Looking for clear answer regarding D9200 and Radeon 7500

[tritonarcade]

I've just started to build my cab, it's all I've been able to think about this weekend.  All of my parts are ordered and I'm trying to learn everything I can while they magically float to my apartment via UPS, DHL, and FedEx from the four corners of our great land.  I'm excited as hell and I am grateful to you all for the information already on this board and the hard work that went into knowing how to put these systems together.

Anyway, I need to know if a D9200 and an original ATI Radeon 7500 running AdvanceMAME under Win98SE will give me all of the resolution and sync modes available.  If not, what will I be missing.  I've spent two days reading through threads and have been able to piece together a lot but I would still appreciate a clear answer.  My goal of course is to be able to emulate as many games as possible in the windows environment in their original modes, scanlines, resolution, sync rates and all.

What would an ArcadeVGA or T64 do for me that the 7500 couldn't beyond interlacing capabilities which aren't applicable for my D9200 setup?

One thing that confused me: According to http://easymamecab.mameworld.net/html/hardware.htm, the best video card for my setup is the T64.  He mentions the 7500 for the WindowsMAME machine but does not specifically say that it would work for the AdvanceMAME Arcade Monitor setup.

Anyone know if a Radeon 8500 would work in place of the 7500? I plan on putting some 3d golf games on the machine as well so the added 3D power would be helpful.

Thanks so much, and I'm happy to be a part of this forum.  Why didn't I do this earlier??  

[tritonarcade]

By the way I have seen this post from Desmatic, it is very clear:

"Bascially, ArcadeVGA was designed to display 240 lines at 15kHz x 60Hz.  The D9200 can run x192 (doublescan), x224, x240, x256, x384 at various hclocks.  If you use ArcadeVGA you are perfectly emulating only one mode out of five, x240, which is not even the most popular mode. x224 is.  So basically.

Using Windows MAME with ArcadeVGA
(1) supports all windows operatings systems, including Windows XP

Using AdvanceMAME with the D9200
(1) requires either T64, Matrox G400, or ATI Radeon 7500 (Original Retail Release)
(2) requires Windows 9x (DOS based OS) or Linux
(3) Enables perfect emulation

ArcadeVGA was not designed for the D9200, it was designed for a typical 15.7kHz arcade monitor.  If enough people ask Andy, over at Ultimarc, to design a mode list for just this monitor, then you would have a perfect alternative to AdvanceMAME.  Actually, a mode list designed for a PC monitor, would be cool as well."


But nobody else seemed to confirm it's accuracy and there have been conflicting remarks.  So if anyone can confirm that Desmatic is correct with the above post, that is good enough for me.

[SirPoonga]

hmm, Been awhile since I was a normal user, and I know things changed.  You should be able to modify your original post to change the title.

[tritonarcade]

Thanks SirPoonga for some reason the Modify option wasn't showing up before.

[desmatic]

I've just started to build my cab, it's all I've been able to think about this weekend.  All of my parts are ordered and I'm trying to learn everything I can while they magically float to my apartment via UPS, DHL, and FedEx from the four corners of our great land.  I'm excited as hell and I am grateful to you all for the information already on this board and the hard work that went into knowing how to put these systems together.

Anyway, I need to know if a D9200 and an original ATI Radeon 7500 running AdvanceMAME under Win98SE will give me all of the resolution and sync modes available.  If not, what will I be missing.  I've spent two days reading through threads and have been able to piece together a lot but I would still appreciate a clear answer.  My goal of course is to be able to emulate as many games as possible in the windows environment in their original modes, scanlines, resolution, sync rates and all.

What would an ArcadeVGA or T64 do for me that the 7500 couldn't beyond interlacing capabilities which aren't applicable for my D9200 setup?

One thing that confused me: According to http://easymamecab.mameworld.net/html/hardware.htm, the best video card for my setup is the T64.  He mentions the 7500 for the WindowsMAME machine but does not specifically say that it would work for the AdvanceMAME Arcade Monitor setup.

Anyone know if a Radeon 8500 would work in place of the 7500? I plan on putting some 3d golf games on the machine as well so the added 3D power would be helpful.

Thanks so much, and I'm happy to be a part of this forum.  Why didn't I do this earlier??  

The 8500 will not work.   An ATI 7500 (original chipset release, built by ATI) will work flawlessly with win98se and AdvanceMAME on the D9200.  They only thing that won't work are interlace modes, which you won't need.

[tritonarcade]

Spoken from the man himself.  Okay, thanks a lot!

While I've got you here, how about chips faster than the 8500?  Any experiences with the 9000 series?

[AndyWarne]

The post by Desmatic was not 100% correct.

The ArcadeVGA card has 28 resolutions which cover all 15Khz games with negligible borders and with exact vertical refresh for almost all these games.
The D9200 utility also allows this monitor to display 31Khz modes such as 640 X 480, 800 X 600 and 1024 X 768. All non-interlaced.

