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Author Topic: Household Electricity Consumption  (Read 8771 times)

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Kevin Mullins

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Household Electricity Consumption
« on: February 05, 2009, 04:12:23 am »
Have any of you ever done an analysis on individual appliance electricity consumption in your homes and whatnot?

My bill fluctuates so drastically it's not funny anymore, well, ...... never was.
But over the last three years I have seen dramatic increases in usage in relationship to previous.
So we figure we're gonna sit down and try to figure up what each large appliance and even some smaller stuff (like PC's) are using per hour.
We have a digital electric meter, so the big stuff is easy to figure out like the heater, AC, water well, water heater, dryer, etc.
But I may also pick up one of those gizmos you can plug in the wall and then plug something into to check what it draws.

I know some of the increases is also due to bad habits being developed by members of the household. (teenagers)
Overloading the washer, twice the drying time, leaving tv's and stereos on when they leave, doing extra laundry because they want to wear something specific the next day, that sort of thing.
 
I also know a lot of my larger appliances are getting quite old now, so this could be scary...........
I know my last bill was. :laugh2:
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richms

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2009, 05:06:37 am »
The killer I found was a fridge - as it lost its gas it was just running almost all the time - you never notice it because its still cold enough, until it finally dies and only gets cold - all while running constantly.

Apparently some of the new ones will alert you if they have excessive run times, but I only have ever had old ones.


Blanka

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2009, 08:53:33 am »
Found this

Kevin Mullins

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2009, 12:07:34 pm »
The killer I found was a fridge -

Yes, that is one thing I definitely want to check as mine is getting old too.
"Works" fine, but it's been around awhile now.

Found this

I did some quick browsing around for stuff like that, but it seemed hard to find some "averages" of major appliances that actually agreed with eachother. (or even remotely close to eachother)

For instance.... What is that "average" draw of a household electric furnace?
I know this can vary greatly due to age, brands, etc. But you would think there would be some middle ground statistics available for an average.
Like one site I came across said something like between 1-5 kwh........
Uh, I just checked mine and it was pulling 14.4 kwh !!
And there seemed to be another 6 kwh being pulled at that time by who knows what.
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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2009, 12:25:56 pm »
Your local electric/power company may have a program where they come out, for free, and review your home for various items to help you find problems.  They can test your windows/doors for leaks that would indicate your heat or a/c would be running too much and test your vents to see if enough pressure is coming out (for forced air that is) which can indicate problems with your air handler or problems with duct work.

May be worth a shot to find out about.  Or, shoot the teenagers!   ;D

Kevin Mullins

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2009, 04:57:07 pm »
We had actually contacted the Electric Company a few times regarding such things, but essentially all we get is "sorry, can't help ya .... here's your bill".
Because we were both used to companies that had programs that would help pinpoint major changes in usage, etc. (energy conservation and all that)

Our last bill showed a usage of 5840 Kilowatt Hours -  that's a $353.64 bill.  :P
And this keeps changing drastically each year it seems from month to month if you were to look back at the history. (and of course it's a rediculous amount of usage as is)
So we're wanting to take a good look at appliances and such to start with.

Well, while the teenagers were all out of the house and it was just the two of us and the baby we were able to shut the house down completely and start going through at least the major appliances to see what they draw. I only bothered with those because of the digital electric meter made those easy due to the fact that all the major stuff is on separate breakers anyways.
So while the rest of the house was OFF we would just turn on one 220 breaker, turn the appliance on and read the meter so to speak.
I'll do some of the 110v stuff on an individual basis once I get one of those gizmos like I can just plug stuff into.
But non-the-less we have already found some rather surprising things going on.
I tried to make sure and take readings once an appliance "stabilized", because the initial kick on always a bit more, but then they usual come to a stable point and remain there.

