diesel cars. NO!

[danny_galaga]

what is it with the car manufacturers? today i saw a billboard for a diesel chrysler 300 or whatever it is. why? if you want a big car, be prepared to pay for the fuel. dont fill the air up with particulants. it doesnt matter how fancy you get with diesel motors, they still spew dirty, dirty exhaust. i really hope they stop making diesel cars soon...

[SirPeale]

I was under the impression that a properly serviced diesel engine was actually cleaner.

[SavannahLion]

I was under the impression that a properly serviced diesel engine was actually cleaner.

Diesel engines also have a wider range of fuels to select from with fewer (eg cheaper) modifications to the engine. IIRC, the original diesel engine burned some kind of vegetable oil, peanut or something. Present day diesels are much cleaner than those as recently as the 80's, they're better at burning Biofuels in less refined form, they appear to be less susceptible to air pressure differences, and I'm told they're easier to maintain.

[AtomSmasher]

I believe diesel engines produce less green house gases, but more soot and other particulants that cause a different type of problem.  They have developed filters for diesel engines that filter out the vast majority of the particulants and I know that about 5 years ago VW used to offer the filter as an option on their diesel cars, but I have no idea if they've since become a standard on all diesel cars.  My guess is they have, but my google-foo appears to be weak so I can't find any info on it.

[TOK]

Prepare for a pretty large wave of new diesel powered cars and trucks. In addition to the 300, Chrsyler/Jeep is going have new clean diesels in some Jeeps. They actually had an old style diesel Liberty for one year, discontinued this, and it's returning as a new clean diesel. I think their now-over affiliation with Mercedes drove this.

Anyone looking for info on the new wave of clean diesel stuff should probably be able to find it by searching for low sulfur diesel. This fuel, combined with new filtered exhaust and fluid injection technology that cleans up emissions will get new diesel cars to meet the 2007 passenger car diesel emissions requirements older engines could not. They actually make great sense for SUV's, since you get the monster torque for towing along with better mileage than a gas V8.

[Joystick Jerk]

I was reading not to long ago how most modern diesels can run off vegetable oil with as little as a few hundred dollars of modifications. There are a few companies out there even selling kits to convert vehicles to run on vegetable oils.

Just imagine, driving down the interstate, you need gas. You just find the closest restaurant and ask them if you can take what's in their grease trap. A quick filter later and your tanks full for free.

[ChadTower]

It's not a quick filter, it actually takes quite a while and you have to filter it a few times.  Not as simple a process as it is made out to be.

[Joystick Jerk]

They had some guys doing an across the country tour with a vegetable oil powered car, and they said it only took about ten minutes to filter a whole tanks worth. Hell, I'd do that if it took half an hour for a free tank of gas.

[ChadTower]

Then it wasn't the same type of "simple" engine mods you were also talking about... those "simple" mods require heavy filtering on the oil. 

[polaris]

Then it wasn't the same type of "simple" engine mods you were also talking about... those "simple" mods require heavy filtering on the oil. 

im not disagreeing as i know ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about engines, but have heard various stories that no modding is needed in some cases.
i have seen a generator that ran on both happily and the chip fat actually cleaned the crap that the diesel left behind

[shardian]

Is it possible someone in this thread could actually research before posting information??

Anyways, it depends on which Diesel car you have as to whether it can run on veggie oil straight up. There is a reason the people who do this tend to go with old Mercedes diesels.

Many cars powered by indirect injection engines supplied by inline injection pumps, or mechanical Bosch injection pumps are capable of running on pure SVO in all but winter temperatures. Turbo diesels tend to run better due to the increased pressure in the injectors. Pre-CDI Mercedes-Benz vehicles and cars featuring the PSA XUD engine tend to perform well too, especially as the latter is normally equipped with a coolant heated fuel filter.

The "expensive modifications" are adding a second fuel tank for diesel, adding a 3-way valve to switch between the two fuels, and adding a way to heat up the veggie oil to increase its viscosity.

And yes, some people have went as far as adding sophisticated filtering equipment to filter used cooking oil on the go.

[Zero_Hour]

Is it possible someone in this thread could actually research before posting information??

 
Crazy talk, I tells ya.

[Joystick Jerk]

Is it possible someone in this thread could actually research before posting information??

I did some research and found out you were gay.

[FrizzleFried]

Biofuel takes quite a bit of filtering and extracting of certain parts of raw oil from El Torto's taco deep fryer.

