge interprets the copyright regulations.

[Tilzs]

Finally, the MAME license is fairly vague on this area, the main items from MAME.txt are:

MAME is free. Its source code is free. Selling either is not allowed.
It could be argued that charging people to play asteroids is "selling MAME", but this would more likely apply to charging someone for a CD of MAME so they don't have to download it from the website.

and

The source code cannot be used in a commercial product without the written authorization of the authors. Use in non-commercial products is allowed, and indeed encouraged.  If you use portions of the MAME source code in your program, however, you must make the full source code freely available as well.  This is more of the issue.  Typically, this would be viewed as you can't steal the asteroids driver from MAME and sell it as "JoyMonkey's Asteroids Emulator".  But this can get into a very gray area.  SlikStik makes most of their money off people who want to use their products with MAME.  So does that mean that their items violate the license b/c using MAME with a SlikStik uses MAME in a commercial product.  (Does it still violate the license if they sell the product without knowing it will be used in MAME?)

Ultimately all these issues come down to how a judge interprets the copyright regulations.

Not really to nitpick but I'm sure a good portion of the people on this board have ROMs and play ROMs for games in which they don't own the orginal with mame. I find it ironic that there is a discussion on what one can do with the Emulator when people really have no problem with 3k+roms on their machine.

[Oldskool]

Not really to nitpick but I'm sure a good portion of the people on this board have ROMs and play ROMs for games in which they don't own the orginal with mame.

Well said.

The hypocrisy on ROM issues is unbelievable at times.

[Tiger-Heli]

Not really to nitpick but I'm sure a good portion of the people on this board have ROMs and play ROMs for games in which they don't own the orginal with mame. I find it ironic that there is a discussion on what one can do with the Emulator when people really have no problem with 3k+roms on their machine.

Point taken, but my feeling is if you have 3K+ Roms on your machine, that's none of my business, whether or not you own the games.

If I have Roms on my machine which I don't legally own, I knew the risks when I put them there.

Now, if I am building a machine for someone else who has never heard of emulation before, I should at least inform him of the legality of what he is doing.  What he does after that, is up to him.

[SirPoonga]

Finally, the MAME license is fairly vague on this area, the main items from MAME.txt are:

MAME is free. Its source code is free. Selling either is not allowed.
It could be argued that charging people to play asteroids is "selling MAME", but this would more likely apply to charging someone for a CD of MAME so they don't have to download it from the website.

and

The source code cannot be used in a commercial product without the written authorization of the authors. Use in non-commercial products is allowed, and indeed encouraged.  If you use portions of the MAME source code in your program, however, you must make the full source code freely available as well.  This is more of the issue.  Typically, this would be viewed as you can't steal the asteroids driver from MAME and sell it as "JoyMonkey's Asteroids Emulator".  But this can get into a very gray area.  SlikStik makes most of their money off people who want to use their products with MAME.  So does that mean that their items violate the license b/c using MAME with a SlikStik uses MAME in a commercial product.  (Does it still violate the license if they sell the product without knowing it will be used in MAME?)

Ultimately all these issues come down to how a judge interprets the copyright regulations.

Not really to nitpick but I'm sure a good portion of the people on this board have ROMs and play ROMs for games in which they don't own the orginal with mame. I find it ironic that there is a discussion on what one can do with the Emulator when people really have no problem with 3k+roms on their machine.

But he isn't talking about playing legal roms, he is talking about how it is against mame's license to sell mame.

[Santoro]

Not really to nitpick but I'm sure a good portion of the people on this board have ROMs and play ROMs for games in which they don't own the orginal with mame.

Well said.

The hypocrisy on ROM issues is unbelievable at times.

I am one of the hypocrites of which you speak.    I think there is an order of magnitude difference between posessing and using the roms at home and selling/charging to use them (which I would never do.)

It analagous to the difference between copying a friends CD for personal use and copying his CD and selling hundereds of copies on a table in Times Square.  Clearly not the same thing. Neither is legal, but they are way, very different activities.

Or use Jaywalking vs Breaking & Entering as an example.

etc..

{edited for spelling as usual. }

[rampy]

#3. I am also pretty darn certain that Ultracade largely stole the Mame source code.

