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Author Topic: LCD or SVGA?  (Read 2500 times)

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kvncooper

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LCD or SVGA?
« on: September 26, 2007, 12:01:41 pm »
Hey,

I'm new to this fantastic forum. I am attempting to build my first cab and I wanted to ask you  guys what your opinion was on the most suitable monitor.

I will mainly play (in order):

PC games (classic and present)
Console games (classic and present)
M.A.M.E

I read LCD TFT are pretty sweet, I also hear SVGA is the best if you want real authentic arcade play.

Cheers guys!

SNAAKE

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Re: LCD or SVGA?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2007, 12:19:43 pm »
lcd = lag
crt vga = no lag


go with crt !

kvncooper

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Re: LCD or SVGA?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2007, 12:48:01 pm »
Hey,

what do you mean by lag? You mean ghosting?

Also, if I use CRT, classic games will look great but what about high-def, present day games... i would imagine they would suffer

cheers

MonMotha

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Re: LCD or SVGA?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2007, 07:01:20 pm »
Um, I think you've got your terms confused.  SVGA refers to a specific set of timings from VESA, specifiying the 800x600 PC graphics mode.  It doesn't specify a display type.

There are LCDs that don't lag.  Most designed for PC work don't lag at all, though some cheap ones exhibit poor response time.  Don't trust the number the manufacturer specs as it's often tested in a way that makes no sense (WB, BW, WBW, or BWB is a useful measure while WG, GB, BG, GW, or GG is not).  Most higher end ones are very, very good.  I used to play beatmaniaIIDX on an LCD, and if there's any game that is latency sensitive, that's it.  There seemed to be about 1 frame of latency on the s-video and composiet input, and zero on the PC inputs.  This is probably due to the deinterlacer.  LCD monitors designed for use as TVs do often exhibit latency from input to display, which is very bad for gaming.

CRT PC monitors exhibit no lag and don't have response time issues.  CRT arcade monitors are similar.  CRT TVs can and often do exhibit horrible latency from input to display.  This is mostly a problem with cheap HD CRT sets which, rather than scan at the input display timings, scale everything to (usually) 1080i.  The scaler usually has quite a bit of latency.  Avoid these sets.  Plain analog SDTVs don't exhibit this behavior, but don't look all that good without taking special measures to ensure things don't get scaled in the process of making things suitable for their inputs.

Note that with an LCD, all inputs must be scaled to native res by the LCD.  This is a limitation of the technology, not a particular set.  This means that standard res arcade games will not and cannot look authentic.  With a CRT having proper dot pitch, you can get authentic looking display from standard and medium res, but display at 800x600 and above will suffer some blurriness.  If you go for visual quality at these higher resolutions, standard res tends to start to flicker and the scanline artifacts become objectionable.

Your choice will largely be affected by intended use and how much you're willing to spend.  The best option for most uses is a multi-sync arcade monitor, but these are expensive.

If you'd like to test latency of a monitor, you can do so with a little extra equipment.  Find a laptop with an s-video output and an old analog CRT television (which will have no lag).  Run a program which displays timecodes (a number incrementing every frame) on the laptop screen.  Take a picture with a digital camera where both the laptop display and the TV are in the shot.  This establishes a baseline latency in case there's lag between your laptop screen and the s-video output (often there is not).  Also plug in an old CRT PC monitor to the VGA output and repeat, if you plan to test using that signal.  Now, do the same thing with the monitors you are looking at buying.  You can tell what the latency is in frames between input and display by comparing the timecodes shown on the laptop monitor and the display under test.  Make sure your refresh rate is set to 60Hz for this (50Hz in Europe) so that there won't be any oddball framerate conversions going on as most TVs can only handle 59.94-60Hz (this also applies to LCD PC displays, just set to their native refresh - this does not apply to most CRT PC displays).

Example of this procedure

TOK

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Re: LCD or SVGA?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2007, 09:56:00 pm »
MonMotha's post looked to have some great info there. I went with an LCD in my Stargate bartop, kind of as a compromise to screen size vs. depth. I had both a 14" CRT and a 19" LCD for testing. Its an LG non widescreen (these are getting harder to find) to maintain aspect ratio as closely as possible, and LG claims a 2ms response time for this model.

