The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Lightguns => Topic started by: TheAdMan on June 07, 2007, 01:50:41 am
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Additional comments appreciated.
This question was prompted by my discussions with a company who is very interested in entering the lightgun market.
Assume this lightgun would:
a. be durable, reliable, and accurate
b. be operable within 1-5 feet of montior (actualy about 7 feet if u include length of outstretched arms to aim gun)
c. be compatible with PC and mame
d. require a power (probably usb) cable
f. require no LED strips
P.S. I removed the camera thing so that hopefully it will ease some of the technical debate - not that it isn't welcome, but this WAS supposed to be a "What if" Question about a hypothetical product. I was just trying to give the voters as much info as possible about what this product may be like if it existed. - sorry for the confusion.
Belated Disclaimer: I posses absolutely no knowledge or know-how that would enable me to build this lightgun myself, I am a complete noob, any noob ideas or suggestions I may or may have made/make are simply that - noob suggestions.
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What's wrong with the LED strips? I kind of like the idea of them since you can easily hide it behind the bezel around the edges of your monitor.
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Assume this lightgun would:
a. be durable, reliable, and accurate
Not if it uses a camera above the monitor it won't be.....
f. require no LED strips
You're trying to re-invent the wheel here....... Namco and Sega, have both been developing and using real world systems using LED IR emitters around the monitor, for several years now. Simply because they are the most accurate and reliable way of positioning the gun. The camera system you describe as being placed as a single camera above the monitor will not work because it is not multi aspect and therefore can not accurately place an object in 3D space in front of the monitor nor can it determine exactly and accurately, where the object is pointing.
This is exactly why the "Sony" system that they tried to sell a couple of years ago was abandoned!! simply because they couldn't make it work.
As for coming in here to get us to do your FREE market research for you, because you're either too lazy or too cheap to go do the job properly, DREAM ON! You don't apear to have made any posts except for this one and will more than likely disappear again afterwards.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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There are already lcd guns sold for less than $30 so I doubt you could fetch much more than that.
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You're trying to re-invent the wheel here....... Namco and Sega, have both been developing and using real world systems using LED IR emitters around the monitor, for several years now. Simply because they are the most accurate and reliable way of positioning the gun. The camera system you describe as being placed as a single camera above the monitor will not work because it is not multi aspect and therefore can not accurately place an object in 3D space in front of the monitor nor can it determine exactly and accurately, where the object is pointing.
actually this camera system is unique for that reason, it detects 6 ranges of motion, zoom, pan, vert & horz position, & swivel & tilt rotation.
The company is Naturalpoint - www.naturalpoint.com (and I don't work 4 them, trust me I'm not getting paid for this - although maybe I should) , the developers of the TrackIR head tracking system used for flight sims - it allows you to look around while flying by just turning your head- in any direction your head can possibly move. check out some demos:
http://youtube.com/results?search_query=trackir&search=Search
As for coming in here to get us to do your FREE market research for you, because you're either too lazy or too cheap to go do the job properly, DREAM ON! You don't apear to have made any posts except for this one and will more than likely disappear again afterwards.
Can you try not being a :censored: for once in your life. I'm just asking a question trying to get support for a product that I want for my own system. This is my first post, but I frequent this site - I just dont have the time or money to build my own MAME machine so I just lurk - probably should have kept it that way. :badmood:
Anyway the people at Natural point have been very receptive and polite and I think they have the technology to pull it off - I thought I would find support for such a product on a forum like this since most casual users are too cheap to spend money on a quality product.
Here are excerpts from my discussions with the folks at Naturalpoint (if ur interested)
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naturalpoint.com wrote:
Hi,
Before I babble at length let me ask you a couple questions that we'd really
appreciate your insights on:
- How much would be willing to pay for a precise light gun that works with
any TV? What is the highest/painful upper end price point you would
consider?
- Any guess at the number of PC users (specifically) who are eagerly
awaiting a light gun?
- Can you suggest any sites focused on this, where we could discuss with the
community?
* Business Issues:
It has been our minds for a while. But past marketing guys who've passed
through our company have used light guns specifically as an example of how
specialized peripherals never do well on console game platforms (not enough
developers/games support them, so not enough people buy them).
Plus, most console peripherals are stuck in this vicious cycle of cheapness.
So they feel they need to sell it for less than $40 (because people don't
trust third party peripherals). So to get costs down, they manufacture tons
of them, and use the cheapest parts. (plus console guys usually have patents
on the proper way to make their controller components, so third party people
are forced to use crappy workarounds that don't work as well.) But only like
5 games will support the light gun peripheral. And classically, people have
preferred to buy periphals on a store shelf (instead of online), because it
suggests the company is legit (rarely true though). And getting your product
on store shelves is a very dangerous business gamble (delivering half a
million to walmart for example, and having to buy back any that don't sell).
