Education today

[RTSDaddy2]

                        WARNING!     POST!  WARNING!

Guys, I started a new post because I didn't wish to hijack my own previous thread...but I discovered I had a lot to get off my chest this morning.

My mother and I were out doing some errands Saturday (she lives close by) and I was telling her about the current lack of a job, and that people all the time say "Boy, you teachers have it so easy...summer off, etc., etc."  I told her at the grocery store that there wasn't a single one of those people in that store - unless they were already teaching - who could do my job for more than a day without cracking under the stress brought upon us by the politics of our day.

She was also the one who told me about seeing this once in our local paper as a vent...I THINK I have it correct, my apologies to the person (who was anonymous) if I dont.....it went something like this:

Teachers are afraid of the principal
Principals are afraid of the School Board
The School Board is afraid of the parents
Parents are afraid of the kids
So who are the kids afraid of?

We had both forgotten how it went, we thought, and when I got it again this morning, I realized how ticked off I was because it's so true.

I don't know how it was when and where you went to school, but when I was growing up my classmates and I still "feared" our teachers. That's not to say we were truly frightened by them, but we KNEW better than to talk back to this person in charge of our classroom.  She / He was the boss...you sat down, you shut up, you listened, and you learned as much as you could.

Today's students (and I have 15 years experience, so I can definitely speak to this) have NONE of that.  Case in point: in the mid 1990s, I was in my first teaching job and a 7th grader brought a toy to school. Here's the dialogue:

Me: "Give me the toy, please."
Student: "No"
Me: "Give me the toy, please. You're not supposed to have that here."
Student (in front of class): " you."

So what did I do? I sent the child to the principal, thinking surely the kid would go home for the day at least.  Do you think that happened? Nope.  The kid was back in my classroom at 12 PM.  What do you think that tells today's child?  To go back to my original point, there's not a one of my classmates that would have DARED tell a teacher that for fear not only of what would happen at school but also what would happen at home!  There is no fear in these kids today!  Why would you be fearful of a system though that passes you right on through, whether you can read or write or not, simply because they don't want to damage your "self-esteem."

That is pure poppycock - what in the WORLD do people think is happening to the same child's self-esteem in later years? He / She cannot read, cannot write, cannot think for themselves at 14 - 15 years old because they've been pushed through...and this creates high self-esteem? Where is the brain that came up with THAT idea?

Don't misunderstand, I see the point - I'm not suggesting that a teacher be given the leeway to say "Johnny? Oh Johnny's nothing but a trouble maker, he'll never amount to anything."  That most definitely is the wrong approach too....no, what I'm talking about is making the kids accountable again.  If they seriously cannot read or write, let them be held back a year until they can.   

This isn't going to change anything, and truthfully isn't anything new, but I had to get some of this off my chest and my mind this morning.  I have seen the degeneration of our schools from the inside and we as a society have GOT to turn this thing around, otherwise we will truly be nothing but mindless sheep bleating in the streets, waiting on someone to tell us what to do and when to do it.

[Xam]

 

I can sympathize with you. We have a family who wanted to be a teacher. She graduated Texas A&M with her degree in hand. She landed a job at a not so good school. She flunked about 90% of the students in her class. She was told she could not do that. She pointed out that the students work did not warrant a passing grade. She was told to give them D's and let them go. She refused and resigned.

While coaching a football team for a day (coach could not make the practice) I had one kid who refused to shut up and listen. After 3 requests I told go sit down...your not playiing today. His mother went off on me. I told the woman to report me to the Y admins and we would discuss it there. The woman was upset with me even after finding out that her son was making ethnic jokes on the field!!! To answer your question "Who do the kids fear?" No one...unless we give them reason to. The kid in question was pretty good for the rest of the year after our episode.

I remember back in the day...we did fear (respectful fear) the teachers. I think it helped that when I was a kid, if you got caught a**ing up the next door neighbor would punish you...then you had to face your own parents and their punishment.

Its definately different these days.

Xam

[ChadTower]

Heh, last year coaching baseball I sent one kid off the field 3 weeks in a row for misbehaving and not paying attention.  Made him go sit on the end of the bench for the rest of the practice.  He wasn't trying, wasn't listening, and was distracting kids who were doing those things.

After the third time one of the other kids' parents came over to me and asked why I was so hard on the kid, after all his parents weren't around and clearly were just using the team as free babysitting since they didn't care enough to stick around (this is 5-6 year old instructional).  I should cut the kid some slack since he's probably acting up out of anger at his parents and I'm not helping him by punishing him for being angry at his parents.  It's not his fault, they say.  Just tolerate the poor behaviour.

I told the parent that I would appreciate it if they let me, as the head coach, do the coaching and let that kids parents, as the parents, do the parenting.  I didn't even bother to tell them that kid was my son.