While its not arcade accurate as far as looks go, there is no discernible aspect ratio problems with the games, nor is there any noticeable control lag. No blurring either. I'm thinking if any game was going to bring this shortcoming out, it'd be Defender and Stargate. It might not be perfect, but LCD's have come a long way, and I'm glad I went with the larger size. Monitor is mounted behind tinted bezel.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 10:01:02 pm by TOK »

genesim

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Re: LCD or SVGA?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2007, 06:30:07 am »
lcd = lag
crt vga = no lag


go with crt !

And you have no idea what you are talking about.

LCD has upwards of a 2ms response now.   Your eyes cannot see "lag" because it is WELL BEYOND the motion picture criteria.

Now lets talk about glare, pixel distortion, color bleeding, analog signal breakdown...etc.   Oh wait, I hashed this out on  another post.   

As far as them not looking "authentic", well neither do the CRT's unless they are in perfect native resolution.    But again, this has been discussed to death on another thread.

New games on the other hand look like crap on a CRT PERIOD!
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 06:32:33 am by genesim »

BobA

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Re: LCD or SVGA?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2007, 02:18:00 pm »
Looking towards the future of cab construction and the fact that you want PC games to look good as well.   Go for a fast LCD.   Do not go wide if possible.   A 4:3  19  or 20 inch would be good on a regular sized cab.


genesim

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Re: LCD or SVGA?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2007, 11:43:59 am »
As LCD resolution is higher and higher, using multiple pixel technology you will be able to get a close approximation of the original aspect ratio.   

But on the other hand, in these MICRSCOPIC differences, you cannot ignore serious problems with CRT like COLOR BLEEDING which greatly changes the overall perception of the intended original image.     This is not present with LCD's, because by their very nature they are separate entities.

Also IMAGE DISTORTION is another issue.   Again, because of the very nature of the PROJECTED image you get uneven quality as you get farther and farther away from the center.   Don't believe me, just use your eyes!

As for black not being represented on an LCD clearly, again we are talking about the early days.     a 5000:1 contrast ratio is going to produce black so well, that even the Plasma arguement is totally out the window.

Ghosting....non existent on 2 ms response.

In closing, I don't mind someone suggesting a CRT display, but please be open to all information and at least give "up to the minute" advice when we are talking about new hobbyists like ourselves.

After all, we are talking about people's wallets here!   Most of us don't have the time to read everything written by man.    This forum should be a tool to help new people keep the arcade dream alive.   

Even a few MAME Dev's support LCD.   ;D
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 08:24:10 am by genesim »

GAtekwriter

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Re: LCD or SVGA?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2007, 02:19:16 pm »
With an LCD 4:3 ratio, can anyone offer up an opinion on a 20" and whether you find it acceptable or not for a cab?  I'd sure like to go the LCD route, but I'm concerned about a 20" LCD being too small.  It's very difficult to find LCDs at 4:3 in larger sizes and I really want to avoid the widescreen LCD option if possible.

Jim

Jack Burton

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Re: LCD or SVGA?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2007, 08:46:54 pm »
EDIT: already explained.

EDIT2:  What I deleted just rehashed other people's posts, albeit in a less professional and useful manner.

I plan on building my own cab with a 21" CRT and it looks fine to me.   I would like something bigger, but since I got this monitor for free and it supports low res then it is what I will be using.  Since you say that PC games will be higher priority then you should go probably go with the LCD screen, especially for current games. 

There is also cost to think about.  A new LCD screen is going to cost more than a CRT. 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 09:58:04 am by megaultrasuper »

GAtekwriter

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Re: LCD or SVGA?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2007, 09:26:03 am »
Already explained?  No.  (I just love thread police with less than 50 posts under their belt...)

This thread is about LCD vs TV/VGA - BobA says a 20" LCD would be good on a cab, but I'm asking about actual experience with using an LCD of this size and whether it might appear to be too small.  I also asked if anyone was aware of any LCDs larger than 20" with a 4:3 ratio - my search hasn't found anything.


sharky

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Re: LCD or SVGA?
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2007, 10:58:04 am »
Now that I have read this post AFTER I ordered my 22" LCD widescreen for my cocktail cabinent..

How bad(stretched) will my display be with a 16:10 ratio?  :cry:


5ms
700:1 Contrast Ratio

Thanks