I don't believe this to be the case from what Ultracade developers have said (in this forum?) in the past... unless you have evidence otherwise, that isn't true (at  least that's my understanding from 3rd party accounts)

I do believe IIRC that they did consult with the mame team for some help/feedback or something but I might be making that tidbit up... *shrug*

rampy

[SuperRabbit0]

Not really to nitpick but I'm sure a good portion of the people on this board have ROMs and play ROMs for games in which they don't own the orginal with mame.

Well said.

The hypocrisy on ROM issues is unbelievable at times.

I am one of the hypocrites of which you speak.    I think there is an order of magnitude difference between posessing and using the roms at home (I do have a full set) and selling/charging to use them (which I would never do.)

It analagous to the difference between copying a friends CD for personal use and copying his CD and selling hundereds of copies on a table in Times Square.  Clearly not the same thing. Neither is legal, but they are way, very different activities.

Or use Jaywalking vs Breaking & Entering as an example.

etc..

{edited for spelling as usual. }

That analogy seems a little silly.  It seems the more correct analogy might be that he would burn the CD and *play* it for hundreds of others in his bar.  This guys not talking about mass-producing this machine.  I know a few people who own bars/restaurants and I don't think they'd feel too bad playing a burned CD now and then.

It seems to me that when software is developed which essntially requires users to violate the rights of hundreds of copyright holders, it should not be unexpected that occasionally some of your users might consider violating the terms of your license.

[CGRemakes]

Another thing I've wondered.  I legally own games such as Capcom Arcade Hits Volume 2, Atari Anniversary Edition and Namco Museum 3.  To my understanding, all these programs emulate the original arcade ROM images.  I personally prefer MAME to the software used by these programs, but they are not in a format that is recognized by MAME.  Would I legally be able to download the .zip ROM images to be used in MAME?

[Santoro]

That analogy seems a little silly.  It seems the more correct analogy might be that he would burn the CD and *play* it for hundreds of others in his bar.  This guys not talking about mass-producing this machine.  I know a few people who own bars/restaurants and I don't think they'd feel too bad playing a burned CD now and then.

OK, so even if my example is exaggerated - the point was, in a nutshell, all about profit.  To me profiting on the ROMs is crossing the line.

It's just my two cents, and many are going to disagree.  That's OK.

[Tilzs]

That analogy seems a little silly.  It seems the more correct analogy might be that he would burn the CD and *play* it for hundreds of others in his bar.  This guys not talking about mass-producing this machine.  I know a few people who own bars/restaurants and I don't think they'd feel too bad playing a burned CD now and then.

I'm sure if they got caught they'd feel bad.

I think it comes down to this. It's all illegal, if you get caught or if they enforce any of these laws is really a different matter. IMO if you are running a business however it's really in your best intrest to do everything legit. Chances small yes, but you really never know who is going to walk through your door and call you on doing something illegal.

Would someone walk into your house and bust you for haveing an arcade machine with roms on it? Maybe but probably not. Even if they did it's likely they'd already be busting you for something else (drugs, prostitution..etc) and just be looking for things to pile on.


If I was going to do a machine for a business I'd just buy the original boards off Ebay and use those or like said earlier, put them in the box and then run MAME (which still may be illegal). The cost of most of those boards are really peanuts for a business anyhow. If you used the orginal board, probably your biggest cost would involve labor when you decided to change games.

I may be wrong i haven't really read the MAME EULA that closely, but I think the selling clause has more to do with not useing the code or selling the software (copies) for profit. I could be wrong though and it might prevent you from even useing MAME at all in a business situation.

[Magnet_Eye]

Don't make profit!

How about the guy sets up a mame cab with whatever roms he wants in his bar. He sets it up to accept tokens, then keeps a bucket of them behind the bar. When people want to play he hands them out, say like 4 at a time or something. I think he would profit more from the gimmick of "FREE VIDEO GAMES" than the amount of quarters he would actually bring in.

Just a thought.

 

[Tilzs]

Don't make profit!

How about the guy sets up a mame cab with whatever roms he wants in his bar. He sets it up to accept tokens, then keeps a bucket of them behind the bar. When people want to play he hands them out, say like 4 at a time or something. I think he would profit more from the gimmick of "FREE VIDEO GAMES" than the amount of quarters he would actually bring in.

Just a thought.

 

Legally it doesn't matter all that much if he charges or not. It's a draw therefore he can still get in trouble.

Set up a giant arcade full of these things and have it all free, charge extra for pizza, pop etc and see if that doesn't raise some eyebrows.

