The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Arcade Collecting => Miscellaneous Arcade Talk => Topic started by: MaximRecoil on December 23, 2007, 09:41:42 am
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If you have an old 2-prong wall outlet, wired with 2-conductor wire, can you replace it with a 3-prong outlet simply by jumping a short wire in parallel from the regular ground terminal on the outlet (common/neutral/white) over to the 3rd prong ground terminal, rather than replacing the entire run of wire with 3-conductor wire or adding an additional full-length ground wire back to the breaker box?
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Its best to replace it, Read this article, it will help you out !
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Electrical-Wiring-Home-1734/replacing-outlets.htm
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If you don't have a true earth ground, it serves no point to add a connection to the neutral wire for the ground pin. The entire point of an earth ground pin is that if there is a short in the system, the juice defaults to the ground wire. That is the path of least resistance, saving you from a more painful experience.
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If you don't have a true earth ground, it serves no point to add a connection to the neutral wire for the ground pin. The entire point of an earth ground pin is that if there is a short in the system, the juice defaults to the ground wire. That is the path of least resistance, saving you from a more painful experience.
I found this online:
As an electrician, i wouldn't use the white (neutral )wire as a ground, as I believe it is not safe, however I would check box to see if it is grounded, and use it if it is.
So there is a possibility that the neutral wire is grounded? And if it is, could I then use it for the 3rd prong? If it is not grounded, how hard would it be to ground it? Probably easier than running new wires.
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If you have a two wire outlet then chances are that the outlet is mounted in a metal outlet box. Take a voltmeter (on AC volts) and measure the voltage from the black (hot) wire to the metal box. If you get 120 volts (approx, whatever your normal line voltage is) then the metal box is already grounded from metal-to-metal contact of the conduit. You can then install your new grounded outlet one of two ways:
1. Simply connect the black and white wires from the old (two wire) outlet to the respective terminals on the new outlet. Now mount the outlet in the box. The outlet is now grounded from metal-to-metal contact of both the mounting screws and the outlets "mounting ears" touching the metal box.
2. Go to Home Depot (or other hardware store) and in the electrical section are prepackaged 6" long green grounding wires with a self-tapping (thread cutting) screw on one end. Simply take the end with the screw and thread it into one of the empty unthreaded holes in the rear of the outlet box. Attach one end of the green wire under the screw and the other end to the ground screw on the new outlet. Connect the black and white wires to the respective terminals. You're now grounded.
If you plug a grounded outlet tester in the outlet it should show that it's now properly grounded.
Of course all of the above is meaningless if you did NOT measure 120 volts from hot wire to metal box. That means there's no metal to metal contact from that box to ground.
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As Ken says if you do not have a true ground for your box you cannot turn it into a 3 wire with just a ground jumper. A proper ground must exist at your box for the jumper to work properly.
Quote:
There IS a way to change the 2 prong to 3 prong...but the ONLY safe and Code compliant way to do it is with new 12/2 with ground wiring from the panel to ALL locations that are to have 3 prong grounding style receptacle outlets....with no break anywhere in that ground path. To do it any other way is not only illegal...but also unsafe and it can cost you more in damages and injury then the cost to rewire these location every would.
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I've thought about whether I should put in my two cents considering you rarely care to comprehend anything I write. In the end, even if you won't listen, someone else will. Neutral is usually grounded but it is not something you ever want to treat as Ground.
You need to understand the dangers of what you're asking to do and take the recommendations of the other members to heart. Your life is at stake.
To highlight just one possible scenario.
You do what you're proposing and everything is hunky dory for the time being. Let's say, the Neutral line breaks and there's now a dangerous potential difference. In short, the Neutral line is now HOT. At the same time your hand is on a metal component that is supposed to be Grounded, yet you wanted to save a few $20's and you've got it wired to Neutral instead. The grounded component is now live since the potential to ground rose too high, you are now the shortest path of least Resistance from HOT to GROUND and your insides start to cook. At that point you're now dependent on a fuse or circuit breaker somewhere working correctly to overcome your mistake of wiring Ground the Neutral. All of this happens in less time your brain registers theres even a problem with your hand.
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I've thought about whether I should put in my two cents considering you rarely care to comprehend anything I write. In the end, even if you won't listen, someone else will. Neutral is usually grounded but it is not something you ever want to treat as Ground.
What do previous threads have to do with this one?
You need to understand the dangers of what you're asking to do and take the recommendations of the other members to heart. Your life is at stake.
To highlight just one possible scenario.
You do what you're proposing and everything is hunky dory for the time being. Let's say, the Neutral line breaks and there's now a dangerous potential difference. In short, the Neutral line is now HOT. At the same time your hand is on a metal component that is supposed to be Grounded, yet you wanted to save a few $20's and you've got it wired to Neutral instead. The grounded component is now live since the potential to ground rose too high, you are now the shortest path of least Resistance from HOT to GROUND and your insides start to cook. At that point you're now dependent on a fuse or circuit breaker somewhere working correctly to overcome your mistake of wiring Ground the Neutral. All of this happens in less time your brain registers theres even a problem with your hand.
What is the risk of using a 3-2 prong adaptor without grounding the tab (or breaking the third prong off the plug)? I know this is a common practice. Also, why do most electrical devices still come equipped with two prong plugs?
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Here is a neat little faq that talks in laymans terms and has pretty diagrams. Hopefully it helps you out.
http://www.rain.org/%257emkummel/stumpers/10jan03a.html
And to offer a simple explanation to why manufacturers still make polarized plugs?
A: Grounded pin plugs are not legally required
B: A grounded plug requires an extra length of expensive copper wire
C: Combine A and B, and you can see that a manufacturer can save a pretty chunk of change by leaving out that extra 10 foot length of wire over several million units. ;)
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the best and safest way for YOU to do it, is to hire a certified electrician to rewire the outlets you want done.
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Here is a neat little faq that talks in laymans terms and has pretty diagrams. Hopefully it helps you out.
http://www.rain.org/%257emkummel/stumpers/10jan03a.html
And to offer a simple explanation to why manufacturers still make polarized plugs?
A: Grounded pin plugs are not legally required
B: A grounded plug requires an extra length of expensive copper wire
C: Combine A and B, and you can see that a manufacturer can save a pretty chunk of change by leaving out that extra 10 foot length of wire over several million units. ;)
Thanks for the link.
the best and safest way for YOU to do it, is to hire a certified electrician to rewire the outlets you want done.
Or learn to do it myself. It is not alchemy.
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Yes, if you follow all instructions and you are aware of everything you're doing, electrical work isn't that difficult. It's just that for safety's sake you absolutely can NOT take any shortcuts or try to do something that isn't explicitly stated as safe. That's just taking a risk that you don't want to be taking. While things may work out okay for you, someone else later down the line may not be so lucky. (I'm finding out now that the previous owner of my house was a total idiot with regards to electrical work. I'm in the process of slowly replacing every outlet in the house to ensure it's done properly. This idiot decided to completely strip all of the wires down to the inlet of the box. So the hot, ground and neutral wires are all bare copper inside the box. The proper thing to do is only strip enough wire to make the connection inside the outlet. I've already replaced four outlets that this idiot wired up wrong.)
