pinball purchasing questions

[am_monkee]

I've been wanting to add a pinball machine to my place for a while now. There's a dirty harry pinball machine up for sale for 2000 bucks. I love that game, but 2000 seems a bit steep. It is in working order and cosmetically in good shape.  I was thinking about looking for one is poor condition and then trying to restore it. However, I know very little about pinball restoration, which is fine, b/c I'm willing to learn. I'm just wondering if it's more difficult to acquire parts, art, etc. than for arcades. Any thoughts? Thanks.

[USSEnterprise]

For newer games, most parts are easy to acquire, although not necessarily cheap. Generally, it is more cost effective to buy a project IMO, and fix it up. I got my Tri-Zone for $100 needing minor board repair, and now its my favorite game, worth about $400-500 with only about $50 invested.

[am_monkee]

thanks. i think i'm going to pass on this game and search for a fixer-upper. now the real fun begins....

[shardian]

I hope for your sake that dmd's are not your favorite pins. Me and the wife love Scared Stiff, but there is no way I'll ever pay $2500-$3000 for it.

[ChadTower]

There are plenty of DMDs in the $1000-1500 range.  sharidan is just snobbing around the big money titles.   

Dirty Harry is not a $2000 machine.  I'd say $1100-1600 depending on condition and location.

[shardian]

  sharidan is just snobbing around the big money titles.   

So. It sucks when you find out your dream machine is pretty much guaranteed to stay a dream for pretty much ever.
That Grand Lizard is looking better and better...

[ChadTower]

Only if you don't want to hustle for it.  A lot of guys pick up the lesser titles, restore them, sell them at profit, sock the profit away until they build up enough for the big money title they want.  Or they trade 2/3 small titles, picked up one a a time, for the big title.  Etc.

[shardian]

Only if you don't want to hustle for it.  A lot of guys pick up the lesser titles, restore them, sell them at profit, sock the profit away until they build up enough for the big money title they want.  Or they trade 2/3 small titles, picked up one a a time, for the big title.  Etc.

There are quite a few guys here in WV that do that. Most of the time, the deals never even make it to ebay/trading journals??

The GL is with one of said purchasers - he wants to get rid of it and another to clear up space for an auction haul. He's a cool guy though and his gameroom is awesome.

[ChadTower]

Exactly.  You've got to get into the local collectors' circle and stay at least somewhat communicative.  Same as with vids but more important because there are less pins and they're higher cost.  Competition is worse, much worse, and finds are usually in worse shape.  A vid may take a good 10-20 hours of skilled work to restore well.  A pin may take 50.

[am_monkee]

There are plenty of DMDs in the $1000-1500 range.  sharidan is just snobbing around the big money titles.  

Dirty Harry is not a $2000 machine.  I'd say $1100-1600 depending on condition and location.

I did think the price was too high, but I chalked it up to being in nyc. I don't mind putting in the work to restore  a pin (in fact I want to), but I just wanted to make sure it was feasible for someone who has a limited budget (and that you can find the parts). Do the same rules apply to searching for a pin as for a cab?

[ChadTower]

Yes, but multiply the amount of parts by 10 and the amount of hours by 20.

[modessitt]

$2000 is a dealer/retailer price, and about right if you're buying a completely shopped out, restored, warrantied game in great condition.  But not from some guy who just snatches and grabs pins.

Start watching your local Craigslist's and you'll see lots of different pinballs pop up.  A lot of people paid retail prices for them and want to get most of their money back, but there are some who've gotten lucky to get a pin cheap and no longer have room for it.  Maybe post an ad telling people you're looking for a cheap pinball and see what happens.

Restoring your own pin isn't as easy as restoring a vid.  The older the game, the more difficult it is to solve problems, although they tend to be cheap fixes, while new pins are easier to diagnose, but more expensive to fix.  Most of the newer pins you seems to be interested in aren't likely to be found cheap unless they already have major problems.

