UFC 76

[shardian]

Lesnar is something very, very few MMA fighters will ever be - an instant huge buyrate bump.  He's also a very credible challenger.  You'll see him get one tuneup fight and it won't take long at all before he gets his title shot.

He needs to work his way up. We still have no clue how well he can take hits. The Korean he fought was a cupcake fighter.

[CCM]

He needs to work his way up. We still have no clue how well he can take hits. The Korean he fought was a cupcake fighter.

Exactly, and the Korean guy he fought was a late replacement.  Just because he was a great wrestler in college and was good in the WWE  , doesn't mean he is a legitimate contender to the UFC title.  He has proven NOTHING in the MMA world.

[ChadTower]

He needs to work his way up. We still have no clue how well he can take hits. The Korean he fought was a cupcake fighter.

A pro wrestler takes more abuse than an MMA fighter.  Not usually from each other, but from being dumped on one's head from every conceivable angle 15 times a match.  He's already proven he can take abuse and keep moving forward.

The MMA world isn't always purely about ladders.  It's about drawing money on PPV.  He'll get a very, very fast track up the chain.  The only thing I can think of that may stop that is if he either loses or they decide to pop a single buyrate with him and then make an example out of him to quiet other bigheaded "outsiders".

[ChadTower]

Liddell-Silva is on... though, at this point, not nearly as many people care as would have a year ago.

[clanggedin]

This is still a great fight since they both are coming off of back to back losses. Unfortunately Pride fighters haven't done so hot in the Octagon except for Rampage. Noguiera has won his two fights but they weren't as exciting as his fights in Pride.

I am a huge fan of Vanderlei, but if he isn't training in an octagon, then he's going to be in trouble. I'm actually kinda worried for him.

Lesner is going to be a force in the UFC... The guy he fought in Japan was a Olympic Judo champion and his punched have been said to be similar to Fedor's. He also has to lose weight to fight, so he's a BIG heavyweight. I never watched him in the WWE, but if he is training like he said he is in the UFC press conference yesterday, then he could be the UFC heavyweight champ in a year. His first fight is on Feb 2 08'. It will be interesting to see who they match him up with. They'll probably have him fight Herringn or someone strong, but not a top 10 fighter.

[ChadTower]

This is still a great fight since they both are coming off of back to back losses.

I think it's a worse fight because they are both coming off two losses.  Silva lost to Henderson, which is fine, but he also lost to Cro Cop who has been embarrasingly exposed in the UFC.  You get a 37 year old striker who has looked terrible in both of his previous fights in Liddell... Liddell looks done.

Lesner is going to be a force in the UFC... The guy he fought in Japan was a Olympic Judo champion and his punched have been said to be similar to Fedor's.

The Korean guy Lesnar fought was a pushover that had no chance.  Lesnar himself says as much.  That guy was chosen to lose.  Lesnar will be a major force but beating the Korean guy didn't prove much more than that Lesnar was serious about MMA.

[CCM]

I'm definitely looking forward to  Liddell vs. Silva.  I think the fact that they are both coming off 2 losses will make them train and fight all the harder.   You have to figure that whoever losses won't be anywhere near the title hunt for a long time.

In Lesnar's own words Min Soo Kim was a tuna can.  Kim was a last minute replacement for Hong Man Choi, who is 7'2" and 400 pounds.  I don't know anything about Choi, but it would have been a much more interesting fight just based on his size.

[clanggedin]

I know that Lesner said he Min Soon Kim was a Tuna can, but he has ALOT of wrestling experience and had an awesome record when he was in the NCAA. Plus he's a BIG heavyweight.. I'm not a Lesner nuthugger, but I do believe he will bring some excitment to the boring heavyweight class now that Couture has left.

I don't think I have ever seen Silva in a boring fight. He's always fun to watch... Unfortunately I can name a few fights that Liddell has had that have been a borefest. Hopefully Silva will keep the fight moving.

They should have Forrest or Houstin, (if Houstin wins his next fight), fight the winner of this match, they are both ldoing very good right now.

[CCM]

I agree about Lesnar.  He is a phenomenal wrestler, and if he has descent stand-up and jiu-jitsu I think he can go far in the heavyweight division.  The heavyweight division in the UFC is kinda weak right now, so I can see him dominating.

I was worried about his arrogance, from some of the interviews I've read with him he seems to think he deserves a title shot right away,  but I listened to the conference call last Thursday and I was pleasantly surprised with his attitude.  I'm definitely looking forward to his first fight.

I think Liddell-Silva will be a great fight, they both NEED the win, so hopefully that will drive the action.

I'd love to see Forrest fight the winner of Liddell-Silva, I think he's really improved since his loss to Jardine.

