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Main => Everything Else => Topic started by: shardian on February 11, 2008, 03:45:31 pm
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I pretty much hate my job at this point. After fighting my gut feeling for months, I am pretty sure that things won't get better. I've never been properly trained, and that is hurting big time now. I've went thru some real life events the past 2 years that have had an effect on my outlook on work and life also. I feel like I am wasting my life sitting in a frikkin 8x8 cell for most of the day. I look at some of the older folks here and say to myself, "no way do I want to be like them - a slave to a company while their family does pretty much everything without them." I am to the point I dread showing up here, and simply cannot concentrate while I am here. I love the people I work with, but the work simply sucks. I hate being in an office all day. I'm starting to look for a new job, but I know that if I simply move on to another office job I will just end up in the same boat eventually.
My degree is in Mechanical Engineering and I really don't think engineering/construction is something I want to do the rest of my life. The field is so full of B.S. anymore that it simply is not fun. I think I would like to be a teacher, but a masters degree to get a license would take 3 years. For goodness sakes, I went into Engineering because I thought I could make more money than a teacher, but realistically it isn't much more unless you are a high ranking VP or something. I do think I will still go the teacher route eventually, but for now I just don't know how much longer I can put up with my current job - looks don't pay for masters degrees you know.
I can tell I am at a crossroads in my career, I have a wife and kid at home and need the insurance/paycheck, so I can't just quit and float until the next job.
I'm sure a few of you have been through something similar, and I could really use a few words of encouragement.
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I'm sure a few of you have been through something similar, and I could really use a few words of encouragement.
I'm in a somewhat similar spot and have been for a couple of years. The main difference between your spot and mine, I think, is that I am making good money and would have to take a pretty big salary hit in order to change fields. That or I'd have to go back to school for substantial work before changing, which I wouldn't mind much, but I don't want to get back into thousands and thousands of dollars of school loan debt. Took me too many years to get out the first time.
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Will your current employer pay for your master classes? If so, get started on the degree and leave when you are done. Possible that during your coursework your employer will figure out what is going on and perhaps another door might open for you there.
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Will your current employer pay for your master classes? If so, get started on the degree and leave when you are done. Possible that during your coursework your employer will figure out what is going on and perhaps another door might open for you there.
He wouldnt be able to leave as soon as he is done though. Most competent companies will require that you stay with them a certain number of years before leaving.
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He wouldnt be able to leave as soon as he is done though. Most competent companies will require that you stay with them a certain number of years before leaving.
That is not necessarily true. It is very common for an engineering company to have tuition reimbursement. I have never worked at one that obligated anything more than a certain performance level in the class and on the job while in the class. Sadly my employer has $1000/year reimbursement. That isn't enough for one class at a good school.
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Wow, I'm at the other end of the spectrum as you guys. I'm more worried about losing my job with the upcoming tanking of our economy.
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Heh, no they wouldn't pay for my masters degree. Here in WV, you can become a certified teacher with any Bachelors degree, and a masters in Teaching. It is a way to get a diversified teaching staff.
Besides, the fact I was wanting to get a masters in teaching would kind of be a ringer that I was switching careers.
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Wow, I'm at the other end of the spectrum as you guys. I'm more worried about losing my job with the upcoming tanking of our economy.
Well that could eventually happen too in the construction business.
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Well that could eventually happen too in the construction business.
That is a main factor in my not switching careers or going back to school at night. My employer wouldn't get hit nearly as hard by a recession as other engineering companies so as a senior guy here I'd probably be on the safe side. I don't want to run up all of that loan debt, either, with a possible recession coming. So for the time being it looks like I sit and ride for a while where I am. :-\
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So for the time being it looks like I sit and ride for a while where I am. :-\
That is what logic dictates I should do, but I just don't know how much longer I can put up with this place.
Here is an example of the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- I put up with:
I get handed a job, and told "Don't worry about it being perfect, just get the job out". I hate doing those types of half-assed jobs, but it seems that's all I get. I've done them for so long that I've almost forgot how to do the job right and proper. Anyways, I notice that once the job lands in my hands, it is already overdue by at least a few weeks - usually months. Doesn't matter though, guess who gets put on the hot seat when the GC starts conveniently calling a day after I get it. So I whip out a half-assed design with that "Don't worry about it" promise. Then when the calls start coming in about problems in the field, and/or things the salesman missed, guess who again gets put on the hot seat? You guessed it. Now take that example and multiply it by about 5, because at any one time I have 5 of them and they are all rush jobs and I have to prioritze by which GC complains louder.
Recently, my supervisor took note of the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- I was going through and helped redistribute some projects. I get back down to having the one big project that I've been bumping down the priority list for weeks, and as soon as I start to concentrate on it and think things are getting better, here come even more last minute time eaters and field issues I have to fix! It has been 2 weeks, and I STILL have not been able to spend more than an hour on my big project at a time. It takes a frikkin hour just to get my head wrapped around what I need to do - so I end up accomplishing nothing. Well, guess which project is now in that danger area of last minute like all the others? Yep, you guessed it - the big project. I figure the dreaded GC calls will be starting any day and that the big boss will be coming around wondering WTF is the problem. He's oblivious that most of us are way overstretched.
This type of work has just wore me down to where I just don't care any more.
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Will your current employer pay for your master classes? If so, get started on the degree and leave when you are done. Possible that during your coursework your employer will figure out what is going on and perhaps another door might open for you there.
He wouldnt be able to leave as soon as he is done though. Most competent companies will require that you stay with them a certain number of years before leaving.
In my neck of the woods, that is not true. Many organizations are now only reimbursing for degree work actually related to your job or in the direct path of your job in that company, but you still could leave immediately if you so wished. I think that they would have a talk with you at some point just to see what your plans were, and if you are a good employee, how they could get you to stay.
Edit- You got in while I was typing. What you describe is a fairly common practice at many organizations. Well, not the "half-assed" piece but the rest. There are weeks where I can't get to the project I actually need to be, and my many other projects have their priorities shifted so often I can't even keep pace with which is more important than what. Just focus on doing a good job and let the VPs argue amongst themselves.
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Often you have to wait until they actually cut you the check to leave. It may be 2-3 months after completing the course for that to happen. One of the little print terms on the policy is "and still an employee in good standing until the reimbursement is made".
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You can get grants from the federal government to pay for your tuition and give you a stipend if you pursue teaching. A friend of mine got a deal where his classes were paid for and he was given ~$20k a year. Only catch was he had to a sign a contract promising to teach high school math for 3 years when he finished. (put a heavy stamp of "if I remember correctly" on all that)
I believe this is the program he was using:
http://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_summ.jsp?pims_id=5733&org=NSF&sel_org=NSF&from=fund (http://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_summ.jsp?pims_id=5733&org=NSF&sel_org=NSF&from=fund)
If the link doesn't work, try searching, "Robert Noyce Teacher Scholarship Program"
I think I will follow up on that. I could get by on 20k a year if I lived on minimums and my savings.
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So what kind of teacher?
I forgot all about that program. Keep in mind that they might want you to teach in certain areas where there are a lack of teachers/surplus of crime. Not sure if it was the same program as the one mentioned or not but i vaguely recall a program for getting new teachers into areas that werent safe.
