New pin: Lethal Weapon 3 (Update: FIXED)

[shardian]

When measuring DMD voltages, you need to take them off the actual pins on the DMD when the display is plugged in.

Is this because the circuitry requires a load to run? This is never even hinted at in the pinrepair guide.

[shardian]

This is because you need to verify what is actually making it from the power supply to the DMD.  No idea what the circuit does without a load, but that's why you're going to measure at the DMD, and if the voltages are incorrect, measure it at the power supply.  It's a good habit to get into.

I see what you are saying now. You're basically testing the pins at the same time of testing the voltages.

[ChadTower]

He's breaking the circuits down into smaller circuits in order to isolate where the problem lies.  Start at the source, determine good voltages.  Move on to the next possible test point, ensure still good.  Keep moving forward until it is bad, then you know the problem lies between those two points.  Or, start where it's bad, and keep moving backwards until it is good.

[shardian]

Well...I already know the voltages are bad BEFORE the DMD. I measured at the DMD end of the connector!

[ChadTower]

I wouldn't be surprised if he's right about needing the DMD present and under power to get proper test readings.

[ChadTower]

Every game I get seems to have component failures when I get it.  PIAs, drivers, predrivers, RAM, ROM, etc.   

[shardian]

Every game I get seems to have component failures when I get it.  PIAs, drivers, predrivers, RAM, ROM, etc.   

Same here.

[ChadTower]

What can I say?  It's the whole "it followed me home can I keep it" syndrome.  It's not like I pay a lot for these games so I can't really complain.  My project games tend to be good titles that I got really cheap but need a lot of work.

[shardian]

Yesterday I played the machine until it failed so I could poke around some more. game would not boot again after power cycle, which is what I wanted. I flexed every power connection on the game to no avail. I flexed every component in the blanking circuit too. At one point, the PIA light stayed on with power up, but went away the next time.

I decided to let the machine cool back down and see what happened. I came back about 2 hours later and sure enough, the game fired right up. I should also note that the last week I have been playing with the head wide open so I could watch the LED's. Last night I played with the head closed up. It definitely failed sooner.

What's all this mean? It means I highly suspect a cold solder joint on a PIA chip, or merely a bad PIA chip that needs to heat up to intermittently fail. In the meantime, I am going to reflow every PIA pin and see what happens. There are 6 PIA's, and I don't look forward to hunting down the specific error if it is a bad chip.

[ChadTower]

If you think it's a PIA, play it to failure, then spray the PIA with cold spray.

[shardian]

If you think it's a PIA, play it to failure, then spray the PIA with cold spray.

INteresting! If it is a PIA, that should allow me to isolate which one, right? Then I can just replace it.

[ChadTower]

That's my theory.  Canned air held upside down = cold spray.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, but that means you have to play it until the point of failure again. 

That's not too much of a problem for those of us with lots of other people around.  I can set my 10 year old loose on a game and he'll literally play it until it fails or I make him stop.

[shardian]

PIAs have no rework. That doesn't mean anything though.

[shardian]

Eh, I doubt they magically developed cold solder joints, though. 

On a normal game, no. On a DE boardset, it is highly likely. They come with built in ovens in the form of large banks of closely mounted cement resistors. 

[ChadTower]

It could easily just be intermittently failing, too, and have no cold joints at all.

[shardian]

Also, this is a known/documented issue at RGP....they just don't say if it is a specific PIA, or any one of them. That is the part that sucks...

[shardian]

Tried to fire this up Christmas eve, and it was allmessed up. Weird coil pulses, lighting pulses, etc. Not to mention it fired up in the middle of a game with a score of 30k something?!?

On power cycle it kept trying to boot over and over. blanking on/off/on/off

Today I tried the DE test Rom again. I've tried it before and it didn't do squat. Since the game is in full-blown failure though, I figured it would be worth a shot. The solenoid PIA fails. Unfortunately, the test stops at that point. I have to replace that PIA and hope it is the pnly bad PIA.
I'm also going to bite the bullet and order a full-blown PS rebuild supply. It will be much cheaper than a new PS, and won't take me that long. Besides,the things I've been hearing about Rottendog chintzing on component specs has me officially leery. It's nice when a technical person gives very specific reasoning behind an opinion than the common "Don't order there - they're crap." 

[ChadTower]

Is that an RGP comment?  I agree with jim that you really can't trust what you read there in terms of vendors.  Way too many guys with long memories and unreasonable expectations.

[shardian]

The fellow from GPE explained in detail the issues folks have with Rottendog boards.

