Which video card for 27" TV, Component input to get 640x432??

[blakemcginnis]

I've got a RCA 27" CRT Non-HDTV w/ component inputs, trying to get 640x432 and I'm about to pull my hair out.

I have tried both an 8600gt and 6600gt, with the nvidia mini-din to component dongle.  I have tried 5 or 6 archive versions of nvidia forceware drivers, powerstrip, rivatuner, etc. and can't get 640x432 on the TV.  I've also searched these forums till I fall asleep at the keyboard, and can't seem to find anything addressing these particular cards/situation.

The closest I got was using an older nvidia driver (158.xx or so), added the custom res in rivatuner and 640x432 showed up as an option when I right-clicked the nvidia tray icon and went to resolutions (along with a bunch of other super low resolutions) ...but... that was on a computer monitor, and the monitor wouldn't accept the resolutions, it just went black.  No problem, I thought, when I get home I'll hook the TV up (which is what I'm shooting for anyway) and surely it will work with 640x432 now...wrong.  The low resolutions disappeared once the TV was recognized by nvidia and set up.  From there I tried tons of different drivers, powerstrip, rivatuner, etc and couldn't get anything other than 640x480, in other words, no custom resolutions.  Rivatuner would act like it would accept the custom resolution and tell me to restart, but then the resolution would never show up as an option once I rebooted.  Nvidia's custom resolution option just fails ('test failed') and powerstrip acts similar to rivatuner.  Is this just a problem with these nvidia cards and the hdtv dongle?

I'm getting frustrated with NVIDIA and am eyeing an ATI x1600 on ebay (supposed to be comparable to a 6600gt) that has a component dongle - has anyone out there tried this particular card and got 640x432 on a TV via component?  I'd like to figure out if the video card is the problem, or if it's the TV, or if I'm just not doing something right - before I go and buy a new card.

Also, the only reason I'm looking at these 'newer' video cards is for when SFIV comes out on PC, I'd like to be able to play that as well.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[BASS!]

I see you have tried a bunch of stuff, but have you looked into soft15khz? Using on of sailors modelines you may be able to output the right resolution out of your vga slot. I had a 6600gt that I was using with it, and you can get 640x480 and 640x240, I don't see why 640x432 wouldn't work. You would of course need to wire a custom vga to component cord though. Someone with more knowledge about sync and component pinouts could probably tell you how to wire your cable. If no one does I guess I could spend some time on wikipedia or the like for a diagram.

You may also want to head over to http://www.omegadrivers.net/ for a custom driver for your video card. I have used their stuff in the past to do all sorts of funky stuff with diy projectors, and I am pretty sure that they may have something good for your 6600. I really don't recomend the 8600 for custom resolution stuff as the 8 series cards have some issues with low resolutions.

[MonMotha]

The "custom res" control panel in the nvidia control panel seems to just flatly deny anything that results in a horizontal scanrate below 30kHz, probably on the grounds that almost no PC monitor can display them, and they will usually (unless interlaced) have a resolution so low that Windows is unusable on them.  However, the hardware is fully capable of doing it.  What soft15khz is dump a bunch of entries into that control panel directly, bypassing the interface (it just stores everything in the giant blob that is the Windows registry anyway) and convinces Windows to use them.  That's why it has dependencies on driver versions.

You can do the same thing on Linux with a "modeline" in xorg.conf/XF86Config in a driver agnostic manner.  There's of course much less hand-holding on those, so it'll pretty much let you output anything the video hardware is capable of.

Once you've got the proper timed modes coming out of the card, you have to address the fact that they're in the wrong colorspace.  PC monitors all run RGB (as to arcade monitors), but US TV "component" inputs are YPbPr.  The signals are compatible: if you turn on sync on green and hook RGB up to a YPbPr input, you'll get an intelligible picture with some color, but everything will appear very green.  I've seen some software hacks to turn everything into YPbPr before outputting it, but I've not used them, and I've only seen them for X11 (Linux/UNIX).

The "HDTV output" found on some nvidia cards is much like the old TV outputs.  It tends to run everything through a giant pixel masher in order to turn anything into an "HDTV compatible" mode.  Sometimes you can convince them to pass display that is already "HDTV compatible" straight through without alteration (other than colorspace conversion), but often you can't.

Basically, this all amounts to you fighting software and hardware that's designed to make things "easy" for people who want to do something rather different than what you want to do.  That tends to make your job "hard".  My preferred solution at this point is to just grab an RGB to S-Video converter and output native RGB then dump it into a TV.  There are also RGB to YPbPr converters if you prefer to go that route, though they often cost more (despite having to do less).

As far as the ATI component dongles, some say they work great, but others say they don't work at all.  Seems to be an all-or-nothing scenario.

Oh, and remember that if your TV is an SDTV (not EDTV), you'll have to do 640x432 INTERLACED.  Progressive won't work.

[TOK]

Its been a long time since I did my component setup, but at the time I was researching, none of the Nvidia cards handled custom resolutions right.

I used an ATI Radeon 9550, which is probably 3 or 4 generations old now, and probably only available in AGP.
This card didn't even need Powerstrip or anything. Using MaLa's custom resolution setting, I put in 640x432 and it worked without a problem. The Windows boot screens are out of synch, and the desktop is overscanned but as soon as MaLa fires up, everything is perfect.