So it pretty much covers everything the D9200 can handle. The only modes that are not covered "natively" are the 25Khz game modes and some odd 31Khz modes that a few games use. That's not to say they can't be displayed of course, these can be played in any of the other modes, either 15 or 31 Khz, using HW stretch. Using the Direct3D option in the latest MAME with Sharpen is rumored to give excellent results (I have yet to try it myself).

Although the original poster was actually asking about the T64!

[desmatic]

The post by Desmatic was not 100% correct.

The ArcadeVGA card has 28 resolutions which cover all 15Khz games with negligible borders and with exact vertical refresh for almost all these games.
The D9200 utility also allows this monitor to display 31Khz modes such as 640 X 480, 800 X 600 and 1024 X 768. All non-interlaced.

So it pretty much covers everything the D9200 can handle. The only modes that are not covered "natively" are the 25Khz game modes and some odd 31Khz modes that a few games use. That's not to say they can't be displayed of course, these can be played in any of the other modes, either 15 or 31 Khz, using HW stretch. Using the Direct3D option in the latest MAME with Sharpen is rumored to give excellent results (I have yet to try it myself).

Although the original poster was actually asking about the T64!

Which part was incorrect?

[DeathMonk]

I think there needs to be an update and/or new card for the ArcadeVGA+D9200 to support EVERY mode arcade games had..

[bigmoe]

The 8500 will not work.   An ATI 7500 (original chipset release, built by ATI) will work flawlessly with win98se and AdvanceMAME on the D9200.  They only thing that won't work are interlace modes, which you won't need.

The 8500 & 8500 DV aiw are both listed on the advance supported card lists:
dos - http://advancemame.sourceforge.net/doc-carddos.html
win - http://advancemame.sourceforge.net/doc-cardwin.html
linux - http://advancemame.sourceforge.net/doc-cardlinx.html

I know, desmatic, that if anyone would know whether these cards would work, it would be you.  I'm just confused...?  Is there additional compatability information out there I'm missing?

Incidently, I have been wondering as I've read through these posts...is Win98SE required, or will Win98FE (or whatever) work, too?

Thanks!

bm

[desmatic]

SVGA lib support is tricky / complicated.


The radeon driver was developed on a ATI 7500.  I have personally tested a 7500 and it works perfectly.  The 8500 should theoretically work, but I highly doubt it will, as it's chipset is quite different than a 7500.  It's important that the chipset that the driver was developed on be identical to the chipset on the card you are using.  Slight modifications will result in incompatibilities / problems.  You can test an 8500, however, I very much doubt it will work.  

To test a card just run advance cd on a PC monitor.  If you don't have any problems playing games, then your card is supported.

[bigmoe]

I would hate to test it on a PC monitor and have it test okay in some generic sense...perhaps using some standard SVGA fall-back...but then not have it work on a D9200 at 15 kHz.  

But it's good to know there's a way to test it without blowing anything up  .

(I don't currently have either card, but like tritonarcade, heck, a little more power couldn't hurt if I wanted to run something else.  But MAME first!)

Thanks, desmatic!  I'm a coward, so I'll probably stick to the tried-and-true...

[AndyWarne]

Since this has moved to the top of the threads again, and I have a few mins, I'll address Desmatics question about which part of his post was incorrect. (sorry if this is a bit off topic from the original thread)
This is actually covered in my Arcade Monitor FAQ but anyway:  In fact, if you look at it in terms of actual lines, not including borders, an arcade monitor cannot actually display 224 lines. If we assume 224 lines plus 10 lines for flyback, zero for borders, this is 234 lines. Using the formula HFreq/Lines = vrefresh, this gives a vertical refresh rate of 64 Hz which is outside the range of the monitor (probably outside the D9200 range also)
But what about all those games which specify their resolutions as 224 lines? The answer is they used borders top and bottom and the monitor was adjusted to overscan.
If you set up a 224 line resolution and a 240 line resolution and stick to 60Hz (the pixel clock has no effect here), and then run a 224 line game on each, then you will end up with exactly the same result. Top and bottom borders. In the first case the borders will be inherent in the modeline, in the second they will be added by MAME.
This would happen by whatever method you used to generate the modeline including Advanced MAME and the only way around it is to depart from the 60Hz vertical and 15Khz horizontal frequencies. I don't know if the D9200 can handle, say, 13Khz.
This is why the ArcadeVGA does not contain 224 line modes, they are superfluous as the 240 line modes are identical.
The ArcadeVGA card was not specifically designed to support only 240 lines though, it will support all of the other modes above this, at 15Khz, by varying pixel clock and vertical refresh within the limits of 50-60 Hz.
Plus 31 Khz modes at 640 X 480, 800X 600 and 1024 X 768 if required.

