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720 controls design - wouldn't this be better??
u_rebelscum:
--- Quote from: SavannahLion on October 12, 2009, 12:31:51 am ---
--- Quote from: u_rebelscum on October 11, 2009, 05:16:40 am ---...and most importantly mame's policy is to do only one (mame) input per game input, it was either an input that didn't work for any controller, or the analog joystick simulation.
--- End quote ---
Doesn't this ideology go against the ideology of accurately emulating the hardware?
--- End quote ---
Mame is about emulating the CPU and other processing units. (About the only things mame can control how well it emulates.)
Mame can't emulate a physical yoke. It takes the limited input data for the OS, and translates into the data the game expected. IOW, on the software emulation side, food fight analog stick = I robot hall effect = hard drivin (sitdown) gear shift = term 2's gun = star wars yoke. So no matter how much us people who know the physical difference whine to MameDev, they can't do anything about it. So remember that
720 is a little different in that mamedev has three choices:
- use the spinner code (old or patched for original controller) that didn't work well enough to play with normal spinners, and had a FAQ "why doens't my joystick work in 720?"
- use the currently analog code and document the hack in the source like it does now, causing not true data in listxml output, ubt working for 99.9% of the users
- put both in, so that you have all the problems of both: not true listxml output & normal spinners won't work well enough to play, while adding: the issues of a spinner and a joystick fighting for the same input, more code in the game driver level to upkeep over the years.
(- or make that major input revision I talked about above.)
As one who came in when mame had the first, pushed for the third, and got the second instead... :dunno ... I'm not totally happy with the current state, but it's better than it was IMO, and the state I was pushing for isn't as good as I was hopping for (as I found out when it was in mame:Analog+).
u_rebelscum:
--- Quote from: RandyT on October 12, 2009, 01:42:23 am ---Regardless, since the code doesn't seem to care whether the index wheel transitions ever occur, why not emulate the hardware by simply tying one of the inputs to the index? If you have the real hardware, it modulates the input (button, keypress, etc) and MAME can act on it. If not, leave the input hanging (assigned to "none") and it never comes into play. Should offer the best of both worlds without the specific need to support two different types of controls.
Or have I missed something?
--- End quote ---
That's how it was done in analog+. The normal wheel was "player 1 dial" the index was "player 1 dialV" (aka vertical dial). If you had an original controller, and the index was wired to the Y axis, it worked great. With a normal one axis spinner it worked (but without the joystick direction = player direction, so play suffered). Problems occurred with TBs, though: the game getting "index signals" way out of proportion. With an analog joystick, this wouldn't work at all.
So that's what the diff for supporting original controller would have.
u_rebelscum:
--- Quote from: SavannahLion on October 12, 2009, 12:31:51 am ---u_rebelscum & 720. I didn't realize it, but I read about that work on jstookey's page and the hack to support the 720 stick.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, jstookey wrote most of the actual code that did the analog joystick to spinner + index format the game wants, with only some help from me. I started the support original controller code before talking to him, but jstookey did a lot more testing than I was able to.
Xiaou2:
No Offense Urebel... but your being a total Brown nosed (and lipped) Suckup.
You make it sound like its So darn hard to make a simple switch, which
disables the hack mode, and allows True mode. Its not.
AND, its Not confusing either. Anyone with a REAL controller, can simply go in
and edit or click:
==========
#
# CORE INPUT OPTIONS
#
coin_lockout 1
ctrlr
mouse 1
joystick 1
lightgun 1
multikeyboard 0
multimouse 1
steadykey 0
offscreen_reload 0
joystick_map auto
joystick_deadzone 0.3
joystick_saturation 0.85
720 Arcade Controller 1
2 Way Arcade Shifter 1
4 Way Arcade Shifter 1
=======
As for that Ridiculus listxml argument... you should be ashamed you even mentioned it.
The idea that a game does not fit into the POOR AS HELL game listing of controller
types is a Joke.
Not only can you make it so that Mame can send whatever data it wants to
a database... Its completely irrelevant to the argument.
The controller list is complete garbage. Everyone knows it. It does not correctly
classify a good number of games. The purpose of Mame SHOULD be to correctly
document and preserve games in every detail. Not to fit a unique game into a
False catagory... because somoene is too lazy, stubborn, or too stupid to make
correct documentation. (IE: A correct database format)
I believe I actually came up with the idea and argued for the Analog joystick
support long ago. And yeah, Im glad that it was put in. But I was shocked to see
support for the real deal removed. Its Not the correct thing to do.
David is a rare breed... that will make correct hardware regardless if Mame
supports it or not... merely because he is making them for the actual machines.
Nobody else is going to waste time designing and selling units for a game(s) in mame that you have to make a custom complie just to get it to work.
Would You risk your money on an expensive project that isnt even supported
by the software you want it to run on ? ? ! ! ! Get real man.
The more Mame EASILY supports... the better chance more arcade control
repos will be made.
And, if something isnt done to properly document controllers... Nobody is
going to know what the heck the original game was controlled with. Nor
will they be able to re-fabricate them if they Did know.
Heck... If you start a game up in mame... you dont even know what the
buttons you are using are for. When you walk up to a Real machine, they
are listed: Punch, Fire. Yet In mame.. its Button1, Button2. It should not
be like that. If the game lists button 1 as SuperFreezeBlaster... then that
is exactly what mame should list it as.
Allowing any number and type of input is great... but, there should be a way to
know for sure... easily, exactly what the game used as a default.
The system needs a huge overhaul... with good thought put into it before just diving in.
However... there again, is no reason why a few extra switches such
as the ones I listed can not be instituted as a temporary fix, until that day may happen.
RandyT:
--- Quote from: u_rebelscum on October 12, 2009, 01:58:02 am ---That's how it was done in analog+. The normal wheel was "player 1 dial" the index was "player 1 dialV" (aka vertical dial). If you had an original controller, and the index was wired to the Y axis, it worked great. With a normal one axis spinner it worked (but without the joystick direction = player direction, so play suffered). Problems occurred with TBs, though: the game getting "index signals" way out of proportion. With an analog joystick, this wouldn't work at all.
So that's what the diff for supporting original controller would have.
--- End quote ---
Ok, but you kind of missed what I was referring to. If the index was attached to a digital input, like a gamepad button, there would be no interference with the trackball. If one were using the Joystick, the user could just not assign it (I.e. set it to "None"), or it could be coded so that the "index input" is ignored unless control is assigned to a spinner. Really, it would just be an addition to the current scheme that shouldn't really negatively affect the other aspects. No?
RandyT
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