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Or learn to do it myself. It is not alchemy.
There is a reason you need hundreds upon hundreds of hours of training, then a couple thousand hours as an apprentice, to become a licensed journeyman electrician.
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Or learn to do it myself. It is not alchemy.
There is a reason you need hundreds upon hundreds of hours of training, then a couple thousand hours as an apprentice, to become a licensed journeyman electrician.
The reason is that there is more to their job than just rewiring 2-prong outlets to 3-prong outlets. Plus they are accountable for other people that they do work for, rather than just themselves.
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I'm betting on extra crispy. I just hope it isn't someone innocent.
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I'm betting on extra crispy. I just hope it isn't someone innocent.
I'm sure when the electricity zaps him, he'll just act all sarcastic towards it and tell it that "it shouldn't act that way"; it'll understand
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I'm betting on extra crispy. I just hope it isn't someone innocent.
Attaching 3 wires to the correct terminals is not difficult. Doing it correctly (replacing the 2-conductor wire with 3-conductor wire) is something that I already know how to do. However, what I was asking about in the OP should be the electrical equivalent of that.
With a 3-prong outlet hooked up correctly with 3-conductor wire, you should have continuity between the ground wire and the neutral wire (because they both go to ground, and in some breaker boxes, are hooked into the same bus bar).
So while the method I asked about in the OP is indeed the electrical equivalent of doing it correctly, it is not the physical equivalent. With the correct method, the ground and neutral wires don't gain continuity until much farther down the line, which adds a margin of safety because the neutral can break anywhere between the outlet and the breaker box without affecting the ground (as mentioned by SavannahLion). If wired like I asked about in the OP, any break in the neutral would take out the ground as well.
Now, just how big of a deal is this risk? Is it a big enough of a deal that you are all going to stop using electrical devices that only came with a 2-prong plug in the first place (most TV's for example)? Because if the neutral breaks on one of those, you're in the same boat.
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What is the risk of using a 3-2 prong adaptor without grounding the tab (or breaking the third prong off the plug)? I know this is a common practice. Also, why do most electrical devices still come equipped with two prong plugs?
These are two different situations. The first, breaking the ground or using a 3 to 2 prong adapter without grounding the tab leaves the Ground to float. Problems vary depending on the appliances. PC's for instance won't have a proper reference to ground and you risk corrupted data, RAM corruption, errant behavior, sudden power switching off/on, and graphic artifacts to name a few. Not to mention that every so often you touch the PC, you ground the PC and suddenly neutralize the potential. In other words, you get some pretty decent shocks.
Modern two prong electrical appliances are required by UL (law?) to be double insulated. Doing this isolates the outside from the inside. It's a necessity to avoid the scenario I described before. If a short ever occurs between the outside and inside, then you're right back to square one. Yes, the outer shell (if metal) is left to float. But the potential difference is far less likely to be as great compared to the PC in my previous example choice.
I measured my own house and there's definitely a difference with Neutral relative to Earth Ground.
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I've thought about whether I should put in my two cents considering you rarely care to comprehend anything I write. In the end, even if you won't listen, someone else will. Neutral is usually grounded but it is not something you ever want to treat as Ground.
What do previous threads have to do with this one?
That depends. Have you ever actually seriously read anything I wrote?
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That depends. Have you ever actually seriously read anything I wrote?
I judge information on its own merits, without regard to who is posting it. I don't know where you got the idea that I wouldn't pay attention to a post simply because of its author. If I argue with someone, it is because I disagree with what they are saying at that particular time, not because I automatically think they are always wrong without reading what they posted.
In any event, I'm going to wire the new outlets correctly, with new 3-conductor wire from the hardware store, made for the task (hot to circuit breaker, neutral and ground to the common bus bar). I would use the method Ken Layton described, but while the old outlets are indeed mounted in metal boxes, the metal boxes are not grounded well (only got a ~15 volt reading from the hot wire to the metal box, while the hot to neutral reading was a normal ~120 volts).
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Ok, I can't resist: 3 conductor wire physically has three conductor wires - red, black, and white.
All you want is 2 conductor wire - white and black. The ground wire is not included in the conductor count. Figured I'd save you some money and a surprise trip back to Lowes. ;)
Merry Christmas!!
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Ok, I can't resist: 3 conductor wire physically has three conductor wires - red, black, and white.
All you want is 2 conductor wire - white and black. The ground wire is not included in the conductor count. Figured I'd save you some money and a surprise trip back to Lowes. ;)
Merry Christmas!!
Thanks.
I was just referring to it by what it actually is (3-conductor wire/cable). I know what the stuff looks like. It has a white insulated (neutral), black insulated (hot), and bare or green insulated wire (ground).
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All I can tell you is if you walk into a store and ask for "3 conductor wire", you are not going to get what you want.
After the way you got with the term "broken", it is in your best interest to use the proper terminology. ;)
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All I can tell you is if you walk into a store and ask for "3 conductor wire", you are not going to get what you want.
After the way you got with the term "broken", it is in your best interest to use the proper terminology. ;)
Yeah, but I don't plan on asking for it, I plan on getting it off the reel that is right on display at my local hardware store.
But anyway, it is good to know that the "correct terminology" in this case is a misnomer.
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But anyway, it is good to know that the "correct terminology" in this case is a misnomer.
Just because you don't understand the reasoning behind it, doesn't make the terminology a misnomer. Earth Ground is a conductor but is not considered a circuit conductor. The "2" in NM12-2, for example, refers specifically to the number of circuit conductors in a bundle. Ground is implied. I'm not certain, but I think it was done to evade confusion.
Yes, I know this is different from other professional electrical fields. That's life. Talk to a professional telephone installer if you want a slew of apparent misnomers.
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Just because you don't understand the reasoning behind it, doesn't make the terminology a misnomer.
To refer to 3-conductor wire as "2- conductor" is a misnomer, regardless of the reasoning behind it. Plenty of misnomers have reasoning behind them; and that doesn't change the fact that they are misnomers. Additionally, in this case, the reasoning is only due to an assumed application, when in fact, the wire can be used for anything. I could for example, use it as turn-on leads for 3 car audio amplifiers, in which case, not only does the wire contain three separate conductors, but they are also all being used as circuit conductors.
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You've already admitted you have no clue what you are talking about by starting this thread, so please don't debate the terminology and piss of people who actually take the time to try and help you.
Anyways, Earth Ground is NOT a conductor - it is a safety precaution only used or accessed in fault conditions. Thus, it is NOT a conductor.
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Sorry for the botched edit in my previous post. I made some changes. Took some away. Made some more. Decided on something else. Posted and discovered you posted and the forum didn't warn me. :banghead:
Just because you don't understand the reasoning behind it, doesn't make the terminology a misnomer.