[Jeff AMN]

I have two pins with Rottendog boards and I've never had any issues with either.

[shardian]

I have two pins with Rottendog boards and I've never had any issues with either.

The issue apparently is that Rottendog uses some components that work prefectly fine, but are at or near the safety threshold. I believe the regulators are the main complaints. Allegedly, the long term life of these components will be much shorter than they should be. A repro board should be designed to give faultless operation in the long term. Pascal Janin and his spectacular System I boards is the quality standard bearer in this regard. He designed his board so that you can go homicidal with a screwdriver and short coils to switches, and the board will not be damaged.

[Jeff AMN]

I know what the issue is, according to GPE, but I've not found that the actual number of complaints line up with the amount we should be hearing.

[Jeff AMN]

RGP is fine for getting a feel of a product. Before putting one into my Bride of Pinbot I specifically asked about quality issues and nobody tried to deter me from buying one. One of my machines already had one in there, but I wanted to double check some opinions. If people have been burned by a product, they'll bark given the chance.

In fact, the only person I've seen really complain about Rottendog boards is Great Plains Electronics. They seem to dislike the boards, but I don't know if it's based off of actual history with the product or just a dislike for the specs. Either way, I have heard that it's easy to get them replaced if you get a bum board.

They're probably not bulletproof, but they're good enough that they don't have a black mark on them.

[tattoo kid]

I have been following this thread and also the one on KLOV.I too have 3 Rottendog boards installed  in my machines (all System 11 power supply boards) and have never had any issues with any them. Before buying them, I did alot of searching for issues pertaining to their boards and read only good comments.

You think with all the people that visit these threads (KLOV and BYOAC) that people with issues would start posting comments, but I still have not seen a negative comment other than an issue that pertains to their customer service (the KLOV thread in which the person does not even want to say what the issue is). I cannot comment on their customer service, because I have never had to use it. 

Guess I can always go back to the original supplies (which I have repaired with components from GPE) if there are any issues.

[shardian]

The rev. 2 board that came with this machine was from Rottendog, and sold as a working board to the fellow I bought the machine from. It was still sealed in the original rottendog shipping box. 2 TIP drivers locked on.. This was a board error, not a cabinet or wiring error. I'm not faulting rottendog, because the board did sit in its box for probably 3 years. However, that is my only experience with Rottendog, and it didn't exactly leave me with an overflow of confidence.

I trust my ability to rebuild the existing board - besides, I've already reflowed everything and replaced a burned up board connector. Might as well keep going.

[shardian]

I just finished replacing the 5F solenoid PIA...but the test rom still fails at the same 3rd flash. I am baffled!

[ChadTower]

Did you socket the new one?

[shardian]

Did you socket the new one?

Of course! I have a spare, I'll try it. I destroyed the original by going ahead and cutting the legs. I didn't want to risk ruining any pads. For the record, I only plugged in the power connection to run the test. Thus, nothing could have backfed and blown the replacement PIA.

[shardian]

Or could it?

 

Man, with glorious advice like this I'll have this thing working in no time. 

I'm pissed off right now, because I just did some butchering repair work. There is a 74xxx chip in the chain of chips that is the only thing left in the coil circuit that hasn't been replaced (and is probably toast). I pulled the same chip from my rev 2 board to put in the rev3 board. I also tried to save the same chip on the rev. 3 board as I pulled it out. BIG mistake. I pulled out a solder thru hole, and broke the chip in half. I then had to use SIP strips and had to run a jumper on the missing plated thru hole.

I put in the chip from the rev 2 board, but who knows if it survived the transplant. Anyways, I checked all socket pin continuity, plugged in the chip, and powered the board. It now has no life - as it freezes on the first PIA flash. Dammit!!!!!!!!

I seriously HATE working on this board now. It is a real piece of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

I've wasted so damn much time and parts money trying to solve this...I give up.

Not to mention it seems I'm the only damn person in the world willing to tinker with DE boards. No one knows jack ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about them except for 1-2 folks who repair them, and there is zero worthwhile knowledge out there to fix my problem. I've counted at least 10 RGP threads with a problem extremely similar to mine - all of them appear to have went unanswered.

I'm just really pissed off right now. I'll probably suck it up and work some more in a week...like I've done for several months now. I just want a working game...I'm tired of working on it.

[shardian]

Meh, I think I'll just go the pbj route and browbeat/lowball folks on rgp and offer them $20 shipped for minty nice boards...

Feel free to stop reading if you aren't interested and all you have to add is smart ass comments.

I'm tired of working on it.