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He should go teach basketball and tupperware to natives in Africa.
(http://www.worldhum.com/images/uploads/striker.jpg)
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I believe this is the program he was using:
http://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_summ.jsp?pims_id=5733&org=NSF&sel_org=NSF&from=fund (http://www.nsf.gov/funding/pgm_summ.jsp?pims_id=5733&org=NSF&sel_org=NSF&from=fund)
If the link doesn't work, try searching, "Robert Noyce Teacher Scholarship Program"
Upon closer inspection, that is not a nationwide program. It is money available for Universities to submit grant proposals as to why they could best put the money to use. No universities in my area participate.
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For some reason i wanted to say he would teach history but math would make more sense with the engineering background i suppose.
Also i dont think he would want to work in Africa since he wants to spend more time with his family and his family being mad at him for wanting to move out of the country might make things worse.
edit-how about something like this link (http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/teachercancel.jsp?tab=repaying)
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So what kind of teacher?
When I think of jobs that I think I would enjoy, teaching is the only one that strikes a chord with me. Every single other job is just a "means to an end" to me. I thought I could get away with the means to an end thing, but I realize it is just gonna make me a miserable person in the long run. Why spend half of every day of my life away from everything I love just so I can buy nice things, own a home, etc? The logic of that is just retarded!
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Also i dont think he would want to work in Africa since he wants to spend more time with his family and his family being mad at him for wanting to move out of the country might make things worse.
Eric Foreman had that problem.
sharidan, give it a shot. Maybe your wife will be blonde when you get back!
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For some reason i wanted to say he would teach history but math would make more sense with the engineering background i suppose.
Also i dont think he would want to work in Africa since he wants to spend more time with his family and his family being mad at him for wanting to move out of the country might make things worse.
edit-how about something like this link (http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/teachercancel.jsp?tab=repaying)
I would want to teach math, science, physics, or just general elementary classes.
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Also i dont think he would want to work in Africa since he wants to spend more time with his family and his family being mad at him for wanting to move out of the country might make things worse.
Eric Foreman had that problem.
sharidan, give it a shot. Maybe your wife will be blonde when you get back!
Yeah but he had to get a bunch of vaccines before he left (if he did i never saw how that turned out for him).
Shardian check that link in my last post if you missed it.
edit-i wouldnt mind teaching history if i ever got the chance.
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sharidan, give it a shot. Maybe your wife will be blonde when you get back!
My wife is already blonde. And dude, you keep spelling my name wrong. :P
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for a sec i thought you meant me. but you didnt.
edit- another link (http://www.kristv.com/Global/story.asp?S=6204644)
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I hate my job too, but not my field. I took this position because it seemed like an interesting opportunity to work with some former colleagues on a cool project; WRONG!
Now I'm stuck in a :censored: job and am looking.....
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...me too, the weather isn't helping my mood either.
The lottery is over 150 million.
If I don't win tomorrow I'll need to rethink my plan B.
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I hate my job too, but not my field. I took this position because it seemed like an interesting opportunity to work with some former colleagues on a cool project; WRONG!
Now I'm stuck in a :censored: job and am looking.....
I took the job I am in because the job market SUCKED when I graduated. There were zero jobs for ME's, and the jobs that were open knew they were the only show in town so salaries were insulting. Unfortunately, the job market still sucks, and we have the fear of a crap economy, a recession, a weak dollar, an election with all of its unknowns, etc. It wouldn't take much in this perfect storm to find yourself up the creek without a paddle, you know?
That is why I wish I could get out of my rut at this job. At this point in time, any job is more important than a the job of your dream.
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You probably DONT want to get your Masters before finding a teaching job though. Most school systems have to pay extra for anyone that has their Master's degree. It's cheaper for them to hire someone with a Bachelors instead of a Masters.
You probably want to add your teaching certificate to your degree. It's easier and faster to do that. My teacher's license expired about 10 years ago and I am working to get it back. I left a job paying 80k+ with excellent benefits to work for a very, very small non-profit foundation (I'm the only employee), and my plan is to get my license back spring of '09 to teach the following fall. I'll probably lose another 30k off my salary but it's more worthwhile IMO.
Good luck. :)
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I dont hate my job, as in-so-much as I dropped out of uni, and getting 11 an hour for unskilled labour isnt a bad deal. When I see people talking about how they get 80k+ a year im like O.o! I could easily buy property and pay for surgery with that kind of income, even if the job/career sucked.... (Hell, i would prolly work a job like that for 7 years, save up a bunch, then change to a lower paying job that I enjoyed). But meh..... Just me rambling...
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I've said this before(maybe not on this board):
When I waited tables full time through college I couldn’t wait to get my “real job”.
Now that I have a “real job” I realize as long as you’re getting paid you have a real job.
If I could make the money I make now shoveling *poo* I'd switch jobs in a heartbeat.
Not having to work is still my main goal.
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I hate my job too, but not my field. I took this position because it seemed like an interesting opportunity to work with some former colleagues on a cool project; WRONG!
Now I'm stuck in a :censored: job and am looking.....
I took the job I am in because the job market SUCKED when I graduated. There were zero jobs for ME's, and the jobs that were open knew they were the only show in town so salaries were insulting. Unfortunately, the job market still sucks, and we have the fear of a crap economy, a recession, a weak dollar, an election with all of its unknowns, etc. It wouldn't take much in this perfect storm to find yourself up the creek without a paddle, you know?
That is why I wish I could get out of my rut at this job. At this point in time, any job is more important than a the job of your dream.
Guess you're more than welcome here. Company's cannot find competent people here, economy is great, euro is strong and the most important thing: we do not have cells in offices (we do still think people are actually human).
I've been working in IT 5 years, and was forced to go back to my "electronics career" because of a really bad period in IT. Through another company, I landed here at a small company in Fire alarm systems. I come around when the installing guys are finished and the system needs to be programmed and checked if it's installed according to the rules and plans etc. and then test everything. I also do maintenance and repairs. So, I don't work in an office, but I never had a problem with it when I did (although I have to admit, it was always projects for, let's say a year). I have parts of the job I hate. The worst thing are the traffic jams, and my boss expecting me to be there at 8.00, wherever it may be and whatever traffic jams I may have to go through. I make a pretty decent salary for the work I do, lot better than market average and I drive a pretty decent company car (for our standards). It's a nice company to work for, there's a strong binding feeling and I was actually surprised how much that means to me. Work is nice if you are being appreciated. I also like to get the time to do things properly, and that's usually ok. I do feel I have more potential than the work I'm doing now though. So I am now studying to be able to design fire alarm systems for buildings, a next step and a welcome change. Not sure what will come from it, but it's nice to have more options open....
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Not sure where you are in WV but here are several links to different programs at different schools.
WV
http://www.hre.wvu.edu/hre/teachered/teachered.html
(The link you should follow on that page isn't working so I couldn't pull up more details. A call to the school may help)
Marshall
http://www.marshall.edu/coehs/academics/certification/programs/mat/
The post-baccalaureate teacher certification program is an accelerated avenue for college graduates to attain teacher certification. The program's professional education courses and clinical experiences combine with the content the student earned at the undergraduate or graduate level(s) to lead to teacher certification. For additional information on the certification program, you can request a copy of the brochure.