So when not enough people buy it, that company goes out of business. And the consumers feel burned, and other companies grow more afraid of trying the same thing. So from the business side of things, there is concern.
But we're all about R&D so we are still interested.
* Technical issues:
- TrackIR currently has a range of about 1 foot minimum to 5 feet max (a
question of camera resolution mostly. You'd need LEDs in the gun, which
means a power source. If you try to use reflective material on/in the gun,
then a serious issue with illumination pops up).
Anywho, current TrackIR range means you'd have to be far too close for tv
use. We have new tech (in our OptiTrack product line), with a range up to 20
feet, but we sell these cameras for over $500, so it's doubtful we can bring
that to TrackIR/gaming at the roughly 100 price that gamers want.
- We can do precise 6DOF tracking very well. But figuring out exactly where
the user is in relation to the TV is tricky. We have to figure out how big
the TV is (if I turn the gun 1 degree, that means very different amounts of
target movement on a 17 inch monitor verses a 60 inch tv. And how far I am
from the TV also makes a big difference. And we'd need to figure whether our
camera is mounted flush with the tv screen or not. Etc.).
Usaully people use extra markers to establish a "ground plane" (by laying
something on the floor, or placing strips on the tv as you mention, or the
old LEDs you had to strap to your tv for the powerflove, etc.) to help the
camera figure out what kind of space it's dealing with.
We could get around this by asking people to enter data into software to
indicate exactly how big their tv is, and where the camera is mounted.
(maybe simplify it down to asking people to shoot at the 4 corners of their
screen so we can define it) But both of these solutions require work from
the user who just wants to plug and play, and require more development from
us to minimize the work from them.
Anywho. We appreciate your email, and are interested in this, so I wanted to
share most of our current thoughts on the idea. Please let me know if you
have any other questions, comments, or suggestions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
After explaining that I was specificly talking about a lightgun for PC (and MAME) I replied:
A power cable connecting the gun would not be a problem, most lightguns use cables.
1-5 feet is a perfect distance for most users, even on my 32" TV/Monitor I wouldn't want to sit more than 5 feet away, that was the major complaint with the LIK-SANG Topgun.
At the moment most lightguns have to be calibrated to the monitor, usually multiple times in one sitting, this would be nothing new, the question would be how well does the gun stay callibrated.
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Can you please point me to a good LCD gun that works for MAME
(and when I say good I'm not talking about the LCDTopgun *cough*crap*cough*) :)
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LCDTopgun works fine
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Yeah, from across the room, with velcro stuck on my monitor, a rats nest of wires, no 2 player support, and a laser sight and trigger action that works at random.
I'm talking about a top-notch product not something that works fine but great, I think most people are just satisfied with make-do products.
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A gun game is never much fun if you stand cloes to the screen. If you want arcade feel then you would step back a bit anyway. I'm maybe a meter and a half away and it works fine.
If you integrate it in your cabinet then the led strips can be hidden away easily. Easier than a camera I would say.
You will have cables no matter what solution.
I don't notice the gun working/not working at random.
LCDTopgun does support 2-player games.
I guess the tracking could be better, but I don't see myself paying $500 for a gun that would track slightly more accurate. It's just for fun anyway.
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LCDTopgun does support 2-player games.
Yes, ony have to use the correct drivers...
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I suppose if I were to build my own cabinet I could make-do with the led strips, but you definitely wont catch me velcroing/taping/glueing them to my brand new LCD TV.
I guess the tracking could be better, but I don't see myself paying $500 for a gun that would track slightly more accurate. It's just for fun anyway.
But would you pay $100 for a gun that performed significantly better without the LED's" (if you were to build a new cabinet or other setup) - that's the price they would be targeting for.
you could still step back, the gun itself would operate in a range of 1-5ft, the average persons arms are about 2-2.5 feet, so after you hold the gun up to aim, your feet would be about 7 feet away from the screen. I've played many shooters in the arcade I don't ever remember standing over 7 feet away. (take 7 small steps back from ur monitor to guage the distance).
Oh yeah, BTW, lik-sang is now out of business because sony sued the pants off them.
www.lik-sang.com so after the guns are out of stock, were screwed.
I'm just trying to spark interest among developers, I want to see more products and competitive marketing towards the MAME/home arcade community. does anybody here not agree with that?
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I would be very interested, assuming it will work accurately from the range you describe. I think it's dumb to have to stand 6 feet away from your cabinet to play light gun games (which is why I passed on the LCD Topguns). The only time you would stand that far away is when playing on a showcase style cabinet with a giant screen like House of the Dead -- not playing Hogan's Alley on a 25" monitor.