[blakemcginnis]

Thanks for all the advice so far, I've got some new stuff to try - omega drivers, soft15k, and maybe an ATI card.

I would just grab an old card, like the Radeon 9550, but the new motherboard i got for this project only has pci-e slots, plus I want to be able to play a few more vid-card heavy games (SFIV) on this cabinet.  I know the x1600 card I am looking at has a mini-din (7pin s-video) to component dongle, but I would hate to shell out another $30 or so and run into the same problem.  But from what I'm reading, a lot of problem seems to be the Nvidia drivers/control panel limitations - and although I've had no luck with rivatuner or powerstrip, maybe the omega drivers or soft15khz will work - and if not, I'll probably try the ATI card.

[Zebidee]

The ATI dongle only works with supporting ATI cards.  That includes the ATI 9250 and 9550, and a bunch of others.  There is a list on the ATI website somewhere.

What can also be confusing is that the dongle has dip-switches and they need to be set right, as well as everything else.

ATI 9250 or 9550 or 9600 work with the older Catalyst 6.5 drivers & soft15khz. These cards work well with Powerstrip too.ATI9550 chipset is available on PCI-e video cards. Try cruising around the Soft15khz thread a bit, and check out the list of compatible/tested cards (below). Even if you don't use Soft15khz, it is a good guide to which cards are going to be better for 15khz:

http://community.arcadeinfo.de/showthread.php?t=7925

[blakemcginnis]

Thanks for the link, I saw the 6600gt (agp) listed as working, so does that mean that, using the nvidia component dongle, I should be able to get 640x432 with soft15khz?  If so, I will try it tonight. 

I'm not familiar with soft15khz, I've never used it, and to be honest, I'm not really sure what it does - how does the lower refresh rate (15hz) make the games (mame, nulldc, nes, etc) look better?  I realize that 15hz is the refresh rate that the arcades originally ran on, and so it's more accurate, but what improvements would I notice visibly on my tv?

thanks for all the suggestions thus far.

[Zebidee]

Nvidia component dongle?

You should read the pinned thread on Soft15khz.

... how does the lower refresh rate (15hz) make the games (mame, nulldc, nes, etc) look better?  I realize that 15hz is the refresh rate that the arcades originally ran on, and so it's more accurate, but what improvements would I notice visibly on my tv?

Search these forums for detailed answers (just browse the posts here), as these questions come up all the time. It is more than just refresh rate - These games were designed for certain 15khz resolutions on CRT screens, and they simply look better at their original resolutions.

[blakemcginnis]

OK, I will try to read the thread on soft15k when I get time.

Nvidia component dongle =



Update: Installed omega drivers, quickres, and soft15k.  Omega drivers made the desktop and text look fantastic, much better than before - made the tv look like a computer monitor.  Unfortunately, I've still not been able to create the 640x432 resolution with the control panel in omega drivers, powerstrip, rivatuner, soft15k, etc.  although I still don't know enough about soft15k to even know what it did.

[TOK]

Are you using a front end, or just trying to get your desktop to 640x432?
As a test, I'd suggest trying MaLa and putting that resolution in the custom resolution section. This works for me, even though I don't have that option from the Windows display options. That way you'll at least know if your card will do it.

Just as an example, here are 2 pics from when I was doing my vert cab. They're old and crappy, but one shows the desktop at 640x480 and subsequent overscan cutoff, one shows MaLa at 640x432. I did this buy letting MaLa handle the resolution, not Soft 15k or anything.

Some people have also done tweaks from the service menu of their televisions (remember your default settings if you go this route, you can really screw your TV up).

[blakemcginnis]

I may download MALA and give it a shot just to see.  I'm using Hyperspin and really like it - but I'm pretty sure it's resolutions are limited by the ones listed by windows/nvida.
 
I did notice that soft15khz dumped a bunch of custom resolutions in nvidia's control panel - but when I tried to edit one to get 640x432 interlaced - no dice, "test failed".  I'm thinking it's just an nvidia+component problem - I may go ahead and try to get an ATI card.

640x480 looks great, text is readable, images are beautiful - it's just overscanned badly.

[BASS!]

If you go to the tv section for your omega drivers there is an overscan / tv position menu. I used the heck out of this previously. What is the exact model of your tv though then I could get you started with being able to tune your overscan on your tv.

[blakemcginnis]

Yeah, I tried to adjust with those TV size/positioning options.  The positioning will move the screen around but the sizing doesn't change anything - I click minus and the screen flashes but the screen size remains the same.

Here is the model of the TV:

RCA
F27443

Thanks

[Ummon]

If you're also wanting capacity for higher-end games, particularly PC-type, I suggest not using a TV. Then it'll be plug and play.

[blakemcginnis]

I appreciate the suggestion, but it's a done deal - the cabinet is already built around the 27" TV and it looks very good (minus the overscan).  I understand computers weren't meant to natively interface with TVs, so it's more difficult than just using a monitor, and I know a crt TV is not optimal for newer PC games like Street Fighter IV and Guitar Hero, but those games are really an afterthought - the cabinet is primarily for arcade games and 80s-90s console games.