The furnace is definitely a friggin' power hog. Which surprised me only because of how much of a hog it really was and it's only a 110v blower motor, only the heating elements are 220v.
15.3kw (and did have one spike that was like 19.9)

Dryer
4.85kw

Water Well
1.90kw (1HP motor)

A/C - which also surprised me because it's old as dirt so it did better than I expected. (It's like 15 years old)
4.40kw

Hot Water Heater - this one was kinda a killer too
5.30kw

Stove Top
Large Burner - 2.42kw
Small burner - 1.23kw
All four burners - 7.20kw

Oven - Needs new electronic control, so we don't even use it right now. (sometimes works, most of the time doesn't)
???kw

Refrigerator - Now here is one that we are seriously investigating. We have had it set at the initial setting it tells you which is like 5. It's really not a super old fridge or anything and it's very quiet, just an ever so slight hum. The more we thought about it the more each of us thought "hmmm...... I don't think I've ever heard it change tones". Meaning "is this thing ever turning OFF ??" So I've turned it down a little more and we're going to monitor when and how often it cycles.... if ever. But the current draw itself seems low for a compressor, but the question is whether or not it's running all the time.
.220kw (220watts)

I still have that random approximately 6kw draw I need to isolate, which I saw again today when I first started checking things this morning, but the entire house was still on and that just wasn't going to work for accuracy. I looked at the meter one minute and it said like 1.7kw, turn back around and it showed 7.8kw or so for a bit and then went away and neither of us had a clue if anything "came on" and then shortly after... it just went away. I never saw it happen again after we started doing the one for one checks with everything else off.
So I'll have to scrutinize the 110v lines next for sure.
Or maybe I'm just paranoid now because of the bill last month. Making me see things.  :laugh2:

I'll try to upload a pic of the Electric Meter I've been referring to, but right now it won't let me.
 :dunno
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Kevin Mullins

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2009, 11:33:02 pm »
The pic shows the electric Meter I've been referring to.
Where you see the .811 kw is what I have been watching.
It's a current load reading basically.
So I would start off with it at .000 kw and then turn something on and then just watch it.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 04:11:29 pm by Kevin Mullins »
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Kevin Mullins

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2009, 11:37:57 pm »
Oh.... and "the bus" only pulls about 1.53kw when everything is running.
That's 10 machines, a candy crane, a kiddie ride helicopter and an air hockey table all at the same time.

Not too shabby there.  ;)
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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2009, 01:23:54 am »
- ditch the dryer. If you have room to hang out the stuff, opt for that. It even saves on the clothing bill
- get an offer for a heat-pump. If you do all heating of water on electricity, a heat pump is very interesting as it has a efficiency of 400%. You normal stove is probably only 80% efficient.
or
- get an offer for some hot-water collectors on the roof. They are cheap and fill in at least all summer hot water loads and they lower the winter use as well.
- is there natural gas laying in the street?

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2009, 09:25:09 am »
Use cold water formulated clothes detergent. It will save you a tank of hot water, and about 50 cents per load.

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2009, 05:04:17 pm »
There is no way that a warm wash uses that much energy - the machine is only heating for a maximum of 20 mins, and my one is 2300 watts, so thats about 2/3rds a kwh of electricity maximum - It may be a bit more if I wind it up to over 60°C - but thats just insane when a 40°C wash gets all the grease out.

I have never had a cold wash work as well - except possibly in the middle of summer when the water is coming in at close to 20°C from the tap - warm washes is probably the last thing I will ever give up.

Kevin Mullins

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2009, 05:41:02 pm »
Our machine is an el' cheapy, so it doesn't have the built in water heater stuff.
But non-the-less we have actually been doing the cold wash thing for some time now.
(and I agree it doesn't work as well)
The big thing is that it obviously hasn't made a big impact on where all the electricity usage is coming from in our particular situation.

We were actually looking at new washers and dryers just last night.
Probably going to start replacing some of the higher consumption equipment once I get some comparisons on what the newer stuff really uses.

I love it when they slap a sticker on something like a clothes washer and dryer that claims to "only uses xxxkw per year"..... uh.... based on how many loads of laundry might help in that equation.
My fridge has a similar sticker, but that's a little different, once it's set it should remain a fairly consistent usage.

Somebody pull out their bill from last month and see what their overall usage was.
I guarantee it isn't no 5840 Kilowatt Hours. 

I'm still monitoring my fridge though. I keep turning it down further and further seeing how well it stays cold and seeing if it still shuts off like it's supposed to.
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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2009, 06:08:12 pm »
I would agree with the comment about a heat pump.  Ours has three cells or units that pulls air in down to about 5 degrees F before the furnace itself kicks on.  That's a simple explanation from a simple owner.   ;D

I think if you check into them, you'll find they are very efficient.