[General Zod]

It usually ends up getting ruined by those who simply can't keep their mouth shut.

Never EVER tell someone that you ...

1. Steal Cable TV
2. Pirate Software & Music
3. Download Illegal Rom images and use them for commercial gain

We tend to forget that we're living in such a braggadocious society where people continuously foam at the mouth on their evil-doings and illegal no-no's.

I remember when HBO and Showtime were free on my satellite, that is until bars and hotels started charging extra for a service they also received ... for free.

Now I'm required to own a VideoCipher to enjoy my television experience. Only a small example of what can happen when someone decides to start earning a profit from a free service.

Someone, somewhere will take it away, all of it...and then there will be nothing left for any of us to enjoy. GREED is such a destructive device and has been the cause of many a good thing falling to the wayside ....

Just my .02 cents ... but why in the hell would you want to profit from MAME, let alone even set up your cab in a commercial atmosphere?


Sorry for the rambling !!

[Tiger-Heli]

Another thing I've wondered.  I legally own games such as Capcom Arcade Hits Volume 2, Atari Anniversary Edition and Namco Museum 3.  To my understanding, all these programs emulate the original arcade ROM images.  I personally prefer MAME to the software used by these programs, but they are not in a format that is recognized by MAME.  Would I legally be able to download the .zip ROM images to be used in MAME?

Short answer is, Probably not.  The bottom line is it comes down to what the copyright holders want to enforce.

Other than Robby Roto, StarRoms, and the Capcom games that ship with the HotRod, none of the arcade manufacturers have said "Use our roms for personal use whenever you want".

If you have an original arcade PCB, it's generally accepted that you could burn the rom images off of it to a file, and use them in MAME, although there are no copyright rules in place at the time the boards were sold, so this is not strictly permitted (or prohibited).

In the above case (owning the PCB), it's generally accepted that you could download the rom image and use it, although that's not specifically permitted either.

Having a game based on the rom image and developed by the manufacturer (Atari's Arcade Hits for the PC), might make you feel better about downloading the rom, and does send some money to the manufacturer, but isn't really legitimate.  Bad example - but similar to if I make a movie and put Coca-Cola billboards all through it and have the characters drinking Coke in many of the scenes, and then tell Coke, "I thought it was okay, becuause I've bought a case of Coke each week for the past 10 years".

If you download all the MAME roms for your personal use - I don't think the software police are going to raid your house and put you in jail.

There are individuals who will send you a complete set of MAME roms for the cost of the discs and postage, and so far they have been able to keep doing it.

If you start selling CD's with the MAME roms, it will raise some eyebrows, and not a good idea, b/c the individuals above do it for free, but I don't know of anyone being prosecuted for this, other than many websites that used to offer ROMS being hassled by the IDSA.  (And I'm not sure how much of this is legit, and how much that was the excuse to avoid having to support the bandwidth of having 4000 plus files being constantly downloaded).

I really don't see the "making money off of MAME" stuff in the official license, but I know it's kindof an informal agreement and that the MAME devs feel it's unsupported . . .

Regarding ROMS, personally I like PaigeOliver's example - He had a friend with a MAME cabinet stocked with ROMS.  In the bottom of the cabinet was a PCB from some game.  It was non working, had several chips missing, multiple solder patches, etc.  His friend's response "I don't know what game it was originally from, it doesn't have any name on the board anywhere, as far as I'm concerned, it's all of them."

[Tiger-Heli]

It usually ends up getting ruined by those who simply can't keep their mouth shut.

Never EVER tell someone that you ...

1. Steal Cable TV
2. Pirate Software & Music
3. Download Illegal Rom images and use them for commercial gain

We tend to forget that we're living in such a braggadocious society where people continuously foam at the mouth on their evil-doings and illegal no-no's.

I remember when HBO and Showtime were free on my satellite, that is until bars and hotels started charging extra for a service they also received ... for free.

Now I'm required to own a VideoCipher to enjoy my television experience. Only a small example of what can happen when someone decides to start earning a profit from a free service.

Someone, somewhere will take it away, all of it...and then there will be nothing left for any of us to enjoy. GREED is such a destructive device and has been the cause of many a good thing falling to the wayside ....

Just my .02 cents ... but why in the hell would you want to profit from MAME, let alone even set up your cab in a commercial atmosphere?


Sorry for the rambling !!

