Cleaning a PCB

[kayoteq]

Okay, I've ended up getting another vector game board, (Space Duel) but it's had 'something spilled on it'. 
Not in the game powered on, but in storage.. (reminder: get bags for my loose pcbs)

Still in the process of getting it shipped to me, so I need some advice
on how best to approach this without destroying the game...


What's some good cleaning materials? I guess first off I need to figure out what it is (soda, oil)
get what I can, then desolder some components, clean under them, resolder. Lots of work ahead.
a gamble, yes.. but worth it it I get it working..

[HaRuMaN]

remove all your socketed chips, and stick that thing in the dishwasher.

Let dry completely, reinstall chips, and go from there.

[shardian]

Dishwasher - no detergent.

Then a toothbrush with 99% alcohol for those tough areas.

Dry thoroughly, and possibly take out socketed chips while drying. Even better to take out socket chips before the whole process if you want.

[kayoteq]

yeah, I forgot to ask about that- this dishwasher thing seems utterly insane to me. Not that it doesn't work, but just the concept.

But I guess it's like where somebody at a point decided to eat that thing in the clam shell and it didn't kill them.

Now to find someone willing to let me run a computer board through their dishwasher. Upper rack? Hair-drier after it's done?

I guess my other fear with that approach is lifted and sloshed away traces- but 1983 tech is a more durable beast than today's paper-thin leads,
and I'll go over the thing thoroughly before the wash to prevent what I can..

Well, here's crossing fingers this works out. Me wants colory cubes on screen

[ChadTower]

And afterwards, first thing you do to it once it is dry, is reflow pretty much all the solder joints and retin the edge contacts.  That will save you a lot of headaches later.

[Kevin Mullins]

Just pulled a K7000 monitor chassis from the dishwasher last night.
Done this many times over now with all kinds of stuff.

The only thing that may get messed up by running a pcb through the dishwasher are any PAPER labels and such.

Pull all of the socketed chips otherwise moisture may get trapped around the legs.
(be sure to mark where they came from)

Top rack is a good idea.

DRY, DRY, DRY
Blow out from under any chips, pin connectors and anything else you might possibly think that water would get trapped under.

If you have something like old soda spilled on it you may want to spritz a little average household cleaner directly on that area and let it sit just a minute or two before running it through the wash.

[venkman]

yeah this is also a good way to wash baseball caps. 

i wonder who thought eating those hard things the chickens sit on would be good, or milk??
good thing they checked.

[channelmaniac]

Use NO detergents.
Use hot water wash
REMOVE any batteries
REMOVE any paper labels you wish to preserve
DO NOT use the heat dry (may melt plastics)

If you have tough areas to clean I've had great success with 409 or 409 Orange cleaners and a tooth brush. Be sure to rinse very well when finished and dry before testing.

I worked in a grey market Apple repair depot in the mid 90s and we dishwashered boards regularly. It did wonders for the nasty boards that came in. All repairs were warrantied for 90 days to 6 months and we never had a redo over a problem related to cleaning.

RJ

[Blanka]

Just pulled a K7000 monitor chassis from the dishwasher last night.

Nice, have some lead, cadmium and tin residue on your plates for breakfast! 

[ChadTower]

Why not?  It's in the food anyway.

[SithMaster]

Just pulled a K7000 monitor chassis from the dishwasher last night.

Nice, have some lead, cadmium and tin residue on your plates for breakfast! 

Wait who told him to leave the plates in the washer with the pcb?

[Kevin Mullins]

Just pulled a K7000 monitor chassis from the dishwasher last night.

Nice, have some lead, cadmium and tin residue on your plates for breakfast! 

Wait who told him to leave the plates in the washer with the pcb?

First off I happen to use an old dishwasher that hardly gets used. (we actually still know how to wash our own dishes)
Second, if there is a residue of any kind being left behind then your dishwasher sucks.

[CheffoJeffo]

Just pulled a K7000 monitor chassis from the dishwasher last night.

Nice, have some lead, cadmium and tin residue on your plates for breakfast! 

Wait who told him to leave the plates in the washer with the pcb?

First off I happen to use an old dishwasher that hardly gets used. (we actually still know how to wash our own dishes)
Second, if there is a residue of any kind being left behind then your dishwasher sucks.

What he said ...

People do this all the time (self included). I was a bit incredulous at first, but it works well and if your dishwasher leaves measurable amounts of lead, cadmium or tin residue after washing boards, I would suspect that it may be leaving other things that are of greater immediate danger to your health.