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2009, 06:34:04 pm »
Electric resistance heat is a pretty expensive way to heat space.  Natural gas or delivered liquid propane does tend to be somewhat cheaper, but a heat pump (preferably geothermal) is likely the cheapest.  Use natural gas/propane as the backup/emergency if you have it available.  COP (don't you dare call it efficiency) of 4 is attainable on conventional models (varies with outdoor temp), and I've heard of up to 7 on practical geothermal models.  Due to fluctuations in outdoor air temp, that COULD explain your usage and bills.

I tend to use 750-800kWh in the winter (gas heat) and 800-1000kWh in the summer (running the A/C, so it depends on outdoor air temp).  That's just me.  My PC (~150-200W) runs 24/7.  Electric water heater.  Reasonably new (but cheap/crappy) fridge.  Electric range.  Other sources seem negligible.  I use mostly CFLs for illumination.

Experience suggests that you add ~100kWh/mo per male household member and ~125kWh/mo for females (longer showers, more complicated clothes, etc. is the only explanation I can come up with for the difference; possibly more home cooking in some households).

I haven't proven out the draw of all the arcade games, but they'll all be running this weekend, so I should check.

Some descrepancies:
1.9kW for a 1HP motor is wrong.  It should either be 800-950W or perhaps up to about 1.5kVA.  If you're measuring VAs and not Watts, then it's more reasonable but still seems high.  For reference, 1HP (for EEs) is 746W, and motors are rated on output power.  Motors tend to be reasonable efficient (most energy consumed is converted to mechanical output), but they don't have great power factor.  1HP induction motors designed to common standards are >78% efficient.  1.9kW is in line with a 2HP motor.

220W seems a little low for a fridge, but might be right on an old model that perhaps has a smaller compressor motor.

The clothes dryer isn't likely a huge concern.  You just don't run it that much.  I'm only doing laundry for one, but I maybe run my clothes dryer for 5-6 hours in a month, and some of that time is spent in no-heat fluff/cool down.  That's only ~30kWh/mo at your measured draw.

Check all your findings against appliance tags.  All appliances will have ratings on them somewhere.  Often you're only given current draw, so multiply by line voltage to figure worst case power.  Sometimes they'll also give you a rated "wattage" which would account for power factor, so use that as your basis for comparison with measurements.  Any appliance that is substantially measured as consuming more than rated is likely broken and should be repaired/replaced (could even be a fire hazard!).

Kevin Mullins

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2009, 03:09:47 am »
Some descrepancies:
1.9kW for a 1HP motor is wrong.  It should either be 800-950W or perhaps up to about 1.5kVA.  If you're measuring VAs and not Watts, then it's more reasonable but still seems high.  For reference, 1HP (for EEs) is 746W, and motors are rated on output power.  Motors tend to be reasonable efficient (most energy consumed is converted to mechanical output), but they don't have great power factor.  1HP induction motors designed to common standards are >78% efficient.  1.9kW is in line with a 2HP motor.

Well maybe you can help decifer the power usage from the labels that I filed away when I installed the pump. I attached scans of the two labels they sent with the pump.
If I'm thinking correctly a rough idea of the wattage would be Volts x Amps ??
Looks like it's about 8.2 Amps with a max. of 9.8 Amps X 230volts.
But then there is the one label that has " KW 0.75 ". That wouldn't be the kilowatt rating would it?? (it's a lot closer to what you mentioned of 800-950W)

220W seems a little low for a fridge, but might be right on an old model that perhaps has a smaller compressor motor.

Yeah, I thought that was quite low myself, but it is a pretty small compressor.
And it's still very quiet.
My big concern with the fridge was whether or not it was continuously running. (only because we think it might have been the more we "listened" to it)
We're still kinda watching for it's on and off cycles after turning it down again.
And I will probably double check the wattage usage again just to double check.


« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 03:23:09 am by Kevin Mullins »
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MonMotha

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2009, 03:31:03 am »
According to the 2nd plate, your motor draws 0.75kW (750W) but 8.2A at rated load (1HP mechanical output).  The 0.75kW number is likely rounded.  8.2A * 230V would give you 1.9kVA.  Note that this is not 1.9kW.  Induction motors typically have pretty terrible power factor.  Most residential customers only get billed for actual energy consumed (hence Watt * Hours).  Large commerical and industrial customers are also billed for actual energy consumed, but are often penalized for poor power factor since it costs the utility extra money to deliver that energy to you if you are consuming it with poor power factor.

