Unique Controls - help needed

[Xiaou2]

 I need help getting pictures and information on unique controllers.

 Mame frontend pics and info are VERY poor, and really need to be advanced.
The controllers mechanical workings are just as historical and important to
document as anything else.   


 Recently,  I ran into a game in mame:  Champion Golf.     When looking at the control
panel picture,  you see a horizontal metal bat that is 'Sprung' to one side.  You then
pull it back to the chosen distance, and release it.   

 While I know this control is POT driven...  I do NOT know if it used gearing.  So, if
I wanted to replicate this for a control panel project..  I would be stuck.   Not only that,
but the mechanical details would be a huge help in making the controller.   AND, if
anyone owned the actual PCB, but had not record of the actual control... they also
would be at a loss.

 Id like to have this thread stickied please.   And anyone who runs into a unique controller
can post it here for all to see.   Eventually, maybe we can get frontends to have a Controllers Tab  (or at most basic level 'Control Panel Bottom')    While at its best, we will
have detailed specs on each device used.

 Also, while we may know that a game used an 8 way joystick...  not all games used
the typical wico / happs units.  Some were custom, and had differing designs.  It would be
great to get the original under-pics and specs for these as well.

 For now however... Id like to just stick with the most unusual, unique and poorly documented controllers.

 As noted... any info/pics on the spring loaded Bat controllers would be great first,
as its key to something Im working on now.

 

[RayB]

Control panels with those pop up on Ebay frequently enough (and cheap enough) that you could procure yourself a variety actual controls like that and know for sure.

Just set up an automated Search reminder in your My Ebay.

[Xiaou2]

Found:

Crowns Golf Controller

 Notes:  Very Interesting!  Spring loaded  Optical unit with micro-switch to tell if it has moved? or
to recalibrate?   

  Rayb,  sorry.. currently out of work.  Cant spend much right now.    

[Xiaou2]

Sega Naomi World Series Baseball 99

 Uses a similar Bat.  Sadly, I have not gotten the details for the Bat.  But,
Interestingly enough, shows are Mini Analogs that use gearing.   Very cool!   

[SavannahLion]

I think of a number of problems that need to be overcome before this could be anywhere worthwhile. The most important is the accuracy and reproducibility of the information collected. The whole effort would be completely wasted if the information is so vague and worthless that it would be impossible to recreate any controller from the information provided. The effort of accurately compiling information on just certain controllers would be a massive project in and of itself.

Then there's the problem of defining exactly what is original. I've read that it wasn't uncommon for manufacturers to ship different joysticks or monitors with games.

I think the person to ask about the feasibility of this kind of project would be the creator of RAM Controls.

[Xiaou2]

The idea is not weather someone duplicates it now or even 3yrs from now.   Its really a
matter of historical data preservation.  One day, part duplication may be as easy as the
3d printer on your desktop.  But if history forgets the parts..  there is not even the slightest
chance at all.

 Will people really care in say 25+yrs?   I think so.  Just as all history is invaluable.

 To me, many of these controls are real works of genius.   Atari's Race Drivin sitdown
Shifter is a great example.  Its not only very real feeling, but built like a tank.  Seeing
its inner workings  'now' , can give people ideas to construct their own shifters in a
similar fashion.   

 And some controls, while very basic..  would just be interesting to see historically.  A sort
of virtual museum.   We save artwork.   We should also save and document controls too.

 Others may find the data very useful for deciding what controls to put on their panels..
and or even just to see what controls the game needs to be played well.


 Even if the parts were not documented fully or certain measurement specs were not
token... there would still be huge value to what was available.  As currently, there is
no solid depository of info for these controls at all.  Its very possible that certain controls
manuals are lost or tossed out.  Parts even tossed out.  And any info leading to them
already may be lost.   
 
"I've read that it wasn't uncommon for manufacturers to ship different joysticks or monitors with games."

 Thats true.   Just as there are many Cabinet styles for certain games & differing artworks too.
Even in that area, there are glaring problems with current documentation/pics.   And sadly, as time flys by,
it gets harder and harder to find the information / pics  needed to fill in the now blank pages of history.

 
 When I look at a site like  KLOV ... I feel its nice..   but Im also sickened by the lack of information
and the false information.   Even in Mame lists are tons of false classifications,  such where it lists trigger
sticks as trackball games.   

 Surely it would be a huge project..  but the mame user base is huge, and I think with the proper system in
place...  a lot of work could be accomplished in short time.

[SavannahLion]

Up until this year I worked in an archival facility with access to records dating back to the 1800's and before. A portion of the records included a collection of architectural and engineering drawings, blue prints, conceptual drawings and engineering notes. Unfortunately, a good percentage (my estimates hover at a conservative 60%) of the drawings are worthless for anyone other than armchair researchers or book authors. They're either missing some component which makes them incomplete, and are therefor unreproducible, or the information makes a lot of assumptions that can't really be derived from the information readily available.

The information that is complete, or largely complete, have been deemed of such extreme value that access to most of the documents were restricted (since you love conspiracies, that should give you something to chew on). Those documents were the most interesting in the entire collection by far.