Again, thanks for the suggestions so far.

[blakemcginnis]

I figured out how to get in to the service menu of my tv and was able to adjust the vertical size and shrink it down a bit, at 640x480 it's still overscanned at, but not quite as bad...however...I wasn't able to find the adjustment for the horizontal size in the service menu, the only thing I was able to find was horizontal position.  I figured H. Size would be right next to H. position, like the vertical size adjustment, but it was not.  At this point, I'm not sure what to do, but I'm leaning towards trying an ATI x1600 or x1650 to see if I can do a custom resolution over component with them...

[Ummon]

With the ati catalyst suite, or nvidia equivalent, there is the option to adjust the geometry in software, even for TV output.

[blakemcginnis]

Yeah, I tried the TV adjustments in Nvidia's control panel.  The positioning works, but the size adjustment does not respond.

[Ummon]

Mm-mmm. Worked on mine so I guess you're hosed....at least with that card, perhaps.

[blakemcginnis]

Well, here's the update:

Got the ATI x1650 card in, with mini-din to component dongle.  I first tried the omega drivers and then the catalyst drivers, both seemed to be about the same, with a few more features in the catalyst suite.  I can get any resolution I want, 640x432 or lower, and I can adjust overscan/underscan no problem....but now there's a new problem.  I believe you might call it Flicker, Jitter, Shimmer, etc.  Whatever it is, it is unbelieveably annoying and hard on the eyes.  It's like everything is constantly vibrating very slightly, defocusing things - especially text or anything high contrast against a white background.  I switched over to S-video and it went away.  I noticed when I switched to S-video, there was a few new settings in catalyst - one was 'Flicker adjustment' - it was set to the maximum (thats what was recommended).  I switched it to the minimum and BAM - that's what it looked like with the component connection - so apparently ATI calls the problem I'm having - "flicker". 

I love the look of the component over s-video - it's more vibrant and slightly more detail - but I can't use it like this.  Does anyone know of any suggestions to get rid of this flicker / shimmer / jitter / whatever ?  It would be nice if there was a flicker setting in Catalyst for component like there was for s-video, but alas, there is not. 

Again, I appreciate any suggestions.

[Ummon]

The method for component has generally been VGA to component, I think as mentioned above. That seems the ticket. Get the dongle here cheap (well, not as cheap as it used to be - a couple dollars more now, I think) :

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10419&cs_id=1041901&p_id=2398&seq=1&format=2

[blakemcginnis]

Sounds like a good idea, but this worries me:

"Note: This adapter only work with the following ATI Video Cards.
Compatible video cards include: ATI ALL-IN-WONDER RADEON 8500, 8500DV, RADEON
9500, 9550, 9600, 9700 & 9800 series of video cards."

I have a x1650 card - does anyone know if these dvi to component/vga to component adapters will work with this card?

[BASS!]

I searched through a couple distributors and found one that looks identical with this compatibility list.

Now you can view your computer video output on a High Definition Television (HDTV), projector or other video displays with component video inputs. Now you can enjoy your movies, games or other video presentations on a big screen. Simply connect the adapter to a PC video port to convert DVI female to red, green and blue component RCA females.

Works with ATI's ALL-IN-WONDER RADEON 8500, 8500DV, RADEON 9500, 9550, 9600, 9700, 9800, X1300, X1600, X1650 & X1950 series of video cards.

If you don't have a compatible ATI video adapter inside your computer, we offer it here: PC to HDTV Video Adapter (AGP Type Slot) or PC to HDTV Video Adapter (PCI-Express Type Slot) (both sold separately).

[blakemcginnis]

cool, thanks for the searching!  So do you think this dvi-to-component adapter will get rid of the flicker?  I read through a bunch of posts the other day on 'flicker' and a lot of people were saying it was from the interlaced signal - so will using this adapter change anything?

[BASS!]

No, screen flicker has to do with the resolution. You may be able to turn on a flicker filter in your driver, but I have no idea.

[blakemcginnis]

lol, I feel like I'm going in circles here.

And, nope, there's no flicker adjustment in the catalyst control center for component - only when hooked up via s-video.

Let me try this again.

Anyone out there have first-hand experience of hooking up a crt tv via component using an x1650 (or similiar recent ati card) that were able to get rid of screen flicker?

I'm starting to think this isn't possible.  I'm using S-video for now.

I'll give this a few more days and unless there's some new eye-opening revelations - I'll give future readers of this thread a conclusive answer on how to use component connections between a PC and a non-hd TV  -  Don't.

[Ummon]

Ahem. You're not understanding what he said. Look up (especially through the monitor wiki) interlace and progressive video.

[blakemcginnis]

I understand interlace and progressive.  That's why I said I had read that it was a problem with interlaced video and asked if the adapter (that you suggested) would fix anything - and uprightbass360 said "no".

So...I'm still lost as to what, if anything, can be done about the flicker problem with component.

[Ummon]

I suggest re-reading TOK's post above.

[blakemcginnis]

I re-read his posts, and while they were very helpful in my decision to get an ATI card (which fixed the custom resolution and overscan problem) - they don't address the flickering problem I am currently seeking a solution to...unless I'm missing something.

