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New(ish) Rambo shooter
mwong168:
--- Quote from: DJ_Izumi on August 12, 2009, 01:58:08 am ---I think you guys are looking too far ahead. The NES is what I believe brought on the end of the arcade area, it took a LONG TIME for that to happen and the NES was only the begining of the end. The 'arcade' fell under hard times basicly from the Video Game Crash of 1983, while there was recovery, it was never the same for arcades as it was before. Now you had the NES and later systems which, maybe they didn't have the same graphics, they were in your living room and didn't demand quarters.
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I think everyone should have a look at this video called "The Death of Arcades"
http://www.onnetworks.com/videos/play-value/the-death-of-arcades
There are other interesting videos on the OnNetwork Play Value section such as the Fall of Atari, Rise of Nintendo and Failed Consoles #1, #2 were good ones.
MaximRecoil:
--- Quote from: isucamper on August 12, 2009, 08:39:49 am ---I do so with my face in my palm.
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Uh huh.
--- Quote from: MaximRecoil on August 11, 2009, 10:11:01 pm ---
--- Quote ---1. Neo Geo (1990) came before all of the console ports of the games you listed.
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Yeah, and lets look at the Neo Geo games that were out in 1990.
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So I guess you're just going to skip the fact that I typed that to directly refute your claim:
"Underpowered or not, there were plenty of competant arcade ports before the Neo Geo and Dreamcast. See Street Fighter series, Mortal Kombat series, Tekken, Smash TV, Total Carnage, Final Fight (Sega CD version was arcade perfect), Turtles in Time (SNES version was actually far superior to the Arcade version), NBA Jam, WWF Wrestlmania... those are just the ones I can pick off the top of my head."
And simply head off into a red herring tangent?
--- Quote ---http://maws.mameworld.info/maws/index.php?src=srch.php%3Fpage%3D1%26driver%3D608%26by%3Dyear
Those are hardly cutting edge. Neo geo games always trailed the best arcade games of their time... by years. Final Fight came out in 89. Neo Geo had Burning Fight in 1991. In 91 SF2 came out and soon after that the Neo Geo ripped it off with Fatal Fury, but Fatal Fury had all of 3 selectable characters and wasn't anywhere near the class of SF2. Really great Neo Geo games didn't come until LONG after 1990 and by that point, the Neo Geo hardware was as behind the times as the Nintendo Vs stuff. In the early 90s, Neo Geo games were the poor man's arcade games.
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In 1990, Neo Geo arcade hardware was as capable as any other arcade hardware out there. In terms of capability, it was between Capcom's CPS-1 and CPS-2 hardware; closer to CPS-2. CPS-1 came out in 1988, and CPS-2 came out in 1993. It doesn't matter at all that you didn't like the games. That is subjective and has nothing to do with the objective capabilities of the hardware. And those "great" Neo Geo games that you're talking about were still running on that same 1990 hardware.
--- Quote ---What exactly are you trying to argue here? That the Neo Geo was the first hardware used in both home games and arcade games? Your wrong. In 87, I played one of the greatest games ever made in a bowling alley near my house. That game was called Super Mario Brothers. That christmas, i was playing a near identical version of it at home.
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The Neo Geo was the first arcade hardware packaged for home use. The Vs. system was dated console hardware repackaged for arcade use. You don't see the difference there? Why do you think the Neo Geo cost ~$700 and the cartridges cost $200? Because high end (arcade level) custom hardware and that much memory wasn't cheap in the early 90's.
--- Quote ---Are you saying that Neo Geo was the first home console to offer a contemporary arcade game experience at home? Your wrong. Every step of the way, Neo geo games were ages behind the cutting edge arcade games of its time.
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You don't know what you're talking about; either that, or you are mistakenly talking about the gameplaying experience. I didn't like Neo Geo fighting games either, but that doesn't mean the hardware was weak in any way. Bad games can be (and usually are) created for any hardware system.
--- Quote ---The100 some arcade games based on Playstation 1 hardware say "hi". The home/arcade model that Sega used with Naomi was predated by the Playstation. There's even an emulator to run these games. It's called Zinc. You should check it out. http://www.emulator-zone.com/doc.php/arcade/zinc.html. You might remember such hits as the Tekken series, Soul Edge, Strider 2, Dead or Alive, etc...
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The Playstation is another instance of hardware designed for a home console being repackaged for the arcade; and Tekken looked horrible. The Playstation was "not yet ready for prime time" when it came to 3D polygon games, though it gave it the old college try (it was a 2D powerhouse however, though rarely used as such). Compare the hideous and dated-looking Playstation 3D games with the still beautiful Cruis'n USA and Cruis'n World arcade games from the same era; for example.
--- Quote ---Here's where you are just batty. Graphics and audio are the only objective points of comparison??? How about extra (and better) stages, bosses, bonus rounds and play mechanics. In fact, an updated version of the arcade game was just released on Xbox live and it's getting trounced because it's "missing" so much stuff. The people saying this are remembering the SNES port which was packed to the gills with enhancements that the arcade didn't have.
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That doesn't have anything to do with hardware capabilities; beyond additional ROM space for additional stages, etc. But you only need additional ROM space if all else is equal, which in this case, it is not. The SNES didn't use nearly as much ROM space because of the inferior graphics and audio, so it had room for some extra stuff compared to the arcade machine. The entire SNES cartridge was a "whopping" 8 Mb (1 MB) while the arcade version was 56 Mb (7 MB).
