Push / Pull spinner from VCR parts

[krutknut]

I'm in the mood for a game of Discs of Tron, so I will attempt to build a push / pull spinner from a VCR head drum. I have two drums that would probably both work.

The "pull" part is trivial if I accept some friction during the pull, the problem I consider is how to get the push part working without friction during a normal spin.

edit: I do not want added friction during push or pull and I do not want the spinner to wobble either.

[krutknut]

As you see, the I have removed the ring that bolts the two parts of the drum together.


In the second image, you see that the bearings sit on the smaller lighter well-balanced part of the drum. The other part, with the shaft is a bit unbalanced on the three drums that I have.



The smaller part can be pushed and pulled up and down on the shaft without any wobble. So, a push / pull spinner should be possible to build.

The question is, how to place the microswitches for the buttons to achieve as little friction as possible?

[krutknut]

That wasn't so hard to solve. At least not the principle. The implementation might be harder. Or not...

If I place a spring between the two parts, then I can press down / pull up without any friction affecting the spin at all, since the spring rests on the part of the bearing that clings to the shaft. I just need to extend something out from the spring, so that the switches can be pressed at the up/down motion. I also need a shorter spring, because this one makes the shaft too short. Or, I could get a longer shaft. Maybe I will get rid of the lower part, since the only thing it contributes with is the shaft.

The technique will probably be similar to the Blackhawk spinner, using a disc that sticks out to push the up down buttons. Except that in this much simpler spinner, the push / pull motion will not cause any extra friction that can damage the switches (I do not have any special microswitches that are extra resistant to damage). Because the disc that pushes the up down buttons will not spin.

What do you people think?

[Major Rock Hardy]

I can't tell if your design has a moving shaft (that is, up and down) or if the shaft stays put (vertically speaking).  If the shaft moves, see the below pics of an original DOT spinner (not mine) for some ideas, namely:

You could do a similar thing that Williams did (see the Spinner02 image) whereby you stick two pieces of spring steel (the metal banding they use at lumber yards would probably work - this was an idea I had for when I get to my DOT spinner project) with holes drilled in them for the shaft.  Those two pieces could go on opposite sides of your little brass setscrew-donut thing (in place of the white plastic disk in the original spinner) and act as arms that contact either microswitches or leaf switches when the shaft moves up and down.

clear as mud?    Sometimes I don't know if I explain my ideas well enough.

[krutknut]

There are actually two shafts in the design I consider. There is a lower shaft, where the spinning VCR head can move up and down. On the picture, a lower spring is in place, which creates a push spinner. To create a pull spinner, the spring should be above. Both above and below creates a push / pull spinner. The springs rests on the edge of the bearings, and so they cause no extra friction. In a VCR head, the head rests on the edge of the bearings anyway, both on the lower VCR head part and on the top brass ring.

Then there is also a top shaft, attached to the VCR head. This shaft goes up to the spinner knob. Using this shaft one pushes and pulls the VCR head along the lower shaft. There are holes in the VCR head that can be used to attach the top shaft. Unless I do this in a bad way, there will be no wobble in this spinner, because the VCR head does not wobble on the lower shaft as it spins.

Why are there two shafts? Well, that is only because in the VCR heads I happen to have, the wheel with the bearings is balanced, whereas the lower part with the shaft is unbalanced. If the lower part was balanced as well, then one shaft would do the trick.

So both the Williams design that you present, and the Blackhawk design might work... those images got me something to think about.

[RetroBorg]

I do not want added friction during push or pull and I do not want the spinner to wobble either.

I think Christian's method from SlikStiks was a good design, it certainly wouldn't add friction, just a pity it never eventuated.

[krutknut]

Where would the actual push / pull mechanism be in that design?
Is that shaft divided in two somewhere, or does the entire thing go up and down?
Where would the buttons be attached?

[krutknut]

I have made an attempt at the push/pull mechanism. There is a spring over the wheel, and one below the wheel. It is very simple and it works very well. It spins, and the spin is not affected by the springs.

[krutknut]

And now the difficlut part... I need to attach a shaft and a knob to the wheel so that I can spin it.   

[The 80s Man]

I think it's really cool how you are sharing your ideas of making a new DOT spinner but what if some company mass produces a spinner based on your design with out your permission?

[krutknut]

I'd say go ahead and make a fortune!

[SithMaster]

I'm following this intently.  Good work so far.

[krutknut]

Thanks! Good to hear that someone wants to see how this goes.

A first attempt at the push/pull assembly. As you see in the picture where the spinner spins, there is no annoying wobble. As you see in the other picture, there are two springs, one above and one below the top (spinning) part, both springs are taken from a VCR.



As you see, I have simply mounted a piece of metal on four metal rods, cut from a cheap long piece. The scrap metal was taken from a computer, there are usually pieces like that on stationary computers, protecting unused slots for dvd players and such. The holes on the piece (luckily) matched holes in the VCR head perfectly. But it would not have been too difficult to make a custom piece, of course. VCR heads usually has a few holes that can be used to mount something like this.