[RayB]

...people all the time say "Boy, you teachers have it so easy...summer off, etc., etc."

You should expand on this bit too. Most people think teachers are "on vacation" when fact is most are working a summer job to make ends meet.

[RTSDaddy2]

I can sympathize with you. We have a family who wanted to be a teacher. She graduated Texas A&M with her degree in hand. She landed a job at a not so good school. She flunked about 90% of the students in her class. She was told she could not do that. She pointed out that the students work did not warrant a passing grade. She was told to give them D's and let them go. She refused and resigned.

You'd be surprised (well, maybe not) at how often that goes on.  In one school I was at, the kid missed half of the grading period and was passed on to the eigth grade.  HALF of the grading period.

Ray, you are absolutely correct.   Most of the teachers I know do have summer jobs to make ends meet.   Either that, or we're spending time getting ready for the next school year (which is what I was usually doing).
There is no time off for us.  Don't even get me started on teacher salaries...

Yet we have these pro atheletes who wander around, oblivious to the fact that they are role models, making 100 times the salary (I just depressed myself...that's just about right for some players)  and what do some of them choose to do?  Spend it on women, wine, and drugs.  Yet we hold THIS up to the kids and say "This is an achiever."

Again, please note that I said SOME atheletes.  There are ALWAYS those who rise above the crowd...and likewise not every teacher is worth their weight in gold either.   

But think about it....what if we could truly have a summer off because we did NOT have to work to make ends meet?  What if teachers were paid as pro atheletes, signing bonus and everything?  What if it didn't work out and a teacher could be traded to another school with the old school doing a buyout of the contract, etc?  Do you think we'd have better people interested in teaching our youth, or at least lining up at the door to try?

Oh, and before I forget it - Chad, man, my wife and I LOVED your story!! 

[ChadTower]

No problem.  My wife just went back to school to get her state certification so she could become an elementary school teacher.  It always frustrates me that people have no idea how many extra hours a good teacher puts in or how much of their own salary they spend on supplies that the school won't usually provide.  You take their $27,000 salary (that they "worked 8 months of the year for") and figure they spend 5-10% of their takehome pay on things to make them better at their job.  How many other industries do you see that in?

That's not even factoring in the undervaluing of what they provide for children and parents.  Teachers and cops.  People just don't get it.

[shmokes]

God I hate cops.

[fredster]

Why in "your day" were kids scared of the teachers?

What has changed?

[sphetr2]

Some kids my age just don't care. That's all it is. I'm in an honors/magnet program at my school and no one would dream of talking back to a teacher. But in the other part of the school, there are lots of discipline problems and such.

Also, you may not want to hear this, but sometimes it is the fault of the teacher. For example: I have two teachers. One is able to control the class completely. In the other class, kids talk out ALL THE TIME!

Kids get used to this non-strict behavior and eventually stop obeying the teacher. That's what I think, anyway.

[ChadTower]

So, what are the consequences for that?  In either class?

[RTSDaddy2]

Ok Fredster, you had to ask

1) We were brought up to respect our elders.
2) These people commanded & earned our respect.
3) We knew if we didn't we'd get our backsides worn out at home.

But you can't do that today.  A teacher or parent threatens to spank their child and the child, to quote Robin Williams, says "You hit me, I'll write a book."

Society has changed.  We must treat everyone as an equal so as not to damage fragile "self esteems."  I don't know about you, but I haven't met a kid yet who was on my level intellectually, no matter how smart that child is, because they do not have the spiritual and emotional maturity to go with it.  Period.

Spehtr, did you read my posts? I said not all teachers are worth their weight in gold.  At what point, however, do you decide "she / he's incompentent" and thus that justify your being disrespectful?  I see your point...do you see mine?  We were taught respect for our elders 24 /7 - not when the mood struck us.

[ChadTower]

At what point, however, do you decide "she / he's incompentent" and thus that justify your being disrespectful?

When it became apparent that there were no consequences for being so.  Kids now are just like kids then - the only difference is the consequences.  Kids don't respect by their nature, they are taught respect.  Usually by a combination of negative reinforcement combined with visual example.

What most parents don't understand now, and never will, is that kids don't learn by word.  They learn by example.  You can tell your kid to say please and thank you a billion times, but if you don't do it, neither will they.

[Samstag]

My wife had a rough time as a teacher for a while, but eventually found a school that appreciates and supports her.  She doesn't have to put up with disrespect from the kids anymore.  She makes enough that if she were on her own she wouldn't work summers unless it was to avoid boredom.  And this is in a lower-middle class public school.

Like any job, sometimes you work in a great environment, sometimes it's not worth sticking around for the paycheck.

[sphetr2]

So, what are the consequences for that?  In either class?

