Author Topic: 1975 Atari Crash 'N Score Restoration (Read 14851 times)

Majoraslayer · « **on:** August 25, 2009, 02:49:15 pm »

Someone just gave me this vintage cabinet. Supposedly it works, as his kids used to play it. However, the cabinet is literally disentegrating; there is no restoring the cabinet itself.

My first task in restoring this classic will be to build an entire new cabinet. Does anyone happen to have cabinet plans for this game?

IG-88 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 25, 2009, 03:45:00 pm »

Wow! Just looked it up on KLOV, cool looking game.

You 're probably gonna have a hard time getting plans for it. Is it so far gone that you cant even get measurements? Whats all left too it?

PICS!

Majoraslayer · « **Reply #2 on:** August 26, 2009, 02:17:08 am »

I couldn't get it in the door of the shed, so at the moment I have it stored at my mom's covered in a tarp. As soon as possible, I'm going to take pics of it.

Like I said, the cabinet is completely disentegrating. If you touch it, your hand comes away covered in wood dust. All of the wood in it is just rotten and falling to pieces, I guess from moisture. Hopefully the game itself still works as I've been told. I'm actually a little afraid to try booting it inside the cabinet due to the disentegrating wood because it seems like it would be a fire hazard.

I lightly tugged on the locked rear panel, and the entire back fell off. This allowed me to look over the inside, and it appears that the components inside are in good shape (with the exception of several years of dust). The monitor and board look to be solidly put together.

Maybe I can measure it out before I take it apart. I was just kind of hoping someone would have some plans for it to make it easier. eBay has an actual service manual for it, but the seller said it didn't have any kind of plans for the cab itself. I'll post pics as soon as I can.

EDIT: Also, everything is there except for most of the T-molding and one of the pedals.

IG-88 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 26, 2009, 07:33:22 am »

For the wood to be that bad I'm wondering if it didn't get completely flooded. I wouldn't boot it up yet either. The boards can get wet but not for an extended period of time and they have to be completely dry before power is applied of course. Take some detailed pics of the hardware and get them on here for the experts to look at. It may be a case where this poor thing is just too far gone.

If there is anything left of the artwork you might want to scan it now before it gets any worse. There are some people that can do some amazing things with that stuff on these boards also.

Silas (son of Silas) · « **Reply #4 on:** August 26, 2009, 08:30:28 am »

Nice looking cab. The photo on KLOV hints at it being a pretty chunky beast. I look forward to seeing a pic of yours.

Majoraslayer · « **Reply #5 on:** August 26, 2009, 11:57:19 am »

Quote from: IG-88 on August 26, 2009, 07:33:22 am

For the wood to be that bad I'm wondering if it didn't get completely flooded. I wouldn't boot it up yet either. The boards can get wet but not for an extended period of time and they have to be completely dry before power is applied of course. Take some detailed pics of the hardware and get them on here for the experts to look at. It may be a case where this poor thing is just too far gone.

If there is anything left of the artwork you might want to scan it now before it gets any worse. There are some people that can do some amazing things with that stuff on these boards also.

Like I said, the guy I got it from said that it works fine. His kids used to play it. I have to wonder if its really been flooded, or if its just the progressive deterioration of nearly 35 years of progressive moisture. Usually when wood has water damage, it will have some discoloration to it or visible mold. Thats not the case; the color of all the wood seems to be consistent. When I get it all apart, I'm going to try booting it on a work table. I feel kind of bad tearing this old cabinet apart and hauling it off, but there is absolutely no saving it. Perhaps at the least the hardware can go on living if I can build it a new home. The fact that it uses discrete logic fascinates me to no end. It probably attributes to the board having survived so many years.

Spyridon · « **Reply #6 on:** August 26, 2009, 01:31:27 pm »

IG-88 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:26:23 pm »

Quote from: Majoraslayer on August 26, 2009, 11:57:19 am

Like I said, the guy I got it from said that it works fine.