Your meter may be reading VAs to you, but hopefully it's only accumulating actual Watts.  Might want to check with your electric company to see how they bill.  If they're billing you for reactive power (often known as VARs), I'd say you're getting shafted, but for all I know that's become typical.

The S.F. Max Amp of 9.8 says that is the maximum current the motor should be permitted to consume.  The service factor (SF) of 1.4 indicates that the motor can safely output 1.4 times its rated horsepower, but you shouldn't consider that "useful" power - it's a safety factor only.  The SF Amp rating would be for when the motor is operating at that 1.4x rated capacity.

Note that inrush on that sucker is on the order of 50A, so that may cause erroneous readings if you don't give it a good chance to level out.

richms

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2009, 04:42:59 am »
I love it when they slap a sticker on something like a clothes washer and dryer that claims to "only uses xxxkw per year"..... uh.... based on how many loads of laundry might help in that equation.
My fridge has a similar sticker, but that's a little different, once it's set it should remain a fairly consistent usage.


If you think thats bad, here they are making all new cars come with stickers that give their annual fuel _cost_ - no matter that its being up and down and now up again, They just take the manufacturers rated l/100km, some arbitary and stupidly low number of km's, and some set fuel price which was an average of some year some time ago and put a figure on them.

Most other appliances have a star rating that is common with Australia which is pretty good since they compare like for like, so a small bar fridge will always get a low rating since it has less storage so the cost per litre of storage per year is quite high.

Also if you are being billed VA's then its really bad for a stuffed fridge since the current stays pretty much constant on motors between light and heavy load, its just that they get closer to a unity power factor when they are more heavily loaded - something that screws people up when they figure that they are only lightly loading things so dont size their inverters or other supply arrangements properly.

Also, if the fridge is never turning off then its stuffed - particually if the thermostat is not making any change in its temperature. Once at temperature it just has to cover the losses thtu the sides of it, and if you open the door for ages - that should only be a few mins an hour of runtime.

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2009, 07:21:57 am »
Found this

For some reason, I found this one quite interesting:

Mac Mini G4 1.5Ghz + Wacom A4 tablet
Power-brick plugged, computer turned off: 9 watt
System stand-by: 11 watt
Average office use: 30 watt
Importing CD to MP3: 45 watt
3D gaming: 50 watt

No name PC, Pentium IV 3.0 Ghz, Radeon X300
Turned off: 16 watt (!)
Average office use: 108 watt

Do the calculation what we would save globally if everyone switched to a Mac (mini ;)).

:D


Electricity consumption is simple: everything heated electrically uses lots amounts of energy.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 07:24:56 am by Level42 »

Kevin Mullins

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2009, 04:25:12 pm »
According to the 2nd plate, your motor draws 0.75kW (750W) but 8.2A at rated load (1HP mechanical output).  The 0.75kW number is likely rounded.  8.2A * 230V would give you 1.9kVA.  Note that this is not 1.9kW.  

Note that inrush on that sucker is on the order of 50A, so that may cause erroneous readings if you don't give it a good chance to level out.

Well, we went ahead and did another test on the water well pump and came to the same conclusion that it's pulling 1.9kW. (see attached pic)
This time I shut the pump down and drained all the water from the house and lines so that it would run longer and give the most "stabilized" reading. (usually it'll only run for about 30 seconds or so otherwise) The reading did spike up a bit around 2.4 or so for just a short stint and then came back down and stayed rock solid at 1.9. So I'm gonna investigate that some more. The pump is only like 5 years old, the one before it was 20 years old when I replaced it.
There are splices that are supposed to be waterproof and all that where the pump gets tied into the main lines.....do you think a bad line or something beings it's in water could cause an extra current draw of sorts? The pump works strong as hell though. I'm trying to decide whether to pull it up just to look everything over. (it's about an 80 foot well)

I also verified a couple other appliances by looking at the data tags on them and it also kinda clarified that what I'm seeing on the meter is indeed kilowatts, or wattage in general. (it'll read from .000kW - XXXkW)

Dryer tag - 5600 watts
Our reading - 4850 watts

Hot water heater tag - 5500 watts
Our reading - 5300 watts

More to come as I go........
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 04:11:50 pm by Kevin Mullins »
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Kevin Mullins

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2009, 04:29:04 pm »
Oh..... the fridge is definitely cycling more often after turning it down to nearly a 1.
(1-9 scale)
Gonna see how things remain cold and frozen and such.
Like I've said, I've had it set on 5 for years now and just never really paid any attention to how often it cycled.
Everything was cold..... I was happy.  ;D