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The LCDTopGun is not made by lik-sang, but EMS (http://www.hkems.com/product/xbox/LCDTopGun.htm)
and Play-Asia (http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-1i-77-5-49-en-15-ems%2Btop%2Bgun-70-16s7.html) still carries them full-stock..
I, for one, am always interested in hearing about new products to test and compare in the market, thus keeping it fresh and current... If I liked the gun and it got good reviews I might consider purchasing it for 50 or so.... 65-70 max (unless it made coffee)..
I think you should have been WAY more up front with your purpose and reasons for being here (and should have included all your previous correspondence) with your first post, given the nature of it. It's one thing to come up as a new user asking for advice as oneself for your personal project, but you came to a homely community as though you were a "representative of a highly interested company looking to make a good investment"... you should understand the kind of reaction that would get, especially if you plan on staying a member here.
Welcome.
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organic jerk:
I understand, but I didn't have an entire day to spend on a post to explain who I am, why I'm here, why I'm asking, and what I'm asking.
It would be nice if people weren't so judgmental and quick to jump to conclusions. - let the moderators moderate this forum, if i'm breaking rules i'll be more than happy to get banned.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_AO0F5sLdVM
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Well you ended up spending the time to reiterate anyway, no?
It's not so much that people are judgemental, but rather weary and leery of fraudulent users (ie: salespeople popping in to advertise under the guise of "hey guys I'm just a regular guy! look at my cool new stuff!") popping up with "opportunities" and such...
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"As for coming in here to get us to do your FREE market research for you, because you're either too lazy or too cheap to go do the job properly, DREAM ON!"
- no that's not judgmental at all.
can I stop defending myself yet, it's really not why I came here, If you don't want me in your "homely" community i'll gladly leave.
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Again, Fozzy, like many of us, (based on your VERY TINY introductory post), assumed you were a representative of the company (again, a fraudulent user because not up front)..
You're not defending yourself at this point, You're just being very apprehensive for no reason... (especially since it seems you have some support, from me no less) I'm just saying that for future reference being up front with new people would be a good thing... lest you walk into an AA meeting to use the bathroom and they start gushing their feelings at you...
I did say Welcome. I meant Welcome.
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ah who cares... just answer the guy's questions and if you dont believe him then dont reply.
Honestly, I'm cheap as hell so it would have to be under $40... as long as it works well
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The 5-foot max range ruins this for me. I already have a camera-based gun that can be calibrated for the larger range required for projector use.
Also, shens! :P
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I voted ~$40 but if the reviews were awesome and it was basically plug and play with Mame and games like area 51 etc...I'd go up to the next category.
Part of what I want is for the guns to have the same heft and size of the arcade guns.
This will be interesting...
And Welcom Adman! :cheers:
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Under 70.
If it were wireless I'd pay over 70, but under 100.
A shot gun styled gun would be great.
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If you want to get the cost down, make it so it can be attached to virtually ANY gun, and let the purchaser use whatever gun they wish.
The range seems perfect for an arcade cabinet application. Arcade shooting games are usually designed to have the player pretty close to the screen.
It would have to be very accurate to command the high price. But if it is, and it's as plug and play as a mouse (with a calibration app), doesn't require the game to have special drivers to support its use (again, like a mouse), then it seems like it should do well. But understand that it's a niche market, and what works great for us, might not be as attractive to PC gamers as a whole, who might prefer to be further from the monitor.
RandyT
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If you want to get the cost down, make it so it can be attached to virtually ANY gun, and let the purchaser use whatever gun they wish.
I don't get it... wouldn't that type of universal compatibility bring the costs up?
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Not necessarily. Universal things are usually cheaper than item-specific things.
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If you want to get the cost down, make it so it can be attached to virtually ANY gun, and let the purchaser use whatever gun they wish.
Intersesting suggestion, I'll mention that to them if I email them again (or point them to this thread). I suspect the track IR may work by itself, it already works as a mouse/cursor device -and it seems very acurate, check out the youtube links to the TrackIR demo I posted prviously (very cool) - their technology is patented, so you know it's cutting edge.
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The problem with that might be integrating trigger/buttons into a universal format.
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The problem with that might be integrating trigger/buttons into a universal format.
True enough. How about a mini-jack on the side that a low-profile, tactile switch with a self-adhesive (or velcro) back can be plugged into? Either this could be used behind the existing trigger (or instead of), or the user could take additional steps to directly wire the cable ends to the existing trigger switch {assuming one already exists.} If you use a stereo mini-phono jack, you can get left and right buttons. Or you want three, you need the Stereo plus video version.