I wasn't doubting what you said. It just seemed weird to me that he said it worked yet you haven't seen it, and that if it is deteriorating as badly as you say (sounds like dry rot actually) I'm surprised a person, kid or not, could play it without it falling apart.

I'm just glad you got it and can appreciate it for what its worth.

How is the artwork anyway?

Majoraslayer · « **Reply #8 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:39:37 pm »

Well, I finally took some pics.

Here's some of the internals. Note the wood dust and sagging shelf.

The screen overlay is a little scratched, but not chipped from what I can tell.

If anybody can make sideart from photos, here you go. Its the best I can do, and the artwork is fairly simple. Also, its in pretty good shape.

IG-88 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 26, 2009, 03:47:01 pm »

WOW! That baby has seen some better days

Is that a power supply is the fourth pic? Looks really rusty.

Do you have flatbed scanner or access to one? I've seen some guys do amazing stuff with some scans.

If you can bring this back form the dead it will have to be greatest restore I've seen! Those are the kind that I love! You have just got to do it!

RetroACTIVE · « **Reply #10 on:** August 26, 2009, 04:55:16 pm »

Oh man I'd love to refab that thing... I'm diggin' these old B&W's lately!

Cool project!

slasherman · « **Reply #11 on:** August 26, 2009, 05:41:23 pm »

Is the sideart painted on ? Never tried this game....

Majoraslayer · « **Reply #12 on:** August 27, 2009, 12:27:17 am »

Yes, I believe it is painted on.

The power supply does have some surface rust, but hopefully it won't affect the operation of it. I may sand some of that off. Even if it is wearing out, I have a Defender cabinet I made into a MAME cab. It came with the power supply, so hopefully it will have the outputs this board needs. I don't think it will be a problem though.

I do have access to a flatbed scanner. Do I just hold it up to the artwork and go over it? Also, it may be a while before I'm able to scan it; I'm in the process of building a house and am currently living in an apartment. Since this means it will be stored in (or currently next to) my mom's shed, there won't be a computer anywhere near it for a good while. But, after I get moved into my house I'll have a full garage and plenty of room to do whatever with it.

Until then, I plan to remove all of the hardware from it, set it up on a table, and test it all out. The guy I got it from said the keys to it were missing; upon removing the rear panel, I found the keys hanging on the inside. Convenient!

Level42 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 27, 2009, 06:25:58 am »

Atari silkscreened all the artwork in those days. Sad to see it's in such a bad shape, then again it is really old...if you could restore this it would be great. The PCB seems to have survived pretty well.

You have to put the cab on one side (that is, if that's still possible !) and then put the scanner on it and scan part by part. Make sure there are overlaps. Luckely the side art isn't very big.

If you can't put it on the side, you can still scan it with some tricks, read it here:
http://www.gamoover.net/node/73

Love the 70's games, I hadn't seen this one before.

SirPeale · « **Reply #14 on:** August 27, 2009, 07:52:04 am »

You weren't kidding. That's falling apart! You're going to have to make a whole new cab for it.

RetroACTIVE · « **Reply #15 on:** August 27, 2009, 08:47:41 am »

I'd certainly scan the artwork and have it re-printed.... The artwork is very simple and could be a vinyl decal and look just as good. You could easily do vinyl decals on the tinted plexi too. I would get some white melamine from Home Depot and use it for the sides instead of paint.

Your Defender power supply is pretty specific... I would just research this game's requirements and go from there.

ChadTower · « **Reply #16 on:** August 27, 2009, 09:13:54 am »

The good news is you don't need plans. There is enough there to get your own measurements or even make a cardboard template from which you can make a router template. Is it solid enough to get scans of that artwork to be cleaned up?

Also consider that you don't have to make the new cab identical. It won't be original no matter what so you can choose to make something different to your own tastes. Just be sure to capture the original spirit and you'll still be all aces with us.