[ChadTower]

I would suspect that it may be leaving other things that are of greater immediate danger to your health.

Things such as?  The only other things in there that would be dangerous would be alive and killed by heat.  You can't kill mineral poisons with heat.

Now, I don't think it's a problem, but I also don't think it's a similar problem to fungus or bacteria.

[CheffoJeffo]

I would suspect that it may be leaving other things that are of greater immediate danger to your health.

Things such as? 

Someone is making assumptions again ... I wasn't talking about biologicals, although I would be curious as to the proportion of dishwashers in use today that get hot enough to properly sanitize and kill something like e-Coli.

Before you explain that you did a stint as the Maytag man (maybe after that stint in the donut shop), I know that MY dishwasher does, but there have been reports that the average household dishwasher isn't getting up over 100 degrees F, particularly with people dialing down the temperature on their hot water heaters.

I was actually thinking of the "clean" items that we cook and eat with ... hell, there's been Melamine in dog food, candies, coffee sweetener and baby formula -- do you think that the standards for your Walmart dishes, cutlery and pots are higher ?

 

EDIT: Lest anybody think that I am speaking strictly about Melamine, I'm not.

[ChadTower]

Ah... I was looking for something you'd only be getting from the dishwasher.  Wasn't thinking of stuff you would have gotten from the dishes themselves before they even saw the dishwasher.

My dishwasher certainly doesn't get hot enough.  It sucks.  3 year old Kenmore, had two leak problems already and the house pressure isn't high enough to really drive the rotating arms anyway.  I don't even use it most of the time because the top rack stuff doesn't get clean anyway.

[shardian]

I always use the heat dry mode, and the temp gets way up there in my dishwasher. That is the main reason we use it. You cannot empty the thing for several hours because the dishes will burn you.

[Kevin Mullins]

Mine is an old Kenmore as well .... and I mean old, like aqua blue colored racks old. And I agree as for actually washing dishes I figure if I have to rinse them that well before I put them in the dishwasher so that they'll come out somewhat clean, then I might as well just hand wash them.
And this one fills up with water and uses an internal pump for water pressure...... but it still sucks for dishes.
As far as heat goes though, this one has the actual heating element like an oven in the bottom, so the water does get pretty good and hot. Which the element is also used during the dry cycle if you want it to. (switchable)

But anywho ... point being if you have any issues with using one for pcb's, monitor chassis, wiring harnesses, small pets or just about anything else you can think of .... then just don't do it.
 
(works for me)

[shardian]

I don't pre-rinse at all and my DW does great. One dish out of several loads will have food on it still, and it is almost always dried egg.

[ChadTower]

The one we have now replaced a Kenmore that was probably 30 years old and still worked well.  Problem was that the bolt holes for the top rack rusted out and crumbled.  So the damn thing was still going strong but had to be replaced anyway with a modern unit that works like crap.

[SithMaster]

The one we have now replaced a Kenmore that was probably 30 years old and still worked well.  Problem was that the bolt holes for the top rack rusted out and crumbled.  So the damn thing was still going strong but had to be replaced anyway with a modern unit that works like crap.

There wasn't a way to repair it or at least circumvent the bolt holes altogether?

[ChadTower]

There wasn't a way to repair it or at least circumvent the bolt holes altogether?

Sure, if I wanted to put that much effort into fixing a 30 year old dishwasher.  I figured buying a new one would work at least as well.  Just... not... so.

[Karetaker]

I use alcohol and a tooth brush or paint brush. Then Windex, rinse and dry it with an air compressor.

[kayoteq]

heh. Glad I provoked some weird. ..

Anyway, yeah.. I'll take everyone's advice and tackle the loose stuff, and I've got a DW lined up for use if my first run doesn't get it clean..
 (don't have one other than me, manual model) ..had to ask around a bit.. for some reason most were hesitant on letting me run a computer board through the washer..

[Level42]

Yeah i figured you would get that kind of responses while it's stupid as there is no danger for the dishwasher at all. It doesn't "know" the difference between a plate and a PCB.

In this situation I would use the wet method too. It doesn't neccesarely have to be a dishwasher though, I've cleaned a board with a regular brush and soapy water before and it worked well.

However, on boards that only have dust on them, I never risk the watery method. Simply blow away the dust with compressed air.

Also, I wouldn't do any of my monitor boards the wet way. There are too many parts on monitor chassis that can hold the water (even absorb it) for my taste.