Generally speaking, someone with Masters has to be paid 5-8k more per year than a Bachelors. Unless a school system is desperate for a particular area (math could be one), they don't want to pay for a Masters when a Bachelors candidate will do. Market conditions obviously can affect that. However, based on the current economic outlook, I can't see a school district with enough money to go that route unless they are really, really desperate.
I've researched different universities in Indiana for about five or six months regarding licensing. I realize some rules are different from state to state but the generalities are fairly standard. I was originally licensed in five or six states to teach secondary education and there were only minor differences between each state.
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And dude, you keep spelling my name wrong. :P
Surely you don't mean that.
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If I could make the money I make now shoveling *poo* I'd switch jobs in a heartbeat.
I was watching Dirty Jobs the other day and every job I saw had me thinking "that looks more fun than what I do and that guy is knee deep in poo".
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Shardian,
Have you considered law school? With a science/math background you could go into patent law and make loads of money. There is a major shortage of patent lawyers (you have to have physics and math classes that most law students have no interest in), so you are pretty much guaranteed a high-paying job right out of school. Firms that normally only take students that were in the top 5%-10% of their class will pretty much just hire you regardless of your performance in law school if you meet the requirements to be a patent attorney.
Obviously, I'm in law school. So I'm partial to law school. Whatever. What other grad degree can you start whether you majored in political science, music, chemistry, early childhood development, 18th century women's literature, or anything else, only takes three years from start to finish, and sets you up to make the kind of money lawyers can make?
If you have what it takes to do patent law, and it sounds like you do, and you want to completely change career fields, and it sounds like you do, but you'd still like to make some use of your engineering background (presumably you do), and you want to be guaranteed a very good living . . .
Look into it.
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Hmmm, let's see... I went to law school. Now I'm working for a big bank in a tropical country. My office oversees the bay and my apartment has a gym and a swimming pool, I have 11 people in my team and enough money to retire. Did I do okay? :angel:
But seriously, if you want to enhance your career opportunities, consider an MBA. With a degree in engineering and an MBA the opportunities are much better then with only a bachelor.
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So what kind of teacher?
Why spend half of every day of my life away from everything I love just so I can buy nice things, own a home, etc? The logic of that is just retarded!
You basically just described 99% of every working person in the world.
JOB = spending half of every day of your life away from everything you love just so I can buy nice things, own a home, etc?
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An MBA will get him his boss' job yelling at a guy like him now. He may as well give himself a head injury that leads to a 40% reduction in mental faculties - it would be the same as getting that MBA from a lifestyle perspective.
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Head injuries don't bring in $$$, MBA's do 8)
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MBAs don't even necessarily bring in $$$.
pinballjim overstates the case against. Had I gone to University of Utah my tuition would have been about $11,000 per year. That's under $40k, and it's a well-regarded university. I got into U of U, but I chose Miami because I want to do international law and Miami has a very good program (while the land-locked Salt Lake City based school doesn't have an international program to speak of). Anyway, law school doesn't have to cost $30-$40k per year. Just go to a public school instead of a private school and you won't end up with $100k of debt.
As for the LSAT (Law School Admission Test), it's great news. You don't have to know anything for it. It doesn't test knowledge. The answer to EVERY question is contained within the question. It only tests your skill at seeing the answers within the questions. It's mostly a logic test. And the skills can be learned in a short period of time if you're willing to put in some effort. The hardest section of the test for the vast majority of people is actually the most teachable section (reading comprehension is the least).
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It seems like I'm in the minority here... I actually like my job. :dunno
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I liked my job a lot before leaving to come to law school. There was just no more ladder to climb, and I wasn't making enough money. Plus, as a network administrator, I was always threatened by technology making networks more and more self-repairing, and technologies allowing maintenance, repair and backup to be largely done remotely from an off-site location. There would always be the temptation to outsource me to some faceless company that does remote network admin. And as much as I loved my job, I would HATE HATE HATE to work for one of those companies where I'd end up being glorified telephone tech support.
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I graduated in '01 with a Polisci degree and I started a pool business. ;) After four years of that, I decided that I didn't want to do that for the next 30 years. I've been chipping away at it for the last few years and I am finally down my last quarter of student teaching. I don't know how things work in WV Shardian, but I was able to go back to OSU and just take the classes to get my Technology Education licensure since I already had an undergrad. So, in short, I will hopefully have started my teaching career before my 30th birthday and I will say that when I started four years ago, I would've never thought it possible. :cheers:
EDIT: Shardian, I also have a 6 month old at home and went to school at night. My father in law gave me great advice a couple years ago. He said, "Where do you want to be in two years? How are you going to get there? Once you figure it out, make some goals on how you plan to get there and make it happen." I have to say that it worked.
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I don't think I'll be doing law school. There are 2 things I absolutely know with a passion I will not fit into: Law and Medicine. ;D
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There is the other side of that coin as well:
"In 10 years, would you rather have been in class at night or spending time with your baby?"
When my kids were that small I chose time with them over going back to school. I'm not sorry I did. Eventually the kids will reach an age where they are indifferent to your being there at night. They won't be changing week to week like they are for the first few years. That's probably when I'll go back and finish up my degree. Until then I come home at 6pm, have dinner with my family, help my kids with their homework, and put them to bed myself. Sure, my career isn't where I want it to be, but my parenting is, and that is more important to me right now.
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There is the other side of that coin as well:
"In 10 years, would you rather have been in class at night or spending time with your baby?"
When my kids were that small I chose time with them over going back to school. I'm not sorry I did. Eventually the kids will reach an age where they are indifferent to your being there at night. They won't be changing week to week like they are for the first few years. That's probably when I'll go back and finish up my degree. Until then I come home at 6pm, have dinner with my family, help my kids with their homework, and put them to bed myself. Sure, my career isn't where I want it to be, but my parenting is, and that is more important to me right now.
That's part of my problem with me hating work. I appreciate my family to the nth degree after losing our son. I can't stand not being there, and when my boss tells me I should put more hours in at work I feel like telling him to ---fudgesicle--- himself.
Any other job I got in the engineering industry would probably mean 50 hour or more work weeks. I just can't do that any more. That is why teaching is so incredibly attractive to me. That, and I like math ALOT and would love to teach it.
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There is the other side of that coin as well:
"In 10 years, would you rather have been in class at night or spending time with your baby?"
When my kids were that small I chose time with them over going back to school. I'm not sorry I did. Eventually the kids will reach an age where they are indifferent to your being there at night. They won't be changing week to week like they are for the first few years. That's probably when I'll go back and finish up my degree. Until then I come home at 6pm, have dinner with my family, help my kids with their homework, and put them to bed myself. Sure, my career isn't where I want it to be, but my parenting is, and that is more important to me right now.
I made the same decision years ago when my kids were babies. I didn't want to live with the regret of not being there for my wife and kids. Now that they are 13 and 10, I bust ---my bottom--- at work so I can afford to send them to school in 5 years.
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Any other job I got in the engineering industry would probably mean 50 hour or more work weeks.
That is definitely true.
I just can't do that any more. That is why teaching is so incredibly attractive to me. That, and I like math ALOT and would love to teach it.
What makes you think teaching isn't a 50 hour week?