Obviously, they could also offer a gun that is specifically designed to accept the parts, but there go your tooling costs again. And honestly, the trigger switch is probably the least of this groups worries. Super accurate aiming at a reasonable distance is the problem
RandyT
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BYOAG - Build Your Own Arcade Gun!!!!! That would be slick if you could get the trigger and optics assembly, and you can pick and choose interchangable stocks, such as the shotgun, a rifle (for gogol 13 and silent scope) and pistols. that would be the cat's meow right there :)
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ooh that would be fun. I havn't gotten into the arcade gun controls cause i dont like the available options for the dIY crowd. I could wrap my mind around BYOAG though. the gun is the easy part. I could make some really nifty guns.
if it could be wireless i would convert the 90's han solo blaster or make one similar out of steel.
has anybody tried these (http://www.erealgames.com/)?
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Is the product even available? I can't tell from that website.
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has anybody tried these (http://www.erealgames.com/)?
Wow, that looks exactly like what TheAdMan described.
EDIT: Nevermind, it's useless for me: "Note: G1 does not support multiple players. It is not currently compatible with PC games."
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yeah saw that also :badmood:
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Ahh you found www.erealgames.com, I was highly anticipating the release of their firehawk pc gun - which would have utilized a camera just like the G1, it was supposed t be released this spring, but they hit a snag somewhere and postponed it indefineitly, they even removed the advertisement from their website, it was after I received this news I contacted NaturalPoint - who has better camera technology.
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So tell me again whats wrong with the LCD TopGun?
I have two and they work for me, except I have issues with horizontal mounting of the LED bars, but other than that it works ace with the Xbox and HOTD.
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it was supposed t be released this spring, but they hit a snag somewhere and postponed it indefineitly
The Firehawk was cancelled because it hit the same brick walls as every other system that has tried this. It simply doesn't work. It's only partially possible to track an object with this single point camera system.
If you move from your reference position or change your distance from the camera, the system falls over. The same applies to the Naturalpoint system, even with their most expensive systems they would not be able to track without reference markers.
They themselves point out that right now they need ground reference plane markers in order for their current single point camera systems to track anything.
The resolution necessary in the camera and electronics, in order to track to the degree of accuracy needed for even a 4 pixel resolution on screen at 5 feet away is mind bogglingly huge. It's pointless throwing the actual maths for this at you.
Your lack of understanding of the technology is your downfall here. This simply will not work. Which is precisely why Sega, Namco, Sony, Nintendo, ALL abandoned development testing of this type of system for real arcades as well as for consoles. Why Honda also abandoned development of single point tracking for robotic systems. If they can't make it work with the size of budget they can throw at things, then Naturalpoint have not got a cat in hells chance of building a product like this, for a limited market and bringing it in on budget so that the limited market can afford it, or think it's worth the money.
Whether you like the fact or not, this is entirely a non starter. Quite apart from the fact that the LCD Topgun works fine.... works perfectly well at 5 feet from a 21" screen, and will shortly be working well at 2 feet from the same size screen due to further developments in the pipeline.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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It would be nice if people weren't so judgmental and quick to jump to conclusions. - let the moderators moderate this forum, if i'm breaking rules i'll be more than happy to get banned.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_AO0F5sLdVM
Moderator has no problems with your posts :)
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To me it seems the guy from naturalpoint was concerned about the gun not being 100% plugnplay - meaning no software, no calibration. he goes on to state that they could probably get around this by including software or calibration.
Have you watched the demo's i've posted? What are your thoughts about those?
I may be wrong, but is seems if you can track an object in 3d space then you don't need reference markers.
I don't know I guess I'm just not a "It can't be done" kind of person :)
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these "dots" are far apart though
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The topgun is essentially a single camera device, A sensor (camera) in the gun picks up multiple LED's to position itself. - am I right about that?
Yes.... but it calculates its position from the difference in position between widely spaced multi point IR LED's. As do most currently in use real arcade machines.
Are you now proposing that widely spaced LED's are mounted on a gun.... and even if they are, the rotational (YAW) axis is nearly impossible to calculate with a resolution high enough to be functional. Unless you're talking about a system costing several thousand dollars.
The maths doesn't work when you reverse the system and try to make the camera static and the LED's mobile. Unless of course you want 6" rods poking out of the sides and top of the gun with an IR LED on the top and ends Plus some static floor marker LED's to give it a ground plane to calculate position against.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
PS.... Typed that at the same time as Patrick who clearly understood the unsolvable problem as well. This is exactly the problem that all of those major corporations hit a brick wall with and until you've worked with motion tracking it's impossible to understand how big a problem it really is.
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PS.... Typed that at the same time as Patrick who clearly understood the unsolvable problem as well.
Lol, at least you quoted the statement since now the whole post we responded to is different/gone.
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Why don't you look at the trackIR WITH HEADCLIP (tou tube link I posted --BINGO! Either that, or I was attempting to say "before" but it was too many letters to type--) then tell me your thoughts.