We have two step-by-step restoration projects on our website you can check out to see what's all involved.

This is from a 1973 electromechanical called King Kool:
http://www.sandbamusements.com/king_kool_restoration.htm

And this is from a Twilight Zone:
http://www.sandbamusements.com/twilight_zone_recondition.htm

Bear in mind that neither of these pins had one-foot in the graveyard and were brought to us for repair.  It's quite likely that you could find a pin in much worse condition.

As far as figuring out how to repair one on your own, start spending a lot of time on this site:

http://www.marvin3m.com/fix.htm

You do need to know one end of a screwdriver from the other, but this site will help you fix almost every problem.

Just remember that hunting for a specific title is where you spend the most money.  You can usually find a pinball somewhere for less than $500 (sometimes free!), but if it has to be a Dirty Harry, then be prepared to pay for it.

[modessitt]

Oh, BTW....

If you go with an older pinball, some things to not get....

1.  Don't buy anything not made by Bally, Williams, Gottlieb, Stern, Data East, Sega, or Premier, as it is almost impossible to find replacement parts for games by companies like Chicago Coin, United, etc....

2.  Cosmetics are the biggest draw on a pinball.  Unless you don't care what it looks like, don't buy games with large patches of bare wood on the playfield (you'll never be able to touch it up to match), cabinets with repainted sides (or varnished) unless done professionally, or games that have the paint flaking off the backglass (again, touching up with paint will look worse).

3.  If a game has a broken backglass (the part on the head with the picture and name of game on it), do not buy it.  It is almost impossible to buy a replacement.  A very few are being reproduced, but they are mainly only for the super-collectible games.  An original backglass in good condition can sometimes be worth as much as the rest of the game put together.

4.  If it smells like smoke, it was probably in a house fire.  Open up the game and stick your head inside and sniff.  This is also a good way to see if cats (or mice) have been using it for a litterbox.

As I said, if you just want a pinball, then get any old junk, but if you want something that going to look good and play good in your home, then stay away from the troublesome ones....

[am_monkee]

This is great! Thank you so much for the tips, websites, and ideas. It's so nice to have a place where the knowledgeable impart their wisdom on newbs instead of ignoring them. Much appreciation

[ChadTower]

FWIW, modessitt's second post of advice comes from the point of view of someone in the business, not a collector or restorer.  I disagree with most of that post from my own point of view but don't deny that his points are valid if you're concerned about monetary value and profit in the equation.

[modessitt]

While I agree that I am "in the business", it sounds like he's just wanting a pin, not a headache.  I'd rather he get something he'll be able to play within a month or two of getting it, able to get parts if he needs them, and not have to cringe every time he sees it uglifying the house.

I see too many people show up with cheap stuff that turns out to be crap.  If you want it nice, pay for the niceness.  When working on a budget, you tend to either have to get an older model cheaply and spend the rest of your money on parts, or a newer model that has few problems and little money on parts.

As in all projects, it's better to start with a good base and build from there.  That's all I was saying.  There's a big difference in restoring a pin that's "been in storage for the last 10 years but it played when I last had it out" and "it was broken when I bought it and I just want it out of here".  If you were going to restore a vid, it's better to start with a solid cabinet, even totally stripped, than to have someone hand you a piece of broken wood and a marquee and say, "Get started." 

Someone who just "wants a pin real bad" should try to find that middle-of-the-road quality that has all or most of it's components intact and needs a few repairs and minor cosmetic work to get it running.  They will enjoy it more while learning how pinballs work.  While the original poster stated that he wanted to "do the work himself", I just thought I'd make sure he knew what he was getting into.  Pinballs and Videos are completely different animals and I've seen many a vid tech screw up a pin.  Although, no one can screw up a pinball like an electrical engineer with a free afternoon.  (how in the hell they manage to blow up every board in the game by just changing a light bulb is beyond me.)

Of course, good luck with your endeavor and we'll be glad to offer free advice when you do get something.