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What makes you think teaching isn't a 50 hour week?
It can be. My mother-in-law is a counselor and she puts in a ton of hours...but she doesn't have to. She is just really inefficient and combine that with the fact she hates being home she is where she wants to be. You grade papers and such at home. I have a housewife at home who is 9 hours shy of a teaching degree herself that would be working with me on developing lesson plans, grading, creating tests, etc. Teaching is something me and the wife can do together. If she goes to work eventually, we could try to be at the same school. Teaching isn't something I have thought of half-cocked. It would be far less hours I put in now, and I know for a fact I can live comfortably off of a teachers salary.
I know that being a teacher is not a cakewalk. It scares me thinking of dealing with troubled kids who don't want to learn. I've tutored many whiny brats in math, but never dealt with a kid facing serious issues. Learning how to engage those kids is a challenge I really want to try and excel at. I had a few teachers in school who were amazing at getting trouble kids to participate - I was one of them in elementary and middle school. I remember each one of them vividly and respect them to this day. I would love to be like them and have a lasting impact on some kids lives. Besides, maybe kids would find this hobby more interesting than my current coworkers do. ;D
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hehe, I could be the "video game" teacher. Lesson plans involving classic arcade games, word problems on tests that are based in a game situation, etc, etc. :laugh2:
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Just wait until you've got a classroom full of 16 year olds that are only thinking about sex and couldn't care less about math. THAT'S what did my friend in.
My job's okay... I got the MBA and basically got my old boss's job. Pay stinks, but it's still significantly more than I made at the last job (though don't let me overstate 'significantly')
Basically, there's no job out there that's both easy to get and fun to do and pays enough to keep you happy. Best I ever did was 50% pay to work out of my house where I basically checked e-mail, answered the phone, and worked on pinball machines.
Yeah too bad that schools won't let you theme your lesson plans around sex. ;D
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My main issue is that what I do is so freakin' abstract. I can't even explain it to some software engineers, nevermind people who aren't in this field. I never actually put my hands on anything - I'm either designing process, or implementing software lifecycle tools, or writing automation tying the two aforementioned pieces together. I rarely see the apps I write all of this for - hell it would be illegal for me to be poking around some of them because the data is confidential. The only way I have ever come up with of explaining to a layman what I do is that I write tools that software developers use. I need to be able to hold something in my hand, work it around, and eventually show someone and say "I made/designed/fixed that". There is pretty much zero satisfaction for me in what I do now. I'm really good at it, but as the years go by, I find myself caring less and less and it is becoming more difficult to keep the quality level as high as possible. :banghead:
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I need to be able to hold something in my hand, work it around,
There is pretty much zero satisfaction for me in what I do now.
So, what exactly do you do for a living... :laugh2:
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I need to be able to hold something in my hand, work it around,
There is pretty much zero satisfaction for me in what I do now.
So, what exactly do you do for a living... :laugh2:
Heh, I needed that! :laugh2: :cheers:
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So, what exactly do you do for a living... :laugh2:
;D
When I was a kid my grandfather used to drive me around on sundays and show things he had built. We'd drive past a building and he'd say "built that one, took about 7 months, two crews, we had trouble getting the bedrock cleared enough to put in a subbasement." I always really enjoyed that. I have nothing like that to show my kids. Maybe someday I can tell them "You know how your friend Jimmy got busted for trying to buy Sudafed at 5 different pharmacies last week? Daddy worked on the app that caught him."
Yay. :lame:
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Hi,
Work sucks, you may think that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, but eventually it will still suck.
the hard part is that you have realize that your job is not who you are, but what you do in order be able to do the things you want to do.
My suggestion would be to find a hobby (Build and Arcade Machine or something :) ) , find something outside of work that will make it worth it to put up with the crap. Also make sure you do your job (8hrs a day and leave the work behind when you go home and spend time with your familiy)
I'm in the same boat as you, work sucks, and it was hard to get up in the mornings to go to the office. And I cannot afford to take the huge pay hit (about 50%) to get a different job. But things do get easier once you find something more important than work
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I've really wanted to contribute a ton to this conversation, but my demanding engineering job that I hate leaves me with very little time to think clearly about anything else ;)
I want to go the teaching route as well, but I probably never will. I've done volunteer after school math tutoring, paid after school math tutoring, and paid undergrad engineering teaching while in grad school. Loved it. About a year ago, I scheduled a meeting with our town's superintendent to discuss the concept of leaving engineering for the wonderful world of high school math. He was thrilled, as people from industry who also have interest in teaching are almost always the most effective in schools. The problem, at least where I live, is that even with a Masters degree, I'd have to take a 55% pay cut. That would equate to moving my family to a cardboard box underneath an overpass. And at this salary, to really do a good job at teaching, the hours put in to planning and preparation, along with follow-up on all lessons and assignments, all on top of the physical hours put into the classroom during the day would add up to somewhere well over the already more than 40 hour weeks I put in as it is. So to teach, I could get paid half as much and work as hard or a little harder than I already do. The personal fulfillment isn't worth that much.
I've also checked out the law school and MBA things. With my engineering background, IP and patent law would be perfect, and even interesting. As it's been noted, though, I don't want to work a 10 hour day, then drive into the city for night classes, and never see my family for 4 years. While less drastic, an MBA falls into the same boat. The return on investment isn't worth the lost "living" time. As it is, I'll work 10-12 hours, come home to see the family, break out the laptop to do a little more work after bedtime, and only get paid for 8 of those hours each day.
Ultimately, I will also stick with what I'm doing for a while. I don't love it, I usually don't even kinda like it, and I'm going to get screamed at in a meeting an hour from now; but I can heat my house, so I'll keep coming back. It's unfortunately the norm I see among engineers in particular.
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Ultimately, I will also stick with what I'm doing for a while. I don't love it, I usually don't even kinda like it, and I'm going to get screamed at in a meeting an hour from now; but I can heat my house, so I'll keep coming back. It's unfortunately the norm I see among engineers in particular.
Maybe I just need to go back to pure development. I was much happier with one or two projects at a time. Juggling 10 parallel projects in various stages of development with entirely different teams is killing me.
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Quite honestly, I think I would be much happier at my job now if the boss would allow me to come in a half hour early, take a half-hour lunch, and then go home at 4. The big boss is old school and believes every single person should be here from 8-5. Of course to do that I actually end up here from 7:30 to 5:30. Then tack on a 35-40 minute drive on each end. I get to see my family for an average of a whopping 3 hours a day during the week - assuming I neglect all of my chores and projects. ;D
I used to do sidework at home, but it wore me down quick starting a 10pm, working till 1, waking up at 5:30 and getting to work so I could do a bit more before my regular workday started. That ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- gets old real fast.
Honestly, I wouldn't be taking all that much of a pay cut of my base salary to be a teacher. The one thing I would miss is the unlimited overtime opportunity and freelance side work.
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Why would you miss out on the side work?
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Why would you miss out on the side work?
I would not have access to the software package that is necessary anymore. I "could" design without it, but it is a huge PITA to do.
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Gotcha. I decided to keep a small portion of my pool business and I plan to work in the summers with it. If you decide to go the teaching route, maybe you can figure out some form of your work that you could use during those months off to produce more income.