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I was thinking something like this:
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These leds are pretty close together compared to LCD topgun or something similar, I believe this is where their "patented math" comes into play.
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Why don't you look at the trackIR WITH HEADCLIP (tou tube link I posted --BINGO! Either that, or I was attempting to say "before" but it was too many letters to type--) then tell me your thoughts.
Thoughts are still the same.... There's a vast diference between providing a rotate left or right instruction and providing an accurate real world gun in relation to real world physical screen surface position.
And you'd still have to have widely spaced markers or LED's on the gun. Making it impractical.
The only reason it can calculate 3D positional information is because of the spacing and difference in positional data. That's why we (the majority of people who have two eyes that is) can see in 3D. Looking at a single point (like a gun) with a single point (like a camera) will not give you positional or depth information.
These leds are pretty close together compared to LCD topgun or something similar, I believe this is where their "patented math" comes into play.
No... this is where the close proximity between the head and the camera comes into play, for the system, this makes them appear to be further spaced out.
That also means that it then won't work for larger screens, or greater distances. They've already made clear to you that their system has a maximum of a five foot working distance, and this is why it does.
Their headset has a total spacing on the LED's of about 5 to 6 inches. You've still got to provide that spacing on a gun for it to even be close to working and even then with a distance limit of 5 feet, or else you need to increase the camera resolution to cope, at huge cost. Which is something else they made clear to you.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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I think your just being stubborn.
those led's aren't that far apart, if you can strap them on ur head you can weild them on a gun - just like the laser on the LCD topgun - have u seen lightguns out there lately, most of them are hulking super-soaker looking things anyway.
and the trackIR does a lot more than provide left or right instruction.
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I already stated that a 5 foot limit would be perfect as far as I'm concerned I don't want to stand ten feet away from the screen, is that how you play a shooter in the arcade? - no. :angry:
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I think your just being stubborn.
Oh OK I suppose that Sega, Nintendo, Sony, Honda... etc etc were also being stubborn when they abandoned development of all such systems, because they couldn't make them work in the application you want them to.
and the trackIR does a lot more than provide left or right instruction.
No... you missunderstand.... It's providing positional information. But in the examples shown it's not having to provide it at accurate real world resolution. It's providing scalable left right (plus 5 other axis) movement but it's not providing it related to the real world flat front face of the monitor or in relation to any particularly specific pixel resolution.
Understand that it's just not going to work, no matter how much you want it to.
And all this because you don't want to stick the LED Stands onto your monitor.
I already stated that a 5 foot limit would be perfect as far as I'm concerned I don't want to stand ten feet away from the screen, is that how you play a shooter in the arcade? - no. :angry:
Well you clearly have not set up a Topgun correctly then... because mine works perfectly well at less than 5 feet from the screen. And actually if you measure the distance to screen, or even the percieved distance to screen in a real arcade you'll find it's actually more than 5 feet.
As for it being perfect for you, just because it's right for you, doesn't mean it is for everybody else. So in producing these with a ridiculous 5 foot distance limit they'd be killing a large chunk of potential market anyway. So what you're suggesting is actually that anybody with a large (over 21") screen or projector shouldn't be catered for.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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^^^^that's why I'm asking.
You may be right but I'm not trying to argue technology here, I'm asking if it could be done would people buy it that's all. If a developer feels like they can do something, I think they should give it a try.
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You may be right but I'm not trying to argue technology here
Well actually you were.... but I'll let that one go.
If a developer feels like they can do something, I think they should give it a try.
Yes, and as I already pointed out to you, Sega, Namco, Nintendo, Sony and Honda already have done and after pouring millions of dollars into trying to get it to work, all decided that it was better to put the widely spaced IR LED's round the monitor and the camera in the gun because by doing that you instantly solve 99% of the problems.
Not to mention the Firehawk, which was cancelled for all of the above reasons. It's simply not possible to achieve the result you want, at the accuracy needed, within a budget that the very small market for these will stand. Sorry to tell you this but their accountants were right. It'd be commercial suicide to try it.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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Why are you sorry? It just means you move on to the next idea.
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Why are you sorry? It just means you move on to the next idea.
:laugh2: I don't need to.... the LCD Topgun works fine thanks, and is shortly to work even better at even closer range.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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really, are they coming out with a new version or something?
It's will be pretty much impossible to get me to mount aything to a brand new HDTV, especially anything that requires adhesive - I can live without a few lightgun games.
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really, are they coming out with a new version or something?
Don't know.... but I do know that a third party developer IS coming out with a cheap add on for them that will reduce the required gun to screen distance to below 3 feet.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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So will you at least agree with me on the fact that (for most setups) the Topgun requires the player to be a little ( a lot, ehem) too far back from the screen?
