china announces new regional jet

[danny_galaga]

leaps and bounds. leaps and bounds...

http://english.gov.cn/2007-12/22/content_841068.htm

[patrickl]

Hopefully it's safe.

When I flew to Australia, I flew with China Airlines. They were the only one with affordable business class seats (I really wasn't going to fly coach on a 24 hour flight). Great flight BTW, but a year later or so the same plane smacked into a mountain for no apparent reason. China Airlines turned out to be about the most unsafe airline in the world.

[tommy]

Now all they need to do is stop shipping us harmful products.

[danny_galaga]

Now all they need to do is stop shipping us harmful products.

all you have to do is stop buying them 

[tommy]

I guess you're right, but people did have to pay the price (injury) of these harmful products to know they were harmful. That's hardly as open and shut as you would have me believe.

[SavannahLion]

I wish it was as simple as one could so easily make such a statement. The problem isn't China, per se, the problem is us. Face it, we're a Wal*Mart nation. We want our products to be as cheap as possible, but we're not always willing to pay the price for quality or safety. When you pay $2 for a Chinese toy that would normally have cost $8 from a U.S. manufacturer, what would you expect in terms of safety and quality? Ensuring safety or quality costs money, it's not intrinsic of any product. It has to be designed right from the get go and followed through right to the very end. Yet Americans expect products to always be safe and expect to pay next to nothing for it.

Our perception of reality is skewed. You really think all those computers get "recycled" in the U.S.? They generally get shipped to countries like China. Ships go to die in Bangladesh. We've been blissfully crapping on those countries for years. Expect a little payback.

By the way, after that $2 toy breaks, it might find its way to the Great Pacific Garbage Patch.

Back to the topic at hand.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "leaps and bounds."  This just seems like another one of China's programs to gain independence from foreign manufacturers. They do this all the time. Cars, cell phones, software, all sorts of stuff. They're like this little island of pseudo-independent researchers... when they're honest.

[tommy]

Now all they need to do is stop shipping us harmful products.

all you have to do is stop buying them 

It's just like him to make a comment like that and then run away. Maybe he should stick to collecting N64 stuff and not talk about these sorts of things.

[ChadTower]

I was talking with a friend from China about this a couple of weeks back.  From his point of view (he has family working in these types of plants), the problem isn't their manufacturing, the problem is that the US companies aren't communicating US standard requirements for materials.  China doesn't have the same laws and standards that we do and when the contracts aren't specific, Chinese standard materials are used.  The problems come in when those Chinese standards don't match US standards.

[tommy]

That may be true in part, but they are hurting their own people just the same with these products, surly not hurting people in general is a requirement no matter where you are.

[ChadTower]

That may be true in part, but they are hurting their own people just the same with these products, surly not hurting people in general is a requirement no matter where you are.

It's not our job, or our place, to do anything about manufacturing standards for domestic products on the other side of the planet.

[SavannahLion]

That may be true in part, but they are hurting their own people just the same with these products, surly not hurting people in general is a requirement no matter where you are.

It is generally no manufacturers responsibility. Generally, it takes an act of Congress to make things safer, and even then, it doesn't always happen. Historically, the U.S. is equally guilty of disregarding safety regarding employees, consumers, and the environment. There are so many instances of U.S. manufacturers blatantly disregarding our safety that it's not possible to keep track of them all.

Google Ralph Nader for all the laws he helped pass for automobile safety. I don't have any proof, but I'm a little ticked he probably had something to do with getting rid of the fabled rumble seat. On an aside, landfill operators actually lobbied against the introduction of air bags.

The Rail is notarious for the massive encroachments on our safety and health and we're still paying for it to this very day. In my city, there is a rail yard where they used to dump whatever down a hole in the ground. Anything lying around, they didn't want, went down this hole. Mercury, lead, paint, thinner, anything and everything. It's been sitting there for years with no one willing to purchase the property. They used to have coal stoves in the luxury wood cars (fire hazard). The much safer and faster modern railcar hitch was invented years before the Rails would ever implment them.

The white posphor used in (old style) matches is toxic, causing posphor jaw and, by some accounts, glowing skin (don't ask, I don't know, yes, I've read the reports). In many countries, it would take the passing of laws before red posphor matches would be accepted. In the U.S. I've heard it took a Presidental request to allow U.S. manufacturers to leverage the patents.

I have a report buried somewhere in my files that talks about a once popular boat no longer manufacturered today... actually the boat is no longer in use and I can't find jack ---Cleveland steamer--- about it in any museum. In any case, the engine assembly was exposed and a cable threaded through. In many cases the cable had to be manually guided through this assembly and people used to get caught up and fed through as well.