The next thing to do is to mount something that can press a pair of up / down microswitches as the spinner moves up and down. And also to mount an optic wheel that I have to make.

[krutknut]

I have now made and attached a simple 125-spoke optic wheel. It's the usual kind of wheel, made of 5 layers of transparency sheets. It moves up and down with the spinning wheel, so the optic reader probably has to move up and down with it as well.

[krutknut]

I have now attached two cherry switches to the push/pull mechanism. The mechanism is simply a piece of thin metal that acts as a lever. It rests on the lower spring so that it moves up and down with the spinner. There is a small washer in between the metal lever and the bearing, so that the lever does not spin. In this way, the push/pull mechanism is isolated from the spinning wheel so that pushing and pulling does not interfere with spinning.

I would have preferred to use a switch that demanded a bit less force to be pressed. Some kind of lever-based switch maybe. But this works just fine.

In the picture, you see that I removed the optic wheel to work on the push/pull mechanism. I now also need to attach the wheel and an optic reader.

[krutknut]

I've now soldered the cables to the board from the mouse, an extremely easy task that anyone can do without skill or practice.

The annoying thing now is that I have a simpler design on my drawing board. What to do, what to do...

[ratzz]

Good work 

I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out. keep it up!

Ratzz 

[krutknut]

This is starting to look a bit like a frankenspinner, but I've got to put the electronics somewhere.... I suppose I could later make it a bit more compact.

Now, I again have executed my poor soldering skills. It was impractical to position the entire board so that the optics are aligned with the encoder wheel. Instead, I crudely cut the optics off the board, and soldered new connections from the optics to the board.

The push / pull buttons work, now the question is whether the optics will also work during a push / pull. If not, then I might just try the new design that I have drawn instead.

[krutknut]

The spinner works - but the encoding wheel is a bit bent / wobbly which makes the move a bit uneven. I have to replace it with one that is perfectly flat. The push/pull action works as well.

[krutknut]

This is the really interesting part, to see if this design can be fine-tuned to work well.

But I also have an alternative design, if it doesn't go well. This design has two shafts. The alternative design instead has two bearings. That design seems a bit less complicated to fine-tune.

[Xiaou2]

Another way...

  Make a small pedal that sits near the base of your cab.

 The pedal would have springs on either side,  and balanced in the
middle.   Have two leaf switches on each end.    Or you could even
use a joystick pot with gearing.  (dont use optical - as it will de-calibrate)

 This may make the game even easier, and more fun.   As then the up/down
wont interfere with the Precise aim of the spinner. 

 With an analog pot - one could even use it for driving or flight games.
Make sure to use gears tho - as it will not be enough pot registered to
be properly recognized by windows calibration otherwise.   Gears can
be found at local hobby shops or surplus warehouses.
 
 
 If you still opt for Optical..  use a Laser mouse instead.   They are more
accurate than anything else out there..   and you wont even need an encoder
disc.   (dont use Optical as they are poor in tracking.  Laser only)

[krutknut]

What do you mean with more "accurate" here?

[Xiaou2]

Accurate as in controllability.

 If your trying to control your spinner down to the correct pixel.. then try to adjust the
depth by pushing down,  you may cause your spinner to turn slightly - thus messing
up your aim.

 By separation of up/down control from the spin aim,  you gain more accuracy.

 Its similar to driving a car.   While they Could have added the gas and brake into
the steering wheel... its pretty well recognized that it would not be the
best idea due to loss of control accuracy.

 I actually own a DOT spinner - and really, its not all that great.   Its a clunky,
filled with too much friction, and control in DOT on up/down levels is awkward.

[krutknut]

All push / pull spinners combine up / down / spin. It gives a different kind of control than having separate buttons for up and down.  That's why I am building one.

I have now fixed the coding wheel, so the spinner works. The last thing I have to adjust is the sensor, it doesn't follow the up / down motion correctly yet, so it touches the wheel during push.

If the spinner is designed correctly, then there is no more friction than in any other spinner.

[Xiaou2]

Krutkunt,

  I was merely giving you an idea, and my opinion of the control.

 However, you seem to take it as an offense.

 "All push / pull spinners combine up / down / spin."

 REALLY?!   Way to state the severely obvious.   Especiallybeing directed at
a guy who OWNS a DOT spinner. (and before hand, had began work on my
own version)

 "If the spinner is designed correctly, then there is no more friction than in any other spinner."

 And yet you cant get the optics to follow...

 Be realistic.   Any time you are making contact with a switch AND trying to
spin at the same exact moment - you are getting extra friction.

 As for the assembly a normal spinner will not need any specialized carriages
to adjust optics for example.    Additional slide holders, and other various
assemblies typically cause additional friction.   

 The only way around this would be up/down sensors that did not
require actual touching... such as optical, hall, reed..etc.

"It gives a different kind of control than having separate buttons for up and down. "

  Using a pedal to control up/down is also different.   Its merely an opinion as to
what you may wish to use.   However,  it does have advantages over the
original design.