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Heh . . . my bad. Since I never seriously considered going there I didn't look at it closely. It was $11,000 per semester rather than per year (it's apparently gone up to $13,000 per semester now).
Well . . . if you wanna live in Utah you could always go to BYU. It's actually ranked about 35th in the nation (that's pretty high). They don't do resident/non-resident tuition, they do mormon/non-mormon. The non-mormon tuition is under $20k per year, but the tuition for members of the church is $9,000 per year :o It's seriously the deal of the century, if you don't mind weird rules like no shorts above the knees, and no drinking coffee on campus. And being surrounded by ultra-conservative Mormons all the time.
At any rate, there are lots of law schools that cost less than $20k per year to attend. http://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/tuition.php/1/asc/Tuition08
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Well, I've been there. A lot of it comes from being young I think. Most older people I know are more satisfied than us fiesty young pups, and honestly every new job I have gets more and more pleasant, and I doubt it's JUST the job.
About what ChadTower says, well, that's more of a problem - imagine hating your job like you do but knowing you couldn't afford to switch. You are early career so you really have FAR more options than most people.
BSME is a killer degree. There's LOTS of great jobs even around here for that degree. Get a job at the gas company, it's easy work, get paid well, some of our departments would allow flex time so you could work 4 10's and take every Friday off.
Everywhere I've ever worked paid tuition and they didn't have a contract to keep people there. Who in their right mind would sign up for that... I know I sure wouldn't, nothing good could come out of a contract keeping you at a job.
My opinion... Change is good. Go find a new job, even if it stinks it'll take you a couple of years to get tired of it.
Wade
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Oh, I'm in an MBA program too with an infant, and I made the decision that she'd miss me a lot less before she's 3 than when she's older and actually wants to do things, play sports, whatever. Plus, work pays for most of it and it's local through an accredited university, so I felt the opportunity might not always be available. I DO really wish I didn't have to put the time into class, but it was a choice of the lesser of the evils. And I'm pretty confident this will be my last degree until I'm close to retirement (have 2 degrees already).
Wade
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BSME is a killer degree. There's LOTS of great jobs even around here for that degree. Get a job at the gas company, it's easy work, get paid well, some of our departments would allow flex time so you could work 4 10's and take every Friday off.
My opinion... Change is good. Go find a new job, even if it stinks it'll take you a couple of years to get tired of it.
Wade
I'm fine with change really, it is the time in between that would be spent without insurance/income that bugs me. ;D
I looked at the job postings for the gas company and the power company - nothing current that fits my bill. I have my EIT certification, so that would hopefully put me a leg above when an entry engineering job opens up. You have any engineering contacts at the gas co.? I would love to work at the gas co. - the pay would definitely be an upgrade.
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It sounds to me that you dislike your boss more than your job. I have a degree in industrial engineering, and over my career I've learned that I can live with a bad job (for quite a a while) if I have a good boss. There were a couple roles I've had within my company that I really liked, but my boss was such a pompous ass that I was ready to quit.
I've done the 60+ hour work weeks, no time off on weekends, etc. for months and although I hated it, it was a good learning experience. I now know that I will no longer tolerate more than 50 hour weeks for an extended period of time and I have let my bosses know that I will look for a different job if that is their their expectation. There are always times when extra hours are needed to get the job done, and I have no problem putting in long hours. I do have a an issue when an organization is understaffed and the workload is out of control.
So.... I have a couple suggestions for you. First, see if there is another position in your company and your could work for a different boss. Second, I suggest polishing up your resume and handing it out to the local recruiting agencies in your area. These people get paid to fill positions at companies and they are motivated to find you a job. You can tell them your experience, your salary requirements, and the type of jobs you are looking for and they will do the rest. My company recently laid off 25% of its local workforce, and I handed my resume to a few recruiters "just in case". They set up three different interview offers within a couple weeks. Seriously, check them out. They may even be able to find you a much higher paying job that you would enjoy.
One last thing...... I can relate to wanting to go down the teaching route, specifically in math. It is something I would love to do and I know I would be really good at it. But the reality is that you would likely be just as frustrated if you became a teacher, only with less take home pay. Both my parents were high school teachers, and the one piece of advice they gave me was don't go into teaching for the money (duh). Teaching really is a thankless profession, and you'll catch just as much shiet from disgruntled parents as you do from your engineering customers.
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I don't think I'll be doing law school. There are 2 things I absolutely know with a passion I will not fit into: Law and Medicine. ;D
I hate to belabor the point, but definitely make sure that your passion is based on the reality of lawyering, vs. what people commonly think it means to be a lawyer. In other words, know with a passion that you would not fit into an attorney's shoes because you don't enjoy research, but not because you aren't interested in working on cases or doing litigation, or because you think lawyers are slimy. VERY VERY few lawyers work a day of their lives inside a court room.
If you think you would dislike the work, then absolutely, don't do it. Money can only go so far toward making up for an miserable job. But if you're thinking of going back for a graduate degree I'd be sure that you have a realistic idea of what being a lawyer would be like before dismissing it.
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I agree with shmokes. Before I went to law school I never would have dreamed of doing that, or working as a "suit". I started out studying Japanese but came quickly to the conclusion that there are lots of Japanese speaking the language better AND have secondary skills. So I switched to law school, started working for a bank and never looked back. An MBA is a major time consumer (ask my ex-wife 8) ) but I think it's worth it and not just for the money. If you're interested in what makes companies tick, an MBA will teach you that. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who's fresh out of college because business experience helps a lot.
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I went into Engineering because I thought I could make more money than a teacher, but realistically it isn't much more unless you are a high ranking VP or something.
Where do you live that being a teacher means a higher salary than being an engineer? California?
Every single one of my undergrad engineering major friends were making more right out of college than my mom was making after teaching her whole life. Okay, that's a slight exaggeration and sure, times have changed since my mom was a teacher and salaries have gone up, but it shocks me that you'd make more as a first time teacher than you would as a mechanical engineer.
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Answer to my own question: West Virginia
According to the the American Federation of Teachers, in 2004-05 West Virginia's beginning teacher salary was $26,704
I guess the market for Mechanical Engineers must have changed in the last 15 years if that's equal to or greater than the pay you're making now, because that's less than my engineering friends were making back in the 90s right out of college
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I may have missed some details here but if the job isn't requiring you to put in mega-hours then simply stop caring. You would be surprised how much that can do for your job satisfaction.
If they are making you put in mega-hours then I suggest jumping ship. An entire life spent in an office isn't a life at all.
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Oh I would definitely make less as a teacher, but the drop wouldn't mean a change in lifestyle by any means. We live on a pretty tight budget and the cost of living here is pretty darn low compared to other areas of the country. Yes, the offers I was receiving out of college were downright insulting.