To refer to 3-conductor wire as "2- conductor" is a misnomer, regardless of the reasoning behind it. Plenty of misnomers have reasoning behind them; and that doesn't change the fact that they are misnomers. Additionally, in this case, the reasoning is only due to an assumed application, when in fact, the wire can be used for anything. I could for example, use it as turn-on leads for 3 car audio amplifiers, in which case, not only does the wire contain three separate conductors, but they are also all being used as circuit conductors.
No, you cannot use household wiring in, where I assume a car amp would be installed, your car. However, I'm going to save myself a lot of typing as to the why... see below.
MR, this is exactly the kind of thing I'm referring to when I ask if you seriously read anything I write. I'm just going to wash my hands and end this discussion. Even when I try to sincerely help you, you just seem to want to prove someone wrong despite your open admittance that you don't even know what you're doing. Why the hell should anyone help you if all you're going to do is to try and prove someone wrong about something? Especially about a topic you know so little about?
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You've already admitted you have no clue what you are talking about by starting this thread
In regard to what exactly?
so please don't debate the terminology and piss of people who actually take the time to try and help you.
Okay, so when I said that it was the correct terminology:
But anyway, it is good to know that the "correct terminology" in this case is a misnomer.
You interpreted that as "debating" the terminology? LOL. You do realize that terminology can be both correct and a misnomer simultaneously, right?
Anyways, Earth Ground is NOT a conductor - it is a safety precaution only used or accessed in fault conditions. Thus, it is NOT a conductor.
Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the definition of "conductor".
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No, you cannot use household wiring in, where I assume a car amp would be installed, your car. However, I'm going to save myself a lot of typing as to the why... see below.
Of course you can. It has wire that conducts electricity and the amount of current it can handle far exceeds the current flowing through a turn-on lead. You could use a coat hanger if you wanted to.
MR, this is exactly the kind of thing I'm referring to when I ask if you seriously read anything I write. I'm just going to wash my hands and end this discussion. Even when I try to sincerely help you, you just seem to want to prove someone wrong despite your open admittance that you don't even know what you're doing. Why the hell should anyone help you if all you're going to do is to try and prove someone wrong about something? Especially about a topic you know so little about?
In case you didn't notice, you came into this thread looking for an argument. Read the first part of your first post. And even after I agreed on the correct way to do it (which I was never opposed to in the first place, given that I described it in my OP), and on the correct terminology for the wire (which is irrelevant in this context), you are still trying to argue about something. And the points you are trying to argue, such as the meaning of the word "misnomer", I am quite familiar with; rendering your statement:
Especially about a topic you know so little about?
Meaningless.
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so please don't debate the terminology and piss of people who actually take the time to try and help you.
Okay, so when I said that it was the correct terminology:
But anyway, it is good to know that the "correct terminology" in this case is a misnomer.
You interpreted that as "debating" the terminology? LOL. You do realize that terminology can be both correct and a misnomer simultaneously, right?
That is called you being a "smart ass".
Since we are in the dictionary in your conversations all the time, please take the time to look up "smug".
Congrats, you are obviously an expert in the field of wiring. Good luck with your rewiring.
PS. The joystick is BROKEN. ;D
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You've already admitted you have no clue what you are talking about by starting this thread, so please don't debate the terminology and piss of people who actually take the time to try and help you.
Don't you guys learn? You keep sitting on this thumbtack and acting surprised when it sticks you.
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You've already admitted you have no clue what you are talking about by starting this thread, so please don't debate the terminology and piss of people who actually take the time to try and help you.
Don't you guys learn? You keep sitting on this thumbtack and acting surprised when it sticks you.
But I keep thinking that the point will fall within ---my bottom----crack so it won't stick me. That's why I'm surprised! :o ;D
(Had to bring some levity back here. :cheers: )
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I'm not sure where you live, but most places require you to get a permit for what you are attempting to do. To get a permit you'll need to get it inspected. You might not think it's alchemy but there's probably a thousand things you don't know about home electrical. If you do it without a permit or at least an inspection you are risking your life and the lives of anyone who use the house now, and in the future. I don't know if your conscience could handle it if you killed a family of 5, 10 years from now due to your wiring prowess, but I couldn't. It's not a project to be taken lightly.
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I'm not sure where you live, but most places require you to get a permit for what you are attempting to do. To get a permit you'll need to get it inspected. You might not think it's alchemy but there's probably a thousand things you don't know about home electrical. If you do it without a permit or at least an inspection you are risking your life and the lives of anyone who use the house now, and in the future. I don't know if your conscience could handle it if you killed a family of 5, 10 years from now due to your wiring prowess, but I couldn't. It's not a project to be taken lightly.
Hot to the circuit breaker (20 amp), ground and neutral to the common bus bar. It isn't even remotely difficult.
This is one of the most ridiculous threads I've ever seen on these forums.
You can go to any hardware store and get a plug that converts a 2 prong wall outlet for use with a 3 prong cord.
There's a wire or flat metal pieces that sticks out of the plug. This wire/piece is screwed to the outlet using the FACE MOUNTING PLATE SCREW.
Amazingly, that's a secure enough connection to ground for every hardware store in the country to sell this product.
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1285936&cp=2568454.2632219.2632235.2632237&parentPage=family (http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1285936&cp=2568454.2632219.2632235.2632237&parentPage=family)
Here's a link to a nation-wide store that sells this infernal, dangerous product.
That is only acceptable if the metal box that the outlet is mounted to is grounded, which would in turn ground the metal body of the outlet so that when you screw down the tab of the adapter to the faceplate screw, it is grounded.
I already said previously that my outlet boxes are not well-grounded (~15 volt reading from hot to outlet box). So you can screw the tab to the face plate mounting screw, but without a good ground at the faceplace mounting screw, what good does it do you?
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Wow.
In a typical lighting panel, the neutral and ground are bonded. Electrically, they should be the same.
Unless its a subpanel. Then, you back out the bonding screw - you can't have neutral and ground bonded at more than one place in the system, only at the main panel.
The ground is not designed to carry current during normal operation.
Power flows in the hot, and returns via the neutral. An imbalance in this flow is what trips a GFCI - something is leaking to ground.
OK, now that power 101 is out of the way.
Can you replace a 2 prong outlet with a 3 prong outlet? Physically, yes. Tie the neutral and ground together. For the short term, it'll do what you expect - any voltage making it to chassis ground will short and trip the breaker.
Is it safe?
No. Accidentally reverse the polarity somewhere, and you'll have a hot chassis. Bad.
Is it legal?
No. The NEC disallows it. They're kinda fond of the life-safety stuff.
Would I do it?
No.
Should you do it?
No.
What would I do?
Buy a two prong outlet if you simply need to replace an old outlet - they do still sell them. Otherwise, run the wire, install the box, and get a REAL electrician to terminate at the LP. If you use 14ga wire, terminate on a 15A breaker - if you use 12 wire, terminate on a 20A breaker. Don't use 16 wire - I have no clue why the home despot type places even sell it anymore.
