Learning a Lesson

[JONTHEBOMB]

Here is a public writing I did for a class.  This is a satire and the topic is on wasting gas.

Enjoy 

        Gas prices are constantly rising with no end in sight.  Many geologists are predicting that there will be serious shortages of gas in our lifetime.  To prevent gas from running out so quick we must punish those who are wasting gas.  These people who are wasting gas are being selfish and inconsiderate.  Just like when a criminal gets punished for committing a crime, people who waste gas need to be taught a lesson. 
   One of the easiest things to do is check that a vehicle has the proper tire pressure.  Improper tire pressure is like filling up a gas container then tossing in a lighted match.  Tires are needed for a car to travel, which is similar to walking around in a pair of shoes. Those people that are too lazy to check the tire pressure on their vehicle should be forced to walk around bare foot on shards of glass. 
        Car maintenance is important so a car will run properly and not consume more gas than is necessary.  Some people drive their vehicle around and act like they have lost their senses.  They ignore big red warning lights on the dashboard and pay no attention to loud noises coming from the engine.  When what they should do is bring their car to a mechanic.  A car deserves the same care as any family member.  People that do not care for their car should be held to the same laws that apply for neglecting a child. 
        Fast acceleration is completely unnecessary and wastes a ton of gas.  Everyday we witness people who seem to be in a hurry that requires them to act like every stoplight is the starting line for a race.  Once they see the green light their foot turns into lead and the car guns through the intersection to the next race.  For these speed demons we should just amputate their legs so they can slow down and enjoy life for a while. 
        Then we have wimps that start their car in the morning and let it warm up until it’s the same temperature as in their house, which takes usually twenty minutes.  Five minutes is the most a car should be allowed to warm up.  Any more than five minutes and the person responsible should have to sit naked out in the cold for however long the car was left running.  There is no point in wasting gas for a little comfort. 
        Finally there are those people that drive big vehicles for no apparent reason.  Many people drive vehicles like trucks or sport utility vehicles (SUVs) and don’t use them for their intended purpose.  The purpose of a large vehicle is to use the power in a constructive way.  Hauling lumber or using the trailer hitch to move a boat are great uses for big vehicles.  For people who just drive these vehicles to make themselves feel powerful and safe are not using the vehicle properly.  These people should serve the community by donating their time to give free piggyback rides for a week to anywhere in the country. 
        To save even more on gas we should not allow any senior citizens to drive.  Senior citizens make pointless trips and drive too slow, which creates traffic.  Traffic makes cars move slow and burns precious gas.  With all these rules traffic will be almost nonexistent because many people will be working on their punishment.  Traffic also raises gas prices so the more we can cut it the better. 
        Cars were created to get a person from point A to point B.  All the extra stuff that car manufactures have added like radios, air conditioning and even heated seats are completely unnecessary and their only purpose is to waste gas.  What needs to happen is all cars need to be built exactly the same.  The perfect car would be small, have the necessary items to drive, and nothing else.  If the United States government started taking these actions, gas consumption would go down drastically.  Driving isn’t supposed to be fun.

[missioncontrol]

 


Hooray for pointless driving 

[sphetr2]

 


Hooray for pointless writing 

Best Part:
To save even more on gas we should not allow any senior citizens to drive.  Senior citizens make pointless trips and drive too slow, which creates traffic.  Traffic makes cars move slow and burns precious gas.  With all these rules traffic will be almost nonexistent because many people will be working on their punishment.  Traffic also raises gas prices so the more we can cut it the better.

[FrizzleFried]

Finally there are those people that drive big vehicles for no apparent reason.  Many people drive vehicles like trucks or sport utility vehicles (SUVs) and don’t use them for their intended purpose.  The purpose of a large vehicle is to use the power in a constructive way.  Hauling lumber or using the trailer hitch to move a boat are great uses for big vehicles.  For people who just drive these vehicles to make themselves feel powerful and safe are not using the vehicle properly.

Hmm...and what are people to do with their SUVs and Trucks when they AREN'T hauling lumber or using the trailer hitch to move a boat?   I suppose we are supposed to park our trucks the 350 days a year we aren't pulling our boat?   