I work for a smaller company, so when I saw boss, there are several people who can fall into that category. First there is the guy who is the unofficial design manager. Everything runs thru him, and he is a really cool guy. Then there is the Design Manager. He is a funny little man who is about to retire. He doesn't really do anything anymore, but is a walking encyclopedia of knowledge. He throw's his weight around occasionally to remind people he is still there, but is harmless really. The VP and Pres are father and son. Everyone likes the VP, and he will take over as President probably in the next 2-3 years. The President is hardcore old-school. He comes from the age in which companies owned their employees and you lived your life to serve the company. He can be a nice guy, but he is also just as likely to come unhinged and be an ass. I don't care for him and I don't think he cares much for me. It's a generational thing, and he just can't understand the fact that my generation realizes family is WAY more important than work. He has always held a grudge against me from when I was off for a month to be with our son in the NICU, and I also took time off when my wife was in and out of the hospital for our second child. Maybe it's a jealousy thing, because he chose work over his family in the same situation when he was my age? I don't know.
Still, I very rarely interact with the President. The only "boss" I interact with on a regular basis is the design manager and the guy who does the design managers job. I'm cool with both of them, and I outright respect the latter and want to do good by him.
And Paige, I've been doing the "not care" thing for a while now. Living in denial is just making me miserable.
Scmokes, it is definitely 100% the material that I have no interest in, same as medicine.
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Eventually, you'll have interest in what you think will give you the best career.
For now, it sounds like you need to polish your resume and get a job at the gas company. You'd probably start out making significantly more than you make now, you'd have better hours, and lower stress. You'll just end up getting bored after a few years, but boredom definitely isn't the worst thing. I'll give some of my friends who still work there a call and see if they can find a way in for you.
Wade
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Eventually, you'll have interest in what you think will give you the best career.
For now, it sounds like you need to polish your resume and get a job at the gas company. You'd probably start out making significantly more than you make now, you'd have better hours, and lower stress. You'll just end up getting bored after a few years, but boredom definitely isn't the worst thing. I'll give some of my friends who still work there a call and see if they can find a way in for you.
Wade
THANKS!!
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THANKS!!
Stuff like that makes me wish I wasn't such a jackass on forums, but then I realize the only one doing anything somewhat in the same field as me is bokster (boyster? whatever) and he's just as much as an a-hole as me.
Good luck getting into oil/gas companies. They all want 3 years experience in their field and entry level jobs are hard to come by. If I had been willing to move to California I had a shot at a marketing job for one of them, but that was as far as I ever got. :/
There's very much a 'good ol boy' mentality with some of the companies, so having an inside track is probably going to be very helpful.
I wouldn't extend that offer to anyone on the forum complaining about his job - I also know Shardian personally.
Around here, there may not be frequent openings at the gas companies, but they don't require experience. I and many people I worked with at gas companies just walked on.
BTW, pinballjim, what field do you work in?
Wade
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I shuffle papers for scientists.
Not even close to what I do....... :dunno
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioinformatics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheminformatics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_chemistry
It's b-o-y-k-s-t-e-r
and nobody's as big of an arsehole as you
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- double post -
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BTW, pinballjim, what field do you work in?
I shuffle papers for scientists.
Somehow, I suspect that being a poorly-paid paper shuffler isn't the best source for career advice ... :dunno
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Somehow, I suspect that being a poorly-paid paper shuffler isn't the best source for career advice ... :dunno
Glass houses, my friend. :laugh2:
I haven't offered any advice -- I have little to offer as I am in a totally different position than the OP.
I hate that I have to work, but since I do, I do work that I find rewarding. Even though I have to put in a lot of hours, I have structured things so that I am with the kids when they are at home and awake. And since nobody owns more of the company than I do, it's a waste of time to ---smurfette--- about the boss.
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Not even close to what I do....... :dunno
Yeah, but you're the only one that would possibly know of any open position I was qualified for
I think there's a sanitation engineer position available in my building, should I forward your resume? ;D
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I shuffle papers for scientists.
Hey, scientists gotta use the toilet too.
What? Oh, wrong kind of paper? Sorry. ;D
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I was in the same boat, Hated my job etc...(actually it was a few jobs) so I did the whole Carreer change Got the MBA and found that I was over educated for my level of experience. So I lucked onto my current job. I love it. Problem is that to everyone else I'm underemployed. They see this great big MBA sticker on my forhead and that I should be making 80-100k.
I do look all the time to see what's out there and most of the MBA jobs I see are financial requiring 5 years of experience.
Some day I'm gonna have to break in to some type of leadership position...but I have time to enjoy where I am now and perhaps exaust my current growth path.
Pinballjim. How did you make the transition?
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MBA...Some people think of it as some super impressive thing, I just saw that I wasn't going to get to where I needed without it.
I have yet to meet that person.
Wade
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Some people think of it as some super impressive thing, I just saw that I wasn't going to get to where I needed without it.
In the first stages of my career, I was considering doing my MBA, mostly because it was an easy add-on (12 month program, specifically due to my undergrad program) and I thought it would look good on a resume.
My mentor at the time said "If you want an MBA, just hire one."
I say this not to provoke or dismiss the value of an MBA (my sister is doing hers right now and I am 100% supportive ... and tutoring stats and finance), but rather to point out that an MBA isn't a ticket to anywhere -- you need something else before that MBA is of any value.
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20 years ago an MBA was impressive. Now it is pretty much standard to be a manager outside of the tech field. Every third resume has one.
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20 years ago an MBA was impressive. Now it is pretty much standard to be a manager outside of the tech field. Every third resume has one.
Busier interviewing than fixing the bugs in your own app ?
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Busier interviewing than fixing the bugs in your own app ?
I was when I was foolish enough to be a manager myself. I could only take it a few months - nothing but meetings talking about work, accountable for the work of others but producing nothing myself, writing about work. Never doing any work. It was like sitting in a room listening to Tom Cruise read off tommy's greatest hits all day every day. I ended up quitting to find a job back in the engineer's level.
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It was like sitting in a room listening to Tom Cruise read off tommy's greatest hits all day every day.
:cheers: :laugh2: :cheers:
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If you want to run your own business, I'm not even sure I'd suggest it as it's a huge time and money sink and you can hire plenty of MBAs to shuffle the paper for you.
Or in the case of my Brother-in-law, an MBA gives you the tools and knowledge to cheat taxes effectively in small business.
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Even if every third resume has one, do you want to be the 2 out of 3 that immediately hits the trash can?
That's not what happens in my field. It doesn't mean the other two hit the trash can - it means one of the three has a meaningless MBA on it.
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Advanced degrees are nice to have, if for no other reason than you give more weight to your resume in case of ties on experience. I got my MIS some years ago just for my own edification. Company paid for it (except for books). Information I learned benefited both me and my company. I was shocked, though, at the overall low quality of graduate students in the MIS and MBA programs. Many of these students thought Access was an enterprise-quality database system.
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Many of these students thought Access was an enterprise-quality database system.
If someone with an MIS degree said that to me in an interview I would end it right then and there. No further discussion necessary. The person is either lying about their degree or got it from a can of Chef Boyardee.
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My mentor at the time said "If you want an MBA, just hire one."
People always say that about other professions. The MBA students had a similar disdainful attitude towards lawyers. The MIS people had the same attitude towards computer scientists, etc.
You assume it is disdain (since when is an MBA a profession?) ... perhaps that is due to your own experience. It wasn't disdain (we DID hire MBAs and I do so today!) -- it was a reminder that getting a degree to put on a resume doesn't necessarily add value to your life. It may let you climb one rung higher on some ladder, but it won't result in a massive swing in career success or personal fulfillment. He was encouraging me to be more entreprenurial and take some risks instead of resigning myself to the linear path. Perhaps it is coincidence that I have not assembled a resume since.