[Joystick Jerk]

Were not talking about the manufactured product Biofuel/Biodiesel. Some diesels and can fact run and bog standard cooking oil. The main things most mods kits do to make the diesels run on the oil is to heat it up so it's more viscous, increase fuel pump pressure, and add another heavy duty filter into the fuel line. Beyond that, the engines really can run on the oil right off the shelf.

This is only becoming more mainstream now, but farmers have been using this sort of thing for a while now. Peanut oil has been used extensively to power modified tractors for a couple decades now.

[shardian]

And alot of the bad fumes/smoke from big trucks on the road can be attributed to them illegally using farm grade diesel that is high in sulfur. Here in WV, there are a ton of coal trucks - almost all of which use farm grade. If they get caught, they pay the fine. It still works out to less than buying full price diesel.

[ErikRuud]

These guys did go across the country using used fryer oil, however they had a portable BioDiesel plant on a trailer to do it.

Foe the ultimate in Diesel power check out the Audi R10.  I saw a lot of coverage of this thing racing.  It was incredible, not only was it quiet, it was clean!  the R10's were almost spotless at the end of the race compared to the normally fueled cars.

[danny_galaga]

it really doesnt matter about vegetable oil. how many people are going to bother using vegetable oil in their turbo-diesel audi or chrysler 300 whosawhatsit? i dont care what they tell you. a diesel engine is a diesel engine. its got direct injection, its got pistons that move up and down in cylinders. ALL diesels get smokey once theyve been running for a few years. some of the worst are toyotas. drive behind a few diesel landcruisers with your windows open to see what i mean.

nope, unless they are going to use diesel in gas turbines, we are headed for a very smokey city environment...

here, the city council know the truth. they actually BUILD their own buses (volvo or something chassis). all the buses they build are converted not to vegetable oil, but to LNG. its cleaner, its QUIETER and australia has heaps of LNG. hell, we are now exporting it to china. why bother with overseas oil at all...

[Level42]

Diesels are very popular here in Europe and with a couple of reasons:

1) Very fuel efficient (I use 1 liter to drive 17 km's, my car is a Skoda Oktavia, about the same as a VW Golf Variant (=stationwagon) Try that with any regular petrol engine...)
2) It does NOT emit CO2 gasses
3) Diesel fuel is a lot cheaper here compared to regular gas (Diesel=1,10 Euro/liter, regular gas = 1,50/liter)

I've been driving diesel powered cars as well as normal gas cars and one's powered with LPG which also used to be pretty popular here in Holland.

The development of the Diesel engine of the period of time I've driven them is amazing to say the least. I hated it when I got my first company car. It was an old Opel Kadett with a 1.6 Diesel. 4 shifts. When starting it in the morning, it sounded and felt like a tractor. It couldn't go faster than 130 km/h.
My current car has a 1.9TDi and the power of the engine is amazing. It is also very silent and nice running. You've got much more pulling power across the RPM range. It starts to pull right from the start. I'd prefer this type of engine over a regular gas engine anytime.

Also there's a particle filter installed which reduces up to 70%. I guarantee you won't see my car putting out smoke.
Anyway, the real problem is we should forget about fuel powered cars at all and start gettting the electric powered cars ready for serious use. An electric engine is a lot more efficient (80% compared to 30% with traditional fuel engines).

[TOK]

The electric car debate (plug in and charge electrics, not hybrids) usually brings up the topic of burning coal or fossil fuels to create the extra electricity. Not sure how it really works, but the contention is that you aren't eliminating pollution with electric vehicles, you're just moving it to somewhere else in the chain.

California, which would be a prime market for electrics has recently suffered rolling brownouts because there is not enough electricity production for normal use. Plug in electrics will be a big problem for their biggest potential market.
They are coming too. GM has plans to launch them, and the Tesla electric sports car is slated for release in 08. It's completely electric and will go 200 miles on a 5 hour charge.

[patrickl]

Diesels are very popular here in Europe and with a couple of reasons:
...
2) It does NOT emit CO2 gasses
...

Excuse me?!?!? You must have a seriously advanced Diesel engine then 

[jbox]

Diesels are very popular here in Europe and with a couple of reasons:
...
2) It does NOT emit CO2 gasses
...

Excuse me?!?!? You must have a seriously advanced Diesel engine then 

He also farts sunshine and craps puppies. 