I'm a control electrician in real life - but even I won't do residential wiring unless its a straight replacement.
YMMV. I only work in control panels - which is a whole different world when it comes to code.
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You don't have to break off the ground pin from your plugs - DUH! :D
Who said anything about breaking the ground pin from my plugs?
Or deal with this 'illegal modifications that require permits' BS that only applies to a few states.
15VAC is nothing, btw.
15 VAC means the metal body of the outlet is not well-grounded. That in turn means that I can't just use a 3-prong adaptor because the face-plate screw is not a good ground in my case. If it was a good ground, then it would measure ~120 VAC between the hot and the faceplate screw, rather than ~15 VAC.
What would I do?
Buy a two prong outlet if you simply need to replace an old outlet - they do still sell them. Otherwise, run the wire, install the box, and get a REAL electrician to terminate at the LP. If you use 14ga wire, terminate on a 15A breaker - if you use 12 wire, terminate on a 20A breaker. Don't use 16 wire - I have no clue why the home despot type places even sell it anymore.
A real electrician is going to connect the black hot wire to the 20 amp breaker, and the white neutral and green or bare ground to the single common bus bar, right?
An electrician is not needed for something so simple.
BTW, I didn't start this thread because I needed to know the correct way of wiring a 3-prong outlet. I already know how to do that. You wire it exactly the same as the existing 2-prong outlet with respect to the hot and neutral wires, and then the ground wire terminates at the common bus bar in the breaker box, and on the ground screw on the outlet.
I started this thread because it would be less tedious (running new wire behind the walls, through the floors, along the basement ceiling, etc., = tedious—the actual electrical termination is the easy part) to jump a short wire from the ground screw on the outlet to the neutral screw on the outlet. The reason I considered and asked about this option is because it is the electrical equivalent of doing it the standard way.
Now, some people have pointed out reasons why it wouldn't be a good idea, due to the physical differences between the two wiring methods, and that's fine—I agree, and plan to do it the standard, approved, correct, whatever-you-want-to-call-it, way. I said as much in reply #19.
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You don't have to break off the ground pin from your plugs - DUH! :D
Who said anything about breaking the ground pin from my plugs?
Or deal with this 'illegal modifications that require permits' BS that only applies to a few states.
15VAC is nothing, btw.
15 VAC means the metal body of the outlet is not well-grounded. That in turn means that I can't just use a 3-prong adaptor because the face-plate screw is not a good ground in my case. If it was a good ground, then it would measure ~120 VAC between the hot and the faceplate screw, rather than ~15 VAC.
What would I do?
Buy a two prong outlet if you simply need to replace an old outlet - they do still sell them. Otherwise, run the wire, install the box, and get a REAL electrician to terminate at the LP. If you use 14ga wire, terminate on a 15A breaker - if you use 12 wire, terminate on a 20A breaker. Don't use 16 wire - I have no clue why the home despot type places even sell it anymore.
A real electrician is going to connect the black hot wire to the 20 amp breaker, and the white neutral and green or bare ground to the single common bus bar, right?
An electrician is not needed for something so simple.
BTW, I didn't start this thread because I needed to know the correct way of wiring a 3-prong outlet. I already know how to do that. You wire it exactly the same as the existing 2-prong outlet with respect to the hot and neutral wires, and then the ground wire terminates at the common bus bar in the breaker box, and on the ground screw on the outlet.
I started this thread because it would be less tedious (running new wire behind the walls, through the floors, along the basement ceiling, etc., = tedious—the actual electrical termination is the easy part) to jump a short wire from the ground screw on the outlet to the neutral screw on the outlet. The reason I considered and asked about this option is because it is the electrical equivalent of doing it the standard way.
Now, some people have pointed out reasons why it wouldn't be a good idea, due to the physical differences between the two wiring methods, and that's fine—I agree, and plan to do it the standard, approved, correct, whatever-you-want-to-call-it, way. I said as much in reply #19.
oh Maxim, you slay me. :)
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Ask a fireman how much tedium he thinks you should endure when working on your house wiring.
I have been calling around to electricians all damn week trying to get one out to run a new circuit in my basement. Not one has freakin' called back. That is always my major frustration with small jobs like this - it's not a $1000 job so the electricians aren't interested in it.
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Personally I would be more concerned about wiring that an electrician has done burning down my house than my own work. I have seen some pretty dumb things electricians have done that I would never do.
No offense to any electricians here of course. I'm sure the vast majority don't leave bare live wires exposed in a capped ceiling box, and tighten connections properly etc, etc. There are however those who don't really know what they are doing, or don't really care in every profession. When doing the work yourself you have more of a vested interest in making sure it is done right and safely. Its a given that you must know what you are doing...if you don't, hire someone of course.
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Ask a fireman how much tedium he thinks you should endure when working on your house wiring.
The only difference between the existing wiring to the outlet and the wiring for a 3-prong outlet is a single additional wire connected to the ground screw at the outlet, and to the common bus bar at the breaker box. It would be harder to get it wrong than to get it right.
What part of that do you suspect would burn down the house? Do you think I'm planning to do it while blindfolded and drunk or something?
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Does the circuit daisy-chain to any other circuits upstream or downstream? Is it back-fed anywhere? Are you using the right gauge wire for the amperage? Are you going to follow the proper pathway for the wiring as required by code? Did the previous installer? Has the code changed since it was installed so that you can't follow the existing pathway? Are there any particular circumstances due to materials used in your house construction that will affect what and how you wire? Will your wiring go through any plenum spaces, possibly requiring different wire? Do you know everything a certified electrician knows that might come into play? Are there any special code requirements in your state? city? Local county ordinance? Do you have the legal right to wire your own house without a permit or inspection by a certified electrician? Are there any people whose lives you might be putting at risk besides your own, such as family in the house or shared walls with other houses/apartments?
Are you ever going to sell the house? If you've done something against code even if you've wired it "correctly", after the sale you can be liable for the cost of bringing it up to code -- much less your liability after the sale if you did it incorrectly. God forbid you sell the house, something happens with the electrical system even if you did it "correctly" and they bring civil suit against you since it wasn't installed by a certified electrician.
It's rare I see things in plain black and white but there's no ambiguity here. Even if you think you know what you're doing, you aren't the only one with a stake here. Family, neighbors, future property owners, and county/city/state entities all have an interest in modifications like this that you make to your home.
If you're sure you know what you're doing and you're aware of all the pertinent codes and regulations you're legally obligated to follow, I'd wire it myself to save the expense and then have a certified electrician inspect it to satisfy code and "oops" issues to protect yourself, loved ones, as well as to avoid liability down the road. If not, pay to have an electrician do the whole thing.
Anything else is just damned foolish.
--- saint
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Will your insurance company honor your insurance in case of electrical fire, even if it wasn't your fault, if it's discovered the wiring was done by you instead of a professional?
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Ask a fireman how much tedium he thinks you should endure when working on your house wiring.