[ChadTower]

I was worried about his arrogance, from some of the interviews I've read with him he seems to think he deserves a title shot right away,  but I listened to the conference call last Thursday and I was pleasantly surprised with his attitude.  I'm definitely looking forward to his first fight.

You have to remember he was also a pro wrestler... put a mic in front of him and half the time he cuts a wrestling promo out of habit.  You don't get elite amateur wrestlers with poor work ethics.  It simply doesn't happen, so in terms of how serious he is and how much training he will do, guaranteed if he has the right people working with him he'll be balls to the wall about it.

If you were Brock Lesnar, wouldn't you be a little arrogant?  I sure would be.   

[ChadTower]

The UFC started a fantasy game... I just created a league.  If anyone wants in, PM me your email, and I'll shoot out an invitation.  I don't see a way yet to get a url that I can post.

[CCM]

UFC announced Lesnar vs Frank Mir on Feb 2nd.   

[ChadTower]

Oooh.  That's certainly no pushover first fight.  Mir was once considered one of the top prospects in the world.

[CCM]

Yea Mir had a pretty serious motorcycle accident that put him on the shelf for a few years.  His first few fights back were a bit of a joke, he was overweight and a shell of his former self. 

In his last fight he looked great, he's back in shape and seems to be fighting at a high-level again, this is definitely going to be an interesting first fight for Lesnar.

[ChadTower]

I can't remember the UFC's heavyweight upper limit... I know Lesnar was well over it but also carrying higher bodyfat than he used to carry.  If he comes in at say 260 with single digit bodyfat I'm not sure anyone is going to be able to handle his pure strength and agility without knocking him out cold.  And that's going to be damn hard to do to a guy who walked right into an NFL training camp and took every hit they dished out.

[CCM]

I'm pretty sure the UFC upper limit is 265.

[ChadTower]

Damn... now consider that in a guy that moves like Couture with an NCAA championship background.  If he gets control on the ground no one is going to be able to buck or sweep him.

[CCM]

Mir is going to need to keep the fight standing up.  I would think that if Lesnar has a weakness it would be his stand-up.    With his wrestling background he should be a force on the ground.

And that's going to be damn hard to do to a guy who walked right into an NFL training camp and took every hit they dished out.

No doubt Lesnar is tough, but taking a hit in an NFL training camp with full pads is a little different than taking a 5oz glove to the bare head.  No one really knows what Lesnar's chin is like...

[ChadTower]

No doubt Lesnar is tough, but taking a hit in an NFL training camp with full pads is a little different than taking a 5oz glove to the bare head.  No one really knows what Lesnar's chin is like...

I disagree.  The head is exposed, sure, but the guy is standing and throwing a punch.  Now take a 300lb elite athlete, have him run 8 yards like a pulling guard, and put a full force helmet to helmet shot on another guy also running at full speed.  A trained puncher can knock you out, certainly, but kinesiologists describe NFL collisions as equivalent to midgrade car accidents in terms of impact.

One shot is clean and precise... the other is a car accident.  I'm not sure which is worse but either easily proves a guy can take serious shots. 

That isn't even accounting for what happens in a pro wrestling match in terms of head impact to the mat.  The guy used to come down on his own head regularly in very ugly ways.  Take a look at his botched moonsault at Wrestlemania, and the fact that he got up, as proof that his chin is for real.

[CCM]

So any professional football player can walk in to the octagon and take any hits a heavyweight fighter can dish out?  A punch, a knee, an elbow?

Teddy Bruschi is going to walk into the octagon and not get knocked out by Fedor, Frank Mir, Tim Sylvia, etc..??

I really don't think being tough and taking hits in the NFL or WWE translates to an automatic iron-jaw in MMA. 

All I'm saying is that no one has ever seen Lesnar take a clean shot to the jaw.  He may very well have a head like a cinder-block, but it hasn't been proven yet.

[ChadTower]

So any professional football player can walk in to the octagon and take any hits a heavyweight fighter can dish out?  A punch, a knee, an elbow?

No professional fighter can take any hits a heavyweight fighter can dish out, either.  Be fair.  What I'm saying is that a pro football player, if taught proper defense, can take the same level of hits the fighters can, if they are taught how to defend them and limit the number of them.

I really don't think being tough and taking hits in the NFL or WWE translates to an automatic iron-jaw in MMA. 

I didn't say that.  I said it proves he can take a hit.  I didn't say it makes him impossible to knock out.  No one is impossible to knock out.

All I'm saying is that no one has ever seen Lesnar take a clean shot to the jaw.  He may very well have a head like a cinder-block, but it hasn't been proven yet.