Majoraslayer · « **Reply #17 on:** August 27, 2009, 09:18:35 am »

I found a full service manual for it, so I'll be able to tell what voltages are needed where. The voltage signals needed are probably 5V and 12V, so if nothing else I can probably use a PC power supply and eliminate that huge, dangerous transformer. I've worked on PCB of "The Real Ghostbusters" that had been fitted to an OLD 1980's PC case this way.

That is, if I even NEED a power supply. This one is supposed to work.

As far as the cab goes, I'm going to try to be specific and build the new cab as close in every detail as possible to the original. It will be the original game in a replica cab.

ChadTower · « **Reply #18 on:** August 27, 2009, 09:22:35 am »

That's a TTL board. IIRC, A lot of those mid 70s Atari boards take in an unregulated 5v and convert it on board. It might even be AC coming in but I can't remember that one for sure. I do remember that my Tank II PCB takes the voltage right off the transformer so that's probably the case. You might be able to use a PC power supply but you'd have to find the spot where it is finally a clean +5v (and there might be a -5v too) and hack the PC +5v into that spot.

RetroACTIVE · « **Reply #19 on:** August 27, 2009, 10:50:17 am »

Quote from: ChadTower on August 27, 2009, 09:22:35 am

That's a TTL board. IIRC, A lot of those mid 70s Atari boards take in an unregulated 5v and convert it on board. It might even be AC coming in but I can't remember that one for sure. I do remember that my Tank II PCB takes the voltage right off the transformer so that's probably the case.

Pretty sure you are correct Chad... the big power transistor and filter caps on the pcb along with the transformer sitting all by itself are all pretty good indicators

ChadTower · « **Reply #20 on:** August 27, 2009, 11:02:32 am »

Quote from: RetroACTIVE on August 27, 2009, 10:50:17 am

Pretty sure you are correct Chad... the big power transistor and filter caps on the pcb along with the transformer sitting all by itself are all pretty good indicators

Heh, yeah, I took a look at the pic right after I posted that to make sure I was remembering correctly.

So, first approach would be to get that power supply section recapped, rebuild the bridge if it looks even a little toasty, and then look at the schematic to see what AC input you need. I wouldn't try to hack a PC power supply into there without knowing the board actually works first. Too many variables and places for those TTL chips to leak out just enough voltage to bring the whole game down weirdly.

BTW, if you need any info on rebuilding that monitor (it looks like a Motorola XM-501) find my Tank II thread. It's either in projects or restoration. There is a LOT of detail in there on that monitor including how to build a test adapter for powering it off the 110v from the wall and use a VCR as a known good input source.

RetroACTIVE · « **Reply #21 on:** August 27, 2009, 11:42:05 am »

.... and that big honkin' 10W wire-wound resistor

ChadTower · « **Reply #22 on:** August 27, 2009, 11:48:20 am »

Yeah, let's just hope that sucker is still good.

Level42 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 27, 2009, 02:57:41 pm »

You lazy lot

Yes, AC in all the way. And of course nice tropical voltages. 16,5 VAC and 25VAC.....

ChadTower · « **Reply #24 on:** August 27, 2009, 04:03:07 pm »

You could definitely get away with something similar but not exact on those AC voltages. Just don't go too much higher or lower. IIRC on the Tank II those 16.5 get rectified and then regulated to 12 and maybe 5 and -5 DC. Anything within the tolerance of the regulators should be fine.

Majoraslayer · « **Reply #25 on:** August 28, 2009, 03:22:59 pm »

Well, I took all of the electronics and such out of it, as well as the front overlay. In the process, most of the cab fell apart. The sides are each still intact, so I can get the measurements and scan the sideart. Scanning the artwork should be even easier now; I can just lay the side on a workbench.

I am a little concerned about the board. Everything looks fine except for a big, ceramic resistor next to that huge heatsink. It has cracks in it, which makes me wonder if it might be bad. I'm SO glad I found that service manual; it has very in-depth schematics, so I should be able to track down the value for it to replace it.