Were you talking to me? If so:

I swear, NOBODY talks out in the first class I mentioned (EVER); he probably has no punishments planned anyway. But I'm guessing referral.

In the second class, the teacher just says some crap like "be quiet" or whatever. After maybe 3 disruptions she will give a referral or detention probably. I dunno, I am a good kid. 

Suspension, referrals, detentions, they don't work no mores! We needz teh new punishments consequences!

[Xam]

Ok Fredster, you had to ask

1) We were brought up to respect our elders.
2) These people commanded & earned our respect.
3) We knew if we didn't we'd get our backsides worn out at home.

But you can't do that today.  A teacher or parent threatens to spank their child and the child, to quote Robin Williams, says "You hit me, I'll write a book."

InSociety has changed.  We must treat everyone as an equal so as not to damage fragile "self esteems."  I don't know about you, but I haven't met a kid yet who was on my level intellectually, no matter how smart that child is, because they do not have the spiritual and emotional maturity to go with it.  Period.

Spehtr, did you read my posts? I said not all teachers are worth their weight in gold.  At what point, however, do you decide "she / he's incompentent" and thus that justify your being disrespectful?  I see your point...do you see mine?  We were taught respect for our elders 24 /7 - not when the mood struck us.



Your list is correct but incomplete...the principal could also tan your hide if you got out of line...2 tanning...my leather was not that high a quality...1 tanning was all it could take.   Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

In all seriousness...getting disciplined twice for the same offense was a deterent for me...wasn't to say the double dip did not occur...it just happened less often.

EDIT: Self esteem comes from achievment...not being equal. Kids are not dumb. On our basketball team...the kids know who the go to guys are. My job as a coach is to teach them they can still contribute even if they lack the talent of some of the others. I have seen very positive results using this method. The look of pride on their faces when they do well is priceless. They have the look of..."I CAN do it! Even if I'm not as talented as Joe...I CAN still do this" That goes a long way in life!

Xam

[Xam]

Ok Fredster, you had to ask

1) We were brought up to respect our elders.
2) These people commanded & earned our respect.
3) We knew if we didn't we'd get our backsides worn out at home.

But you can't do that today.  A teacher or parent threatens to spank their child and the child, to quote Robin Williams, says "You hit me, I'll write a book."

InSociety has changed.  We must treat everyone as an equal so as not to damage fragile "self esteems."  I don't know about you, but I haven't met a kid yet who was on my level intellectually, no matter how smart that child is, because they do not have the spiritual and emotional maturity to go with it.  Period.

Spehtr, did you read my posts? I said not all teachers are worth their weight in gold.  At what point, however, do you decide "she / he's incompentent" and thus that justify your being disrespectful?  I see your point...do you see mine?  We were taught respect for our elders 24 /7 - not when the mood struck us.



Your list is correct but incomplete...the principal could also tan your hide if you got out of line...2 tanning...my leather was not that high a quality...1 tanning was all it could take.   Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

In all seriousness...getting disciplined twice for the same offense was a deterent for me...wasn't to say the double dip did not occur...it just happened less often.

EDIT: Self esteem comes from achievment...not being equal. Kids are not dumb. On our basketball team...the kids know who the go to guys are. My job as a coach is to teach them they can still contribute even if they lack the talent of some of the others. I have seen very positive results using this method. The look of pride on their faces when they do well is priceless. They have the look of..."I CAN do it! Even if I'm not as talented as Joe...I CAN still do this" That goes a long way in life!

Xam

Ok...my comments should have been below the quote...so I will quote myself for clarification.


Your list is correct but incomplete...the principal could also tan your hide if you got out of line...2 tanning...my leather was not that high a quality...1 tanning was all it could take.   Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

In all seriousness...getting disciplined twice for the same offense was a deterent for me...wasn't to say the double dip did not occur...it just happened less often.

EDIT: Self esteem comes from achievment...not being equal. Kids are not dumb. On our basketball team...the kids no who the go to guys are. My job as a coach is to teach them they can still contribute even if they lack the talent of some of the others. I have seen very positive results using this method. The look of pride on their faces when they do well is priceless. They have the look of..."I CAN do it! Even if I'm not as talented as Joe...I CAN still do this" That goes a long way in life!

Xam

[monkeybomb]

I just finished a three year teaching experience in the inner city of Los Angeles - special ed - middle school.  I have no intention on ever teaching again unless there is a genuine punishment for disrespectful students.  A referral is a joke and the students know that before day one.  They also know that the principals don't care what happens as long as they aren't bothered.  The battle is too up hill.  You can win them over by being a good teacher.  But you can't do anything when students have real life adult problems and only want to destroy your class when they come up.  like a brother getting shot or some garbage like that.  I was taking those problems home with me and realized I needed to quit.  I was good too, but I'm not interested in this system.