Perhaps I should start a new thread, since the original object has been accomplished - only to be replaced by another obstacle

So, in summation, for anyone reading this thread in the future - Nvidia 6600gt & 8600gt (and possible others) = bad for custom low resolutions & overscan adjustment.  ATI allows for custom low resolutions and overscan adjustment via component.  But bear in mind you may have flickering issues with component, which for me blew the whole deal - I'm using S-Video right now, and not sure there is a workable solution for component.

[BASS!]

Because I am too lazy to paraphrase here is what someone posted on wikipedia. Couldn't have said it better myself.

The 640×400i resolution (720x480i with borders disabled) was first introduced by home computers such as the Commodore Amiga and (later) Atari Falcon. These computers used interlace to boost the maximum vertical resolution. These modes were only suited to graphics or gaming, as the flickering interlace made reading text in word processor, database, or spreadsheet software difficult. (Modern game consoles solve this problem by pre-filtering the 480i video to a lower resolution. For example Final Fantasy XII suffers from flicker when the filter is turned off, but stabilizes once filtering is restored. The computers of the 1980s lacked sufficient power to run similar filtering software.)

I've run many displays at this resolution, and had great results, but they do vary. Some displays, even model to model handle interlaced video differently. I ran a mitsubishi multisync that ran great at 640x240, but when you pump it up to x480 to view your desktop, you do have to bear with some flicker. I have been to the arcade before and noticed it on ferrari f355 simulator, but heck that is how it is.

It has been said before, the reason that your having issues, is you are trying to do something that the manufacturer did not design their product for.

Now all that aside, have you tried any other resolutions or games, other than staring at the windows desktop? If you have what have you run. Will your monitor take any modes other than 640x480? Also, have you tried adjusting the color/ brightness / sharpness to detune your monitor a tiny bit? You may be able to un focus the display ever so slightly to make the refresh a little bit less blaring?

One other thing you may want to try is the use of a line conditioner, as some of the flicker may be present because of dirty power.

[M3d10n]

I re-read his posts, and while they were very helpful in my decision to get an ATI card (which fixed the custom resolution and overscan problem) - they don't address the flickering problem I am currently seeking a solution to...unless I'm missing something.

Perhaps I should start a new thread, since the original object has been accomplished - only to be replaced by another obstacle

So, in summation, for anyone reading this thread in the future - Nvidia 6600gt & 8600gt (and possible others) = bad for custom low resolutions & overscan adjustment.  ATI allows for custom low resolutions and overscan adjustment via component.  But bear in mind you may have flickering issues with component, which for me blew the whole deal - I'm using S-Video right now, and not sure there is a workable solution for component.

I'm pretty much in the same situation: ATI card, CRT TV, component inputs, no progressive scan. But I found a workaround for the flickering issue. You'll need to to these steps on the first time:

- Open the Catalyst Control Center;
- Make sure you enable "Force TV detect" and "Force Component Video detection" under "Display Options" (this will make sure TV-out and Component-out is always enabled, regardless of connection status);
- Go to "Displays Manager";
- Look in the "Desktop and Display Setup" area;
- If not already, connect your PC to your TV using component and enable the component-out;
- You should see a CRT-like TV icon on the "Attached displays currently disabled" area. This is the Composite/S-video out.
- Drag and drop the CRT TV icon to the LCD TV icon on the "Clone"/"Desktop 2" area. A small menu should open, click on "Swap devices";
- The image in your TV will look blue-ish or something. This is because the ATI card is sending composite video through one of the 3 component cables;
- You should now see "TV Properties" listed on the left pane. Expand it;
- Click on "Image Quality";
- Set the "Flicker Removal" slider to maximum, "Composite sharpness" to "maximum" and "S-Video sharpness" to "more";
- Go back to "Displays Manager";
- Drag and drop the LCD TV icon from the "Attached displays currently disabled" area over the CRT TV icon in "Clone"/"Desktop2". Click on "Swap devices";

Done! You'll have a color component image on your TV, but the flickering will be gone! The only problem is that the flickering will be back if you restart your system. But you can easily re-enable the flicker removal by doing this:

- Go to "Displays Manager" on the Catalyst Control Center;
- Drag the CRT TV icon over the LCD TV icon, click on "swap devices";
- When the "Do you want to keep these settings" dialog opens, select "No". This will revert back to component-out, but will keep the flicker removal enabled.

BTW, I'm using Catalyst 9.3, and just found this a few days ago, not sure if it works on other versions. I also just ordered a DVI-to-component cable since I figure it will allow me to use soft-15KHz and use true 240p resolutions and scan rates via component (which will look the same as RGB-out). If it works, it'll be much easier (and cheaper) than tracking down a RGB monitor.

[blakemcginnis]

Awesome, I'll try to try this out today or tomorrow.  I wonder if there's a way to write a little script to automate the process when you reboot?

I'll let you know how it turns out - and keep me updated on your dvi-to-component project.

[M3d10n]

Since it requires clicks you could try recording a mouse macro if you're building a cab. But the card *does* have the ability of enabling flicker removal for component-out, it's just that it isn't exposed in the interface and that it disables it during boot.