[ChadTower]

There are too many parts on monitor chassis that can hold the water (even absorb it) for my taste.

Don't drink the water, bro.   

[orion]

Yea, you would think that it would be totally insane to wash electronics parts. The first time I ever saw anything like this was while working at a television station. One of our videographers dropped a $20,000 camcorder in a mud puddle... Anyway the engineers took it apart and soaked all the electronics in distilled water for a few days. Which leads me to my point in chiming in. The only concern with washing a part in a dishwasher is mineral deposits in the water crudding up the board (which why the engineers used distilled water). Though I would tend to think this might be an issue only if you had very hard water, and if I did I might be somewhat hesitant to wash it in the dishwasher... otherwise works great 

[Kevin Mullins]

I'm on well water which can have mineral deposits in it from time to time. Usually only noticeable in something that water constantly runs through like a faucet and such.
It builds up over a long period of time.
For a one time wash like this on this sort of stuff it isn't that big of a deal.

Now on some high end equipment that probably has alot of tiny surface mount type components, then yeah, it may be an issue like in what you're describing.

[ChadTower]

...and I doubt any of us has a $20,000 PCB.   

[kayoteq]

Yea, you would think that it would be totally insane to wash electronics parts. The first time I ever saw anything like this was while working at a television station. One of our videographers dropped a $20,000 camcorder in a mud puddle...

I helped a friend do some retrofit work on one of their ENG helicopters (they build them, not own them) and they had to remove an old mini camera. the cord cost $520,
and since they were removing it permanently, there was a minor argument as to who got to cut that expensive cord in half...

[SithMaster]

Yea, you would think that it would be totally insane to wash electronics parts. The first time I ever saw anything like this was while working at a television station. One of our videographers dropped a $20,000 camcorder in a mud puddle...

I helped a friend do some retrofit work on one of their ENG helicopters (they build them, not own them) and they had to remove an old mini camera. the cord cost $520,
and since they were removing it permanently, there was a minor argument as to who got to cut that expensive cord in half...

So the system was designed to require damage to remove parts?  How innovative.

[Kevin Mullins]

That's kinda what I was thinking .... it wasn't cut in order to install it.

[kayoteq]

Not sure either, but given the FAA rules on everything, it probably was some component that was removed, the wire run through, then the part replaced and certified. Cut the wire, everything's okay and no paperwork to fill out.. I've listened in on one of me friend's talks with their structural engineer. Lots of Ts to cross and i's to notarize.

[Kevin Mullins]

I've listened in on one of me friend's talks with their structural engineer. Lots of Ts to cross and i's to notarize.

One reason I didn't pursue a civilian career even with my aviation background.

[channelmaniac]

In aircraft manufacturing & maintenance everythign is EXPENSIVE thanks to insurance and regulations. In the case of that cable, they would spend more money and time to recertify it than to just use a new one next time.

[HaRuMaN]

Tell me about it.  I'm an operability engineer for commercial propulsion engines.  Always have to be aware of FAA regs, Part 33 as well as Part 25.

[Xiaou2]

 I wouldnt think using a Dishwasher would be a good idea if you are still using
it to clean your dishes.

 Older pCBs have Lead in them.   It may be possible that the lead gets spread
on surfaces of the machine... and later,  gets spread onto your cleaned dishes.

 If you must use water... then use a simple spray gun... or pour hot water
kettles over it.

 
 For general cleaning,  use Radio Shacks  Electronics cleaner.   The stuff works
awesome...  and has made my old pcbs look like they were brand new.
 

[CheffoJeffo]

Older pCBs have Lead in them.   It may be possible that the lead gets spread
on surfaces of the machine... and later,  gets spread onto your cleaned dishes.

Even recent PCBs have lead in them ... not to mention supply lines, pipes and soldered fittings ...

My point in my response to blanka was that, if you have cause to worry about the lead/cadmium/other heavy metals from washing PCBs in the dishwasher, you probably have a whole lot more to worry about.

I have two autistic children and heavy-metal poisoning is one of the most commonly-espoused theories for the cause of autism, so I looked into it. IMPO (IANAP), you are in far more danger from supply lines and plumbing solder than you are from PCBs. And that assumes that you aren't washing children's toys in the dishwasher ...

 

[kayoteq]

In aircraft manufacturing & maintenance everythign is EXPENSIVE thanks to insurance and regulations. In the case of that cable, they would spend more money and time to recertify it than to just use a new one next time.