It has been shown.  Take a look at that botched moonsault at Wrestlemania.  He landed face first from about 11 feet.  He got up.  No fighter is going to hit him with that type of impact.  Now, if someone were there to hit him with a second and third shot, yes he'd be knocked out, but there isn't a person on the planet that can say otherwise.  There are many other examples but that one is probably easy to find on youtube.

[CCM]

I didn't say that.  I said it proves he can take a hit.  I didn't say it makes him impossible to knock out.  No one is impossible to knock out.

That is my point exactly...  no one is impossible to knock out... that is what I am saying.  I don't care where Lesnar cam from, WWE, NCAA, NFL, Mars... wherever, he can still be knocked out. 

I'm very curious to see this fight and see Lesnar's jaw get tested.  He definitely has the size, strength, and wrestling background to dominate MMA.  I think with 1 fight under his belt (against a rag-doll) we just need to wait and see what he can take.

We've all seen enough crazy stuff in MMA.  People you think will dominate sometimes don't.  A few months ago I would have told you that no one in the heavyweight division in the UFC could beat Cro Cop and that he would be the heavyweight champ by now, I was dead wrong there. 

[ChadTower]

That is my point exactly...  no one is impossible to knock out... that is what I am saying.  I don't care where Lesnar cam from, WWE, NCAA, NFL, Mars... wherever, he can still be knocked out. 

I haven't said he can't be knocked out.  The key isn't can he take a hit, as I believe he has proven that many times... the key is can he defend himself enough so that he isn't taking many.  That's where the nonMMA athletes always fail.  It's not that they can't take hits... it's that they can't take 10 of them.

We've all seen enough crazy stuff in MMA.  People you think will dominate sometimes don't.  A few months ago I would have told you that no one in the heavyweight division in the UFC could beat Cro Cop and that he would be the heavyweight champ by now, I was dead wrong there. 

Cro Cop was always overrated.  He had a giant rep, sure, but with the level of training guys are getting now, all he showed was that his striking was ahead of the curve... but certainly not superior to it.  He knew he'd never be able to deal with a world class jiu jitsu guy and hasn't been nearly the same here because of his fear of getting taken down.  When he stopped coming forward like a Terminator his effectiveness dwindled.

[CCM]

ok, ok.. I'm not going to go back and forth with you all day.  I realize you are a WWE/Lesnar fan-boy.  All I'm saying is that I am going to wait for Lesnar to prove it in the octagon. 

Some people seem like they have all the tools necessary to dominate in MMA and for some reason they don't.  I'm not going to over-hype Lesnar based on his non-mma background.   He needs to prove himself, which he hasn't done yet. 

There is a very good possibility that within a year he could be undefeated in the UFC and hold the heavyweight title.

I think Frank Mir is a great fighter and will be a great first opponent for Lesnar.  A decisive win against Mir will go a long way in proving to people (including me) that Lesnar is for real.

[ChadTower]

ok, ok.. I'm not going to go back and forth with you all day.  I realize you are a WWE/Lesnar fan-boy.  All I'm saying is that I am going to wait for Lesnar to prove it in the octagon. 

Having an opinion different than yours doesn't make one a fanboy.  Lighten up.

[CCM]

Our opinions aren't that different.  Have you read my posts?  I'm giving props to Lesnar, I think he can be a great fighter, I just want to SEE him be that great fighter before I crown him.

You seem to think that he IS that great MMA fighter already, that's where our difference in opinion lies.

He's a huge strong guy with a monster wrestling background, with a grand total of 1 mma fight...  All I'm saying is lets just wait and see.

Don't get so touchy just because I call you a fan-boy...

[ChadTower]

You seem to think that he IS that great MMA fighter already, that's where our difference in opinion lies.

I haven't said that either... I say "his chin is proven" and you seem to read "lesnar will dominate and can't be knocked out".  You're putting way more into my words than I am. 

Calling someone a fanboy on a web forum is an insult.  We both know that.  It's a double insult to pretend it isn't after the fact.  Still, no worries, can't wait for this fight.

[CCM]

I can't wait for the fight either, that we can agree on...

We can agree to disagree about his chin being proven....

[clanggedin]

We refer to "fanboys" in the MMA world as "nuthuggers" or "jockriders".

Lesner has a chance of losing this one. If Mir looks as good as he did before the accident he could hand Lesner his first loss. Lately it been alot harder to pick who is going to win the fights. So this fight could go either way.

I just really want to see if Lesner is the fighter all of the rumors going around say he is.

[ChadTower]

Definitely.  Those rumors about Lesnar are strong... the rumors about Mir are not all that great, either, so it's possible they see a "big name test" for Lesnar that he is likely to win.  There is a lot of money in Lesnar having at least some success and I'll be surprised if they don't ensure that happens.  Something tells me this isn't much different than enticing Ken Shamrock out of retirement so Ortiz has a big name to slap around and get back onto the title chase.