[USSEnterprise]

Oh, BTW....

If you go with an older pinball, some things to not get....

1.  Don't buy anything not made by Bally, Williams, Gottlieb, Stern, Data East, Sega, or Premier, as it is almost impossible to find replacement parts for games by companies like Chicago Coin, United, etc....

I disagree with you on that point. What's wrong with Atari, Chicago Coin, United, Genco, and others? Some parts may be hard to find, but you can usually find what you need. And what about the common machines companies who used now impossible-to-find parts. Gottlieb System one comes to mind.

The only company I would recommend against buying from is Zaccaria (unless you come across a Farfalla, awesome backglass!)

[modessitt]

Sorry to be unclear...... but you're right about Zaccarias...

There are, of course, options for finding parts for any pinball, even the brunswick home models.  Lots of companies reverse-engineered their competitors until a lot of things became interchangeable.

I didn't mean to say they can't be restored, but to imply that they may be more trouble than they're worth  to someone as a FIRST pinball restoration.  You'll never know how many of these "projects" show up at our door after their owners have given up, usually completely hacked or disassembled while trying to solve a "simple" problem.

Besides, if you want long-term reliability, I'd rather they get a SS Bally, Stern, or Williams than a System 1 Gottleib anyway....

Save the headache for when you are more comfortable with the world of pinball repair.

[am_monkee]

FWIW, modessitt's second post of advice comes from the point of view of someone in the business, not a collector or restorer.  I disagree with most of that post from my own point of view but don't deny that his points are valid if you're concerned about monetary value and profit in the equation.

understood and i appreciate the info, but like you said, it's still good advice. i'm actually going to pick up a free lucky ace next week. there are some problems with it, but cosmetically, it's in good shape (which i do think is important personally). i do appreciate all the advice here and am planning on spending a good part of the weekend checking out recommended sites and such. thanks again.

[modessitt]

1974 Williams Lucky Ace is a fun game for a single-player.

Welcome to the wonderful world of electro-mechanical pinball repair.

If it's free, then it probably hasn't been played in a while.  Order a rubber kit and a bottle of Novus 2 from Pinball Resource, and probably about 40 #47 bulbs to get the playfield and backbox looking good.  Then start checking Marvin's site on fixing the various problems.

Cleaning and adjusting every contact before you even turn it on will eliminate 98% of every problem these games have,. but it can be difficult to get right if you're not used to doing it, especially around the score motor.  Then it's just a case of "fine-tuning" the game.  If your lucky, it'll even include the operations manual, but if not, I may have a copy in the shop.

Good luck!

[am_monkee]

Thanks modessitt and everyone for the help and info!  For some reason, pins seem so much more delicate to me than cabs, so I am a bit apprehensive. but, I suppose it can only get easier. And-the end result will be worth it

[Tailgunner]

Thanks modessitt and everyone for the help and info!  For some reason, pins seem so much more delicate to me than cabs, so I am a bit apprehensive. but, I suppose it can only get easier. And-the end result will be worth it

Play it once with the glass off of the playfield. Delicate is not a word I'd associate with pinball.

 

[USSEnterprise]

I only put the glass on my machines when I'm not playing them. The sound is so much better.

[skippy]

I late to the conversation but have to agree.  The Marvin's site is your best friend.  Read Read and reread and follow.  I love working on the 70's Williams games, they are the easiest of the EM's to me.  I really llike the way their score motors are designed compared to the others.  Clean the score motor switch stacks up(don't go crazy adjusting switches until you know how) Clean all the score reel switchs and coil sleeves, rebuild the steppers and your usually good to go.  Take your time and have fun.

[am_monkee]

Thanks cueball.I've spent a bit of time this weekend checking out pin sites and I'm getting really jonesed to pick it up this week. I want to do this correctly and well...considering the game's held up for 30 years (for the most part), I'd like to make it hold up another 30!