Too bad ATI Tray Tools isn't updated anymore (and has zero options for component-out). Maybe there something hidden in the registry that can be done to enable it.

[Ummon]

Blake, TOK did what others have done and went VGA to component, in which case there should be no flicker, as the TV shouldn't be doing any scaling. You're going component to component, right?

[M3d10n]

Ummon: good to hear that! The cable was fairly easy to find online and pretty cheap too, so I was afraid it wasn't going to work since it sounded so easy.

[blakemcginnis]

Maybe I will try one of those vga-to-component adapters.  I've got 2 of them that I've tried- one dell dvi-to-component and a vga-to-component that came with a projector, but they don't work - one shows nothing and the other I think makes the screen all blue.  So I'm thinking maybe I'll try the ATI-specific one that was mentioned above.

Ummon:  Should I get the DVI-to-component adapter you linked earlier in this thread, or do I need a VGA-to-component?

[Zebidee]

Ummon:  Should I get the DVI-to-component adapter you linked earlier in this thread, or do I need a VGA-to-component?

The DVI-component dongle works on the analogue RGB signals present on the DVI head anyway. It is worth noting that not all DVI video heads provide the analogue RGB signals. I think that the card must be "DVI-I". Check to make sure that your ATI card is compatible.

Also, note that with the ATI DVI-component dongle you must set the dip-switches properly as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface

[Zebidee]

I don't know about your Dell DVI-component adaptor, but here is a proper DVI-component adaptor (OEM) for compatible ATI cards (which are listed in the ad). It includes the dip-switches I mentioned. Only $6.20!! Too easy.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10419&cs_id=1041901&p_id=2398&seq=1&format=2

[Ummon]

As Zeb said. He knows more than I do, and has experienced more in this area than I have.

[M3d10n]

OK, I just got the DVI-component cable. My card detects it, but I can't get a stable image on the TV no matter what. I tried soft15KHz, and it added resolutions, but there's no resolution I set in either Windows nor MAME that doesn't renders in bright pink+green and with severe sync issues.

Anyone knows something about this? I'm suspecting it's got something to do with sync-on-green, or the lack thereof.

[M3d10n]

I also noticed something strange, however. I had to disable my TV's "blue screen" feature to see the out-of-sync images, and after reverting back to the video card's built-in component out, the PC POST screen (which never showed up on the TV) displays out of sync, much like the DVI-component cable does. It only stabilizes when I reach Window's login screen. I can also force the TV out of sync if I open a command prompt window and ALT+ENTER it into fullscreen.

So, there seems to be *something* the card does to produce a stable 480i image over component, which it isn't doing over DVI and on non-Windows managed video modes. If only AMD added a "240p" option on their component video options...

[Ummon]

That would be outside the standard.

[M3d10n]

When I get some time I'll try testing Linux and see if I can get more control over the output signal... outside the standard, huh? How does the Wii do it? Doesn't the 16-bit and 8-bit Virtual Console games (except TG-16) output at 240p, even via component?

Annoying thing is that the resolution seems correct: at one time I got an almost stable image (on a still image) on the screen, and there I could see there was no interlaced flickering and glorious natural scanlines. Sniff...

[Zebidee]

Seems like you are nearly there with the component thing. Your current wierd-sync screen is very close. It has been like over two years since I did it, so my memory of the details is vague. You probably need to click a setting in the ATI control panel or something like that. I suggest that you search the forums, this issue must have been covered before.

[M3d10n]

Had a session with Powerstrip... no results yet. It's hard: I started with a 640x240 resolution, using the TV as extended monitor, and after some messing with front porch, back porch and sync widths I got a image that wasn't scrolling wildly, but the screen was flickery and way too purple.

Sadly, slightly changing the values sent it all to hell again and I couldn't get it back no matter what. The video card even started glitching.

I'll give the forums some new searches, but it's hard because what I'm doing is VGA-to-Component, and not the VGA-to-RGB everyone seems to be doing.

[blakemcginnis]

Any more luck with your component/vga adapter? 

[M3d10n]

Haven't done any more tests yet, need to get an extensor first since the only cable I found is too short and having to move the TV around makes things more involved than it should be.

I am starting to suspect the DVI-Component isn't outputting component, but actually RGB, thus explaining why every resolution I try is out of sync and tinted purple...

[BASS!]

Not to digress but isn't component just rgb with the h / v syncs tied to the green signal? It may just be a custom wiring issue that you could overcome.

[MonMotha]

"Component" video is YPbPr w/ composite sync on luma.  Electrically, it's the same as RGB w/ sync on green, but the colorspace is different.  You have to do a little math to convert RGB to YPbPr or vice versa, and that's independent of what you do with the sync signals.  If you attempt to display RGB on a YPbPr input, it'll look very, very green, but you'll otherwise be able to tell everything's working as there will be a stable image, and there will even be some color, but it certainly won't look right unless you do the colorspace conversion.

[BASS!]

ahhh, k. Yeah the practical application part is the one that confuses me a tad.

[M3d10n]

Someone in another forum just said these VGA-component cables don't output component, but actually  RGB with sync on green. Since both set of cables have a red, a green and a blue lead lots of people mistake the two of them. I sorta suspected so, because it doesn't look like the cable has room in it for a color conversion circuit.