Well said!

[Santoro]

Regarding ROMS, personally I like PaigeOliver's example - He had a friend with a MAME cabinet stocked with ROMS.  In the bottom of the cabinet was a PCB from some game.  It was non working, had several chips missing, multiple solder patches, etc.  His friend's response "I don't know what game it was originally from, it doesn't have any name on the board anywhere, as far as I'm concerned, it's all of them."

I have to disagree with that approach.  That is a cute rationalization, but a mathematical impossibility.  1 ROM board can only represent one ROM.    To me this goes in the same file as the classic "pirate the software and it is OK as long as you delete it within 24 hours." fable.

Makes the person's conscience feel better, but is utter BS as a logical defense.

[Tiger-Heli]

It seems to me that when software is developed which essntially requires users to violate the rights of hundreds of copyright holders, it should not be unexpected that occasionally some of your users might consider violating the terms of your license.

MAME doesn't "require" users to violate any rights.  You can play Robby Roto 24/7 in MAME if you want to.

Consider buying a Ferrari - The car doesn't "require" me to violate the speed limits of every country in the world although it pretty well could do it.  And my insurance company (license) may not cover any damages that result from racing the car.  And yes, they probably expect that a lot of users will race the car, but they're still protected, since they told you not to.  But racing Ferrari's on any public road at any time, gives the car a bad name, and might persuade the local authorities to look into whether the cars should be legal to operate.

(Not the best example, but it worked better than I thought).

[Santoro]

MAME doesn't "require" users to violate any rights.  You can play Robby Roto 24/7 in MAME if you want to.

I am with you on this one - StarRoms has ~50 Legitimate ROMs right now.  Mame itslef is completely legit.  What other ROMS many of us use in it is a different story.

[CGRemakes]

Another thing I've wondered.  I legally own games such as Capcom Arcade Hits Volume 2, Atari Anniversary Edition and Namco Museum 3.  To my understanding, all these programs emulate the original arcade ROM images.  I personally prefer MAME to the software used by these programs, but they are not in a format that is recognized by MAME.  Would I legally be able to download the .zip ROM images to be used in MAME?

Short answer is, Probably not.  The bottom line is it comes down to what the copyright holders want to enforce.

Other than Robby Roto, StarRoms, and the Capcom games that ship with the HotRod, none of the arcade manufacturers have said "Use our roms for personal use whenever you want".

If you have an original arcade PCB, it's generally accepted that you could burn the rom images off of it to a file, and use them in MAME, although there are no copyright rules in place at the time the boards were sold, so this is not strictly permitted (or prohibited).

In the above case (owning the PCB), it's generally accepted that you could download the rom image and use it, although that's not specifically permitted either.

Having a game based on the rom image and developed by the manufacturer (Atari's Arcade Hits for the PC), might make you feel better about downloading the rom, and does send some money to the manufacturer, but isn't really legitimate.  Bad example - but similar to if I make a movie and put Coca-Cola billboards all through it and have the characters drinking Coke in many of the scenes, and then tell Coke, "I thought it was okay, becuause I've bought a case of Coke each week for the past 10 years".

If you download all the MAME roms for your personal use - I don't think the software police are going to raid your house and put you in jail.

There are individuals who will send you a complete set of MAME roms for the cost of the discs and postage, and so far they have been able to keep doing it.

If you start selling CD's with the MAME roms, it will raise some eyebrows, and not a good idea, b/c the individuals above do it for free, but I don't know of anyone being prosecuted for this, other than many websites that used to offer ROMS being hassled by the IDSA.  (And I'm not sure how much of this is legit, and how much that was the excuse to avoid having to support the bandwidth of having 4000 plus files being constantly downloaded).

I really don't see the "making money off of MAME" stuff in the official license, but I know it's kindof an informal agreement and that the MAME devs feel it's unsupported . . .

Regarding ROMS, personally I like PaigeOliver's example - He had a friend with a MAME cabinet stocked with ROMS.  In the bottom of the cabinet was a PCB from some game.  It was non working, had several chips missing, multiple solder patches, etc.  His friend's response "I don't know what game it was originally from, it doesn't have any name on the board anywhere, as far as I'm concerned, it's all of them."

Fair enough, I will manage with the versions I legally own then.  