Was this a highschool class?   I'd suggest you do a little more research my friend.

[AtomSmasher]

As a driver of a gas guzzling muscle car I just wanted to say     and in conclusion

[Dartful Dodger]

Fast acceleration is completely unnecessary and wastes a ton of gas.  Everyday we witness people who seem to be in a hurry that requires them to act like every stoplight is the starting line for a race. 

I accelerate off the line so no one cuts in front of me and/or I don't get stopped at the next light.  I care about this world so I don't want to waste gas at a stop light or my time.  I can't be driving behind someone going slow when I could be using that time to save this precious world we live in.

Off subject a little, but this topic has run it's course, so I'll breath some life into it.

A friend of my had a theory about why drag racing and NASCAR is popular in the United states and road racing is popular in Europe.

It's because of the way we drive.  In America we drive from one stop light to the next and we only have to turn in one direction, unless we're cutting someone off.  In Europe they drive for miles and miles on winding roads.

[JONTHEBOMB]

Hmm...and what are people to do with their SUVs and Trucks when they AREN'T hauling lumber or using the trailer hitch to move a boat?   I suppose we are supposed to park our trucks the 350 days a year we aren't pulling our boat?   

I was mainly targeting people who drive those vehicles just to show off and don't use the vehicles for what they are made for.  If trucks and SUVs are being used for their purpose on a weekly basis then I say drive them.  But you know many tasks can be done with a car.  Our Ford Taurus has a V6 engine and a trailer hitch on the back.  The Ford can haul a good size boat and lumber can be tied on to the roof. If you are only using the vehicle for 15 days out of a year couldn't you buy a small used compact car and save some money on gas?

Was this a highschool class?   I'd suggest you do a little more research my friend.

I'm a college boy now.  The main point of this paper is to get people to change their driving habits and stop wasting gas.

As a driver of a gas guzzling muscle car I just wanted to say

I have a friend that is into cars and doesn't give a damn about wasting gas.  Please answer this question AtomSmasher: What will you do when gas runs out?

I accelerate off the line so no one cuts in front of me and/or I don't get stopped at the next light.  I care about this world so I don't want to waste gas at a stop light or my time.  I can't be driving behind someone going slow when I could be using that time to save this precious world we live in.

I think this a common held belief with many Americans, "My time is most important and I don't care if I waste resources."

If everyone lived as we Americans do we would need five more Earths to support everyone.

(I know I'm off topic)

Below is a site that will tell you what your ecological footprint is.  An ecological footprint is a relative measure of an individual's ecological impact on the planet.

www.myfootprint.org

[missioncontrol]

Not a very college worthy paper... It came off more as a rant with nothing to support it

[missioncontrol]

        To save even more on gas we should not allow any senior citizens to drive.  Senior citizens make pointless trips and drive too slow, which creates traffic.  Traffic makes cars move slow and burns precious gas.  With all these rules traffic will be almost nonexistent because many people will be working on their punishment.  Traffic also raises gas prices so the more we can cut it the better. 

 

yeah old retired people who are now in their carefree years should only spend them at home with their pets right, they shouldn't bother going out picking up their medication or socializing with other senior citizens... instead the gas that the senior citizens use should be used by the high school kids who cruise up and down their towns main drag idling from traffic light to traffic light while they act like complete fools and tie up traffic for those who are actually going from point A to point B on Friday and Saturday nights.....

[boykster]

Frankly, IMHO, I understand the point you are trying to make -> that as a society we should be more conservation conscious rather than being so self-focused, but your essay reads like a middle school book report, not a college opinion/satire piece.  Sorry.....

[AtomSmasher]

I have a friend that is into cars and doesn't give a damn about wasting gas.  Please answer this question AtomSmasher: What will you do when gas runs out?

Are you saying you don't use any gas or you have a plan for when gas runs out?  If you don't drive a biodiesel or electric car, then you better be asking that question to yourself.  Besides, we won't be running out of gas for a couple hundred years and by the time we do they will have perfected another technology to power automobiles.  Hell, they just need to improve the battery because a decent electric engine is more then a match for any gas engine, and is far more efficient too (in terms of fuel consumed to power output).  There have been a number of electric cars made that have beat Ferrari's down the 1/8th mile (I don't think they are able to win in the 1/4 mile yet).  But that technology is still a ways off before its good enough for widespread use.