I'm actually running Ubuntu now, and while the TV image is still out of sync, it does look different than the ones I got in Windows. I set the Ubunto desktop to 320x240 and I got an inverted, tiled and scrolling image, with lots of purple and green. I don't know yet how to tweak the video mode further, I just used the Catalyst control panel.

Seems I'll have to live with interlaced output, or find (or build) a true VGA-to-component converter.

[MonMotha]

If you just say "320x240" to Ubuntu, you'll get 320x240 doublescanned.  That is, each line will be scanned twice.  Either that or you'll get it at 120Hz refresh.  Either way, the horizontal sync is 30kHz (VGA compatible), so a TV won't like it.  They do this because that's what you have to do for a PC.

Chances are, you won't be able to get X to do what you want without manually hacking the config file.  This is just not something 99.9% of users have any need for.  Fortunately, xorg.conf is pretty straightforward.  Tell it that your monitor has a horizontal scanrate range of 14.5-16kHz, and hopefully it'll remove the doublescan option from 320x240 for you.  Heck, it may automatically decide to interlace 640x480 for you.  If it doesn't, you'll have to use a modeline.  Fortunately, others have compiled a ready-made list of modelines for this.

I recommend this modeline:
ModeLine "ATSC-480-59.94i" 11.958 640 664 736 760 480 484 492 525 Interlace

That gives you 640x480 at timings that should display properly on any NTSC television (though there will be some overscan).

For an SDTV, you *WILL* have to deal with interlaced output at 640x480.  That's all the TV can do.  No way around it.  You'd need an "EDTV" to handle 640x480 progressive.

I have long suspected that the reason these DVI/VGA-to-component dongles only work on certain hardware is that there is driver trickery involved.  I'm guessing that the card is asked to convert colorspaces internally (something the hardware is very good at doing) then output YPbPr for you.  The dongle just changes the connectors around.  Your experiences seem to confirm this, at least for the dongle you're using.

I have had excellent luck using various methods of getting the PC to output suitably timed video (custom modelines in Linux, driver tricks/soft15k-like utilities in windows, etc.) and hooking the output up to a RGB-to-SVideo adapter I built.  You can buy such adapters pretty cheap from places like arcademvs.com.  Quality isn't quite as good as component, but unless you were to place the two side-by-side, you'd never be able to tell (and even then you'd probably have difficulty).

[M3d10n]

I'll try the custom resolution trick later, but since the colors are sure to be messed up it's kind of a bummer. I can get a fine 480i using the card's built-in component-out, but I was hoping to find a way to get true arcade resolutions out of it.

Maybe if I buy one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2M-SCART-LEAD-TO-15-PIN-HD-VGA-SVGA-CABLE-SENT-NOW_W0QQitemZ130296830426QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item130296830426&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177

...and hook it up to one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=220401803516&Category=14965#ebayphotohosting

It looks like it could work, however, that's quite a bit more money to put into an experiment (I'm neither in the USA nor in the UK, so there's shipping and maybe taxes.)

I've seen some VGA-to-svideo converters for sale on local online stores... but I'm afraid to try them because I'm not sure they'd handle 240p resolutions in the way I expect. If they just scale up and interlace it would be wasted money =(

This is the one:
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-93508790-adaptador-vga-av-s-video-para-jogos-e-apresentacoes-na-tv-_JM
It's USB powered, and since they say it supports up to 1024x768 with adjustable overscan/underscan I assume it has a scaler built-in.

[MonMotha]

I'll try the custom resolution trick later, but since the colors are sure to be messed up it's kind of a bummer. I can get a fine 480i using the card's built-in component-out, but I was hoping to find a way to get true arcade resolutions out of it.

Maybe if I buy one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2M-SCART-LEAD-TO-15-PIN-HD-VGA-SVGA-CABLE-SENT-NOW_W0QQitemZ130296830426QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item130296830426&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177

...and hook it up to one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=220401803516&Category=14965#ebayphotohosting

It looks like it could work, however, that's quite a bit more money to put into an experiment (I'm neither in the USA nor in the UK, so there's shipping and maybe taxes.)

I've seen some VGA-to-svideo converters for sale on local online stores... but I'm afraid to try them because I'm not sure they'd handle 240p resolutions in the way I expect. If they just scale up and interlace it would be wasted money =(

This is the one:
http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-93508790-adaptador-vga-av-s-video-para-jogos-e-apresentacoes-na-tv-_JM
It's USB powered, and since they say it supports up to 1024x768 with adjustable overscan/underscan I assume it has a scaler built-in.

Does your TV have S-Video (Y/C) input?  If so,  just buy one of the cheap arcademvs.com RGB to S-Video adapters and run your choice of a custom modeline (Linux) or Soft15k/friends (Windows).  That gets you native video on a TV for $30-50 (depending on shipping).  You'll have to live with overscan unless your TV supports geometry adjustments (check service menus), though.  No way to have both native timed video and no overscan on a TV without monitor adjustments.  If you want to crush it down, that involves scaling it which removes the "native-ness".