[danny_galaga]

Anyway, the real problem is we should forget about fuel powered cars at all and start gettting the electric powered cars ready for serious use. An electric engine is a lot more efficient (80% compared to 30% with traditional fuel engines).

amen!

although, years ago when i was in den haag, my uncle pointed out that they were removing diesel pumps at fuel stations in the city to encourage people NOT to buy diesels?

[danny_galaga]

The electric car debate (plug in and charge electrics, not hybrids) usually brings up the topic of burning coal or fossil fuels to create the extra electricity. Not sure how it really works, but the contention is that you aren't eliminating pollution with electric vehicles, you're just moving it to somewhere else in the chain.

California, which would be a prime market for electrics has recently suffered rolling brownouts because there is not enough electricity production for normal use. Plug in electrics will be a big problem for their biggest potential market.
They are coming too. GM has plans to launch them, and the Tesla electric sports car is slated for release in 08. It's completely electric and will go 200 miles on a 5 hour charge.

brownouts = enron. no more enron

electric is great for several reasons. one of the things you point out is an actual advantage. if you are going to create pollution anyway, why not OUTSIDE of cities? also, you can get electricity from any sort of situation. this makes an electric motor an EXTREMELY flexible device. it can be powered by coal, natural gas, nuclear, solar, wind, hydro etc...

[shardian]

3) Diesel fuel is a lot cheaper here compared to regular gas (Diesel=1,10 Euro/liter, regular gas = 1,50/liter)

Here in the states, Diesel USED to be cheaper than gasoline. Now it is on average 30 cents higher than gas. Strange too, since diesel is supposed to be easier and cheaper to produce.

[shardian]

Here in the states, Diesel USED to be cheaper than gasoline. Now it is on average 30 cents higher than gas. Strange too, since diesel is supposed to be easier and cheaper to produce.

Less demand for it, so less is being produced and the price is higher.

Environmental laws are a factor as well.

Lower demand pushes the price down. Even if the demand has increased, it doesn't make sense that diesel all the sudden is 30 cents more a gallon than gas, as opposed to 30 cents less than gas as it has been historically.

[ChadTower]

That only works if you apply the myth of supply and demand determining gas prices.  Anyone who has ever owned a car can tell you that can't be true.

[Kremmit]

Danny, I know you know a thing or two about cars -probably more than me- but you need to update your knowledge re: diesel engines.  Some of the modern ones out of Europe are NOT the noisy, stinky, polluting, in-efficient ---daisies--- you're familiar with. 

My old work truck had a Ford Powerstroke TurboDiesel in it.  It was noisy, it stunk, it blew clouds of visible smoke, and it got about 8 miles to the gallon doing my kind of work.  My new truck has a Mercedes 5 cylinder  CDI engine in it.  It's quieter than my regular car, the exhaust is invisible and smells cleaner than my regular car, and it does 20 miles per gallon doing the exact same work.

I looked into running it on veggie oil when I got it, but I do about 200 miles a day- it's awful hard to collect and filter 250+ gallons of oil a month, I honestly just don't have the time.  I wish someplace in my area was selling BioDiesel, but the nearest place is an hour North of me. 

re:  Diesel engines originally designed for veg oil:  It was peanut oil.  Damn oil companies saw this and rushed to find a way to refine a competing fuel from petroleum.  ---daisies---.

re:  Mods to run on veg oil:  The heater is to de-crease viscosity, not the other way around.  Can't burn cold veggie oil, because Crisco doesn't flow through the fuel lines so good.

re:  Diesel prices higher than regular gas in the US:  Varies from state to state; in CA Diesel was 30 cents cheaper 4 years ago, got as high as 50 cents higher for a while, and then they were back to parity a couple months ago.  Today Diesel is about 15 cents higher again.  Problem (at least in CA) stems from a lack of refining capacity for Diesel.  In part because all the CA refining plants have to devote their resources to making our "special CA blend" of unleaded as mandated by CA enviro-law.  We can't get any of our Unleaded from out-of-state refiners, so the local plants have to make all we need, even if that means cutting production of other fuels.  Effing legislature.

[ChadTower]

It was noisy, it stunk, it blew clouds of visible smoke, and it got about 8 miles to the gallon doing my kind of work. 

I dated a girl like that once.

[patrickl]

although, years ago when i was in den haag, my uncle pointed out that they were removing diesel pumps at fuel stations in the city to encourage people NOT to buy diesels?

Really? I've never heard that.