Makes me wonder though if it's on it's way out then........
The killer I found was a fridge - as it lost its gas it was just running almost all the time - you never notice it because its still cold enough, until it finally dies and only gets cold - all while running constantly.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 04:31:26 pm by Kevin Mullins »
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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2009, 09:06:41 pm »
I cannot give you a true comparison as we have natural gas for our water heater and furnace but my electrical bill is high right now due to winter usage (lots of lights and more TV use)  I used 874 kwh this month and our average is about 675.   This is in Edmonton AB Canada where it is very cold and very dark in the winter.    Our gas bill is averaged over the year and comes in at around $100 a month.    I have all new (3 years old) appliances and way more than the average electronic collection.  2 computers go 24x7 because one doubles as a PVR and I have a server that runs all the time.  I have  an 18 cu ft fridge/freezer and a separate freezer along with a pop vending machine that are always on.

I have been looking at various power monitors and will probably get on that you plug the appliance into (kill a watt).  I was looking at the Black and Decker but it looks like my digital power meter is incompatable with it.

I just reread the thread and have to say that MonMothas situation is very close to mine.   So I guess if you factor out the 2 main appliances for heating the overall electrical is close.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 09:11:54 pm by BobA »

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2009, 10:38:54 pm »
Not to sidetrack, but I recently saw an interesting project for monitoring household power usage..

link http://www.ladyada.net/make/wattcher/


Koz

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2009, 01:39:29 am »
I have been looking at various power monitors and will probably get on that you plug the appliance into (kill a watt). 

Not to sidetrack, but I recently saw an interesting project for monitoring household power usage..
link http://www.ladyada.net/make/wattcher/

Yup.... just ordered this one: P3 International P4400 Kill A Watt meter
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=260356914945
Seemed to be the same product for about $20.00 cheaper than I could find it around here. And all the "local" stores had to order it anyways.

I had briefly read up on a similar project where you could turn this model into a monitoring station type thing, but right now I just want to be able to usage readings and I'll be happy.
The Kill A Watt EZ model seemed to basically be the same thing but with a built overglorified (overpriced) calculator built in to it.
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richms

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2009, 04:56:56 am »
That project appears to just be taking random samples of the voltage and current, rather then the average of an analog multiplication of them like a true measurement of wattage would need to be. I am also pretty suspect about the accuracy of the display on those plugin meters - locally we have a NZ$25 one called an elto - its the same as the jaycar one they sell for $60 or so - woefully inaccurate in my testing of it on dimmed lamps and PC's

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2009, 12:26:59 pm »
I'm not counting on the Kill a Watt unit to be super accurate or anything..... I'm just hoping to be able to note any unusual differences between appliances. Ya know, say one PC or printer or something is pulling about 200 watts and then we do another and it's pulling 600 or something ridiculously noticeable. Or just the simple fact of any particular appliance that pulls more than what I would have expected therefore I can monitor it's usage a bit more.

Like the two printers we have: One is an inkjet one is a laser.... I just recently read that these laser printers can consume quite a bit more power. I just want to get a better idea of how much more when compared to eachother.
Or the fact that we have TV's in just about every room..... how do they compare against eachother. (especially in standby modes and such)
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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2009, 07:11:29 pm »
Its the low level stuff like standby that they fail on. I have a computer that mine says takes more when turned off then turned on - I think its just that the standby 5v psu is rather a bad power factor - it wont turn a metal disc meter when off, but will when on so thats enough to tell me that its not really taking more when off - yet the plug in meter thinks its about 30something watts when off, and about the same when on (no drives in it, its running off a CF card) - if there was really 30 watts going into it, thenit would get pretty warm since there is no fan running when off.

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2009, 08:47:41 pm »
Very interesting.... I'll try to do some extensive testing and comparisons when we receive this little meter. We generally have a couple of any one type of appliance I can use to compare around here.

Gonna try and verify through the manufacturer on my well pump where they got their kilowatt usage data from. I'm starting to wonder if maybe it's from an non-loaded motor or something. (of course I'd have to pull mine to check that out of the water) Guess it's still baffling me how a motor rated at 0.75kW is pulling 1.9kW and works perfectly it seems.
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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2009, 10:48:49 pm »
Very interesting.... I'll try to do some extensive testing and comparisons when we receive this little meter. We generally have a couple of any one type of appliance I can use to compare around here.