If you really must have component video (it doesn't look much different from S-Video at 480i or 240p), then that SCART magic box you posted appears to be something that'll work.  It appears to just be a colorspace converter (often known as a "transcoder" for some reason I can't fathom) which is exactly what you need.  You'll still have to get your PC to output TV timed video, of course, but there are lots of ways to do that as mentioned above.  Again, you'll have to live with the overscan unless you can adjust your TV.

There is a way to somewhat preserve native timings while crushing in the overscan, but it involves adding lines (blank) and increasing blank area on lines to effectively "box in" the active image.  This will increase the horizontal scanrate some, but if the monitor can still safely display it, the video should look basically identical.  MAME and friends may support this with some hackery.  There's a limit, though, since your TV has to be able to handle the higher horizontal scanrate.  Many arcade games were already pushing it up into th 16kHz range, so that may not be an option.

The "VGA to S-Video" converters you see at retail (commonly called "scan converters" back in the late 90s) attempt to take anything somewhat PC-ish (640x480 or sometimes even up to 1024x768) and mash it into a TV compatible mode.  Nothing native about it.  Most will not even accept natively timed video at all, but you might get lucky and find one that does.  I'm guessing that's all your last link is.

[M3d10n]

My card has s-video out, but I never tested it. I'll get a cable today to check how it looks. If the image is good enough I'll go with the RGB-Svideo converter. I'll need to find something to hook from VGA to RGB, but I'm sure the forum is full of links to things like that, no?

Thanks a lot for the help.

[MonMotha]

My card has s-video out, but I never tested it. I'll get a cable today to check how it looks. If the image is good enough I'll go with the RGB-Svideo converter. I'll need to find something to hook from VGA to RGB, but I'm sure the forum is full of links to things like that, no?

Thanks a lot for the help.

There's usually a marked difference between the onboard S-Video outputs and an outboard "RGB to S-Video" converter.  The onboard ones are usually giant pixel mashers that do everything in their power to take whatever you feed them and display it on a television, including handling overscan.  This is handy, but the result is about as far from a "native" display as you can get.  Most onboard S-Video outputs I've dealt with either won't accept TV compatible video at all (they just shut down) or will still run it through a bunch of scalers and such negating any "benefits".

The type of outboard converter I'm talking about does nothing but take your suitably timed video in RGB and modulates it (NTSC or PAL, your choice) to TV standards.  No scaling or other rate conversions.  The result is natively timed video, same as you were outputting over the VGA port, but displayed on a TV via S-Video.  Neat.

Give it a shot, though.  Maybe you'll get lucky or the output will be "good enough" for you.

FYI, VGA *is* RGB.  With a little connector work and making sure your resolution/timings are right, you can dump it straight into an arcade monitor.  Only issue is that PC signals are 0.7Vpp while most arcade monitors expect higher signal levels.  Nothing a video amp can't fix.  There's unfortunately no real standard connector for "RGB" video, though that HD15 used by PCs is close (and the pinout and connector predate its use by PCs).

[M3d10n]

Ah, I know too well about what video cards do to their s-video/composite outputs, since I've used composite out years ago. I mean checking the colors, sharpness and bleeding of the s-video connection. If they don't differ too much from component, I'll go for it.

BTW, I noticed that RGB-svideo adapter uses composite sync RGB, but doesn't VGA uses separate H and V syncs? Do I need an adapter to convert H/V to composite sync?

[MonMotha]

Ah, I know too well about what video cards do to their s-video/composite outputs, since I've used composite out years ago. I mean checking the colors, sharpness and bleeding of the s-video connection. If they don't differ too much from component, I'll go for it.

BTW, I noticed that RGB-svideo adapter uses composite sync RGB, but doesn't VGA uses separate H and V syncs? Do I need an adapter to convert H/V to composite sync?

VGA does conventionally use separate sync, but almost all modern PC cards can output composite sync or sync-on-green.  Just need to tell the driver to do so.  The convention is to place composite sync on the horizontal sync output, but some cards put it on both horizontal and vertical.

If your card can't do composite sync on its own, negative composite sync is just +vsync XOR -hsync.  Adjust everything to get polarities right as desired - all can be done on a single 74xx86, and there are nifty ways of making it auto-sense the polarities.  In some cases, you can get by with the classic "twist the wires together", but I'm not a fan.

Note that SCART doesn't use a dedicated sync signal at all: it uses the composite video line to extract sync info.  This is due to the fact that the RGB in SCART was originally designed for a real-time overlay, not actual video transfer.  I'm under the impression that many SCART-equipped sets will accept TTL level sync on their CVBS input, but I don't own any European televisions and don't have enough experience with them to determine if that is indeed the case.

[M3d10n]

VGA does conventionally use separate sync, but almost all modern PC cards can output composite sync or sync-on-green.  Just need to tell the driver to do so.  The convention is to place composite sync on the horizontal sync output, but some cards put it on both horizontal and vertical.

Ah, so that's what the "composite sync" checkbox in PowerStrip is for! I'm pretty sure the card can do it (Radeon HD 4850), so all I need to do is murder a VGA cable and wire it to the converter. Nice.

[blakemcginnis]

Any new developments?