Even today U.S. companies will knowingly put our lives at risk. It's all about the money. Ever watch Fight Club? How does that equation go? If the number of claims costs more than that of a recall then they'll do the recall. But, if the claims cost less than the recall, they won't do the recall. Wow.... that's in the interest of our safety.

[danny_galaga]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "leaps and bounds."  This just seems like another one of China's programs to gain independence from foreign manufacturers. They do this all the time. Cars, cell phones, software, all sorts of stuff. They're like this little island of pseudo-independent researchers... when they're honest.

oh, i wasn't being sarcastic or anything. i'm actually quite excited about the tech stuff china is doing. not too long ago they were riding around on their bicycles holding their little red books. now they have plans for moon missions and stuff. it's really cool. such a large nation should be at this sort of level, and they've come out of the back of the pack. people talk about india somehow being a competitor to china. meh! they've got lots of people, and that's about it. the only thing they can out-compete china with is annoying telemarketers 

oh, and patrick, that plane you were in was probably a boeing right?

edited for lousy spelling

[danny_galaga]

Now all they need to do is stop shipping us harmful products.

all you have to do is stop buying them 

It's just like him to make a comment like that and then run away. Maybe he should stick to collecting N64 stuff and not talk about these sorts of things.

well, it was pretty self-explanatory. but yeah, what savannah said 

That may be true in part, but they are hurting their own people just the same with these products, surly not hurting people in general is a requirement no matter where you are.

the chinese government have been getting better at that sort of thing. they've started a program to encourage people to be more aware of food safety for instance. simple things like looking at used by dates are a foreign concept for many there at the moment. they are encouraging people to be vigilant about dodgy manufacturers of food too. this will work (although one of the reasons i dont agree with). if a company kills people with dodgy food products, the ceo potentially faces the death penalty...

[markrvp]

That jet must be really heavy being made of lead instead of aluminum/titanium you know. 

[danny_galaga]

That jet must be really heavy being made of lead instead of aluminum/titanium you know. 

 

[SavannahLion]

people talk about india somehow being a competitor to china. meh! they've got lots of people, and that's about it. the only thing they can out-compete china with is annoying telemarketers 

I've heard the same. I've been puzzling out why people think that. India is more like Pre-WWII Japan. China is going through some sort of prolonged, delayed, Industrial Revolution. If anything, I would love to see China's rust belt.

[Level42]

Well, that looks VERY VERY VERY much like a Fokker 100 !!!!!

Compare:







But then.......Fokker was one of the best plane builders ever. Who can blame the Chinese to try and copy it 

[Level42]

By the way, the Chinese have just started buying their way into the US.....with all the bad mortgages problems they're pumping billions into the large US banks......the beginning of the end of the US as the number 1 world-wide economy ??

[ChadTower]

Look at that thing.  I ain't gettin' on that Fokker.

[Level42]

What's wrong with it ?

[ChadTower]

That Fokker looks all freakin' Chinese an stuff. 

[Level42]

Hehehehehehe.......100% Dutch quality.

They don't make them like that anymore. 

[ChadTower]

So you're saying new planes got nothin' on those Fokkers.

[tommy]

That may be true in part, but they are hurting their own people just the same with these products, surly not hurting people in general is a requirement no matter where you are.

It's not our job, or our place, to do anything about manufacturing standards for domestic products on the other side of the planet.

Are you crazy? When the products are coming here it becomes our business.

[SavannahLion]

That may be true in part, but they are hurting their own people just the same with these products, surly not hurting people in general is a requirement no matter where you are.

It's not our job, or our place, to do anything about manufacturing standards for domestic products on the other side of the planet.

Are you crazy? When the products are coming here it becomes our business.

Domestic, not exports.

[Level42]

So you're saying new planes got nothin' on those Fokkers.

I'm saying that I would board that Fokker from the late 80's/90's (which almost all have been completely overhauled in the recent years) with a lot of confidence and that I would NEVER step into that Chinese thing.

They tried started selling Chinese cars here recently. None ever made it because of the extremely poor safety. But they will learn their lessons. It just takes time. Take a look at the new Hyundai's. The one's they made in the 80's and 90's were complete rubbish. The most recent models are very decent cars and quality.....it's a repeating story (Japan->Korea->China).

[danny_galaga]

So you're saying new planes got nothin' on those Fokkers.

   i don't he got the joke.

[ChadTower]

So you're saying new planes got nothin' on those Fokkers.

   i don't he got the joke.

This Fokker is oblivious.    

[danny_galaga]

So you're saying new planes got nothin' on those Fokkers.

   i don't he got the joke.

This Fokker is oblivious.