Level42 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 28, 2009, 04:14:05 pm »

Good thing you took everything out ! It wouldn't have surprised me if it would have collapsed and at least damage the monitor that way !

I've seen cracked ceramic resistors that are still fine by value, but there can be doubts about wether it still will dissipate the heat enough....

Majoraslayer · « **Reply #27 on:** August 28, 2009, 07:36:31 pm »

The area on the underside of the board, beneath that huge heatsink and ancient IC, is fairly black and brown from the heat. It would be nice if I could upgrade that heatsink, as its obviously still getting VERY hot. Its right next to that ceramic resistor too, so that could possible be it. I'll post pics later of that, as well as some more in-depth pics of the components.

Oh yeah, it turns out that it wasn't missing a pedal. The panel that pedal was bolted to was flipped upside down for some reason, I guess as it was just jammed in there for storage. It appears a rat made a nest under it too

Majoraslayer · « **Reply #28 on:** August 30, 2009, 12:20:37 am »

Well, I did some work on the power supply today. I sanded a lot of the rust off of the transformer and other metals parts, bolted everything onto a new piece of plywood so I could ditch that nasty rotten trash, and cleaned off all the cobwebs and junk from that area.

I also cleaned up the monitor, plexiglass, and bezel.

It turns out I'll need replacement speakers. Does anyone know of a good place to get cheap replacement speakers with the right impedance rating?

Level42 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 30, 2009, 04:50:29 am »

And do a search for "speaker". Not sure if they're the right size. Don't worry about the impedance, not that important.

ChadTower · « **Reply #30 on:** August 30, 2009, 03:00:40 pm »

You can just drop a car speaker in there if you can find one the right size. Don't go nuts looking for a good speaker to play buzzes and beeps.

Level42 · « **Reply #31 on:** August 30, 2009, 03:40:17 pm »

Heh, I forgot to include the link I had meant to put in there....

http://www.therealbobroberts.net/parts.html#atari

Really cheap speakers.

ChadTower · « **Reply #32 on:** August 30, 2009, 07:30:05 pm »

Meh, it's ridiculously easy to reap a cheap speaker locally. Get it from a car, from an old stereo, from a TV, it's just too easy to find to bother shipping one.

Majoraslayer · « **Reply #33 on:** August 30, 2009, 08:17:12 pm »

I'd rather get one from a TV. I've used car speakers in the wrong application before; trust me, its best to use the impedance the output amp was designed for rather than risk blowing the speaker output.

Well, I finally tried turning it on a few minutes ago. The speakers made a beeping racket (though it obviously wasn't the game), so that tells me the sound output of the board is working. Also, the monitor powered on nice and bright (though there were a couple of problems I'll get to in a minute). This also tells me that my power supply is good, and the power processing on-board is probably good.

Now for the problems. Note that when I was testing it, I didn't have any controls or the coin box attached as these controls (except for the steering wheel) were all momentary switches.

When I hold the power button down, the speakers make a constant noise like the Atari simulated engine patterns. All of the LEDs on the board light up (though for some reason my service manual doesn't seem to explain how to use them diagnostically. The screen is squished together toward the center (possibly just needing adjustment, or a cap kit). There doesn't appear to be any movement on the screen, but it is possible to see the flags lit up.

Any ideas on how to troubleshoot this?

Majoraslayer · « **Reply #34 on:** August 30, 2009, 10:20:37 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on August 27, 2009, 11:02:32 am

BTW, if you need any info on rebuilding that monitor (it looks like a Motorola XM-501) find my Tank II thread. It's either in projects or restoration. There is a LOT of detail in there on that monitor including how to build a test adapter for powering it off the 110v from the wall and use a VCR as a known good input source.

According to the service manual, it should be a Motorola XM701 with a 23-inch B&W screen. Though it powers on and shows a picture (sort of), when it powers off the screen shrinks down to a small dot in the center of the screen that slowly fades. Its also out of focus, so since I've not made any monitor adjustments I'm sure a cap kit would do it a lot of good.