[M3d10n]

Not yet, had some problems and couldn't do any more tests since I won't be home until next week. I think I'll order that RGB-to-svideo converter anyway, to speed things up.

--EDIT--
I just ordered one. Will update when it arrives.

[M3d10n]

Still waiting for the adapter, but I got myself an s-video cable to check how things look with it (I really never used s-video before: I went straight from composite to component). Well, as expected: it's a bit less sharp then component and there is some color bleeding (mostly yellows and blues), but it's noticeably sharper, doesn't do dot-crawling and doesn't create red shadows from nowhere like composite. The interlacing flicker is also less noticeable than component (even with the component anti-flicker trick enabled), probably due to the reduced sharpness.

While component would've been perfect, I think I can settle for this, as long as I can get my hardware scanlines using the RGB-svideo dongle. Maybe the colors will improve when using lower resolutions and a shorter/better cable (had to order a custom 3 meters one since the TV is too far for the stock cables I found during my errands).

But seriously, it would be awesome if someone built and sold no-frills VGA-to-component converters online. Only Europeans got the luxury of having RGB on their TVs due to a fluke of the past, but component is a suitable alternative and there's no proper hardware for that.

Oh wait, found some:
http://www.smarthome.com/777060/VGA-to-Component-Video-Converter/p.aspx
http://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/vga-to-component/40h1-50200.htm

A tad too pricey for my tastes, unfortunately. They either have scalers or have huge profit margins, because the circuit looks farily simple: http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_102648/article.html

[M3d10n]

Finally got it. I'm doing some tests with it before ordering a custom VGA cable to plug into it. Haven't got a stable picture yet... it's hard trying to change resolutions when the screen is all messed up.

The adapter has two RGB inputs: one with separate V/H sync lines and one with a single sync line. Which one should I use? I believe its only a matter of setting up the resolution properly right now.

-- EDIT --
HOLY CRAP! IT WORKS! After half an our carefully attaching the cable lines into a DVI-VGA adapter and hot-swapping between my monitor and the TV, it worked. Used soft-15KHz and set MAME resolution to auto, directdraw w/o hardware stretch. Looks gorgeous, ZERO flickering. Not 100% perfect due to s-video limitations and I need to tinker with the RGB gain screws since it's a bit yellowish, but hot damn! The stable, non-flickering progressive image actually makes playing close to the TV much more comfortable to the eyes. And these sexy hardware scanlines...

Will go tomorrow get a proper cable to hook the VGA to the RGB plug done and buy a VGA switch box. Any recommendation for a front-end that can actually render on the TV? I tried Mala, but it rotates my monitor upside down every time it switches resolution.

I cannot thank you enough, MonMotha, the RGB-svideo converter was an amazing suggestion. I actually strolled in an arcade a few days ago and really their image output is very similar, if not worse if some cases. I've been told many operators around here actually use s-video so they can use TV tubes due to the RGB monitors being prone to defects.

[M3d10n]

Ah, Soft-15KHz is ---smurfing--- amazing! The first time I tested it my windows desktop was all garbled, but I rebooted and now the desktop is visible. I can even use 800x600 somehow, but the overscan is BRUTAL. The taskbar is completely invisible, as well as window menus. But inside games it's perfect, so no complaints there.

Also, after adjusting the converter RGB gain screws the image is very good. It indeed looks pretty close to component. I'm posting this while using the TV at 800x600 and I can actually read what I'm typing.

[Ummon]

Good news. Maybe you should write some of that up in the monitor wiki.  Oh, and take some pictures.

[M3d10n]

I don't have a proper camera to take good TV pictures, yet. I'll get going on the wiki thing, it'll save people the same trouble in the future... but where exactly in the wiki would I add the DVI-component information?

The overscan is getting onto me, though. CPS2 and MVS games look fine (very minor vertical overscan, adjusting the vertical position a little helps), but anything using x240 or x480 resolution have massive vertical overscan. The Catalyst Control Center doesn't show the monitor adjustment options when connected to the converter for some reason, and getting into my TV service menu involves opening it, and I'm not too keen in voiding my warranty yet. I'll check if Powerstrip can help, I remember it having controls for that. It will be a challenge to open it without seeing the task bar.

I still need a VGA switch box to allow me to switch to the TV without going behind the desk. Couldn't find one in the stores I visited.

[Ummon]

I don't have a proper camera to take good TV pictures, yet. I'll get going on the wiki thing, it'll save people the same trouble in the future... but where exactly in the wiki would I add the DVI-component information?

Um, you'll have to look in its structure. It does at least mention TVs. Wing it.

The overscan is getting onto me, though. CPS2 and MVS games look fine (very minor vertical overscan, adjusting the vertical position a little helps), but anything using x240 or x480 resolution have massive vertical overscan. The Catalyst Control Center doesn't show the monitor adjustment options when connected to the converter for some reason, and getting into my TV service menu involves opening it, and I'm not too keen in voiding my warranty yet. I'll check if Powerstrip can help, I remember it having controls for that. It will be a challenge to open it without seeing the task bar.

Yeah, try PS.

[SailorSat]

Guess someone should build a nice RGB to Component Converter Board.
Can't be TOO complicated.

[Ummon]

I thought some people already have......or are those only the other way round?