 Ive played my friends DOT arcade machine.  I can say with all honestly, as Ive said before,
that Im not impressed with the DOT design.   Its clunky and awkward, and hampered my
game control more than aided it.

 However, as I also said, I could care less if you are building it true to the original.
I was merely giving my opinions and suggestions.

 One problem you will probably face, is durability issues.  I also had the same problems
with my initial designs.   Which is another reason I suggested the pedal.  As well
as to give the idea to those who have already mounted spinners - and dont wish
to rip them out and replace them.


 And one more thing...

 I also had a big problem with trying to make my own encoder disc like the one
you show above.   If the disc is a hair off,  it will cause major tracking problems.
Id get maybe 358 degrees as stable tracking,  then it would 'hickup'.

[krutknut]

I don't take offenses so easily, I thought it was a nice comment you made there about what controls you like to use for your games.

But I didn't think that the difference was obvious to you since you suggested a pedal and a normal spinner instead of a push/pull spinner. So therefore I am saying that you can't use a normal spinner and pedal instead of a push / pull spinner because it is not the same thing. You even describe one difference yourself! You think it's a bad thing, whereas I think that it's part of the game, so to speak.

Are you saying that I can't make a spinner where there is no extra friction between the switch and the spinner when I push or pull? But as you (might) see above, that's exactly what I have done. The spinner spins, but the part that makes contact with the switches does not spin. Thus no friction. There is no more friction there than in a normal spinner. The movement of the optics cause some friction now, but I'm not done with it yet.

The hickup you describe might be a problem. I haven't noticed it with my other spinner, but I wasn't looking for it. Did anyone else have a problem with that?

[krutknut]

Now, instead, the sensor follows the push motion, but not the pull motion. 

[Xiaou2]

The spinner spins, but the part that makes contact with the switches does not spin. Thus no friction.

 I think you mistake my meaning.

 Its when you actually are in game and trying to for example:
 
Press Down + Turn the Dial    at the same exact time.


 The spinner may spin without much if any friction when its not being
pressed.  However... once you try to push the spinner up or down,
and Turn it -  the turn motion will be hampered by the connection of
the switch actuator as its pressing into the switches.

 And also, as you stated,  since you are moving the optics.. you also gain
additional friction from the slide mount - during normal spin without
pressing up/down.

 
 Christians Idea is a bit more realistic,  because the optics do not need to
move separately..   He moves the entire spinner assembly instead.   The optics will
always be in perfect alignment,  so will not cause any bad tracking issues
from slide mount issues - or typical vibrational problems.

Trying to slide optics is a really bad idea.   As the mounting is
going to be less rigid and less stable...  and it only gives more
chance for the optics to vibrate, rotate, or slip out of alignments.

 Mouse Optics are Very finicky.   If the optical encoder bars are not the
correct distances apart... it will throw the tracking to hell.  In best case, it
will be a small hickup.   At worst,  it will make the tracking go in reverse.

 And because of that..  its better to use pre-existing encoders which are
known to work.. as well as have a perfectly centered mount hole.   As any
wobble, or mounting that is slightly off - will cause issues.    Being that your
encoder wheel is much Larger - it makes it even more likely for trouble,
as any alignment issues will be amplified the further out from the diameter
you go.

 Both these issues you are having trouble with, are what killed my project.
I tried sliding optics, and also had encoder issues.   
 
 And honestly,  I dont mean to rain on your parade.   Its fun to invent these
things.   Just trying to let you in on the things I learned - the hard ways.

 

[krutknut]

Tell me, exactly how would the spinning motion be hampered by the switch acutator in my design? I agree that the up/down motion will be affected, just like with a pushbutton. But the spin motion is completely unaffected by the microswitch / push/pull assembly. I do not use the same design as is used in the Blackhawk spinner. (I wouldn't mind having a Blackhawk spinner by the way, but they are a tiny bit expensive)

Also, in my design, how would my side-mounted optics that do not touch (if I do it correctly) the spinning part manage to affect the spinning motion?

Possibly, you could still be right about the optics. There is no way of knowing until everything is ready. I moved the optics, so the up / down motion of the optics works now, but there is still the issue of aligning the optics and make it stay aligned.

Anyway, I think you summarize the design challenges quite well.

[krutknut]

Now I have a push / pull spinner that seems to work. Now, it's time to play test it 

[Namco]

Tell me, exactly how would the spinning motion be hampered by the switch acutator in my design?

I think he means that you'll be less accurate aiming the cursor at Sark's head while pressing and pulling the spinner. Kinda like walking and chewing gum at the same time, or when hardcore Quake or Counter-Strike players remap the fire button to the keyboard instead of the mouse, or polish their stainless steel mousepads for MAXIMUM railgun accuracy   

[krutknut]

This design was too complicated, and did not work. Everything started to wobble, and fell apart. But I'm working on a new one, based on the same idea, that will be finished eventually. This year, maybe. Or maybe next year...
The problem currently isn't the push/pull motion. That's easy. It's the mousehack that's problematic.