The only difference between the existing wiring to the outlet and the wiring for a 3-prong outlet is a single additional wire connected to the ground screw at the outlet, and to the common bus bar at the breaker box. It would be harder to get it wrong than to get it right.
What part of that do you suspect would burn down the house? Do you think I'm planning to do it while blindfolded and drunk or something?
A ground wire is meant to be a DEDICATED route to ground. There is never supposed to be any load on a ground wire at all unless something is wrong - in the case current is drawn thru the ground wire, the extra load usually kicks the breaker. That is where the difference between neutral and ground is that you keep missing.
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A ground wire is meant to be a DEDICATED route to ground. There is never supposed to be any load on a ground wire at all unless something is wrong - in the case current is drawn thru the ground wire, the extra load usually kicks the breaker. That is where the difference between neutral and ground is that you keep missing.
Thats the theory, as long as its a hard short. A heater element shorting against a metal heater case? Blown breaker. You wouldn't pull 20A if you grabbed hot and, oh, say, a grounded water pipe. Thats where the GFCI kicks in - it monitors the imbalance between hot and neutral - even if it is only microamps.
Grab hot and ground with your hands and you become a 200A biological fuse - you won't burn open, and you won't pull enough current to trip the breaker. Your loved ones will find you before the breaker kicks.
I've been hit with 480, phase to phase - luckily it was the back of my hand that brushed the buss bars. My arm muscles spasmed, pulling my hand away and knocking me off the ladder. Had I grabbed that bar, I wouldn't be here typing.
Go ahead and wire it how you want, Maxim. Do us a favor tho, and bookmark this for future use: http://www.darwinawards.com/
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I love that site.
In order to qualify for a Darwin Award, a person must remove himself from the gene pool via an "astounding misapplication of judgment." Three litres of sherry up the butt can only be described as astounding. Unsurprisingly, his neighbors said they were surprised to learn of the incident.
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Go ahead and wire it how you want, Maxim. Do us a favor tho, and bookmark this for future use: http://www.darwinawards.com/
Have you actually read anything I've typed? Do I need to draw a picture? And in regard to "Darwin Awards", you are the one who has gotten jolted:
I've been hit with 480, phase to phase - luckily it was the back of my hand that brushed the buss bars. My arm muscles spasmed, pulling my hand away and knocking me off the ladder. Had I grabbed that bar, I wouldn't be here typing.
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I have been calling around to electricians all damn week trying to get one out to run a new circuit in my basement. Not one has freakin' called back. That is always my major frustration with small jobs like this - it's not a $1000 job so the electricians aren't interested in it.
Geesh, after all week of calling around, finally got a decent rep electrician to agree to come out on monday to do this job. Dude wants to do it at 7am on new year's eve, though. :P Hopefully this isn't going to cost me hundreds... one line, through one open framed wall, with 3-4 quad boxes (depending on what the code is regarding proximity of them). As close to the breaker box as could be.
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Ask a fireman how much tedium he thinks you should endure when working on your house wiring.
The only difference between the existing wiring to the outlet and the wiring for a 3-prong outlet is a single additional wire connected to the ground screw at the outlet, and to the common bus bar at the breaker box. It would be harder to get it wrong than to get it right.
What part of that do you suspect would burn down the house? Do you think I'm planning to do it while blindfolded and drunk or something?
A ground wire is meant to be a DEDICATED route to ground. There is never supposed to be any load on a ground wire at all unless something is wrong - in the case current is drawn thru the ground wire, the extra load usually kicks the breaker. That is where the difference between neutral and ground is that you keep missing.
No, I don't keep missing that. You think I am missing that because you are either not reading what I've typed or you are failing to comprehend what I've typed. How many times do I have to say that I'm already planning to do it the correct way before it sinks in? Read reply #19 again.
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I'm having trouble deciding who the bigger moran is ... PBJ for spouting off with 0% understanding of how electricity works or Maxim for spouting off about how easy it is when he is the one who asked the question in the first place and has pretty much ignored/overlooked the landslide of valid points raised and thinks that we are all missing his comptence.
When I was a kid, my family moved to a new city and rented a house for a year. The owner had done his own wiring. At the end of the year, we moved to a new house. 3 weeks later the house burned to the ground due to .... bad wiring.
In properties that I have owned myself, I have run all my own power and I have had a licensed electrician come in and inspect/double-check for me. For stuff where I am not 100% comfortable, I have a pro come in.
My family is worth it.
Rule 1: Know the code. If you don't know the code, look it up.
Rule 2: Know your homeowner's policy.
Rule 3: If you have to ask on a forum like this, chances are that you haven't satisfied 1 or 2.
:dunno
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I just pay someone that knows. I'll eff around with a lot of things... house wiring is not one of them. Plus I like my homeowner's insurance.
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Does the circuit daisy-chain to any other circuits upstream or downstream?
Yes.
Is it back-fed anywhere?
No.
Are you using the right gauge wire for the amperage?
Yes (12 AWG).
Are you going to follow the proper pathway for the wiring as required by code? Did the previous installer? Has the code changed since it was installed so that you can't follow the existing pathway?
I'm going to follow the pathway of the existing wiring. Given that, these questions are irrelevant, because with regard to the code-correctness of the pathway, that status doesn't change whether I replace the wiring or do nothing.
Are there any particular circumstances due to materials used in your house construction that will affect what and how you wire? Will your wiring go through any plenum spaces, possibly requiring different wire? Do you know everything a certified electrician knows that might come into play? Are there any special code requirements in your state? city? Local county ordinance? Do you have the legal right to wire your own house without a permit or inspection by a certified electrician? Are there any people whose lives you might be putting at risk besides your own, such as family in the house or shared walls with other houses/apartments?
Again, nothing is changing here except for the fact that there will now be a ground wire running from the ground screw on the new outlet to the bus bar in the breaker box.
Are you ever going to sell the house?
No.
It's rare I see things in plain black and white but there's no ambiguity here. Even if you think you know what you're doing, you aren't the only one with a stake here. Family, neighbors, future property owners, and county/city/state entities all have an interest in modifications like this that you make to your home.
If you're sure you know what you're doing and you're aware of all the pertinent codes and regulations you're legally obligated to follow, I'd wire it myself to save the expense and then have a certified electrician inspect it to satisfy code and "oops" issues to protect yourself, loved ones, as well as to avoid liability down the road. If not, pay to have an electrician do the whole thing.
Anything else is just damned foolish.
--- saint
You could issue a similar warning to someone planning to change their own fuse.
And BTW, adding a ground wire is very minor as far as "modifications" go.
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I'm having trouble deciding who the bigger moran is ... PBJ for spouting off with 0% understanding of how electricity works or Maxim for spouting off about how easy it is when he is the one who asked the question in the first place and has pretty much ignored/overlooked the landslide of valid points raised and thinks that we are all missing his comptence.
Or CheffoJeffo, who has just established himself as a "moron".
Now, regarding the question I asked in the OP:
rather than replacing the entire run of wire with 3-conductor wire or adding an additional full-length ground wire back to the breaker box?