Not to mention if I left those LED strip mounted to my TV all the time I might never get laid again:
Hot Chick: "What are those things on your TV"
Me: "Those are for my Lightgun arcade games, neato huh!?"
Hot Chick:"I have to get up early tomorrow."
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So will you at least agree with me on the fact that (for most setups) the Topgun requires the player to be a little ( a lot, ehem) too far back from the screen?
I really can't agree with you on that, because most people who own them on here love them and don't consider 5 feet to be too far away. If they're set up correctly you can get it down to less than 5 feet.
Not to mention if I left those LED strip mounted to my TV all the time I might never get laid again
:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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but I do know that a third party developer IS coming out with a cheap add on for them that will reduce the required gun to screen distance to below 3 feet.
Have I been under a rock? When did this news surface?
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... but I do know that a third party developer IS coming out with a cheap add on for them that will reduce the required gun to screen distance to below 3 feet.
Julian,
Are you saying that somebody actually got a fish-eye to work with one of those?
I agree with what you've been stating, BTW. I was skeptical until I saw the video, but didn't really connect with the fact that very coarse positional data is fine for head tracking. That would mean not very precise targeting capabilities in an FPS as well.
But one thing I don't really agree on is the distance required for the top guns to work. My control test is HOD3, which I played a bit in the arcade, and the XBOX version on a 36" monitor with the Top-Gun. I needed to be a good 4 to 5 feet further away with the Top-Gun than in the arcade setup. Accuracy was very good, but smaller targets are harder to hit, so the game dynamic was changed. A smaller monitor lets you get closer to the screen, but a small screen means smaller targets so everything is relative.
If one could get closer to the screen with the top-gun, there would be no need for a better solution.
RandyT
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Not to mention if I left those LED strip mounted to my TV all the time I might never get laid again:
Hot Chick: "What are those things on your TV"
Me: "Those are for my Lightgun arcade games, neato huh!?"
Hot Chick:"I have to get up early tomorrow."
:laugh2:
If you have such a delicate balance going on there that she leaves because of some LED bars on your TV set, you are probably kidding yourself thinking she'd come up to your apartment in the first place.
RandyT
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Are you saying that somebody actually got a fish-eye to work with one of those?
:applaud: I might be.....
But one thing I don't really agree on is the distance required for the top guns to work. My control test is HOD3, which I played a bit in the arcade, and the XBOX version on a 36" monitor with the Top-Gun. I needed to be a good 4 to 5 feet further away with the Top-Gun than in the arcade setup.
Noted Randy.... I'm set up at the moment with the LED bars above and below a 21" screen and can get under 5 Feet. So that would make a difference.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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If someone comes up with a 3-5ft range for a 27" monitor then I would buy one today! I have not yet dabbled in the light gun scene because of this.
I can't wait for this solution.
And I already score a hot chick with a Mame Cabinet in my bedroom. Don't you guys know.... Dorks Rule!! >:D
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Talk about coincidence, just now my girlfriend starts complaining about the ledstrips on the TV in the livingroom ::)
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LOL, I'm tellin' you man those LED strips are hideous - they're chick repelants.
MAME cabinets are chick magnets tho, marlborroman's got the right idea with the cabinet in is bedroom. "If you build it they will come":cheers:
I kept that clean.
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In terms of positioning technology, the Wiimote renders everything else obsolete. I am assuming the Topgun uses a simple system whereby each LED is lit in turn and the response measured at the gun and the position calculated. This is not going to be all that accurate and requires the hideous LED bars.
This system was used by Sega on some games and was never considered very good although to be fair they might have worked on it and improved the system to an acceptable level of accuracy.
The Wii uses a camera in the front of the remote. This looks at the screen and surrounding area and then the image is real-time processed to pick out the LED bar (which only needs to be small) from the image.
The LED bar is just permanently lit by a voltage source.
The camera chip has the image processing built-in and sends an X-Y position back to the CPU for each LED detected on the bar. Only one LED is really needed for a gun since rotational motion is not required.
Expect to see this kind of chip available sometime. At the moment it is not available as it was a custom chip by Pixart for Nintendo. Once a similar chip becomes available all current designs will be obsolete overnight.
There is always the possibility of buying a load of Wiimotes and removing the image chips and integrating into a design. I have actually thought about this (mainly after a few beers hehe) but the cost would be rather high and not sure about the legal situation.
The standard Wiimote can be used as a gun of course and it is wireless too (bluetooth) and works on a PC. Not very gun-like in appearance though.
Andy
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I am assuming the Topgun uses a simple system whereby each LED is lit in turn and the response measured at the gun and the position calculated. This is not going to be all that accurate and requires the hideous LED bars.