The benefit/curse of that, though, is my friend is about as bad as me on pack-rat habits, so he's literally got piles of old equipment and brackets that are fine, just outdated by lighter and newer technologies. If anyone needs some keen .5 to 5 amp breakers that are panel-mounted, pm me. There's dozens of them.


..and this _used_ to be a equipment rack till I got hold of it.  I'm still finding uses for the stuff.


To get back on topic,
 I _finally_ got a message from the seller, and he thinks it's just soda.  I'm going for traditional cleaning (using the advice) before going for dishwasher. it may work out

[CheffoJeffo]

I recently obtained a set of Joust boards that have suffered what appears to be a 20-year old cola spill -- while I am not afraid to put them in the dishwasher, I am too lazy to remove all of the socketed chips, so will probably spray and wipe the boards as described by Xiaou2.

FWIW

[Mauzy]

..and this _used_ to be a equipment rack till I got hold of it.  I'm still finding uses for the stuff.


To get back on topic,
 I _finally_ got a message from the seller, and he thinks it's just soda.  I'm going for traditional cleaning (using the advice) before going for dishwasher. it may work out

What the hell is that? Is that a real dedicated Starwars? It looks like it but that Atari controller looks HUGE.

[ChadTower]

I recently obtained a set of Joust boards that have suffered what appears to be a 20-year old cola spill -- while I am not afraid to put them in the dishwasher, I am too lazy to remove all of the socketed chips, so will probably spray and wipe the boards as described by Xiaou2.

You're going to have to reseat the chips most likely anyway... they always need to be pulled and cleaned on boards like that. 

[orion]

...and I doubt any of us has a $20,000 PCB.  

I have seen people on eBay who obviously think that they do 

I helped a friend do some retrofit work on one of their ENG helicopters (they build them, not own them) and they had to remove an old mini camera. the cord cost $520,
and since they were removing it permanently, there was a minor argument as to who got to cut that expensive cord in half...

Tearing obsolete expensive stuff up can be a lot more fun than installing it sometimes   

[SavannahLion]

..and this _used_ to be a equipment rack till I got hold of it.  I'm still finding uses for the stuff.


To get back on topic,
 I _finally_ got a message from the seller, and he thinks it's just soda.  I'm going for traditional cleaning (using the advice) before going for dishwasher. it may work out

What the hell is that? Is that a real dedicated Starwars? It looks like it but that Atari controller looks HUGE.

The Atari-like controller is the right size, it's the scale of the rest of the cabinet. The cabinet is only 28" tall and the monitor is 9". A better question is where the ---fudgesicle--- he got a 9" Triniton.

[ChadTower]

That's not a 2600 controller, it's a "game in a stick" and has NTSC output.  2600 controllers don't have a silver Atari logo and they don't have buttons on the side.

[SavannahLion]

That's not a 2600 controller, it's a "game in a stick" and has NTSC output.  2600 controllers don't have a silver Atari logo and they don't have buttons on the side.

Corrected, you happy? Any other inconsequential details you would like to nitpick on? Would you like to discuss the graphic on that cabinet? How about the shape?

[HaRuMaN]

Hey, Chad, you want to quit derailing kayoteq's thread?

Peale, can we get a cleanup, aisle 1?

 

[ChadTower]

I mentioned that because it means he is using a TV... wasn't clear if you meant Trinitron as in PC monitor or TV... and the evidence was there to clear it up.

HarumaN, seriously, you seem to have a mancrush on me.  Ease up, I'm married.

[HaRuMaN]

 

[kayoteq]

Just to be clear, I was at the controls when I derailed the thread. It is a Trinitron. And I appreciate the confusion with a real one. That was the goal.

(back, finally on topic:)


Okay, finally got the PCB. and some insight as to where it came from, basically a 'building chock full of games'. 
 More on that later (as amtrack announces a delay)


Ugh.. if that's soda, I'm quitting sodas. Here's what I've done so far, since the store was closed for the cleaner.
application of liberal amounts of alcohol applied with q-tip, 1/2 hour soak, then application of high-pressure air (4-60psi) over and over.
The most effective part of that, weirdly, was when moisture got in the air stream, it provided a dishwasher-like effect. ;'

I call it 'dry washing', since it pretty much knocked the
whatever-it-is bit by bit off without any apparent damage to the components..

Before: Scary muck with actual chunks of I-Am-Afraid-To-Think:



After:


Not bad for the initial cleanup. Using proper electronics cleaner should help with the rest. Main concern is bridges on the ICs.