And we're tried of reading this thread, dude. 

Now, I'm not Uncle Pennybags but isn't the solution to your problem just to belly up and plunk down $200 and get another board? 

The reason you can't find any decent DE repair threads is because you can still get the boards from Stern.   

[tattoo kid]

From reading this thread, it seems to me, that you are your own worst enemy.

Last thing. I was getting frustrated, and decided to reseat the game EPROM again, Started to pull it out, then one side gave alot quicker than the other...I broke a mother effing leg off!!!!!

I HATE this crap!!!

Man, with glorious advice like this I'll have this thing working in no time. 

I'm pissed off right now, because I just did some butchering repair work. There is a 74xxx chip in the chain of chips that is the only thing left in the coil circuit that hasn't been replaced (and is probably toast). I pulled the same chip from my rev 2 board to put in the rev3 board. I also tried to save the same chip on the rev. 3 board as I pulled it out. BIG mistake. I pulled out a solder thru hole, and broke the chip in half. I then had to use SIP strips and had to run a jumper on the missing plated thru hole.

I put in the chip from the rev 2 board, but who knows if it survived the transplant. Anyways, I checked all socket pin continuity, plugged in the chip, and powered the board. It now has no life - as it freezes on the first PIA flash. Dammit!!!!!!!!

I seriously HATE working on this board now. It is a real piece of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

I've wasted so damn much time and parts money trying to solve this...I give up.

[shardian]

From reading this thread, it seems to me, that you are your own worst enemy.

As Forrest Gump says, 'it' happens.

[ChadTower]

At this point I would write this board off, at least for the present, and get a working one.  It's not worth all of this frustration.  If you want later on you can go back to this board and continue working on it but at this point it sounds like the board is just not worth the effort anymore.

Good try, man, but shoot this dog and get another.

[shardian]

FYI, just broke down and paid for a working 100% board. That is a painful experience for a cheap person...
Probably gonna sell my 2 leftover boards soon.

[shardian]

Trading the 2 leftover boards toward the new board. I am quite happy with the deal. New board should be here on Wednesday or Thursday.

Will probably be sending off the PSU to the guy for a rebuild too. I will be happy to abandon board work on this one and concentrate on the playfield work that I like the best.

[shardian]

Got the board in. Plugged it in this evening and it works great. Considering he is taking both of my other boards that are now in crappy condition (I treated the rev 2 like a parts board after that driver melted down) in trade, I came out pretty well. I would have preffered better, but I'll take what I can get at this point.
Of course the DMD is still splotchy. I'm going to pull the PS again and look it over good. I reflowed everything questionable on it, so don't know why it would be doing this. IIRC, it was fine before I did the reflowing. Weird... I apparently just don't get along with this machine!

[shardian]

I put the power board back in this morning, and decided to check the fuses and verify they were correct. I thought I had done this before...

Anyways, there was a 10A fuse in F6 - F6 is the solenoid fuse... So yeah, I know why I melted down that Rev. 2 board now... can't believe I overlooked this before!! I was convinced I had checked it out!
After making a mad dash special trip to Rat shack and realizing the employee was a moron (told me they had 5A slo blows), I had to settle on a pack of 4A and 6A fuses. I went with the 6A since I figured it would still pop if there was a problem, but not pop because a kid was wailing on the flippers during multiball.

Game ran perfectly with a ton of play for about 4 hours. Matter of fact, the 'splotchy' effect on the DMD almost went away. There was only the tiniest amount of splotch after about an hour. Something is up with the police light at the top of the cab though. The fuse was blown before, so I replaced it. I know it was working for at least a while, but after a while it was not on during M-ball. I'll have to figure out why the 1A fuse is popping on that, though it is a pretty minor thing. I never notice the light while I'm playing anyways.

Now it is time to clean her up good. Like I've said before, this pin is just a great all around game to slap the ball around. Everyone seems to enjoy Whodunnit, but the rules confuse the hell out of them. With LW3, there is no confusion.

[shardian]

No no, the splotches magically showed up a a few months back after I took out the PSU to give it a once over. Today the splotchiness actually almost completely went away after the machine was on for a while. I'm thinking it may just be the temperature or some cold solder on the DMD board. Who knows. That room is normally pretty cold, but it was pretty warm in there this evening with all the people, games, and heater on.

[shardian]

Sure enough, the splotch effect was in full force with the room cold last night.

makes me wonder if the problem is in the power supply, or just a DMD going bad. Yes Jim, I know swapping DMD's is the test. If I get a spare hour sometime in the near future, I will swap the displays.