AFAIK every gas station has both kinds of fuel (and often multiple variants of those types). Well apart from LPG since that cannot be sold (or rather stored) in close range to residential areas.

They are making diesel more expensive in the Netherlands though.

BTW Euro 95 is 1,35 per liter and not 1,50. Diesel is a lot cheaper though, but then the road tax and purchase price of the car is a lot higher.

[patrickl]

Danny, I know you know a thing or two about cars -probably more than me- but you need to update your knowledge re: diesel engines.  Some of the modern ones out of Europe are NOT the noisy, stinky, polluting, in-efficient ---daisies--- you're familiar with. 

Even the new diesel engines still pollute a lot more than modern petrol engines. The extra pollution that comes from diesel cars (NOx and fine particles) causes lots of diseases and even deaths.

[Kremmit]

Danny, I know you know a thing or two about cars -probably more than me- but you need to update your knowledge re: diesel engines.  Some of the modern ones out of Europe are NOT the noisy, stinky, polluting, in-efficient ---daisies--- you're familiar with. 

Even the new diesel engines still pollute a lot more than modern petrol engines. The extra pollution that comes from diesel cars (NOx and fine particles) causes lots of diseases and even deaths.

Well, I'll admit I've done no research on the actual emissions levels compared to a new unleaded motor.  I just know it's a far cry from the kind of smoke belching monster most people think of when they think diesel. 

[patrickl]

True, 80% cleaner (on the fine particle emissions) is a lot cleaner than before.

[Level42]

Danny, I know you know a thing or two about cars -probably more than me- but you need to update your knowledge re: diesel engines.  Some of the modern ones out of Europe are NOT the noisy, stinky, polluting, in-efficient ---daisies--- you're familiar with. 

Even the new diesel engines still pollute a lot more than modern petrol engines. The extra pollution that comes from diesel cars (NOx and fine particles) causes lots of diseases and even deaths.

Well, I'll admit I've done no research on the actual emissions levels compared to a new unleaded motor.  I just know it's a far cry from the kind of smoke belching monster most people think of when they think diesel. 

Indeed....

Have to admit I was wrong about the CO2, but it is about 15% lower than with a regular gas engine.

I know a Diesel car of 10 years ago pollutes the same as 12 modern Diesel cars.

The funny thing is that the government is to blame (at least here in Holland) for the Diesel becoming so popular. Insane high gas prices force people and companies to take an economic choice. Since I'm driving about 70.000 km per year, my boss wants me to drive a Diesel engine. Despite the higher tax on the Diesel car, it's a lot cheaper when you do as many kilometers as I do per year. This is caused because of the lower price per liter but even more so because of the low fuel consumption by the Diesel engine.

Admittedly, the insanely powerful TDI's of today have also increased the popularity of the Diesel a lot....

About the electrical car: It will be a long way. Imagine that 10% of the current cars would be electric only. That would require some hefty investments in new power plants and infrastructure...

Of course these power plants also polute. The advantage over fuel engines in cars is first that the electrical engine is WAY more economic. 70% of the energy put in a fuel engine goes up in heat (and smoke ) Only 30% gets into your wheels. An electric motor should do 80%.
And on the plant site, it is easier to prevent pollution on the side of the plant. Also, when using wind, water and other environment friendly means to create electricity you would be driving completely free of polution.....I don't think we will live to see it, but maybe our children....

There is also one major thing not mentioned here: The power of the petrol companies. They don't want to shift things too quickly. They all know that supplies are running out, and they do invest in alternative power sources, but they want to keep in control, believe me.

[patrickl]

I know a Diesel car of 10 years ago pollutes the same as 12 modern Diesel cars.

I seriously doubt it. You might have read that on some pro diesel site, but there is more and more research showing that diesel engines are not actually getting cleaner at all. It only looks cleaner (by eye and by casual testing). When you look at the whole picture, diesel is still quite dirty.

Visually, they eliminated the big black clouds of smoke, but the truth is that that smoke is a lot less harmfull than the fine invisible particles that modern diesels (running on modern synthetic diesel oil) emit. Apart from the NOx which you cannot see at all of course.

Then there is the problem that they only measure the weight of the emitted particles. The newer diesels blow out more particles albeit finer ones. Overall the eight is down, but there are still more particles. Also, the finer the particles the more harmful (because they can penetrate the lungs deeper) and difficult to filter they are. In the end the overall weight of these particles might have gone down, but since there are more particles and each particle does more damage, there is only an adverse effect.