Note that I am already well aware of the "correct" way of doing it, you know, since I described it right there in the OP.
Now, from my infamous "reply #19" which no one seems to be able to read:
In any event, I'm going to wire the new outlets correctly, with new 3-conductor wire from the hardware store, made for the task (hot to circuit breaker, neutral and ground to the common bus bar).
Here I establish that I plan go with the option I described in the OP. Here is the quote again:
rather than replacing the entire run of wire with 3-conductor wire or adding an additional full-length ground wire back to the breaker box?
So what I have been saying is easy, is not what I originally asked about. Follow that do you?
Oh, and about the "ignored/overlooked the landslide of valid points" claim that only exists in your fantasy world, here are some more quotes for you:
Read the first part of your first post. And even after I agreed on the correct way to do it
Now, some people have pointed out reasons why it wouldn't be a good idea, due to the physical differences between the two wiring methods, and that's fine—I agree, and plan to do it the standard, approved, correct, whatever-you-want-to-call-it, way. I said as much in reply #19.
People have been preaching to the choir since "reply #19". The only thing I disagree with is that an electrician is necessary to add a ground wire from the outlet to the bus bar.
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People have been preaching to the choir since "reply #19". The only thing I disagree with is that an electrician is necessary to add a ground wire from the outlet to the bus bar.
What does your local code say ? Your homeowners policy ?
If your plans are cool with both of those, then my objections are removed (hey, I run my own wiring!). You haven't indicated, however, that this is the case.
This is just another case of someone looking for advice over the Innernets, then ignoring the advice that they don't like.
Maxim is the new USSE.
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I'm going to follow the pathway of the existing wiring. Given that, these questions are irrelevant, because with regard to the code-correctness of the pathway, that status doesn't change whether I replace the wiring or do nothing.
Heh. I work for the school system locally. We have schools that are reasonably old that we can occupy with students. However, if we shut them down, we cannot reopen them later without renovation because the code has changed. Codes and standards change. Just because it was acceptable when your house was built doesn't mean it is now. For instance, is it even allowed to install 2-prong outlets anymore in new construction? The status can very well change when you replace the wiring if code has changed. Have you checked?
Are there any particular circumstances due to materials used in your house construction that will affect what and how you wire? Will your wiring go through any plenum spaces, possibly requiring different wire? Do you know everything a certified electrician knows that might come into play? Are there any special code requirements in your state? city? Local county ordinance? Do you have the legal right to wire your own house without a permit or inspection by a certified electrician? Are there any people whose lives you might be putting at risk besides your own, such as family in the house or shared walls with other houses/apartments?
Again, nothing is changing here except for the fact that there will now be a ground wire running from the ground screw on the new outlet to the bus bar in the breaker box.
You're pulling out old wiring and installing new wiring, or at the least you're adding an additional wire pull to the existing wiring. That's a change to the infrastructure. I'd be interested to see what your local applicable government agency thinks as to whether or not you're making a change requiring a permit.
Are you ever going to sell the house?
No.
Heh. OK.
It's rare I see things in plain black and white but there's no ambiguity here. Even if you think you know what you're doing, you aren't the only one with a stake here. Family, neighbors, future property owners, and county/city/state entities all have an interest in modifications like this that you make to your home.
If you're sure you know what you're doing and you're aware of all the pertinent codes and regulations you're legally obligated to follow, I'd wire it myself to save the expense and then have a certified electrician inspect it to satisfy code and "oops" issues to protect yourself, loved ones, as well as to avoid liability down the road. If not, pay to have an electrician do the whole thing.
Anything else is just damned foolish.
--- saint
You could issue a similar warning to someone planning to change their own fuse.
No. Perhaps if we were discussing replacing an outlet with an identical outlet. You're running new wire inside the walls of your house. I deal with low voltage wiring all the time in my job. I have to satisfy the fire marshall and ensure my vendors follow local and state regulations. I cannot believe that low voltage cabling has a higher requirement for oversight than high voltage.
Here - simple question. Yes or no. *Have* you checked with your local government office to see if there are any requirements you have to follow before you add a simple ground wire?
I notice you didn't answer the question about whether or not your insurance will honor your coverage if you do your own wiring and don't have it professionally inspected. Have you checked with your homeowner's insurance company?
:dunno -- if you haven't called your local government agency and your insurance company maybe you should consider it. You don't have to tell us you did it. Good luck!
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Heh. I work for the school system locally. We have schools that are reasonably old that we can occupy with students. However, if we shut them down, we cannot reopen them later without renovation because the code has changed. Codes and standards change. Just because it was acceptable when your house was built doesn't mean it is now. For instance, is it even allowed to install 2-prong outlets anymore in new construction? The status can very well change when you replace the wiring if code has changed. Have you checked?
I understand that. But what I was saying is, that if the code has changed since my existing wiring was installed, then the pathway is against the code now even if I do nothing. Replacing the wire or adding a ground wire along the same pathway doesn't change anything with respect to the code-correctness of the pathway. If it is wrong now, it will be wrong to the same degree after replacing the wire. If it is right now, it will also be right when the wire is replaced.
Besides, it is very unlikely that there is anything wrong with the pathway. We are talking about 3 outlets daisy-chained in parallel on the first floor whose wiring only goes a few inches in the wall before it goes through the floor/basement ceiling, and runs along a clear path along the basement ceiling to the breaker box, which is about 20 feet from the furthest of the 3 outlets.
And I must say, I'm surprised at the number of bureaucrats on this thread.
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And in regard to "Darwin Awards", you are the one who has gotten jolted:
Nah, I lose on rule #2.
Reproduction
Out of the gene pool: dead or sterile.
Excellence
Astounding misapplication of judgment.
Self-Selection
Cause one's own demise.
Maturity
Capable of sound judgment.
Veracity
The event must be true.
I didn't make a bad judgement call - it was an accident (and a preventable one, at that).
Think you'd be running on all cylinders, tho.
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I just installed a new AC outlet junction box myself tonight for a new game cabinet I'm putting in the gameroom. And yes, it met code...because there is no code where I live. :)
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And in regard to "Darwin Awards", you are the one who has gotten jolted:
Nah, I lose on rule #2.
Reproduction
Out of the gene pool: dead or sterile.
Excellence
Astounding misapplication of judgment.
Self-Selection
Cause one's own demise.
Maturity
Capable of sound judgment.
Veracity
The event must be true.
I didn't make a bad judgement call - it was an accident (and a preventable one, at that).
So working on a ladder with your hand close to live current is what? A case of good judgment?
Think you'd be running on all cylinders, tho.
Yes, because running a ground wire from the ground screw on the outlet to the bus bar in the breaker box, is clearly a case of "astounding misapplication of judgment" (lol). Also, with the main breaker off, it is highly likely to make me "dead or sterile" (lol). That's because electricity is magical and mystical, with no rhyme or reason to it whatsoever. I don't need a REAL Electrician™, I need a wizard.