Actually Andy no.... I thought that it might work that way before I got sight of one. Sega and Namco developed the system for arcade use. pretty much everyting beyond the first House Of The Dead uses it. HOTD 1 to 5, Ghost Squad, Time Crisis 2 to 4, etc etc.....
The Sega and Namco arcade systems actualy calculate position from being able to see at least 3 of LED's out of the ten groups at the top and bottom of the screen. They're not pulsed they're on constantly.
The same applies to the LCD Topgun. It's just an IR source. The difference with the Topgun is that it has to be able to see all of the LED's all of the time, to be able to do the calculation, and it also has a poorly chosen lens system on the off the shelf camera module. Which is why it suffers slightly with the distance range compared to the arcade version.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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A little late to the discussion... but...
I would only be interested in it if...
1) two player support... Even if we have to play games with it to get it to work. But if thye can give a joystick version that would be great for other games... but dual mice would be great.
2) wireless would be GREAT (handle is a great place for some batteries).
3) Camera is small... or can be taken out of the case and still work to fit behind a marquee or something.
4) works well with a slanted monitor. Many monitors are on an angle (gauntlet cab) but the marquee is vertical (where the camera would probably have to go. BTW, I don't care if this isn't the easiest thing to setup... but as long as it CAN be setup.
5) The setup sticks around. I dont' want to calibrate it ever few days. I would MUCH prefer a harder configuration that will be perminent.
the distance isn't a big deal to me (I have the other lcdtopgun... and would love to get closer)...
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The camera chip has the image processing built-in and sends an X-Y position back to the CPU for each LED detected on the bar. Only one LED is really needed for a gun since rotational motion is not required.
I would think more than one LED would be required. Otherwise, the accuracy would be affected by not holding the gun (camera) perfectly vertical.
And like Julian stated, the Top-Gun LED bars are constant-on and all must be "seen" by the camera in the gun. One bar has 2 IR LED groups and the other side has 3. This asymmetrical 5 group pattern allows their software to easily recognize the orientation of the camera to the screen. I would surmise that the Sega system works on a very similar principle, but has more computing power in order to recognize and process more than one dot pattern.
RandyT
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A little late to the discussion
The idea of this poll was to get as many people and as many opinions as possible on what people want from a lightgun. - comments like yours are exactly what I'm looking for. :applaud:
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I just did a bit of research on the Wii remote system and while I am impressed at what it can do, it's doesn't appear to be a huge leap in technology over what the Top-Gun is doing. In fact, it looks like the Top-Gun is better in one sense in that the bars may be on the top and bottom or the sides, whereas apparently the Wii Remote "sensor bar" needs to be horizontal.
However, after playing with the Top-Gun for a couple of hours, I have come to a conclusion: The Top-Gun must use a low resolution CCD, probably 640x480 or smaller. This is based on the fact that it cannot provide single (or even double it seems) pixel precision. The Wii remote, according to reports, has a CCD that is 1152x864, or roughly 1 mega-pixel, which would be 3x finer.
Another difference is most likely going to be the scanning speed. The Wii remote (again, according to reports) scans at 200 frames per second. This will give opportunity for oversampling and averaging of the cursor position, making it more stable. The Top-Gun isn't bad for stability (worse for me when the bars were horizontal, BTW) but it certainly jitters more than the cursor I have seen on the videos of the Wii Remote in action.
The Wii still needs a bar that appears to be about 12" long either above, or below your screen. The system is no different than the Top-Gun in that if the bar is on top of a large screen, and you are pointing the camera at the bottom, the bar may be out of the view and the system will not work. So there are still the same type of restrictions with the Wii Remote as with the Top Gun. They may not be as severe due to to the fact that the Wii uses a slightly smaller bar and most likely a better optical arrangement, but it's still there. I have read that owners of projection screens needed to put the "sensor bar" in the center of the screen, or on a table in front of the screen in order for it to work.
There also seems to be no calibration for the Wii Remote, and have seen some complaints about it being "off" a bit in the menu systems. This isn't important in the Wii menu application because you are moving a cursor, much like a dot with a laser pointer. Light gun games require more accurate calibration, but this can be handled within individual titles, or in an eventual driver if used with a PC.
FWIW.
RandyT
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Also note there are issues [Wii controller] with sunlight interfering with "reading" the IR LEDs.