[AtomSmasher]

Not a very college worthy paper... It came off more as a rant with nothing to support it

Agreed.  Although it is fun to make wild claims with nothing to support them. In fact I do it all the time, but then I do understand the difference of arguing on the internet and writing a college paper.

[jbox]

Ruuuunnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[_) (V) (-)]

Ahhh, gas is for whimps & grandmas anyway.

Try a little Nos for a real thrill!
 

[jjd]

Was this a highschool class?   I'd suggest you do a little more research my friend.

I'm a college boy now.  The main point of this paper is to get people to change their driving habits and stop wasting gas.

 

I was hoping that was written by a high school freshman.  It reads like it was.

[ChadTower]

I always figured that when a person purchases an item, say a vehicle or 30 gallons of gas, they were free to use it as they wish within the limits of the law.

All the extra stuff that car manufactures have added like radios, air conditioning and even heated seats are completely unnecessary and their only purpose is to waste gas.

I hate it when my radio wastes gas.

[danny_galaga]

  There have been a number of electric cars made that have beat Ferrari's down the 1/8th mile (I don't think they are able to win in the 1/4 mile yet).  But that technology is still a ways off before its good enough for widespread use.

youre way behind the times!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pm6gD6r3-cw

others have been doing similar things for a few years now.

http://www.nedra.com/record_holders.html

 1/8 mile? hah!

[JONTHEBOMB]

Not a very college worthy paper... It came off more as a rant with nothing to support it

I was hoping that was written by a high school freshman.  It reads like it was.

I'll agree that I am not a great writer that's why I am a Computer Engineering major and not an English major.  Take in to account this is my first attempt at a satire.  This paper was inspired by Jonathan Swifts "A Modest Proposal" which is similar to mine in that he proposes an outrageous plan to take care of the poor.  My paper is a satire and not a reseach paper, my support is the examples I use for how people are wasting gas. 

yeah old retired people who are now in their carefree years should only spend them at home with their pets right, they shouldn't bother going out picking up their medication or socializing with other senior citizens... instead the gas that the senior citizens use should be used by the high school kids who cruise up and down their towns main drag idling from traffic light to traffic light while they act like complete fools and tie up traffic for those who are actually going from point A to point B on Friday and Saturday nights.....

I did have the idea of not allowing young people to drive because they are inexperienced and drive recklessly, but this didn't make it into the paper.

[SithMaster]

I hate it when my radio wastes gas.

 

thats why you should only use it during emergencies.

to prevent the gas from running out we should start burying bodies underground to speed up the creation of more gas.  like mass graves.

[Ed_McCarron]

All the extra stuff that car manufactures have added like radios, air conditioning and even heated seats are completely unnecessary and their only purpose is to waste gas.

I hate it when my radio wastes gas.

Technically... any additional electrical load creates additional mechanical load for the alternator, no?  Therefore, your radio does use gas.

How much?  Gas your radio wastes = the amount of times MrC agreed with the republicans.

[JONTHEBOMB]

Are you saying you don't use any gas or you have a plan for when gas runs out?  If you don't drive a biodiesel or electric car, then you better be asking that question to yourself.

I use mass transit, my bike or my own two legs to get where I need to go.  As for a plan when gas runs out I do not have one, but my first car will be one that runs on an alternative fuel that is renewable.

Besides, we won't be running out of gas for a couple hundred years and by the time we do they will have perfected another technology to power automobiles.  Hell, they just need to improve the battery because a decent electric engine is more then a match for any gas engine, and is far more efficient too (in terms of fuel consumed to power output).  There have been a number of electric cars made that have beat Ferrari's down the 1/8th mile (I don't think they are able to win in the 1/4 mile yet).  But that technology is still a ways off before its good enough for widespread use.

I have researched when oil is going to run out.  It's very possible we could be out of oil in 20 years.  I guarantee we will have exhausted the world supply of oil in 50 years. 

For the electric engine if the range was improved then it would be a good alternative.  But don't you enjoy the smell and sound of a gas engine as opposed to an electric engine?