Gonna try and verify through the manufacturer on my well pump where they got their kilowatt usage data from. I'm starting to wonder if maybe it's from an non-loaded motor or something. (of course I'd have to pull mine to check that out of the water) Guess it's still baffling me how a motor rated at 0.75kW is pulling 1.9kW and works perfectly it seems.

If you have a 1HP motor that's actually pulling 1.9kW (I still don't believe that), something is likely broken.  1.9kVA is fine (though still a little more than I'd expect) and in line with the ratings plate you showed, but 1.9kW just seems wrong.  That means the motor is dissipating over a kilowatt of heat (about as much as a normal space heater on the low or medium setting)!  I'd expect the motor to burn up in short order if it's actually doing that.  The resulting efficiency is also < 50%, which is incredibly poor, even for a cheap motor.

I have also experienced that those Kill-A-Watts do not give accurate readings on devices with "choppy" current draw like a lamp dimmer (in the dimmed setting) or a rectifier with capacitor output filter like that seen in an SMPS like a PC supply when operating at lighter than design max load.  They do seem to give reasonable readings (including VA and PF) on more traditional devices like motors and resistance heaters.

Do check to see if your meter is perhaps reading VAs not Watts.  It may read VAs in the corner but still only bill you for actual Watts.  If it actually bills you by kVAh consumed, I'd say you need to have a talk with your utility provider.


Note that a Volt*Ampere (VA) has the same dimensions as a Watt.  They're similar, but a VA number considers something known as reactive power (measured in VARs for Volt*Amps Reactive).  VARs are the result of poor power factor, such as from a lightly loaded rectifier with capacitor output filter or a lightly loaded induction motor, and result in current that "sloshes around in the lines".  The power companies don't like this because it causes more power loss for them and means they need to install bigger transformers, but they can't generally bill you for it.  That's why larger customers are sometimes penalized for poor power factor.  This is not generally a concern for residential customers.  Note also that Watts + VARs = VAs.  Despite having the same dimensions, power guys use the terms specifically to communicate what they're talking about more effectively.

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2009, 11:53:58 pm »
If you have a 1HP motor that's actually pulling 1.9kW (I still don't believe that), something is likely broken. 

I agree "something" isn't right.... but I do know that this meter is reading in kW. (hence my last picture posted which was indeed the well pump itself running) And everything else I have read off that meter works out correctly in kW for the ones I have actually compared appliance labels on.
So there may indeed be a problem with the pump, just a matter of figuring out what.
Do you think a faulty leg in the wiring could cause something like this?
(causing it to struggle and cause a greater draw or something)
Functionality wise it's just hard to tell. When the pressure tank drops enough to kick the pump on, it's only on for about thirty seconds and then it's off again. I think it's ON at 25psi and OFF at 60psi. I would have to double check that too. I can tell ya it takes a good bit of water running between on and off cycles.

I have also experienced that those Kill-A-Watts do not give accurate readings on devices with "choppy" current draw like a lamp dimmer (in the dimmed setting) or a rectifier with capacitor output filter like that seen in an SMPS like a PC supply when operating at lighter than design max load.  They do seem to give reasonable readings (including VA and PF) on more traditional devices like motors and resistance heaters.

Yeah, I'm not expecting much from a $20-$25 meter like that.
But it should be enough to give off any kind of "oh ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- !!" factor if something shows to be an extreme usage device.

Do check to see if your meter is perhaps reading VAs not Watts.  It may read VAs in the corner but still only bill you for actual Watts.  If it actually bills you by kVAh consumed, I'd say you need to have a talk with your utility provider.

Just to reiterate that this digital electric meter clearly shows " kW "next to the readings given. (I just can't seem to get a good pic of it)
I'll try giving the power company a call and chew their ear awhile and see what information they have to offer. But I'm already pretty certain it's a proper kW reading having compared some of the other appliances which fall correctly into what they should be using.

Gonna start looking into heat pump units or combo units as far as heat and AC.
I've never liked having separate units of varying age and efficiency anyways.
Yet another reason I've been trying to find data to compare my readings with.
That way I can get at least a general idea just how inefficient mine really are comparatively. (I know there will be some variances amongst units)

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2009, 01:15:25 am »
Do check to see if your meter is perhaps reading VAs not Watts.  It may read VAs in the corner but still only bill you for actual Watts.  If it actually bills you by kVAh consumed, I'd say you need to have a talk with your utility provider.