[Tiger-Heli]

Another thing I've wondered.  I legally own games such as Capcom Arcade Hits Volume 2, Atari Anniversary Edition and Namco Museum 3.  To my understanding, all these programs emulate the original arcade ROM images.  I personally prefer MAME to the software used by these programs, but they are not in a format that is recognized by MAME.  Would I legally be able to download the .zip ROM images to be used in MAME?

Fair enough, I will manage with the versions I legally own then.  

Re-reading your question - if you buy a game (Namco Musuem 3) and it uses the original rom images - and the game does not have any license statements about re-use of portions of the files, I would think you could convert these images and use them in MAME.

Otherwise, I think the example on copying CD's comes into play.  I have never known anyone to get in any trouble for having or copying CD's or music or ROMS, although selling them could get you in trouble.

If you are really paranoid, you could run your non-legit ROMS from a CD and only have the CD installed when you play MAME on the computer.  (Just as illegal, but harder to detect).

BTW, all of this was discussed in length in this thread (link to page 3)

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=12034;start=msg94030#msg94030

[nipsmg]

Why does it seem that everyone seems to be missing the point.

You're sitting here arguing the *legality* of MAME itself, and using it in a commercial enterprise. (not in all posts in this thread mind you, but a decent amount of them).

The problems isn't MAME itself, becuase you can substitute MAME with Callus, or Raine, or any other arcade emulator, and what it comes down to is profiting off another companies intellectual property: The games themselves.

Now I'm not going to get into the morality issue, I'm on the wrong side of it.  I don't own every game I've played in mame.   But i'm also not trying to profit off it either.

It's INSANE to even hint that "Getting away with it" is ok. -- The more people that do this, the more the problem will grow-- the more attention the problem will get -- the more attention the companies will pay to it -- the more legal attention mame/emulators in general will get -- etc... snowball effect.

This is absolutely NOT OK.  The ONLY way I think you could possibly justify this, is if for each game you offer for play, you go onto EBAY and get the game board for the $20 or less it'll cost, or hell, go to a distributor and ask to buy some old game boards.... i'm sure you can get them cheap.  Then, running mame in this instance would be more acceptable, as long as you actually own the games your putting into place.  You're allowed to use these games to make money... that was the original point of the board in the first place, whereas the starroms roms are for personal use only.

Even though a company no longer profits off the board you own, because it's already been paid for, they could very well profit off of the game itself, which they own.. (look at the mspac/galaga reunion cabs, etc)...   And if they don't profit off the intellectual property, there's this thing called a lawsuit that can help them reap large profit from a previously unprofitable "asset."

NOT a good idea.. period.

--NipsMG

[Tiger-Heli]

Good points, nipsmg

The problems isn't MAME itself, becuase you can substitute MAME with Callus, or Raine, or any other arcade emulator, and what it comes down to is profiting off another companies intellectual property: The games themselves.

Yes and no.  The MAME license (or the unwritten but generally understood part of it) prohibits making money off MAME.  I don't think Callus or Raine have a similar license.  (Could be wrong, though).

But what this means is  - The MAME team could sue you if you use MAME in a commercial enterprise.  The arcade game companies could sue you if you use any emulator in a commercial enterprise (or in your own home) if it was worth it to them.  They could also sue the Callus or Raine teams for making it possible to use their intellectual property in a commercial environment.  Theoretically, if they sued the MAME team the team could say "Nope, that violates our license, so we didn't authorize it.  We're in the clear . . ."  How well that would hold up.

It's INSANE to even hint that "Getting away with it" is ok. -- The more people that do this, the more the problem will grow-- the more attention the problem will get -- the more attention the companies will pay to it -- the more legal attention mame/emulators in general will get -- etc... snowball effect.

When I mentioned "Getting away with it" I was talking about for personal use.  The thread had gotten off topic. . .

This is absolutely NOT OK.  The ONLY way I think you could possibly justify this, is if for each game you offer for play, you go onto EBAY and get the game board for the $20 or less it'll cost, or hell, go to a distributor and ask to buy some old game boards.... i'm sure you can get them cheap.  Then, running mame in this instance would be more acceptable, as long as you actually own the games your putting into place.  You're allowed to use these games to make money... that was the original point of the board in the first place, whereas the starroms roms are for personal use only.

Even though a company no longer profits off the board you own, because it's already been paid for, they could very well profit off of the game itself, which they own.. (look at the mspac/galaga reunion cabs, etc)...   And if they don't profit off the intellectual property, there's this thing called a lawsuit that can help them reap large profit from a previously unprofitable "asset."