My sister has no illusions about why she is doing her MBA -- it is a requirement for her to move up the ladder. If she isn't happy being on the ladder, then the MBA will do nothing to change that.
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Many of these students thought Access was an enterprise-quality database system.
If someone with an MIS degree said that to me in an interview I would end it right then and there. No further discussion necessary. The person is either lying about their degree or got it from a can of Chef Boyardee.
Agree 100% about ending the interview. Scary thing is, these kids are getting jobs with state agencies where the managers believe that same thing. And people wonder why government has problems getting things done.
Large, well-regarded public institutions allow these people to graduate, just not "Chef Boyardee-U".
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Large, well-regarded public institutions allow these people to graduate, just not "Chef Boyardee-U".
A large institution doesn't stay well regarded turning out graduates like that. I saw it happening too when I was in college, though. At Northeastern there was a substantial percentage of the Cmpsci dept that was buying its way through the program. There were guys graduating who couldn't C their way out of a paper bag - despite having taken most of their programming and algorithms classes in that language. They were buying homework from other guys. I had a couple of people approach me for my projects. I had no interest in getting kicked out of school, but if I had been willing to risk that, there was a lot of money to be made from wealthy foreign national students.
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I'm not suggesting they were not doing their own work. The projects that were required each semester always had to be done on a small-scale, so you almost had to use Access for those. This was '99-'02, so not many other easy alternatives. So that is what they learned and what they thought would be used in the real world. The textbooks spoke in generalities, not specifics so minimal mention of DB2, SQLServer, or Oracle.
The group projects were one way for the college to get through the marginal students. I always hated those and did not hesitate to be a butt-head to those in my group who didn't carry their weight.
My undergrad was a different story and I made a lot of beer money 'helping' students through the one or two required PC courses in our liberal arts programs.
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Scary thing is, these kids are getting jobs with state agencies where the managers believe that same thing. And people wonder why government has problems getting things done.
What really sucks about State, Federal, and even my company is that they wait to hire these clueless graduates until AFTER the highly experienced vets retire. All in the effort of saving a few pennies. They think these college kids - who have no clue about how "real life" works, are going to walk in and perform at the same level. Newsflash: It just ain't gonna happen unless they are trained properly. In most cases any more a college degree is just a piece of paper that says the person who attained it is at least somewhat intelligent, has a moderate working knowledge of the subject matter, and can be trained quicker than a person w/o a degree.
At the Corps of Engineers, they are basically shoving out all of their veteran Engineers and technical people. Their main charge is the lock and dams system. There is only a handful of people left that even have a clue how to build one, and almost all locks are due replacement.
At my job, I was hired and thrown into the fire. I've never been properly trained - not even close. They FINALLY hired another young guy, and he is well on his way to being done just like me. The last guy who was hired a few years before me was put in the shop for a time, put in the field for a time, and was properly trained over his first year. IConsidering all of the vets are a year or two from retirement, they have really missed out on an opportunity to pass on all of that knowledge.
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The point of college isn't to pump you up full of specific job skills, it's to teach you how to 'think' like a member of that chosen profession.
That's managementspeak garbage. Pure and simple. Engineers, and yes MIS grads are engineers, are expected to have a baseline level of skills when they graduate.
Do you really expect fresh MIS grads to know everything about whatever niche database system you're utilizing?
Yes. Absolutely. I expect an MIS grad to know the difference between a single user application and an enterprise level DBMS. I fully expect them to have at least a simple grasp on the difference in architectural requirements between the two. That is, after all, specifically covered in an MIS program.
We utilized a lot of MS Office products when I got my degree... but guess what... the terminology, structures, usage, etc translate at least 90% to other systems.
That's just out of context of what the guy said. Knowledge of Access isn't going to get you 5% of what you're going to need in an Oracle environment. I wouldn't expect a fresh grad to be a Oracle certified DBA. I would, however, expect them to know enough to know how much they don't know. If they don't know at least that much they don't know a damn thing.
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There is a reason engineering interns actually get paid. They get paid because they actually have useful skills. You can give them a narrow task and they will complete it to reasonable standards. As they get closer to their degree they can complete larger and more professional grade tasks.
There is a reason business interns do not get paid.
Either your computer science advisor was a business intern or your school had a terrible program. I've studied in two top cmpsci programs - both were teaching practical skills to the people who were actually there to learn. I did my first internship after my freshman year and was writing useful automation for my employer.
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Sounds like you should be hiring out of vocational academies or community colleges if you ask me.
Computer science adviser at my college used to tell his students, "if you want to be a programmer, drop out now and go to community college" and that advice was probably more rock solid than the school wished he would share with them.
That is very true. You learn next to zero practical knowledge in college. Trade school teaches you the practical stuff, but you then lack the foundation and theory to build upon - you are stuck on that bottom rung.
I had more than one interview in which I was drilled about my hobbies and interests way more than my grades in school. At one interview I went to explain a course I had an issue with and the guy cut me off and said "You have a piece of paper that says you graduated, thats that matters."
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Chad, you expect too much of an MIS degree. I wouldn't expect an MIS grad to know the first thing about database or programming. When I was working on my undergrad, the MIS students only had to take 2 or 3 programming classes, and those were Cobol. The CS students had to take a lot more difficult and "nuts and bolts" types of programming classes, and the majority of them took a lot of "special topics" classes that covered things like VB, VC++, Java, etc.
Essentially... the MIS were the folks didn't have the capacity or courage to get through the CS program (and the 30 hours of math scared off a lot of folks). Interestingly, it was rare to see an MIS student in the Comp Sci special topics classes. Your school may vary, and things might be different today, but it was a very obvious line at my school. There was the same line between the engineers and the printers (most who went into printing admitted it was because it was easy).
Wade
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Chad, you expect too much of an MIS degree. I wouldn't expect an MIS grad to know the first thing about database or programming.
Knowing the difference between a single user app and an enterprise level app, specifically the local execution architecture vs a client/server architecture, is well within the MIS program.
MIS programs are much more involved now than they were ten years ago. Much deeper. They wouldn't be of any use in today's multilayered architectures the way they used to be.
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EDIT: eh, forget it, it was a good post but I have too much to do this afternoon than waste time while jim argues a profession he hasn't been in with people who have been in it a long time.
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Yeah, you computer nerds are speaking greek to me right now. ;) ;D :P
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There's a world of difference between the application design process and the actual coding of it. It's two completely different skill sets and generally two completely different personality types. A computer science major comes out knowing lots of technical information but absolutely nothing about business processes or needs, unless they took some electives. A MIS major comes out knowing basic business principles, application design, and some soft skills on the actual coding... unless, again, they took some electives.
You hire a compsci guy to write code. You hire an MIS guy to develop software, meet with users, and manage the programmers. (there, look, I got a dig in, too ;D )
I do both, the complete design, and all programming (in whatever language/db is best suited). Because of the variety and say in how projects develop and turn out, I love my job. A grunt coding job would not be fun for me.
I should state I have a 'Masters in Information Systems' not an Undergrad MIS degree (undergrad is actually double major Business Admin/Comp Sci). I do expect a graduate degree MIS applicant to know quite a bit more about business processes out of the gate than I would a 4-yearer.