Governments are messing this up bigtime and car and fuel manufacturers are hindered by this and are forced to develop things that in reality don't work.

The open filters that are fitted on existing cars don't appear work at all. They only seem to make matters worse. If you actually look at the particle numbers and size distribution rather than overall weight alone.

With closed filters the problem is that with the newer synthetic diesel fuels they need to redesign the filters. The different burn characteristics alter the temperature at which the filter needs to be cleaned (the filtered soot needs to be burned out)

So even the new fuels are causing problems. Of course the new low sulfur fuels are miles better than the old fuel, but car manufacturers need to adapt and old cars are now not ideally suited for these new fuels.

Anyway. It's getting better, but diesel is still a very unhealthy alternative and governments and companies are not working together at full efficiency. So what else is new I guess 

The funny thing is that the government is to blame (at least here in Holland) for the Diesel becoming so popular. Insane high gas prices force people and companies to take an economic choice.

Actually the price of diesel is subsidized (or rather taxed lower) to keep transport companies competitive. The road tax is increased with the idea that only people who drive really a lot  (ie trucks) will use it. It all went horribly wrong though.

[jbox]

While you long-haul drivers are pretty screwed either way  , as a city driver issues like zero-energy idle and regenerative breaking are the sorts of technologies people forget when they do their "cost comparison". Those sort of things add up *really* fast if you spend as much time bunny-hopping as you do actually "putting the pedal to the metal". 

[Crax]

My buddy I went to college with works with his cousin who owns GoldenFuelSystems

He drives a diesel jetta and has told me he could get me a good deal on a conversion if I got a diesel vehicle.  I've thought about it, but I am just too lazy to go around finding vegetable oil and then filtering it.  I wasn't aware that diesel vehicles weren't much worse/better than regular ones.

[danny_galaga]

Here in the states, Diesel USED to be cheaper than gasoline. Now it is on average 30 cents higher than gas. Strange too, since diesel is supposed to be easier and cheaper to produce.

Less demand for it, so less is being produced and the price is higher.

Environmental laws are a factor as well.

yep, the man wants you to use diesel like he wants you to use alcohol and tobacco...

[sac01]

OK, while it might be true about the particulates I'd have to say I have a ford f250 with a powerstroke diesel and I get 22mpg on long highway runs.. I've had the same size/style truck with a gas engine and it got around 10-12mpg....sooooo while a gallon of diesel might put out more particulates than a gallon of gas, if you go almost twice as far on that gallon of diesel, isn't it at least a wash as far as which is doing more enviromental damage?

Same could be said with VW's (of which I also have and have worked on/rebuild over the years)  A VW with a TDI (diesel engine) gets around 50mpg... The same car with the gas engine gets 30-35mpg.  If you average out the polution to the miles driven I think you'll find that it really dosn't matter. 

As has been stated, the real benefits of a diesel vehicle is the ability to be flex fueled by different sources of oil (veg, waste, petro-based)



 

[danny_galaga]

for work vehicles i think it's a no-brainer- you need diesel. and 4wds that actually are used for 4wd-ing. what i'm annoyed about is regular passenger vehicles with diesel engines. i believe them to be grubbier. give me CO over particulants any day 

[sac01]

Well I guess it's all what you prefer, but I have to tell you, my fiancee just got a job that requires her to drive about an hour away each day. Since she has a mazda mpv as her primary vehicle that only gets like 20-20mpg I'm going to be putting together a VW Rabbbit for her with the older 1.6liter diesel engine.  She can expect anywhere in the 45-50 mpg range.  It just makes more sense as far as i'm concerned. 

 But I'd have to say I'm not really a tree hugger, I'm in it cuz it's just cheaper in the long run.  And I'll have to admit, there's a cool factor when I'm driving my truck and some a**hole is on my rear bumper and I floor it leaving him in a nice big cloud of particulates 

[patrickl]

OK, while it might be true about the particulates I'd have to say I have a ford f250 with a powerstroke diesel and I get 22mpg on long highway runs.. I've had the same size/style truck with a gas engine and it got around 10-12mpg....sooooo while a gallon of diesel might put out more particulates than a gallon of gas, if you go almost twice as far on that gallon of diesel, isn't it at least a wash as far as which is doing more enviromental damage?

The pollution is actually measured "per km". In comparing pollution they obviously take all aspects into account.