--- Quote ---I'm sorry for taking exception so passionatley to what your saying, but you act like you couldn't have an arcade experience at home until the Neo Geo, and that's just not true.
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Yes, it is true. There was no home console system prior to the Neo Geo that offered the same level of hardware as what currently was in the arcades. The reason? Cost. However, SNK decided to do it anyway, and charged accordingly.
--- Quote ---Early Neo Geo games were knock offs.
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Irrelevant. They had the same level of graphics and audio as competing arcade games, because they used then-current arcade-level hardware. For example, Fatal Fury (1991) has as good or better graphics and audio as Street Fighter II (1991). I think that SFII was a much better game, as do many (but not all) people, but that is irrelevant.
--- Quote ---Later Neo Geo games were behind the times in terms of technology. And Sega didn't invent the wheel with NAOMI.
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Also irrelevant. The later games are useful to show just how capable the hardware really was. Look at SVC Chaos: SNK Vs. Capcom (2003) sometime. That game has undoubtedly better graphics and audio than Street Fighter II: The World Warrior; and has Capcom-like playability too, at least when using the Capcom characters. It is amazing that 13 year old hardware (at the time), the same hardware you could buy in a home console in 1990, was capable of that.
isucamper:
--- Quote from: MaximRecoil on August 12, 2009, 11:45:59 am ---[ Look at SVC Chaos: SNK Vs. Capcom (2003) sometime. That game has undoubtedly better graphics and audio than Street Fighter II: The World Warrior; and has Capcom-like playability too, at least when using the Capcom characters.
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Yeah. Look at it. It came out in 2003. It is infinitely inferior to Capcom VS. SNK which came out 2 years earlier.
Look. We're obviously hung up on symmantics here. Your saying that when the Neo Geo came out in 1990, it was the most arcade like hardware you could get at home. Fine. I agree with you.
I'm saying that by the time it actually had any games that were memorable arcade games, it was not the most advanced arcade like hardware you could get at home.
isucamper:
Also, what your saying about the Playstation is completely false. Tekken 1 and Tekken 2 were almost arcade perfect. And ithe Playstation was NOT a 2D power house. Your thinking of the Saturn. Playstation struggled with anything 2D due to it's lack of video RAM. It couldn't even handle the Street Fighter Alpha series without dropping a lot of frames.
Bact to the Neo: The fact that developers were able to squeeze much more out of the Neo Geo later in it's life proves nothing. The only thing that matters is what it provided at any one particular time in comparison to everything else at that time.
Developers do amazing things given enough time on a particular platform. Look at the versions of Final Fight that came out on the NES towards it's end.
MaximRecoil:
Some people are fans of SNK fighting games, even preferring them to Capcom and others; and all of the big ones (Fatal Fury, Art of Fighting, King of Fighters, and Samurai Showdown) were released before the Playstation was, and they were on par with other 2D arcade fighting games at the time in terms of graphics and audio.
--- Quote ---Yeah. Look at it. It came out in 2003. It is infinitely inferior to Capcom VS. SNK which came out 2 years earlier.
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3 years earlier in fact; and yes, the graphics were superior; but that's beside the point (see my previous post). It is funny that you should mention that game, given that it ran on NAOMI hardware in the arcade; which is a good indicator of that platform's strength, in that Capcom chose to use it rather than their own CPS-3 hardware. It ran perfectly on the Dreamcast of course, for obvious reasons.
--- Quote ---Also, what your saying about the Playstation is completely false. Tekken 1 and Tekken 2 were almost arcade perfect.
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I never said they weren't "arcade perfect". They were arcade perfect because the Tekken and Tekken 2 arcade hardware was simply a PlayStation with ROM chips rather than a CD drive, and a JAMMA connector. That doesn't change the fact that the Playstation was developed as home console hardware that got repackaged as arcade hardware. It also doesn't change the fact that Tekken was ugly as homemade shoes, as were all Playstation 3D games. With the PS, Sony didn't decide to wait until the technology was available at a reasonable price to create nice looking 3D graphics on a home console; they simply said "Screw it; good enough."
--- Quote ---And ithe Playstation was NOT a 2D power house. Your thinking of the Saturn. Playstation struggled with anything 2D due to it's lack of video RAM. It couldn't even handle the Street Fighter Alpha series without dropping a lot of frames.
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Have you played Castlevania: Symphony of the Night? Also, I've played the Street Fighter Collection on a PlayStation and didn't notice any issues; aside from the PS controller's D-pad which is hard to hit diagonals with consistently; which is horrible for a fighting game. The SNES had the best D-pad for fighting games IMO.
--- Quote ---Bact to the Neo: The fact that developers were able to squeeze much more out of the Neo Geo later in it's life proves nothing. The only thing that matters is what it provided at any one particular time in comparison to everything else at that time.
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It proves that the hardware was capable of such performance all along. It doesn't matter either way, because the graphics and audio of the early '90s Neo Geo games were on par with anything else in the arcade at the time anyway; because it was a similar level of hardware to anything else in the arcade at the time.
--- Quote ---Developers do amazing things given enough time on a particular platform. Look at the versions of Final Fight that came out on the NES towards it's end.
--- End quote ---
That's a different scenario. A lot of the later cartridges for the NES had add-on hardware built into them; which is the same idea as adding something like the Starpath Supercharger to the Atari 2600, or the 32X to the Genesis. It results in a different overall hardware system. Nothing like that was done with later Neo Geo games.
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