[squizz]

I think there needs to be an update and/or new card for the ArcadeVGA+D9200 to support EVERY mode arcade games had..

 Would like to see that too !!!!

[Wienerdog]

I think there needs to be an update and/or new card for the ArcadeVGA+D9200 to support EVERY mode arcade games had..

Would like to see that too !!!!

Okay, now I am getting confused about who is being sarcastic and who is being serious.

Thanks for the clarifications Andy, we appreciate the work you've done.  It is amazing how clear these topics are when you know what you're talking about and how unclear these topics are when you still don't understand.  

[Dariusz]

Hi Andy,

Here's the datasheet for the WG D9200. Hope it helps you out.

http://www.wellsgardner.com/wellsgardner31/supportdata/27%20inch%20D9200%20black%20&%20white.pdf

Kind Regards,

Dariusz

Since this has moved to the top of the threads again, and I have a few mins, I'll address Desmatics question about which part of his post was incorrect. (sorry if this is a bit off topic from the original thread)
This is actually covered in my Arcade Monitor FAQ but anyway:  In fact, if you look at it in terms of actual lines, not including borders, an arcade monitor cannot actually display 224 lines. If we assume 224 lines plus 10 lines for flyback, zero for borders, this is 234 lines. Using the formula HFreq/Lines = vrefresh, this gives a vertical refresh rate of 64 Hz which is outside the range of the monitor (probably outside the D9200 range also)
But what about all those games which specify their resolutions as 224 lines? The answer is they used borders top and bottom and the monitor was adjusted to overscan.
If you set up a 224 line resolution and a 240 line resolution and stick to 60Hz (the pixel clock has no effect here), and then run a 224 line game on each, then you will end up with exactly the same result. Top and bottom borders. In the first case the borders will be inherent in the modeline, in the second they will be added by MAME.
This would happen by whatever method you used to generate the modeline including Advanced MAME and the only way around it is to depart from the 60Hz vertical and 15Khz horizontal frequencies. I don't know if the D9200 can handle, say, 13Khz.
This is why the ArcadeVGA does not contain 224 line modes, they are superfluous as the 240 line modes are identical.
The ArcadeVGA card was not specifically designed to support only 240 lines though, it will support all of the other modes above this, at 15Khz, by varying pixel clock and vertical refresh within the limits of 50-60 Hz.
Plus 31 Khz modes at 640 X 480, 800X 600 and 1024 X 768 if required.

[desmatic]

Since this has moved to the top of the threads again, and I have a few mins, I'll address Desmatics question about which part of his post was incorrect. (sorry if this is a bit off topic from the original thread)
This is actually covered in my Arcade Monitor FAQ but anyway:  In fact, if you look at it in terms of actual lines, not including borders, an arcade monitor cannot actually display 224 lines. If we assume 224 lines plus 10 lines for flyback, zero for borders, this is 234 lines. Using the formula HFreq/Lines = vrefresh, this gives a vertical refresh rate of 64 Hz which is outside the range of the monitor (probably outside the D9200 range also)
But what about all those games which specify their resolutions as 224 lines? The answer is they used borders top and bottom and the monitor was adjusted to overscan.
If you set up a 224 line resolution and a 240 line resolution and stick to 60Hz (the pixel clock has no effect here), and then run a 224 line game on each, then you will end up with exactly the same result. Top and bottom borders. In the first case the borders will be inherent in the modeline, in the second they will be added by MAME.
This would happen by whatever method you used to generate the modeline including Advanced MAME and the only way around it is to depart from the 60Hz vertical and 15Khz horizontal frequencies. I don't know if the D9200 can handle, say, 13Khz.
This is why the ArcadeVGA does not contain 224 line modes, they are superfluous as the 240 line modes are identical.
The ArcadeVGA card was not specifically designed to support only 240 lines though, it will support all of the other modes above this, at 15Khz, by varying pixel clock and vertical refresh within the limits of 50-60 Hz.
Plus 31 Khz modes at 640 X 480, 800X 600 and 1024 X 768 if required.

The d9200 is special.  It has a 1kHz range at 15.72, 25, 31.5 hclocks.  As it only takes a 1kHz range to get 224 and 240 modes with no borders, the d9200 is quite capable of perfectly emulating both modes with no borders.  

As you indicated, inorder to emulate both 224 and 240 line modes perfectly on the same 15.72 you would need to adjust the screen size using your monitor controls (this is what most people don't understand).  

I get a lot of emails asking how to get both modes to work perfectly.  There are only three solutions

1. use one monitor for 224 lines and another for 240 lines
2. overclock / underclock your monitor (1kHz range)
3. adjust your display using your arcade monitor controls between 224 line and 240 line modes (impractical)

While the borders maybe small, and most people might not even notice them, they do produce an image with a slightly different aspect ratio than the original.