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So working on a ladder with your hand close to live current is what? A case of good judgment?
Its a case of doing something you've been trained to do.
A firefighter is trained to go into a burning house to pull people out. Good or bad judgement on his part?
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Guys, this little one is not worth the effort. Come, let me get you something.
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I understand that. But what I was saying is, that if the code has changed since my existing wiring was installed, then the pathway is against the code now even if I do nothing. Replacing the wire or adding a ground wire along the same pathway doesn't change anything with respect to the code-correctness of the pathway. If it is wrong now, it will be wrong to the same degree after replacing the wire. If it is right now, it will also be right when the wire is replaced.
No, at least not as far as legal liability and such go. Leaving it as is with the older code standards is fine. Upgrading it without upgrading to the newer code standards is not. That's why we can continue to occupy older schools, but once we shut them down we can't reopen them without renovations.
And I must say, I'm surprised at the number of bureaucrats on this thread.
Heh. You asked the questions. You know, if essentially everyone who responds to you is giving you advice you don't agree with, then maybe it's you who isn't looking at it clearly? Nah.... probably not. ;)
Did you ever check with your local government and insurance company?
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Did you ever check with your local government and insurance company?
Saint hit the nail on the head.
Forget us, why don't you go ask your local electrical inspector if its a good idea.
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I am having trouble figuring out why he asked the question to begin with.
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Ok, maybe I missed it somewhere amongst all this, but I have to ask.... is the breaker panel itself even equipped to do this properly? Does it have a true earth ground?
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Ok, maybe I missed it somewhere amongst all this, but I have to ask.... is the breaker panel itself even equipped to do this properly? Does it have a true earth ground?
My guess is not, since he thinks that grounds are just the same bus bar on the panel as the neutrals. My guess is his neutrals are grounded to the water pipes, with no independent path to ground. What he doesn't get is redundancy. The second ground wire is supposed to come into play if something happens to the neutral wire (say it is severed or shorted). The ground wire gives a secondary, independent path to ground (as opposed to through your hand and out the bottom of your feet). On my bureaucratic breaker panel, there is a grounded bar for the neutral (white) wire and a second common bar, for a second dedicated ground. I assume there is two rods in the ground somewhere outside, as there are two huge stranded copper leads coming into the box. I assume because I'm not an electrician. We might as well continue to talk as if he's not here, as he's not listening anyway. He's likely gone and purchased the cheater idiot-box ground plug (from now on known as the "pbj easy-as-cheap box" so that he can safely plug in his freezer, ice maker, 52" tv and stereo in there (of course on one of those huge power bars that have those pesky 3rd prong!). Also I won't mention that we're all advising him to check with a government inspector, not because we're all just in love with the government, but that it's a potentially life-risking alteration he's thinking of making, even if he doesn't see it that way.
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Its a case of doing something you've been trained to do.
A firefighter is trained to go into a burning house to pull people out. Good or bad judgement on his part?
Simply turning an out-of-control fire off isn't an option, and in the meantime, people's lives are in immediate danger. This is hardly analogous to working around electricity.
No, at least not as far as legal liability and such go. Leaving it as is with the older code standards is fine. Upgrading it without upgrading to the newer code standards is not. That's why we can continue to occupy older schools, but once we shut them down we can't reopen them without renovations.
And that is of course, logically ridiculous, but a typical case of bureaucracy.
Heh. You asked the questions. You know, if essentially everyone who responds to you is giving you advice you don't agree with, then maybe it's you who isn't looking at it clearly? Nah.... probably not. ;)
Where did I ask about codes/red tape? I asked strictly about an alternate method of wiring, a method that does work and that some people (including some electricians) do use. I made it clear that I decided not to go with the alternate method in reply #19.
Did you ever check with your local government and insurance company?
No, but then, I wouldn't be doing anything until at least spring anyway (cutting the power to work on something would make it cold in here pretty quickly).
I am having trouble figuring out why he asked the question to begin with.
That's because you clearly haven't been paying attention.
Ok, maybe I missed it somewhere amongst all this, but I have to ask.... is the breaker panel itself even equipped to do this properly? Does it have a true earth ground?
Yes.
My guess is not, since he thinks that grounds are just the same bus bar on the panel as the neutrals.
Some breaker panels have 2 bus bars, one for neutral and one for ground. Others only have one, in which case, both the neutral and ground go there. Either case is the same result, as you will get continuity between neutral and ground regardless. You get redundancy do to the physical separation of the neutral and ground wires all the way to the breaker box, so the neutral can break anywhere along that line with the ground wire remaining intact.
He's likely gone and purchased the cheater idiot-box ground plug (from now on known as the "pbj easy-as-cheap box"
Yes, that's very likely, especially since I'm the only one that actually corrected "PBJ" on this thread regarding his faulty reasoning.
BTW, my major appliances are already on 3-prong outlets, and in some cases, are wired for 220, and have been for years.
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Again, since you're the resident electrical expert, why did you post this question? Seriously brother, look at you, you're arguing with 5 or 6 different people in one post (AGAIN). Do you ever get the feeling that you're doing ANYTHING wrong? I didn't post here to argue with you, I tried to be helpful. I don't care to look, but I can imagine that you have argued points with every single person that tried to help you. You know what? Good luck with your cheater box. Have a great day, and I sincerely hope you don't someday kill someone with your shortcut cheap-as-free "solutions".
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Again, since you're the resident electrical expert, why did you post this question?
Encore une fois. Je ne le comprends pas. Il suce a coup sur. :banghead:
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Again, since you're the resident electrical expert, why did you post this question?
You obviously have reading difficulties. Start with the elusive "reply #19".
Seriously brother, look at you, you're arguing with 5 or 6 different people in one post (AGAIN).
The only thing I'm arguing about is the need for an electrician, who would do it the same way I would.
Do you ever get the feeling that you're doing ANYTHING wrong? I didn't post here to argue with you, I tried to be helpful. I don't care to look, but I can imagine that you have argued points with every single person that tried to help you. You know what? Good luck with your cheater box.
"Cheater box"? This is more evidence of your reading difficulties. Type in the secret code to reveal the ethereal and esoteric "reply #19".
Have a great day, and I sincerely hope you don't someday kill someone with your shortcut cheap-as-free "solutions".
What "shortcut"? Wiring correctly is now considered a "shortcut"?
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Again, since you're the resident electrical expert, why did you post this question?
Encore une fois. Je ne le comprends pas. Il suce a coup sur. :banghead:
Again, the original question I asked was answered to my satisfaction early on in this thread. Nothing has changed since "reply #19". I'm still planning to wire it correctly (something which I knew how to do before starting this thread, which should be clear from reading the OP), and I'm still not planning to have an electrician do it.
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Please reply to this post.
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this thread is for dooshes
see Reply 18
this thread is for dooshes
see 19
--cream-filled twinkie-- is a noun
this thread is for dooshes
:slc
this thread is for dooshes
i'm trying to argue that i'm not arguing
--cream-filled twinkie-- is a noun
you can't read, but you post ok
lemonparty
this thread is for dooshes
:dizzy:
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Ur Momz!