Level42 · « **Reply #35 on:** August 31, 2009, 01:58:13 am »

Car speakers are not shielded and since they're pretty close to the screen on this cab I wouldn't use them, or at least check if there's any influence on the screen.

About the Ohms value: If you succeed in blowing that amp up because of the wrong impedance, you probably blew up your ears first. You will not be turning up the sound that high, especially not with the simple notorious sounds those oldies produce.

Majoraslayer · « **Reply #36 on:** August 31, 2009, 03:04:35 am »

The speakers are down next to the coin box; I would think that would put plenty of space away from the monitor. That volume control on the monitor doesn't actually do anything. These speakers don't look shielded at all, but I could be wrong. The sound seems to be turned all the way up at the moment as well.

ChadTower · « **Reply #37 on:** August 31, 2009, 11:58:36 am »

Quote from: Level42 on August 31, 2009, 01:58:13 am

Car speakers are not shielded and since they're pretty close to the screen on this cab I wouldn't use them, or at least check if there's any influence on the screen.

Pfft, if it waves the picture, just put a piece of metal between them.

RayB · « **Reply #38 on:** August 31, 2009, 01:57:27 pm »

5w 8 ohms

Stick to that.

Level42 · « **Reply #39 on:** August 31, 2009, 06:05:14 pm »

Sigh.....

The facts:
Check out the Crash-n-score manual:
The Crash-n-score PCB uses two LM380 sound amps, so each speaker has one LM380.

Check out the LM380 datasheet:
Repsonse charts are given for 4, 8 and 16 Ohms impedance speakers, so YES the LM380 WILL drive any of those.

People are confusing a 4 and an 8 Ohms impedance speaker like being it a 120VAC or 230 VAC mains difference, which it is not.

Yes, you do load the amp more with a lower impedance speaker but that doesn't mean it will blow it up.

Yes it will blow up if you run it on way too loud volume (which is clearly indicated by the sound getting distorted) for continuous time, but that's true for 4,8 and 16 Ohms impedance.

RetroACTIVE · « **Reply #40 on:** September 01, 2009, 09:48:51 am »

FWIW... I believe Bob sells perfect replacements for these ...

http://www.therealbobroberts.net/parts.html

8 ohm 12 watt shielded 5" round speaker $8.00

They are an exact fit for my Atari 4P football... and from what I can tell from the one picture it looks like your cab may use the same size as well.

...and they are shielded if you are worried about that.

hatrick · « **Reply #41 on:** September 01, 2009, 03:00:16 pm »

Quote from: Majoraslayer on August 28, 2009, 07:36:31 pm

The area on the underside of the board, beneath that huge heatsink and ancient IC, is fairly black and brown from the heat. It would be nice if I could upgrade that heatsink, as its obviously still getting VERY hot. Its right next to that ceramic resistor too, so that could possible be it. I'll post pics later of that, as well as some more in-depth pics of the components.

This board is very much like the Sprint 2 board, which I am fairly familiar with. If the area around that heatsink is getting excessively hot, the cause is most likely the 5 volt regulator in the middle of the heatsink. It is probably an lm323, which is an obsolete part, but I think cross references to an NTE931 (from memory, so double check). It also doesn't hurt to replace that resistor with one that is the same ohms value, but higher wattage so it can dissapate more heat.
Also, the volume is adjustable by a small pot by the large blue capacitor on the front left side of the board. On Sprint 2, there is a pot for each player, but not sure about yours.

Majoraslayer · « **Reply #42 on:** September 02, 2009, 12:15:01 am »

I found the volume pots, and there are two separate ones for each player. I'll see if replacing the voltage regulator has any effect. If nothing else, less heat damage would be a great start.

IG-88 · « **Reply #43 on:** August 26, 2010, 09:58:19 pm »

Hey Majoraslayer,

Been almost a year. Have you made any progress on this?


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