I will say that I also taught north of LA in a middle class area and it was much easier.  The kids in that neighborhood were scared of a phone call home, so they did what they were supposed too.  I think that is the consequence teachers need.  But that's what teachers won't get these days, in many places.

[shmokes]

It's a more difficult problem than discipline, IMO.  If you're teaching in a poor area, you are not teaching in a spare the rod area.  Poor kids are much more likely to be spanked than middle class kids.  These kids are probably going home and getting the piss kicked out of them when they get that phone call, but they've just learned to deal with having ---smurfy--- parents.  I know when I was in middle school I couldn't care less whether you called my parents, and it wasn't because my parents weren't going to go off the deep-end when I got home.

[ChadTower]

In my experience, poor kids are less likely to be beaten, on average.  A lot of them barely even see their parents.  One parent is gone completely and the other is always either working or out someplace else.  They come home to an empty house.  The middle class kids, the ones with both parents at home, doesn't necessarily mean that their parents are any good.  Most of the kids I've known who were beaten badly at home were middle class kids with alcoholic parent(s).

[sphetr2]

Spehtr, did you read my posts? I said not all teachers are worth their weight in gold.  At what point, however, do you decide "she / he's incompetent" and thus that justify your being disrespectful?  I see your point...do you see mine?  We were taught respect for our elders 24 /7 - not when the mood struck us.

I don't know, I'm don't disrespect my teachers, so I couldn't tell you.

And like it has been mentioned, it depends on how you've been brought up.

And I...uhh...read some of your posts.  Hey! They're really long!

What most parents don't understand now, and never will, is that kids don't learn by word.  They learn by example.  You can tell your kid to say please and thank you a billion times, but if you don't do it, neither will they.

I disagree. Granted, there are some things that must be taught by example. But there comes an time when you respect and value what your parents say, and heed their advice, without 'example'. I believe I have reached this stage in my life. 

[ChadTower]

I disagree. Granted, there are some things that must be taught by example. But there comes an time when you respect and value what your parents say, and heed their advice, without 'example'. I believe I have reached this stage in my life. 

I was speaking more about elementary age kids, but teenagers nearly as much.  Not to minimize your experience but 99% of teenagers don't know enough yet to know how much they don't know.  You won't understand that until later on looking back.  There's a reason people don't put much faith in the ability to reasonably communicate with teenagers... they think they know so much more than they actually do at that point in their lives and generally aren't willing to accept that they are mistaken.

[RTSDaddy2]

Xam, I think you hit it right on the head...self-achievement brings esteem.

But there is our problem today, especially in some public schools.  We don't push the kids to self-achievement.  Why would you want to struggle, fail, pick yourself up again if some teacher is going to be forced to pass you through to the next grade anyway, because your parents believe to hold you back is hurting your "self-esteem?"

It's hard as heck to watch a  kid fail at something.  I watch my 4 year old attempt things every day that she cannot do yet...but because Mom and Dad (yep, a small pat on the back here) do not always run to her aid and say "Let us help you," she eventually learns how to do the task at hand.  If we took this approach with teaching more often with kids, instead of wanting to ALWAYS give them a safe place to land, perhaps their true self-esteem would be higher (that gained through achievement).

Oh, and before I get up on another box, why must we give awards nowadays to EVERY KID who competes on the atheletic team?  Care to make a guess?   

[ChadTower]

Oh, and before I get up on another box, why must we give awards nowadays to EVERY KID who competes on the atheletic team?  Care to make a guess?   

I've never seen a team that does this.  Almost all of them do away with awards rather than give one to everybody, unless you're talking about a "participation trophy", which is just a keepsake and not an award.

[RTSDaddy2]

Wish I was joking about that...but no, it's not just a participation award.

[Xam]

Wish I was joking about that...but no, it's not just a participation award.

I know what you mean..."best 3rd string waterboy" is not a participation award.
I gave trophies to all my kids once (the league provides participation awards in the form of a medal). The only reason I did was because my kids were the only ones no other team wanted. We ended up 5-2 and each kid worked his butt off to get there. They earned the trophies. I have yet to give any trophies since...the kids (mine included) are not putting forth the effort.

Our league was trying the "no score" thing...I told them I would be keeping score. Why play a competitive game if your goal is not to win? I know winning is not everything...there is no shame in losing if you played you best and the other team is just better...the no score thing gives kids nothing to strive for.

On self esteem...Our last game last season...I was not able to make the start of the game. I arrived about 5 mins til half time. We were getting drubbed like 27-13. At half time, I chastied the kids for not playing to their potential, encouraged them to at least make the other team know they had been in a game. They won the second half 15-6 and lost the game...but each kid had pride on their face as they knew they proved they could play. That is self esteem...even in losing.

Xam