[ChadTower]

Technically... any additional electrical load creates additional mechanical load for the alternator, no?  Therefore, your radio does use gas.

How much?  Gas your radio wastes = the amount of times MrC agreed with the republicans.

What does a car radio pull, anyway, in terms of amperage?  Think reasonable consumer level radio and default speakers, no amp.  Can't be that much.

[Ed_McCarron]

Minimal.  Moderate volume, 4 speakers?  An amp would be heavy.

Its a small number.

[ChadTower]

But we know that if we add one amp it adds many amps.

How circular.   

[AtomSmasher]

I use mass transit, my bike or my own two legs to get where I need to go.  As for a plan when gas runs out I do not have one, but my first car will be one that runs on an alternative fuel that is renewable.

Oh thats right, your still in college which means you can get away with not having a car.  Get back to me a few years after you graduate and have a real job, if you buy an alternative fuel vehicle then I will be impressed, but I doubt you'll still consider it worth the hassle at that point.

I have researched when oil is going to run out.  It's very possible we could be out of oil in 20 years.  I guarantee we will have exhausted the world supply of oil in 50 years. 

I did a little research on this a few years back and I guarantee we won't.  If I remember right they discovered a new oil pocket in China a few years back that they estimate could fuel the world for 100 years from just that one location.

For the electric engine if the range was improved then it would be a good alternative.  But don't you enjoy the smell and sound of a gas engine as opposed to an electric engine?

Both the range and the time it takes to recharge needs to be improved before it becomes a viable alternative.  Didn't they recently release an electric motorcycle (maybe it was just a single prototype) that ran on electricity, but they decided a silent motorcycle was too dangerous so they put a speaker on it to make it sound like a gas powered one.

[ChadTower]

I did a little research on this a few years back and I guarantee we won't.  If I remember right they discovered a new oil pocket in China a few years back that they estimate could fuel the world for 100 years from just that one location.

Or it could fuel China alone for 400.  And trust me, China would rather have the world dominance that comes with sitting on the last remaining oil reserve than make some cash now exporting oil.

The problem with oil isn't cost or availability.  It's geopolitics.

[AtomSmasher]

Or it could fuel China alone for 400.  And trust me, China would rather have the world dominance that comes with sitting on the last remaining oil reserve than make some cash now exporting oil.

The problem with oil isn't cost or availability.  It's geopolitics.

True, but he said "world supply of oil" and wasn't talking about geopolitics

[ChadTower]

True, but he said "world supply of oil" and wasn't talking about geopolitics

The two aren't really independent concepts.  The word geopolitics may as well actually mean "world supply of oil".

[AtomSmasher]

True, but he said "world supply of oil" and wasn't talking about geopolitics

The two aren't really independent concepts.  The word geopolitics may as well actually mean "world supply of oil".

I think we're having a conflict of definitions, when I say world supply I mean any oil left on the world, but I think you mean enough to supply the whole world.  Either way, by the time it gets close to a situation like that, gas prices will be so high that most people will already be driving alternative fuel cars.  If gas prices go over $3/gal again then I'll be first in line when they finally release a hybrid diesel car.  (for those who don't know, the current jetta diesel gets much better milage then the Prius, so the hybrid diesel they're supposedly working on should have insanely good gas milage).  Of couse I'll still keep my GTO for fun on the weekends, I just wouldn't use it for work anymore.

[ChadTower]

I think we're having a conflict of definitions, when I say world supply I mean any oil left on the world, but I think you mean enough to supply the whole world. 

Not really, I think we're saying the same thing.  Any oil left in the world drives geopolitics.  It is by far the single largest factor in foreign relations of most first world countries.  Who has it, how much do they have, and how we can get it from them.  There isn't anything even a close second.

[AtomSmasher]

Any oil left in the world drives geopolitics.  It is by far the single largest factor in foreign relations of most first world countries.  Who has it, how much do they have, and how we can get it from them.  There isn't anything even a close second.

Agreed, but if the world supply of oil is out, then oil will no longer be able to effect geopolitics.  When I say the world supply of oil is gone, that means there is no oil anywhere in the world.

edit*typo

[ChadTower]

Most of civilization will be gone by then.  When the oil starts to dwindle to that point it will cause wars like this planet hasn't seen yet.  The "alternate fuels" simply aren't going to arrive until they are required.

