Main > Main Forum

720 controls design - wouldn't this be better??

<< < (7/9) > >>

u_rebelscum:

--- Quote from: RandyT on October 12, 2009, 04:34:54 am ---Ok, but you kind of missed what I was referring to.  If the index was attached to a digital input, like a gamepad button, there would be no interference with the trackball.  If one were using the Joystick, the user could just not assign it (I.e. set it to "None"), or it could be coded so that the "index input" is ignored unless control is assigned to a spinner.  Really, it would just be an addition to the current scheme that shouldn't really negatively affect the other aspects.  No?

--- End quote ---

"Raw" input from the sensors, with the two sensors hooked up as two buttons?  Hmm...  I'm not against it, but...

PCs do not let apps see the raw quadrature (aka raw mouse sensor) data, while (most of) the original arcades had a quadrature-to-digital counting chip on the main or I/O board.  Add that PC mouse device have different CPR (and optical doesn't even have a revolution anymore) than the original arcade hardware.  Giving 720 access to the raw data would be, umm, exceptional.  Like access to the raw 12-positions of a rotary stick, hard to work out.  A cool idea, yes, but...

But it would still require the two parallel input methods (analog stick 2 axes & spinner + 2 buttons).  So I think it'll need to be done in a diff file.  Unless you're talking about dropping the analog stick, which might make it acceptable, but ... trading an input that works for 99.9% of the users for one that doesn't work well for 99.9% (works poorly for those with spinner or TB) ... I think the status quo will win.

u_rebelscum:
Xiaou2, I'm not saying mamedev is right.  I'm explaining their point of view.  I share some of it, disagree with others.  But even if I disagree, I can't do anything about them besides write code, and I'm not good enough to code what I want.

Remember, mame is written by by coders, maintained by coders, and so the whole project is coder oriented.  Something I totally agree with Aaron is that if you don't enjoy what you're doing for fun, you wouldn't be able to continue doing it: for the mame project to continue, it has to be fun for the coders.


--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on October 12, 2009, 03:56:12 am ---#
# CORE INPUT OPTIONS
#
   ....
720 Arcade Controller   1
--- End quote ---

You're talking about adding a one game option to mame's Core Input Options?  I'm not a mameDev, but I know this:
  Never going to happen.

Mame will never add a game specific option.  Code bloat, code support, code maintainance, code upgradability, option bloat, help support, modularity, all point at not doing it.  So your "solution" is not valid for official mame.


--- Quote ---As for that Ridiculus listxml argument...
--- End quote ---

I'll give you this: mame's listxml outputs what's in the emulation code, and the emulation code doesn't care if it's a star wars yoke or a food fight analog stick, so of course the listxml output reflects that indifference.  It's predecessor was not meant as a database, but people used it as one; listxml is far improved over the prior but as we both agree, it's not perfect.

Still, adding as you suggest don't help fix the listxml, but makes it more confusing.  And people will use it as a DB data source whether it was designed as one or not.


--- Quote --- I believe I actually came up with the idea and argued for the Analog joystick
support long ago.  And yeah,  Im glad that it was put in.   But I was shocked to see
support for the real deal removed.  Its Not the correct thing to do.
--- End quote ---

I didn't say I came up with the idea.  I helped implement it, and messed with the code, so know how it works.  And know how much a pain it is to have multiple mame inputs combined to one game input, and it's not easy.


--- Quote --- David is a rare breed...
--- End quote ---

yeah, glad he's doing what he's doing.


--- Quote ---The more Mame EASILY supports... the better chance more arcade control
repos will be made.
--- End quote ---

Not mame's scope.  (ie: mame.exe doesn't care about repos :'()  <-- incase not clear, I'm not happy about this.  And individuals within mameDev probably do like repos.


--- Quote --- And, if something isnt done to properly document controllers...  Nobody is
going to know what the heck the original game was controlled with.  Nor
will they be able to re-fabricate them if they Did know.
--- End quote ---

There is no way to completely document the controller within mame's scope.  So mame isn't going to try.  Just like it doesn't do pong.