Interesting . . . I somewhat agree that if I have the original PCB and the required business license, I should be able to make money off the game.

Note however, that the original company (say NAMCO) makes no money off of my second-hand purchase of the game board.  And if someone plays Ms. Pac or Galaga in my business place and decides that that was neat enough that they want to buy a reunion cab (which does make NAMCO money), they could do that whether or not I own the original PCB, so "stealing" the game is in effect making them money, but I doubt this would hold up in court.  OTOH, having to buy the game board does save on the piracy issue and make them money because if I have to buy from a limited number of Ms. Pac boards, eventually the board cost gets high enough that it's just as cheap to buy the new Reunion cab.

[nipsmg]

This is absolutely NOT OK.  The ONLY way I think you could possibly justify this, is if for each game you offer for play, you go onto EBAY and get the game board for the $20 or less it'll cost, or hell, go to a distributor and ask to buy some old game boards.... i'm sure you can get them cheap.  Then, running mame in this instance would be more acceptable, as long as you actually own the games your putting into place.  You're allowed to use these games to make money... that was the original point of the board in the first place, whereas the starroms roms are for personal use only.

Even though a company no longer profits off the board you own, because it's already been paid for, they could very well profit off of the game itself, which they own.. (look at the mspac/galaga reunion cabs, etc)...   And if they don't profit off the intellectual property, there's this thing called a lawsuit that can help them reap large profit from a previously unprofitable "asset."

Interesting . . . I somewhat agree that if I have the original PCB and the required business license, I should be able to make money off the game.

Note however, that the original company (say NAMCO) makes no money off of my second-hand purchase of the game board.  And if someone plays Ms. Pac or Galaga in my business place and decides that that was neat enough that they want to buy a reunion cab (which does make NAMCO money), they could do that whether or not I own the original PCB, so "stealing" the game is in effect making them money, but I doubt this would hold up in court.  OTOH, having to buy the game board does save on the piracy issue and make them money because if I have to buy from a limited number of Ms. Pac boards, eventually the board cost gets high enough that it's just as cheap to buy the new Reunion cab.

My point here was... that intellectual property DOES NOT HAVE to be profitable to the company in order for them to sue the pants off you and anyone else facilitating illegal use of that property.

[Tilzs]

nipsmg said it best.

Just because you don't get caught doesn't mean it's OK.

[bigmoe]

nipsmg said it best.

Just because you don't get caught doesn't mean it's OK.

One of the big problems here--and one of the reasons I think we can all disagree--is that this area has not yet been legally well-defined.  The MAME team, et al, keep it from being well-defined when they word their license the way they do, and when they agree to take ROMS out when they're asked.  The arcade industry keeps it from being well-defined when they know what's going on, but turn a blind eye and occassionally ask a ROM to be removed.

It's in everyone's best interest to keep it this way.

I'm not sure I can put everything in the right order, but here's a try:

There IS such a thing as copyright and IP, that is protected by law.  It makes using IP without a license illegal, and subject to criminal penalties (fines, imprisonment, etc).  It *also* gives the basis for CIVIL suits, which is where the IP owner attempts to recover damages from a transgressor.  These proceedings take place in a separate court system.

A criminal case is prosecuted by the government.  Usually they don't do this unless someone presses charges, though the recent Adobe case is an exception.  There's not much that can be done about this unless the laws change.

A civil csae is prosecuted by the injured party.  The interesting thing about a civil suit, is that case law is generally defined by a jury.  And a jury is a very unpredictable thing.

The reason I think that we haven't seen more from the copyright owners is that in a civil suit, the following complications for them arise:

a) Damages.  They have to prove that Stanley MameUser's use causes demonstrable economic harm.  Then they have to prove what that harm is, in order to get an award.  Civil suits are often dismissed by a judge out of hand if there are no demonstrable damages.

b) Limiting of Damages.  An IP owner, moreover, has the responsibility to take action to limit damages.  Once they find out their IP is being used illegally, they have the legal responsibility to try and do something about it to stop the infringement.  Thus, the longer they wait, the more difficult it might be to show that they took steps to limit their damages.  This is especially true of a company that asked the MAME team to remove a ROM; they clearly knew what was happening, and if they allowed some ROMS to stay in while asking other ROMS to be removed, this could conceivably be interpreted by a jury as implied permission.  Note that in this case, the longer the status quo is in place, the more difficult it's going to be for the copyright owners to prove they attempted to limit damages.