Just to reiterate that this digital electric meter clearly shows " kW "next to the readings given. (I just can't seem to get a good pic of it)
I'll try giving the power company a call and chew their ear awhile and see what information they have to offer. But I'm already pretty certain it's a proper kW reading having compared some of the other appliances which fall correctly into
what they should be using.
As I mentioned, Watts and VAs are related and have the same dimensions.  They are commonly confused or misrepresented on consumer equipment, though I'd expect GE to get it right.  I pulled up the spec sheet for your meter (I actually have the same meter, but mine has the present draw display disabled by the power company), and it wasn't overly clear.  It does call it kW, but 1.9kW for a 1HP motor just seems wrong.  It's one of those intuitive "this doesn't feel right" type numbers, and it screams VA at me, especially after seeing the ratings plate for the pump motor.

Who knows, maybe it's just a terribly inefficient motor, and they expect it to be cooled by being in the ground or something like that.  Not like it runs often enough to justify a highly efficient one.  It doesn't claim to be designed to any major standards on the plate, and I cannot find further data on the internet, so I can't use that for comparison.  NEMA class B is a very common standard (the 25HP motor sitting in my garage claims that standard), and it would specify >78% efficiency for a 1HP motor, though that may only be for 3-phase.

I would just drop all this as it's somewhat nitty gritty, but it's really the only major thing I saw you post that seemed "weird" or major to me other than your use of electric resistance heat.

Gonna start looking into heat pump units or combo units as far as heat and AC.
I've never liked having separate units of varying age and efficiency anyways.
Yet another reason I've been trying to find data to compare my readings with.
That way I can get at least a general idea just how inefficient mine really are comparatively. (I know there will be some variances amongst units)

There's very little mechanical difference between a heat pump and an air conditioner (a reversing valve, unit sizing, and duty cycle ratings).  So if you buy a heat pump, you tend to get a very nice (and somewhat oversized, which can be handy) air conditioner "for free".

I'd suggest looking into geothermal options if you plan on keeping the property for a long time.  Installation is much more expensive than a traditional heat pump, but they continue working even when it's bitterly cold and tend to have better COP during both the summer and winter, especially during the extremes.  Some systems (usually the high end geothermal ones) also include domestic hot water functions, which further improves matters (in the summer, you make hot water by cooling down your house - it's neat).  However, it may be that your climate or intended stay at this property cannot justify the installation.

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Re: Household Electricity Consumption
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2009, 01:54:41 am »
It does call it kW, but 1.9kW for a 1HP motor just seems wrong.  It's one of those intuitive "this doesn't feel right" type numbers, and it screams VA at me, especially after seeing the ratings plate for the pump motor.

I absolutely agree that it definitely jumped out and screamed "something ain't right".
I'll probably pull the pump now that it's warming up a bit to check it out. I'm gonna run it for a minute and take a reading out of the well too just to have something else to look at.

Who knows, maybe it's just a terribly inefficient motor, and they expect it to be cooled by being in the ground or something like that.  Not like it runs often enough to justify a highly efficient one.  It doesn't claim to be designed to any major standards on the plate, and I cannot find further data on the internet, so I can't use that for comparison. 

Just to be clear..... this is a submersible pump, so it's litterely IN the water, which is also it's cooling. (I'm sure you understand that, but others may not)
Here's a tad bit of information on them:http://www.waterace.com/well_1.html
Nothing really too terribly technical in the manual though.
They're not the top of the line for sure, but still cost a penny or two.

I would just drop all this as it's somewhat nitty gritty, but it's really the only major thing I saw you post that seemed "weird" or major to me other than your use of electric resistance heat.

Yes, the heating was indeed a less than desirable showing of usage. Kinda shocked me initially because we did the AC first and I thought "well, that doesn't seem too bad" and then we did the heater and was speechless. So yeah, gonna check into something else for that.
We do have a wood burner stove to supplement as well...... but trying to get three teenagers to realize that it requires actual work is near impossible. (saved our tails during the ice storm last year though)

I'd suggest looking into geothermal options if you plan on keeping the property for a long time. 

We've contemplated looking into some of the "alternative" methods as we don't plan on going anywhere. We were just gonna get the house payed down before jumping into any of that.
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