--- Quote --- ... you dont even know what the
buttons you are using are for.   When you walk up to a Real machine, they
are listed:  Punch, Fire.  
--- End quote ---

A) Not all machines had labeled buttons. 
B) Mamedoesn't have a control panel.
C) If the buttons were labeled as fire & bomb in mame, how would you know which button was fire and which was bomb.? IOW, was button 1 fire, or was button 2?  There is more info on that CP than just the name: button position, instruction card, graphics.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like the labels in mame.  I'm just saying this is a feature outside of mame's scope.  I believe the current design is far better setup to be labeled without messing up everything, unlike it was a few years ago, so this might be a possible goal, except back when labeling effed things up, too many people tried submitting labels, and so a good-at-the-time policy was put in place not to accept label changes.

We might want to propose the labeling again, but gently, not insultingly.


--- Quote ---The system needs a huge overhaul... with good thought put into it before just diving in.
--- End quote ---

Yes.  With lots of good thought.

Xiaou2:

--- Quote ---Something I totally agree with Aaron is that if you don't enjoy what you're doing for fun, you wouldn't be able to continue doing it: for the mame project to continue, it has to be fun for the coders.
--- End quote ---

 Thats all good and stuff... However, remember that many of the games the Devs
work on, come from funds and donations from fellow collectors, and us poor pocketed -
but passionate arcade enthusiasts.

 At very Least, we should be able to play the games properly.  Especially when certain
things that would make a ton of people happy (and very willing to donate even more),
are simple as pie for a Master Dev to add.

 Remember also,  Mame is more than donations.  There are plenty of people
preserving artworks, making samples, scanning in schematics, buying various
hardware, art, schematics, laser discs, hard drives, and more.
 
 Mame can and would still continue if nobody else supported it.. however, its pace
would be a heck of a lot slower.


--- Quote --- You're talking about adding a one game option to mame's Core Input Options?
--- End quote ---

 No.  Im talking about any and all games which have similar problems.  Such as
the problem with not being able to use a real arcade shifter in all racing games in mame.



--- Quote ---Mame will never add a game specific option.  Code bloat, code support, code maintainance, code upgradability, option bloat, help support, modularity, all point at not doing it.  So your "solution" is not valid for official mame.

--- End quote ---

 Never?  I didnt realize I was speaking to the Leader of the band...

 Every few releases... Mame has done some extensive changes which for the most
part, are not all that necessary, and do not do much to change anything.
Its simply more palatable and cosmetic than actually useful.  (OCD?)   Im not
saying its a bad thing... but if mame can take time to change everything for the
smallest of reasons,  why not an actual change that has a deep impact?

 Be honest man.  You are stretching the Excuses / reasoning's.
The add to the core wouldnt have a need for a ton of maintenance.  Set it,
and forget it..  Until that day when someone decides a better way.



--- Quote ---I didn't say I came up with the idea.  I helped implement it, and messed with the code, so know how it works.  And know how much a pain it is to have multiple mame inputs combined to one game input, and it's not easy.
--- End quote ---


 I also found your older builds confusing.. as with so many options.. a person would have
a hard time figuring out how the heck the actual game was supposed to be controlled.

 However, this is Not that case.   Its dead simple.   You click arcade control if you have
a real controller.   Its not 55 ways to control a game all in one menu.

 You know I appreciate the hard work you put in to adding multiple mice... as well
as the rest of the work you have done.    If only the other Devs had the same passion
for actually using the games they work on... 

 Code ease and OCD related 'Order' should not take pressidence over correct
historical functionality.


--- Quote ---yeah, glad he's doing what he's doing.
--- End quote ---

 He does what he does because he has passion for the games.  Not
because of Mame.  Though, he is Mame friendly.. which is great.

 If David comes out with the 720 controller, and only invested in it because of mames
wide base...  Would mame suddenly support it?   What about the people who
cant afford the controller? 