Historical footnotes are nice and all, but the real value lie with documentation that allows another person to reproduce the work. Watering down detailed information for historical footnotes is a lot easier than trying to build up detailed information from historical footnotes.

I'll be more than happy to support a project that produces detailed documentation.. I won't waste my time creating footnotes of interest.

That's why I'm not a real big fan of KLOV. I find it's only real value is as a research and cross reference tool. For someone who builds new cabinets or restores existing ones, I find its value is extremely limited.

[Xiaou2]

You almost proven my point.

 You at least have some information.

 From any information, its possible in time that someone Might figure the stuff out.
Without ANY information, there is No chance nor record at all.
 
 Are you telling me that you would rather have NO efforts at all?  Letting
a good deal of history vanish?   

 Or are you saying that you want to head up the project?

 
 I dont have the money to buy every controller known to videogame kind.
(even tho my collection isnt too shabby  heh )

 But I can put in efforts in research, data/pic retrieval, etc.

 If u were referring to notes I made here... it was not something I would add to the
official database.

"The information that is complete, or largely complete, have been deemed of such extreme value that access to most of the documents were restricted (since you love conspiracies, that should give you something to chew on). Those documents were the most interesting in the entire collection by far."
 
 If information is Incomplete, and, if this info could help to realize a better
world... then it should be let loose for all to see.  That way, maybe someone out of the millions
of people Could help figure it out.  Keeping it locked up is the sure way to complete loss.

 And really..  be realistic.  Not having a complete algorithm to a problem may cause something
to be useless.   But having a pic of a controller is very different.  Its a simple device, which can
be figured out by visual clues.   Maybe it wouldnt be absolute perfect match - but it would work
well regardless.


 Right now, we need to get pics/diagrams of some of these rare controllers.  If someone can
buy & disassemble them - then mechanically document them, then great.  Till then, anything is
better than nothing.

[SavannahLion]

You almost proven my point.

 You at least have some information.

 From any information, its possible in time that someone Might figure the stuff out.
Without ANY information, there is No chance nor record at all.

You're not really looking at the picture accurately. Imagine a scenario 40 or 50 years from now where so little information is available that it's impossible to extrapolate information from what you do have. Extend that to 100, 150 or 200 years? I've worked on machines from a mere 40 years ago and while I can figure out a majority of the functions, there are still functions that are still puzzling to me. Not because I'm untrained with engineering, but because the practices of today differ from those forty years ago. Just before I left the Archives, I was working on media with unusual notations. Even after extensive discussions with specialists around the U.S., there is no clue what the notations mean.

Are you telling me that you would rather have NO efforts at all?  Letting
a good deal of history vanish?   

No. I am saying that it would be a incredible waste of effort to do a half-assed job of it.

Or are you saying that you want to head up the project?

You know what? I seriously considered a similar project to this months ago when I started to reconstruct my Hang-On cabinet. The problem isn't that I lack the capability to accomplish this kind of goal. What I lack is the exact understanding of exactly what information a person needs to record in order to create reproductions and how that information should be compiled and stored to guard against obsolescence. If that last sentence didn't make sense to you, then you might not be the right person to apply to this kind of job. I'm not trying to be cruel or anything, I'm just trying to explain it how I think the problem really is.

 I dont have the money to buy every controller known to videogame kind.
(even tho my collection isnt too shabby  heh )

In the end? That is the probably the best way to ensure its survival. Even if no one does anything with it now, a reverse engineering project in the future can be accomplished when the requirements are realized.

But I can put in efforts in research, data/pic retrieval, etc.

If you wish. Even that is a big undertaking for just one person.

"The information that is complete, or largely complete, have been deemed of such extreme value that access to most of the documents were restricted (since you love conspiracies, that should give you something to chew on). Those documents were the most interesting in the entire collection by far."
 
 If information is Incomplete, and, if this info could help to realize a better
world... then it should be let loose for all to see.  That way, maybe someone out of the millions
of people Could help figure it out.  Keeping it locked up is the sure way to complete loss.

Unfortunately, it's not my purview to do so. Sorry.

And really..  be realistic.  Not having a complete algorithm to a problem may cause something
to be useless.   But having a pic of a controller is very different.  Its a simple device, which can
be figured out by visual clues.   Maybe it wouldnt be absolute perfect match - but it would work
well regardless.

A battery is a simple device. However a picture of one would not give you information about its internal workings. A replica of one based on a photo may or may not work and might not be an absolute perfect match. If said battery isn't an accurate enough match, then said battery would likely not function well in its intended device. An obsessive arcade fanatic is likely to feel the same way about a control that isn't quite like the original.

Right now, we need to get pics/diagrams of some of these rare controllers.  If someone can
buy & disassemble them - then mechanically document them, then great.  Till then, anything is
better than nothing.

That's great! But don't rush headlong into a project that leads you down the wrong path. Give it a lot of thought so whatever is recorded is accurate and can produce accurate components.