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The real genius here
LOL
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The real genius here
LOL
cheater box! blow up your house! argue!
=J
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You're not planning to have an electrician do it, because he is likely to do it EXACTLY the way you plan to do it, yet a day ago you didn't have clue 1 about electrical plugs. your genius has no bounds. Why did you turn this into a US vs YOU? Like seriously, picking apart each line of a response and refuting each line, christ that's a major personality dysfunction. I could see if I was attacking your precious nintendo joysticks, but I'm just a guy who has 'flipped' 20 properties, owns 10, has sat through hundreds of home inspections, and seen the results of genius do-it-yourselfers firsthand. Even with that much experience, I HAD to respond to your question, with absolutely no malice AT ALL intended, to try and point out that the problem MAY be bigger than the band-aid fix you were looking for (see precious answer #19). In my system, the neutrals are NOT on the same ground as the dedicated grounds (in fact I just looked, and the main breaker box itself is on one ground wire heading outside, and the neutral bar is connected to the other wire. A third wire runs to the water main, which I assume means there are 3 routes to ground. Redundancy.
What our POINT was, was that doing what you're doing, without a permit and/or inspection, will likely not be to code, since you are altering the existing arrangement. Do you even know the way to run the wire (to code), or if you're going to need a new dedicated ground wired to the breaker box if you intend to install a new grounded cicuit to it? Are you going to add a new breaker or fuse, or just double up on an existing one? How do you intend to get it in the box? Just loosen a clamp and shove it in? What will you do with the existing wire in the receptacle box, that will likely be live? Did you ask your insurance company as saint has asked??
Do you SEEEEEEEEEEE why we kinda feel you're being stubborn and dangerous? You stopped listening to anything past your beloved post #19 and just flipped on the argue switch. From my point of view, what you are doing is dangerous because you simply don't know what electrical code is, or even care WHY that code exists. I don't for a minute think that you are incapable of doing anything an electrician can do, I just worry that there are a lot of things you just don't know (just as there are things -I- don't know, even though I have seen a lot).
Please don't pick all this apart. Pulling out the bits you want to argue and discarding the bits you can't argue is weird. This isn't an argument. Well I guess that's the way it turned out, but it wasn't intended as such.
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Allow me
you're not planning to have an electrician do it, because he is likely to do it EXACTLY the way you plan to do it, yet a day ago you didn't have clue 1 about electrical plugs. your genius has no bounds.
do you read? see 19
Why did you turn this into a US vs YOU? Like seriously, picking apart each line of a response and refuting each line, christ that's a major personality dysfunction. I could see if I was attacking your precious nintendo joysticks, but I'm just a guy who has 'flipped' 20 properties, owns 10, has sat through hundreds of home inspections, and seen the results
seriously, can't you read?a
of genius do-it-yourselfers firsthand...and even with that much experience, I HAD to respond to your question, with absolutely no malice AT ALL intended, to try and point out that the problem MAY be bigger than the band-aid fix you were looking for (see precious answer #19). In my system, the neutrals are NOT on the same ground as the dedicated grounds (in fact I just looked, and the main breaker box itself is on one ground wire
nintendo rulez
heading outside, and the neutral bar is connected to the other wire. A third wire runs to the water main, which I assume means there are 3 routes to ground. Redundancy.
:slc:slc:slc:slc:slc:slc:slc:slc:slc:slc
What our POINT was, was that doing what you're doing, without a permit and/or inspection, will likely not be to code, since you are altering the existing arrangement. Do you even know the way to run the wire (to code), or if you're going to need a new dedicated ground wired to the breaker box if you intend to install a new grounded cicuit to it? Are you going to add a new breaker or fuse, or just double up on an existing on
see 19.5
e? How do you intend to get it in the box? Just loosen a clamp and shove it in? What will you do with the existing wire in the box, that will likely be live? Did you ask your insurance company as saint has asked??
are you inferior?
Do you SEEEEEEEEEEE why we kinda feel you're being stubborn and dangerous? You stopped listening to anything past your beloved post #19 and just flipped on the argue switch. From my point of view, what you are doing is dangerous because you simply don't know what electrical code is, or even care WHY that code exists. I don't for a minute think that you are incapable of doing anything an electrician can do, I just worry that there are a lot of things you just don't know (just as there are things -I- don't know, even though I have seen a lot).
i love nintendoz
Please don't pick all this apart. Pulling out the bits you want to argue and discarding the bits you can't argue is weird. This isn't an argument. Well I guess that's the way it turned out, but it wasn't intended as such.
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You're not planning to have an electrician do it, because he is likely to do it EXACTLY the way you plan to do it, yet a day ago you didn't have clue 1 about electrical plugs.
You are making stuff up.
I HAD to respond to your question, with absolutely no malice AT ALL intended, to try and point out that the problem MAY be bigger than the band-aid fix you were looking for (see precious answer #19).
Reply #19 makes no mention of a "Band-Aid fix", unless you think that wiring correctly means "Band-Aid fix".
In my system, the neutrals are NOT on the same ground as the dedicated grounds (in fact I just looked, and the main breaker box itself is on one ground wire heading outside, and the neutral bar is connected to the other wire. A third wire runs to the water main, which I assume means there are 3 routes to ground. Redundancy.
That has nothing to do with anything.
What our POINT was, was that doing what you're doing, without a permit and/or inspection, will likely not be to code, since you are altering the existing arrangement. Do you even know the way to run the wire (to code), or if you're going to need a new dedicated ground wired to the breaker box if you intend to install a new grounded cicuit to it?
I think you missed the fact that there are already 3-prong outlets in this house for the major appliances. And yes, they were installed by an electrician years ago. They ground to the same bus bar that the neutrals do. I already told you that not all breaker boxes have two bus bars, and neither are two bus bars necessary in order to have correctly-wired 3-prong outlets.
Edit: Here is a link for you:
Note: Some boxes will have two bus bars, one for the ground wire, one for the neutral. Others will have only one bus bar for both neutral and ground.
http://www.doityourself.com/stry/homewiringbreakerbox
Are you going to add a new breaker or fuse, or just double up on an existing one?
See, this indicates that you don't even understand what I'm planning to do. If you replace the wiring, you use the same breaker that the old wiring was on. Alternatively, you can just add a ground wire alongside the original run, in which case you wouldn't touch the original wiring at all, nor its breaker switch. You would simply terminate one end at the ground screw on the outlet, and the other end at the bus bar.
How do you intend to get it in the box? Just loosen a clamp and shove it in? What will you do with the existing wire in the receptacle box, that will likely be live?
See above.
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I already said all that.
=J
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Ur Momz
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Ur Momz
ur momz doesn't know how to wire until she posts one message and then argues!
=J
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Maxi, do what you're going to do. Best of luck with reply #19. I am TRULY sorry I tried to help. Seriously. Deeply. Sorry. No worries, it will NOT happen again.