 And, do you really think hardware developers are going to invest in software that
does not support it natively?   

 Its just plain sad, this state of mind and choices being made.

 
--- Quote ---Just like it doesn't do pong.
--- End quote ---

 Mame is:   Multiple ARCADE Machine emulation.
 
 Excuse me... But wasnt Pong an Arcade Machine?

 What about Ninja Gun?  Contains electronics, And mechanics...  And Yup,
was an Arcade Machine.

 Just because some things might lose some accuracy through simulations means
Nothing.   They cut the balls off 720, and Simulate the controller... but cant simulate
something else?   What about all the samples that have been used?  Simulated
sound chips.  And now mame supports Discrete sounds...?   What the big deal
in supporting the discrete video as well?  Or simulating the mechanics thru scanned
art and actual 3d dimensions?

 To this day, nobody has made a decent version of Monaco GP.  How sad is that?
That game is a pure Classic... a huge part of Arcade gaming history. 

SavannahLion:

--- Quote from: u_rebelscum on October 12, 2009, 01:03:38 pm ---
--- Quote from: RandyT on October 12, 2009, 04:34:54 am ---Ok, but you kind of missed what I was referring to.  If the index was attached to a digital input, like a gamepad button, there would be no interference with the trackball.  If one were using the Joystick, the user could just not assign it (I.e. set it to "None"), or it could be coded so that the "index input" is ignored unless control is assigned to a spinner.  Really, it would just be an addition to the current scheme that shouldn't really negatively affect the other aspects.  No?

--- End quote ---

"Raw" input from the sensors, with the two sensors hooked up as two buttons?  Hmm...  I'm not against it, but...

PCs do not let apps see the raw quadrature (aka raw mouse sensor) data, while (most of) the original arcades had a quadrature-to-digital counting chip on the main or I/O board.  Add that PC mouse device have different CPR (and optical doesn't even have a revolution anymore) than the original arcade hardware.  Giving 720 access to the raw data would be, umm, exceptional.  Like access to the raw 12-positions of a rotary stick, hard to work out.  A cool idea, yes, but...
--- End quote ---

Well.... I don't keep up with enough to really make a definitive argument but....

What's to stop MAMEDev from defining raw input, allowing us to leverage that raw input and then let people like Randy develop the hardware to go with it? Isn't that exactly what 255 USB class is specifically for? For situations just like this.

Obviously, a lot more thought would need to be put into developing something like that and the first hurdle that comes to mind is Windows ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up driver certification ---smurf-poop---. In any case, as much as it sucks that PC's dropped legacy support for the Serial and Parallel ports (thus crippling an entire legacy of DIY projects in one fell swoop) the USB replacement is nearly as pleasing. Not nearly as simple as interfacing to a parallel port, you still have a huge number of people developing peripherals right and left and you have countless companies offering up USB enabled ICs. The USB stack is very well documented. USB is going to stick around for awhile.

But alas, the MAMEDev will do what they want. Suggestions be damned. :dunno

edit: fixed typo

Ummon:
Um, all that stuff ain't really what this thread is about. Hence, I'm bumping my last post:



--- Quote from: Ummon on October 11, 2009, 10:33:08 pm ---Anyways, yeah, I totally forgot it was a chain-driven mechanism an all. Partly, I was caught up with my own idea - which is it being a spinner-type device, with a race/spoke deal at the top that the angled shaft is connected to - kinda like a manual mixer or drill with a slanted shaft, rather than a crank.

The dexterity required to turn the race might be more than enough to compensate for the slickness of the spinner element. Even re-designing it further by putting in a crank with a spinner handle could be cool (I've actually presented this idea in years past), and the race set-up still possibly present enough resistance.

Regardless of design, the handle should be a spinning top - it should've been on the game, and I thought so the first time I played it in '86. I really thought they missed the cherry on that sundae.

--- End quote ---

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page

Go to full version