Oracle, IBM's DB2 and MS's SQLServer aren't really "niche" databases, IMO.
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Yeah, you computer nerds are speaking greek to me right now. ;) ;D :P
That's okay - you can operate a $1 rummage sale steamer. I still need to learn that. :)
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Yeah, you computer nerds are speaking greek to me right now. ;) ;D :P
That's okay - you can operate a $1 rummage sale steamer. I still need to learn that. :)
I have also hauled MDF...sorry...I couldn't resist. All in good fun, right? ;D
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I have also hauled MDF...sorry...I couldn't resist. All in good fun, right? ;D
So have I, now. longass 2x4s, too. I'm moving up in the world of lumber movement. I'm almost ready for hardwoods.
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Oracle, IBM's DB2 and MS's SQLServer aren't really "niche" databases, IMO.
:laugh2:
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Most of the major enterprises in the world are running one or more of those database systems. I'd be surprised if at least half of them aren't using Oracle. Oracle is to the enterprise database what Cisco is to the internet.
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I need to be able to hold something in my hand, work it around,
There is pretty much zero satisfaction for me in what I do now.
I'm almost ready for hardwoods.
Are you working on getting a promotion? Or just a raise? :laugh2:
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Are you working on getting a promotion? Or just a raise? :laugh2:
I'm hoping that when I finally burn out I won't leave the chimney clogged up with creosote.
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There's a world of difference between the application design process and the actual coding of it. It's two completely different skill sets and generally two completely different personality types. A computer science major comes out knowing lots of technical information but absolutely nothing about business processes or needs, unless they took some electives. A MIS major comes out knowing basic business principles, application design, and some soft skills on the actual coding... unless, again, they took some electives.
I hate to say it (just because it's coming from pinballjim) ;) but I generally agree with the above. They are both computer related degrees, but the MIS is more of a business management degree with a computer emphasis, and the comp sci is a math/engineering degree with a computer emphasis.
Wade
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Teaching is a hell of a rewarding job if you enjoy being around kids and are good with them, the benefits are usually pretty good, and it's not the same old thing day in and day out. There are downsides, but I'm happy with my career teaching in a high school.
In WVa, can you get a provisional license without having a MA? I ask because you may be able to get a job teaching and have up to 3 years to get your MA. In VA, it used to be set up so that anyone with a BA could get a provisional license, and then take the required teaching courses and tests within three years and get full certification.
It's also worth mentioning that many school systems will pay for classes you take for certification or recertification, and that having a Master's is invaluable in education. I have mine, and I can take Underwater Basket Weaving 101 and it will count towards my recertification points.
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There's a world of difference between the application design process and the actual coding of it. It's two completely different skill sets and generally two completely different personality types. A computer science major comes out knowing lots of technical information but absolutely nothing about business processes or needs, unless they took some electives. A MIS major comes out knowing basic business principles, application design, and some soft skills on the actual coding... unless, again, they took some electives.
I hate to say it (just because it's coming from pinballjim) ;) but I generally agree with the above. They are both computer related degrees, but the MIS is more of a business management degree with a computer emphasis, and the comp sci is a math/engineering degree with a computer emphasis.
Wade
And in my experiece, the best application designers / managers / technical directors / department heads can live just as comfortably in both worlds.
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Engineers, and yes MIS grads are engineers, are expected to have a baseline level of skills when they graduate.
Not where I went to college. Comp Sci's were engineers and in the engineering building, MIS students were not considered engineers and took their classes in the business hall.
Wade
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Not where I went to college. Comp Sci's were engineers and in the engineering building, MIS students were not considered engineers and took their classes in the business hall.
How many years ago was that, Wade? Things are vastly different than even ten years ago when I was in school.
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It was half and half at my school. MIS students took half their classes in the business building and the other half in the computer science building. Still, no one considered them engineers.
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I graduated way back in 1994 with a BS in Comp Sci and I wasn't considered and engineer, I guess things have changed.
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UMass had no Cmpsci building yet was one of the top Cmpsci programs in the US in the mid 90s. Not sure where they are now. Northeastern was way way below that but had a very nice dedicated building. Having a building doesn't tell you a hell of a lot other than how much it costs to be there.
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I don't mean to say that people literally walked up to comp sci's and said, "hey, engineer." I mean it was in the engineering program in the engineering college and had more required math than the engineers, and MIS was in the business school with very light math, engineering, or programming classes.
It was only 10 years ago that I was in college. Some colleges might have changed a lot in that time, but I'm sure those in my state (WV) haven't changed that much. I'm sure that the college of engineering vs. college of business separation still exists as most schools for CS vs. MIS.
Wade
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I hated graduates coming into my old company (Fujitsu) because I had to train the guys who had a computer science degree on how to use the computer system. This was more than 10 years ago, but some of those guys were just plain dumb.
Degrees are nice to have but cannot replace someone with experience.
I laugh at them now considering the costs to get a degree and still they take $10 an hour jobs. :laugh2:
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I can't see someone having an actual cmpsci BS needing to take a $10/hr job. I was making more than that as an intern my freshman year - in 1994.
There are definitely guys in cmpsci that just have no practical life skills, though. That is not unique to cmpsci, there are people like that everywhere. I have met cmpsci grads that couldn't identify the CPU on a motherboard. Those same guys, though, could diagram out the logic bus based on their OS kernel knowledge. Just don't ask them to show you where on the PCB it happens.
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I'd say 75% of the graduates went on to tech support / help desk type positions.
And those are the people that, taking the easier path, were first on the guillotine when the crash happened. Those are the people that never were able to find another job and ended up moving to other fields they could have entered without a degree. Every talent pool has its lower rung of mediocrity.
In other words - the folks that came out with an undergrad degree not being able to grasp the scale difference between Access and Oracle and not having the motivation to research a potential employer going into the interview.
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Crash happened before I graduated, kthx. We're not all awesome and old like you.
Okay, then let's make it more current: Those people are the first laid off when jobs get moved to India. Better workers get moved into other positions - the dairy cows end up selling cars or working collections in a phone farm.
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People in India can swap out dead hard drives in the continental US?
Corporate support contracts actually call for that sometimes. Defective machines aren't fixed, they are sent back in groups and replaced by working ones. The defective boxes are then shipped off someplace, refurbed, and put back into the manufacturer's pool for support contracts. I wouldn't be surprised if some companies ship them off to India for that. Small hardware like laptops, anyway.
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People in India can swap out dead hard drives in the continental US?
Corporate support contracts actually call for that sometimes. Defective machines aren't fixed, they are sent back in groups and replaced by working ones. The defective boxes are then shipped off someplace, refurbed, and put back into the manufacturer's pool for support contracts. I wouldn't be surprised if some companies ship them off to India for that. Small hardware like laptops, anyway.
No they send the equipment to the UK and the big boys there send it to India. They charge say $100 to refurbish it when it really costs including shipping about $50.
Thus the hew and cry about the outsourcing that has been going on since 2004. India or Pakistan doesn't care as they have a lot of people there on the breadlines. Work is cheap and so is exploitation.
Makes you want to quit your job and set up a company in..... :censored: