Legality of controller PCB hacks/mods

[SG Jaycurl]

Just curious if anyone knows the legality of hacking/modding a controller PCB? I know there are potential ramifications for modding an XBox (such as being banned from XBL). Does the same apply for controllers?

Just curious, as I've seen differing opinions on other sites.

[HaRuMaN]

Just curious if anyone knows the legality of hacking/modding a controller PCB? I know there are potential ramifications for modding an XBox (such as being banned from XBL). Does the same apply for controllers?

Just curious, as I've seen differing opinions on other sites.

Well... as you aren't trying to bypass copyright protections, etc, I would say no.

[Malenko]

Just curious if anyone knows the legality of hacking/modding a controller PCB? I know there are potential ramifications for modding an XBox (such as being banned from XBL). Does the same apply for controllers?

Just curious, as I've seen differing opinions on other sites.

Well... as you aren't trying to bypass copyright protections, etc, I would say no.

theres nothing illegal about using a modded stick for like Street Fighter, however rapid fire mods are a violation of xbox live TOS; no LEGAL ramifications though

[SG Jaycurl]

Thanks, guys. It was something I didn't even think about until the issue came up on another site.

[SavannahLion]

I had to deal with this topic about five years ago, I haven't had to worry about it since. I have to recall from memory too many details but here goes.

What the opposing opinions you're seeing are probably referring to is a section of the DMCA related to circumventing protections within a specific system.

Reverse engineering (and by extension, hardware hacks and mods) are a protected legal right in the U.S. I don't recall the specific legal code, but it's in there. What most companies leverage (and usually makes the news) is actually a portion of the DMCA that deals with circumventing protections and access controls within the systems (whether those protections are hardware or software based is usually moot).

This doesn't mean that one can reverse engineer a non-protected circuit board (not hard as long as you have the money and tools) and expect to make oodles of cash making copycat products, one still has to navigate any patent landmines. This is probably another topic entirely anyways.

Then you've got the XBL TOS. To me, that's like a home owners association. Full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and nonsense with a bunch of ---punks--- who have no imagination to see pink flamingos or yellow giraffes in others front yards. The TOS makes things kind of messy, a little bit like a EULA.

In any case, when modifying a system, one has to ask oneself, are you bypassing any security measures placed within the PCB? If the answer is yes, then yeah, you're probably going to bump up against that craptastic DMCA nonsense. If the answer is no, then you're still within legal waters.

Lastly, in the end, is anything you do going to directly affect the gameplay of another player pr get you banned from somewhere? eg on XBL? If the answer is no, then who gives a ---fudgesicle---? Nobody will know.

[Grasshopper]

It's a sad reflection of the corporate dominated world we now live in that this question even gets asked.

Until a few years ago it was very simple. If you bought something it was yours and you could do whatever you liked with it, apart from copying it. Now corporations like Sony and Microsoft would have us believe that we don't actually buy things any more. Instead we buy licences, and generally the terms of the license run to many pages of indecipherable legal jargon that no one's got the time or inclination to read. Oh, and you don't get a chance to read the terms of the license until after you've bought the product! It's all a load of BS and most of the legal issues haven't been properly tested in the courts anyway.

I seriously doubt whether hacking a controller is illegal. But even if M$ claims it is (and I wouldn't put it past them), who cares? It's the result of a very bad law with little public support that came about through intense corporate lobbying, instead of a democratic process. So it's a law you can ignore with a clear conscience.

[Malenko]

Then you've got the XBL TOS. To me, that's like a home owners association. Full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and nonsense with a bunch of ---punks--- who have no imagination to see pink flamingos or yellow giraffes in others front yards.

Well I agree with you, but you do have to see why they don't want controller mods, if a guy has a pistol that shoots faster then your UZI you would get pissed when he's owning you. However I think making a street fighter stick, while an advantage to an extent, shouldnt be a violation of the TOS

[escher]

theres nothing illegal about using a modded stick for like Street Fighter, however rapid fire mods are a violation of xbox live TOS; no LEGAL ramifications though

Really?  I think even that is XBL kosher, considering the MadCatz SFIV sticks include turbo functionality.

[extendedplayarcade]

Then you've got the XBL TOS. To me, that's like a home owners association. Full of ---Cleveland steamer--- and nonsense with a bunch of ---punks--- who have no imagination to see pink flamingos or yellow giraffes in others front yards.

Well I agree with you, but you do have to see why they don't want controller mods, if a guy has a pistol that shoots faster then your UZI you would get pissed when he's owning you. However I think making a street fighter stick, while an advantage to an extent, shouldnt be a violation of the TOS

I been getting owned left and right by that situation.

But I look at it as "shame on me" for not getting one of these turbo buttons installed on my controller

http://cgi.ebay.com/Xbox-360-Dual-Button-Rapid-Fire-Controller-mod-kit-COD_W0QQitemZ110371021343QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVideo_Games_Accessories?hash=item110371021343&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1308|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

I am just wondering which one is the best to buy?  Hitting that little button for more than a few games will get old.  I really want to use the trigger.

I think of it this way "don't bring a knife to a gun fight"

[extendedplayarcade]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TRGj_efc9I&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2FXbox-360-Adjustable-Modded-Rapid-Fire-TURBO-Controller_W0QQitemZ110344637986QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVideo_Games&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

bunch of videos on youtube.com about it

looks like to much fun

[extendedplayarcade]

 

[Malenko]

theres nothing illegal about using a modded stick for like Street Fighter, however rapid fire mods are a violation of xbox live TOS; no LEGAL ramifications though

Really?  I think even that is XBL kosher, considering the MadCatz SFIV sticks include turbo functionality.

if you can play a FPS with the street fighter stick, you deserve to win.

[escher]

theres nothing illegal about using a modded stick for like Street Fighter, however rapid fire mods are a violation of xbox live TOS; no LEGAL ramifications though

Really?  I think even that is XBL kosher, considering the MadCatz SFIV sticks include turbo functionality.

if you can play a FPS with the street fighter stick, you deserve to win.

It also gives an advantage in non-FPS games like, for example, Street Fighter...

[northerngames]

its like making your blinker in your car blink faster when you turn the corner 

ever seen a 360 or xbox with blinking leds in the console or controllers?

what about the high performance chips made by third party car part makers that change the cars timing air intake rev limiters etc..

radar detectors can be bought but not used 

ever seen fast and furious? I dont recall but did the auto makers pitch a ---smurfette--- about what they did to those poor cars?

I do recall honda & toyota sale's going through the roof at the time though.

as many kits that are on ebay and various other sites if anything M$ has made/sold millions of controllers that may have never been sold or made becuase so and so never got a chance to ruin his trying to solder on it and then was forced to go out and buy a new replacement..

[shmokes]

I haven't had any intellectual property classes yet (taking one in the fall, though), but here's what I've managed to glean from briefly touching on the subject in other classes.

Intellectual property breaks down into a few areas:

Patent
Copyright
Trade Mark
Trade Dress (e.g., shape of a Coke bottle)
Trade Secret
Geographic Markers (e.g., Champagne, Bourbon, Scotch)

I may be missing one or two.  Like I say, I haven't had a class.  At any rate, patent enjoys much stronger protection than trade secret, though both protect similar things.  It's illegal for you to steal and use trade secrets, but if you can reverse engineer them, you can use the "copied" product all you want.  People use trade secrets for a variety of reasons.  One is that they may be secrets.  Patents must be filed well before the product hits the shelves and may tip your hand to your competitors (because the product has to be described in more or less detail with drawings and such in the patent application).  Also, some things simply can't be patented for a variety of reasons, like they're too obvious.  For example, KFC would never be able to patent their 11 herbs and spices recipe.  They could sue and win an employee who left the company and started a competing company using their trade secrets.  But they would have no recourse against someone who figured out the recipe through trial and error.  But reverse engineering won't get you around a patent.  If I've patented an idea or a product, forget about it.  For better or worse you can't make a too-similar product.  Period.

Printed circuit boards, from what I understand, are actually covered by copyright.  I find this really strange.  Copyright protects expressions, not ideas.  So I can't plagiarize J.K. Rowling, but I can certainly write another book about a kid who finds out he's a wizard and is whisked away into a fantasy world of wizards and witches.  The only thing I can think of is that corporations lobbied for copyright protection of circuit boards because copyrights last MUCH longer than patents.  Still, though, a patent lasts 20 years and I can't imagine any given circuit board design is of much use 20 years later. 

Anyway, the DMCA is concerned with copyright.  And the anti-circumvention stuff says:

No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title.

I suppose the argument would go:

1- The printed circuit board is a copyright protected work.
2- The casing and screws are a technological measure controlling access to the copyrighted work inside.
3- Thus, opening the controller is a violation of DMCA

I think this argument fails for a bunch of reasons.  One is that number 2 up there is a pretty tough sell, IMO.  The case is there to physically protect the circuit board, not as a copyright protection.  And in any case, it's certainly not effectively controlling access if it can be opened with a screwdriver. 

Remember that making changes to a copyrighted work is not at all illegal.  You can write in a book all you want.  The primary target of copyright is the unauthorized copying of protected works.  You might run into an issue if you were selling these sticks because commercial activity is given much closer scrutiny than personal activity.  But I can hardly imagine you would ever have an issue if you were altering these sticks for your own purposes.  I'd stop short of guaranteeing it, cos the law really can be an ass sometimes.  But I think it's super unlikely.

[SavannahLion]

Shmokes, I'm not saying I'm not an expert by any means.

I grew tired of ---smurfing--- with morons out there inaccurately citing obscure sections of code in an attempt to justify what is clearly a violation of some law or another. They need to quit hiding behind some lame ass shroud and realize what they're doing is what it is. They'll feel much better as a pirate. You on the other hand seem to have a pretty good grasp on what you're talking about and don't go around pretending things are different.

So, in a vain attempt to try and open up a discussion and broaden scope.

1- The printed circuit board is a copyright protected work.
2- The casing and screws are a technological measure controlling access to the copyrighted work inside.
3- Thus, opening the controller is a violation of DMCA

I think this argument fails for a bunch of reasons.  One is that number 2 up there is a pretty tough sell, IMO.  The case is there to physically protect the circuit board, not as a copyright protection.  And in any case, it's certainly not effectively controlling access if it can be opened with a screwdriver. 

 I think the "spirit" of 1201(a) points towards technological measures beyond reasonable capabilities of your average consumer (given that the average consumer likely can't even change the oil in their own car, this probably isn't too hard to accomplish). So if the manufacturer uses phillips screws, then it really isn't a reasonable technological measure controlling access. If, however, they decide to use a proprietary bit (let's call it a Bob bit), then is the Bob bit considered a technological measure since no reasonable person would own such a bit? Besides, wasn't this very idea tested sometime in the early 90's? Some radio company or something tried to test this very idea?

It's illegal for you to steal and use trade secrets, but if you can reverse engineer them, you can use the "copied" product all you want.

I believe this is exactly what the legendary Atari vs Nintendo (amongst many others) court case proves.

In any case, I digress, copyright vs patents on circuit boards. I have seen patents on PCB's moreso than copyrights (Patent numbers are how I've identified some older PCB's. Better to go with the FCC ID number). Though, I have read about companies copyrighting circuit boards. Am I wrong that what sets PCB's apart from most er... technology is how they're created?

Copyrights don't apply to er... objects. So if I build a new kind of wheelbarrow, I can't copyright it, it's patented. But, if I draw, paint or print a nice beautiful logo on that wheelbarrow, then the logo is copyrightable (it's also a trademark, but that's not the point). I think where circuit boards really get the advantage is due the process of creating the traces on that board. It's, more or less, drawn out in an artistic fashion then etched into the PCB. Conversely, if I develop a new type of USB-like interface to be used on this copyrighted PCB, then that component is patented, not copyrighted. It's not a piece of art. The same holds true for the actual communication between components, it's patentable, not copyrightable. In the end, a PCB enjoys protections from both depending on which part of the PCB you're referring to.

Get's kind of dizzying without crib sheets here.

So here's where I think things get ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up with the DMCA. Take the NES and the Atari vs Nintendo (1989ish?) case. We're agreed that reverse engineering is a protected right such as under the Semiconductor Chip Protection Act (est. 1984 part of Article 17 of the copyright). So Nintendo would have lost the case had Atari's lawyers not went down to the patent (U.S. patent 4,736,419) office for the chip data. The DMCA 1201(a) comes in and attempts to take away a right built within the SCPA (and others).

So you can intercept the patented communication protocol between two copyrighted circuits (or even within) and still stay within legal boundries? But try to create a drop in interface/replacement to the copyrighted circuit is not?




Holy crap. The power cut out and FF saved my response. YAY! I was going to be so depressed.  Go FF!!

[danny_galaga]

Wow! A lot of text for something that is plainly not going have any legal ramifications. Just do the thought experiment; can you imagine being in court for hacking a joypad?

[SG Jaycurl]

I'm definitely not worried about someone from Microsoft or Madcatz coming to my house to sue me for making a joystick out of their pcb. It was initially a question of curiosity.

But I've also seen some folks who build joysticks and sell them online. I was sort of curious if that was actually legal, or if they just haven't been caught or aren't a big enough deal to garner attention.

[northerngames]

nobody is printing the pcb's to the T for their arcade or rapid fire controller and producing look alike counterfit 360 pcb's out of their shed.

nobody is taking the copyrighted chip or code off the pcb and putting it on another pcb.

if your button gets stuck you have a right to open it and get the sticky pop  spill out.

you have a right to burn it beat it drill it or shoot it if needed in order to get it open if need be becuase its yours the rightfull owner and your entitled to do self repairs.

arcade and rapid fire mods are not copying anything on the PCB, chips,case or code.

nobody that I know of is trying to patent or copyright the rapid fire or arcade controller mods either.

if I wanted to add wings a tail and some rope and fly it like a kite I could do so but no I could not patent or copyright my new flying wireless controller either

[shmokes]

Well . . . all of those things probably should be true.  And most of them probably are true.  But some of them may not.  What you mean to say is that if any of them are not true then the law is an ass.  And it very much is sometimes.  Take the DMCA, for example.

And remember that while copyright concerns itself largely with copying, that's not its exclusive concern.  Take, for example, the nonexistence of Cleanflix, the company that edited the naughty parts out of Rated R films and resold them.  Or, for example, that BYU (Mormon university) can no longer splice out the naughty parts of films and show them in their on-campus theater.  BTW, both of those companies are located in Provo, Utah. 

Anyway, ask me questions in October.  I'll know much more then.   

[northerngames]

but they were not the owners of the films correct?

the controller you are the rightfull owner of your self after you have bought and paid for it but you do not own the patent or copyright.

did these company own them films and pay for them or did they belong to somebody else that paid for them and never had sold them the films to them companys to begin with.

 or were they selling copys that were edited copyrighted material that belonged to somebody else?

 what there doing would be like making copies of the 360 pcb and editing the code and selling that them that way when they dont own that pcb copyright patent or code that they were selling "COPY'S" of.

 nobodys doing that for arcade or rapid fire mods that I have ever heard of.

for instance I take lord of the rings and 300 chop them up 30 times each throw them together and now I have a movie called 300 rings of the lord now playing.

 I am not the rightfull owner of the films so they would not put my edited movie on theatre's becuase I used someone else's property

your the owner of the disk or vcr tape but not the actual movie.

nobody is copying the pcb, chips, case, code, screws, patent or copyright when making a controller for arcade use or rapid fire.

 

[danny_galaga]

I'm definitely not worried about someone from Microsoft or Madcatz coming to my house to sue me for making a joystick out of their pcb. It was initially a question of curiosity.

But I've also seen some folks who build joysticks and sell them online. I was sort of curious if that was actually legal, or if they just haven't been caught or aren't a big enough deal to garner attention.

also, think about all the aftermarket controllers on the market. I think of late, only Nyko have been hassled for their wireless nunchuk...

[northerngames]

 its like an automobile no you cannot mass produce the car or truck to be the same exact model that chevy made and sell them that way.

 but you have all the right to buy 10 from chevy and turn them into funny cars demoltion cars muscle cars back to the future cars monster trucks etc. and when your tired and bored of them you have a right to sell them highly modified beast.

you can change them sticky non working happ buttons in the midway cab over to sanwa if you want to it's alright.

you can change that wells gardner monitor to a nanao if you want to.

you can use the 3rd party off brand PSU when your stock one dies out its alright.

[shmokes]

The similarities will only take you so far.  The DMCA (and other copyright law) does not apply to any of those things.  You can also drill the locks out of your car door and have new ones installed, or leave them off entirely.  Even though you own the DVD you purchased, you cannot drill out its locks (deCSS).  I get the logic of what you're saying.  It just doesn't always work that way. 

[escher]

The similarities will only take you so far.  The DMCA (and other copyright law) does not apply to any of those things.  You can also drill the locks out of your car door and have new ones installed, or leave them off entirely.  Even though you own the DVD you purchased, you cannot drill out its locks (deCSS).  I get the logic of what you're saying.  It just doesn't always work that way. 

Exactly.  Right or wrong, there are restrictions on usage of a whole lot of modern technology.  Software is a bigger gray area with EULAs and their questionable legality/enforcability, but anything involving modern tech may have similar issues.

Hell, even as far as a car goes there are restrictions.  You can't buy a car, alter the odometer, and then sell it.

[northerngames]

 Right but your allowed to burn beat and drill as many actual disk as you feel the need to as long as their your disk.

 Your also right instead it could be removed and replaced with new like the guys on the TV show called overhaulin where the get some junkers in and there on there last leg and then redo them/mod them and replace that odemeter with a brand new one and if the owner decides to sell it I am sure they would not have a problem.

 I also dont recall pretty much anything that is setup for racing having a odemeter in it and there allowed to sell them still with or without one.

they dont say oop the odometer broke we better take the car rail or monster truck to the scrap yard now its useless.

[shmokes]

Again . . . that doesn't have anything to do with copyright law.  PCBs can be covered by copyrights.  That is effing retarded, but it is still the law.  You typically cannot alter and then resell material that is protected by copyright.  I honestly have no idea how this would play out in the case of a modified controller.  Like I say, my knowledge of copyright law is extremely limited.  Maybe the court would say that while the controller was altered, none of the copyrighted content was altered.  Or maybe not.  But regardless, the court would not consider all these metaphors being thrown around.  They're not applicable.  Cars aren't copyrighted.

[northerngames]

nobody is making copy's of the copyrighted pcb's though 
 

[shmokes]

You typically cannot alter and then resell material that is protected by copyright. 

See quote.

Again . . . I should stress that I haven't read case law about this, and I haven't had a copyright, or even a general IP class.  I'm not saying that a court would definitely come down on the side of the copyright holder if one was retarded enough to sue.  But I think there's a reasonably good chance, based on what little I do know.

[northerngames]

so your saying if a monitor went bad and it used 20 guage wiring per say and you replaced it all with 18 gauge and altered it by law you cannot sell that monitor thats rightfully yours?

that's like saying well since your marquee backlight was made GE and now there is a DE in there you cannot sell the machine do to copyright?

if I were to buy car rims that were patented & copyrighted per say and came with cheap paint I paid $19.99 for each & when the paint flaked off they started to rust so I had them dipped in chrome and had a fella at the car wash say hey them look sharp I want a set I will give you $300.00 for the set.

would I be forced to say sorry man these babies are copyrighted can't do it or could I say deal take them?

now if i took the brand name off and put my company name on there and made a bunch of copy's to the T and selling them like I was the actual patent/copyright holder of that particular company's desighn then I would be in the wrong.   

but once again nobody is mass producing or selling replicas of 360 pcb's out of their shed or scratching the name off and putting there company name on them.

your using a example like it's would be wrong to sell a wells gardner monitor becuase it has a ultimarc video amp hooked to it in wich would alter the dislplay that runs through copyrighted material therefore you have no rights to sell that monitor anymore.

[shmokes]

Not one of those things is covered by copyright.  So no, I am not saying that.

[escher]

Not one of those things is covered by copyright.  So no, I am not saying that.

I think this thread is more than a lost cause.

[HaRuMaN]

Gah.  Who cares!  Bottom line, M$ or Sony is not gonna come after you for hacking controllers. 

[northerngames]

 If anything its making them richer from the ones that failed and had to buy a new one or so and so that went and bought a game just so they could use rapid fire or a real arcade rig on it.

 I also am done putting my 2 cents in for this topic.

[saleem]

only losers hack their controllers to give them advantage over others when they play online multiplayer.rightfully ms ban users who use the rapid fire mod,at one time they was all at it on cod4.

spoils everything when you play with and against cheaters..
 

[northerngames]

only losers hack their controllers to give them advantage over others when they play online multiplayer.rightfully ms ban users who use the rapid fire mod,at one time they was all at it on cod4.

spoils everything when you play with and against cheaters..
 

please post 1 link to prove someone got banned somewhere somehow someway for any controller mod of your choice.

[HaRuMaN]

lol...

[saleem]

its against tos,if they made it undetectable you can slither around like a worm cheating away like a loser cos you aint got it to hack it out like the real men.

so dont bother LOL'ng me or are you a big time loser?

typical internet wally who types lol and dont know what for.

so come on,tell me whats so funny that you type lol?cos i dont see anything funny.i suppose i post a pic of a turd and tell you thats what i think of you what you gonna do then?

twit.

its against tos to use modified controller while playing live matchs.

only idiots who need the advantage over others use it=unfair advantage=loooooser.now come on and try to tell me that those who use it aint loooosers.

no doubt you will try but,thats what losers do,try to condone why they cheat.

now go read xbox.com tos and then realise how much of losers rapid fire mod users are.

bozo

[versapak]

its against tos,if they made it undetectable you can slither around like a worm cheating away like a loser cos you aint got it to hack it out like the real men.

so dont bother LOL'ng me or are you a big time loser?

typical internet wally who types lol and dont know what for.

so come on,tell me whats so funny that you type lol?cos i dont see anything funny.i suppose i post a pic of a turd and tell you thats what i think of you what you gonna do then?

twit.

its against tos to use modified controller while playing live matchs.

only idiots who need the advantage over others use it=unfair advantage=loooooser.now come on and try to tell me that those who use it aint loooosers.

no doubt you will try but,thats what losers do,try to condone why they cheat.

now go read xbox.com tos and then realise how much of losers rapid fire mod users are.

bozo

I agree that cheaters online suck, but wow...

After trying to read that post, it is really funny you calling anyone else an idiot. 

[saleem]

well i cant see anywhere me calling anyone an idiot.

i see that i am trying to make the point out that cheaters are losers and theres no point in trying to condone cheating or posting silly pics then lol'ng about them when it comes across as being a post that says nothing just LOL.like one of the fools that gos down the pub like a robot with their mates to watch footy when they are not footy supports and to drink lots of beer when they cant hold it.

ie:
like follow the leader,someone posts pic,someone finds something funny that isnt!
 

[Bender]

Gah.  Who cares!  Bottom line, M$ or Sony is not gonna come after you for hacking controllers. 

yeah, every hacked controller is another one they sold. I think they should be psyced about hacked controllers I've bought about 4 controllers to hack (or have hacked, thanks HarumaN!)

It's money in the bank for M$ and $ony

[northerngames]

well i cant see anywhere me calling anyone an idiot.

i see that i am trying to make the point out that cheaters are losers and theres no point in trying to condone cheating or posting silly pics then lol'ng about them when it comes across as being a post that says nothing just LOL.like one of the fools that gos down the pub like a robot with their mates to watch footy when they are not footy supports and to drink lots of beer when they cant hold it.

ie:
like follow the leader,someone posts pic,someone finds something funny that isnt!
 

[saleem]

never mind once but,you post it twice.2x the idiot!

[DaveMMR]

We all hate cheaters but is it so important that you need to resurrect an old thread so you can call people losers and idiots?  Maybe I just don't understand because playing games online is such a minor part of life compared to the overall big picture.  If someone cheats, just don't play with them anymore.   

[northerngames]

 Not to attempt to chum up with anyone but a flat fact is their is littery hundreds of controller mods and kits selling on "just ebay alone" each and every day world wide.

There is already tens of thousands out their being used currenty today online and offline.

 Now that it is known how there done everyone might as well expect to see the same for the next coming consoles also if the manufacture's dont already put them in themselve's.

 some call the users of modded controllers cheaters and some modded controller users just want to have fun playing a video game and call them type whiners and it goes both ways as there is as many cheaters as their is whiners nowadays.

 The name calling in post is not going to halter their movement or change anyone's mind about the controllers some love them and some hate them but someone's personal opinion about others is not going to change their minds wether they like them or not.

 To some In the end.. its only a video game,online with people you dont even know,and most your competition is children and their playing just to have fun.

[SavannahLion]

OK