Moreover, whether it's written into the law or not, a jury could conceivably acquit on the grounds of good faith.  If Stanley has every Namco museum/William collection/StarRom ever published (much more expensive prolly than just buying the boards for those games), a jury could conceivably find that Stanley did NOT obey the letter of the law but he HAS attempted to follow the spirit of the law and that the company suffered no damages.  (These games are the ones which, in my opinion, could offer the best damages argument for the industry since a Namco museum type product is similar enough in intent and use to the way Stanley uses Mame.)

To make it even more complicated, I understand there is a petition which the DMCA committee is taking seriously regarding the preservation and use of software for abandoned hardware.  Many of these ROMS could fall under that, depending on how it's worded and whether it's adoped (I know little about it).

The first suit of this kind is probably going to define the tone of any to follow.  So to make it worth the arcade industry's while, they have to sue and hit a home run.  A verdict in their favor but which awards no damages probably won't cut it as far as making any further enforcement efforts worth their while.


So everyone is just waiting to see how it goes.  A suit is risky because besides being expensive, a lot depends on what judge hears it and what jury decides it.  (Juries HAVE been known to disregard the law in favor of common sense (or viseversa) from time to time.)

So please, don't press the issue.  Avoid doing anything that might even look like you're making money from the MAME software or ROMS.  Ask your friend to buy a multiwilliams or something.

And home MAMEusers:  Buy starroms.  Buy dead boards.  Buy Namco software.  Play videogames in bars and arcades, preferably in front of subpoenable witnesses.


b

[Tiger-Heli]

Well written, two things to point out -

One of the big problems here--and one of the reasons I think we can all disagree--is that this area has not yet been legally well-defined.  The MAME team, et al, keep it from being well-defined when they word their license the way they do, and when they agree to take ROMS out when they're asked.  The arcade industry keeps it from being well-defined when they know what's going on, but turn a blind eye and occassionally ask a ROM to be removed.

MAME contains no ROMs, but the dev's have removed games from time to time.

There IS such a thing as copyright and IP, that is protected by law.

IP = Intellectual Property (not internet provider)

[bigmoe]

Well written, two things to point out -

One of the big problems here--and one of the reasons I think we can all disagree--is that this area has not yet been legally well-defined.  The MAME team, et al, keep it from being well-defined when they word their license the way they do, and when they agree to take ROMS out when they're asked.  The arcade industry keeps it from being well-defined when they know what's going on, but turn a blind eye and occassionally ask a ROM to be removed.

MAME contains no ROMs, but the dev's have removed games from time to time.

Uh, right, I knew that...thanks for the clarification.  Communication regarding support for a game, however it's accomplished, shows understanding on the part of the industry.

There IS such a thing as copyright and IP, that is protected by law.

IP = Intellectual Property (not internet provider)

Yeah, sorry.  Thanks again.

[Santoro]

nipsmg said it best.

Just because you don't get caught doesn't mean it's OK.

<snip>.....

And home MAMEusers:  Buy starroms.  Buy dead boards.  Buy Namco software.  Play videogames in bars and arcades, preferably in front of subpoenable witnesses.

Wow, that was the most intelligent, well thought out description of the issues I have seen.

Thanks, nice job.  IMHO this sould somehow be in the FAQ.

[bigmoe]

Thanks, nice job.  IMHO this sould somehow be in the FAQ.

Glad you found it useful, or at least thought-provoking.

I could, of course, be completely wrong  .

But that's how I see it (until the next post or event gives me more to chew on).

b

[paigeoliver]

Of course there are a few problems with the whole "Mame software is 100 percent legitimate" theory.

Number one problem, it supports bootleg games. Those were never legal, they weren't legal nor legitimate 20 years ago, nor are they now.

Number two problem. In many cases there is simply no way the Mame devs had a legitimate copy of the rom to write the driver for in the first place. Bradley Trainer and a few other Mame supported titles literally exist as only one or two machines/boardsets that are not, and never were owned by the Mame devs (I believe this to be the case for MOST of the games actually, not just the protos).

Of course I also believe there is a direct but silent link between the Mame devs and the release of the ROM on the internet itself, at least in some cases.