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Well the entire industry seems to be moving in the direction of interacive/motion-sensing gaming, it's hard to imagine lightgun/shooting games won't soon see some kind of resurgence (even if modest). Eventually someone will figure out a system that works - whether it utilizes LED's or not.
some other thoughts:
the only thing that prevents a classic CRT lightgun from working is the fact that new displays do not draw the picture vertically and horizontally (I'm sure you guys know that), but what if someone created software that mimics the behavior of a CRT monitor - like when you pull the trigger this software would flash the screen the black then "re-draw" the screen white, thus enabling standard lightguns to operate. The software would just have to override the current display for that brief moment then place a mouse click/button press or whatever at that point on the screen - assuming the camera in a standard light can sense (or be modified to sense) the light output of an LCD monitor.
sometimes you find solutions by using old technology in new ways rather that relying on new technology to save you.
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sometimes you find solutions by using old technology in new ways rather that relying on new technology to save you.
And frequently by failing to learn and understand how the technology works you can run yourself up a totally blind alley and think that you have a solution when it simply isn't one.
That again won't work for several technical reasons. You yourself already stated that the image on an LCD screen isn't built up by line scanning.
In actual fact, to detect the position on an LCD screen in the way you suggest, you would have to flash each individual pixel in turn to white then back to black. Assuming a fast 8ms response time (and the response time is different for every LCD screen) and a native screen resolution of 1024 X 768 it would take approximately five seconds to do that for the whole screen, making it totally impractical.
Also the light output from that pixel flash would be so low that the room lighting would look brighter to the gun than the screen pixel flash does.
You're full of bright ideas that can't work.
While it's nice to see this sort of enthusiasm, please try to back it with some actual theoretical calculation first. Otherwise, you're just writing science fiction.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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Damn Fozzy, I'm just throwing ideas out there, I never said I'm some technical whiz - you don't have to be so hostile. I appreciate your technical knowlege but your attitude is repulsive.
:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:ALL HAIL THE GREAT FOZZY, HIS SUPERIOR INTLECT SHAMES THE FUTILE COMMON MAN, PLEASE BLESS US WITH YOUR GREAT WISDOM!!! :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
is your ego fed now?
:troll:
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Hi:
I will be very Happy if I can see other models of LCD Lightguns in the Market.
@TheAdman: To start well you should listen Fozzy, he is quite right, The WebCam on Top of monitor is not the Best way to play lightgun games with accuracy.
If Sega (From House Dead 1 until now) and Namco (on the last Time Crisis 4) Uses the Led Strip on the Screen IS NOT FOR NOTHING
I have the "RGT G1" lightgun from erealgames....this company was supposed to make the "FireHawk" for PC, but I believe that they didnīt finish that because It was the same than RGTG1 (for console)....I mean that the RGTG1 is quite Bad. Bad Accuracy, and lightgun players are limited to the frequency of IR emitters. Also, as you say....Leds on the LightGun are not "Sexy" ;D ;D ;D
Of course, LCD TOP GUN is not 200% Perfect when you buy it, but it is perfect if you:
1) -Add a Brighter Leds to play Longer Distances
2)-Add a Wide Angle lens to play Shorter distances (like 1,5 meters for a 20" monitor)
3)-With a good driver that lets you support "Infinite" players with multiple profiles. A built-in Mouse Driver on the same LightGun does the trick, but anyway, it is always Welcome some sort of application to support multiple profiles or multiple calibrations for different games.
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Downside of putting a Cam on top Monitor:
1)-Leds on the LightGun makes it horrible :P
2)-Accuracy is worse than multiple leds on the monitor. I do not believe in magic with cheap prices
3)-Multiple players = Multiple Ir frequencies (limited players). Ok, you can solve it with a Switch, but I think that is better that every LightGun is the player that you wish. Without any switch. What about 3 player games??
Also, it is easier for dumb users like me that if something happens to Ir Leds, just change the Leds for another normal Ir Leds And Go. I think I couldn´t change my "Top Gun"´s led if they would use other frequency instead of just IR light. Easy to Change :)
4)-To change some IR Led you will have to open your lightgun, instead of changing the Cheap led bar. I mean if you need Brighter Leds or some Led is broke.
I repeat Myself: Led Strips on monitor are not Super-Perfect but I think that is the best technology for LightGuns (Namco, Sega, and Wii prove it)
See you!!!
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is your ego fed now?
:troll:
You come in here, behave like a complete tit head with your first post being a poll to persuade people they want a product that will never work and never be produced, fail to even introduce yourself properly, fail to bother to find out who people are and what they do for a living and why listening to what they say to you is a good idea, insult senior members of the forum, enthusiastically come out with technically impossible garbage and then wonder why I tell you to back your suggestions up with some reality and practical reality at that....
All this, you manage to do in the space of 29 posts.
Well Done!! Welcome to the forum.
Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)
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Welcome to the forum.
Thank you, nice to be here.
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has anybody else noticed on the current wii commercial, when the show shots of games on play you can see the lightbar, but when they take shots from behind the TV of the people "playing enthusiasticaly" its not there anymore? I just thought that was funny.