[FrizzleFried]

Awe lets give the guy a break.   He knows not what he writes. 

I really liked the whole "tie lumber to the the roof of the Taurus" thing...   

THAT was some funny shiznit!   

[danny_galaga]

Most of civilization will be gone by then.  When the oil starts to dwindle to that point it will cause wars like this planet hasn't seen yet.  The "alternate fuels" simply aren't going to arrive until they are required.

not if certain technologically advanced countries get their crap together and instead of pandering to certain lobby groups actually let technology do its thing rather than hinder it

in your scenario, it will be the countries most reliant on oil that will suddenly be in a mad max world. people in places like papua new guinea or mongolia already live like that. they wont perceive much difference 

[missioncontrol]

Not a very college worthy paper... It came off more as a rant with nothing to support it

I was hoping that was written by a high school freshman.  It reads like it was.

I'll agree that I am not a great writer that's why I am a Computer Engineering major and not an English major.  Take in to account this is my first attempt at a satire.  This paper was inspired by Jonathan Swifts "A Modest Proposal" which is similar to mine in that he proposes an outrageous plan to take care of the poor.  My paper is a satire and not a reseach paper, my support is the examples I use for how people are wasting gas. 

I meant nothing bad by this, I was just giving my constructive criticism. You will find yourself writing all kinds of papers for other classes, not just your English class, so it's better to take advantage of any feedback to make yourself a better writer. Some of your final projects in your computer classes will require a lot of technical writing, so even though you are not an English major you will still need to learn to write professionally in order to meet the requiments  of the project.

that said and done...

your introduction sentence "Gas prices are constantly rising with no end in sight." can probably be left out considering this satire is  about gas shortages rather than prices. The only other mention on prices are in the senior citizen section  "Traffic also raises gas prices so the more we can cut it the better." 

To save even more on gas we should not allow any senior citizens to drive.  Senior citizens make pointless trips and drive too slow, which creates traffic.  Traffic makes cars move slow and burns precious gas.  With all these rules traffic will be almost nonexistent because many people will be working on their punishment.  Traffic also raises gas prices so the more we can cut it the better.

The quoted text above the sentences I have in bold, really doesn't fit well with the paragraph I would actually omit the sentence "Traffic also raises gas prices so the more we can cut it the better." and use "With all these rules traffic will be almost nonexistent because many people will be working on their punishment." in a different paragraph perhaps the first sentence in the last paragraph.

You should also look at some of the words you use for example:

To save even more on gas...

I would change to:

To conserve even more on gas...

Part of writing papers in a college situation is proper word choice.

One thing that I do after writing a paper is to put it away for a few hours then go back and read through it again when you mind is clear. It is very important be very judgmental on yourself, you know exactly what you are writing, but can your audience read it and get the same feeling that you have?

[Vigo]

I agree with Mission. No matter what field you are in, professional writing is important. It might be hard to master the english language as well as Mission "Bobby Fisher of the Spelling Bee" Control, but its good to practice. I looked back at some of my old papers, and had to laugh at how poorly they were written. I am a Hospitality Tourism Major, but I'm sure over my college years, I have written over 200 pages of papers.

Its great to learn...'cause knowledge is power!!!





P.S. I got a good Chuckle out of your paper, Jon. Its a good conversation piece.

[boykster]

It might be hard to master the english language as well as Mission "Bobby Fisher of the Spelling Bee" Control, but its good to practice.

 

I JUST about burst a blood vessel......

[ChadTower]

not if certain technologically advanced countries get their crap together and instead of pandering to certain lobby groups actually let technology do its thing rather than hinder it

And do what?  The technologies the media talks about are not viable.  Hydrogen, the big one they love to talk about, is not viable in large scale economics.  They're barely developing anything else.

[SithMaster]

pendulum wars here we come.  itll be the 5th world war (its the one after the war on terror and then the war on wars) and itll be the war on fuel.  then we can have another war against the machines so we can start using people as batteries for our cars.  but it will mean  cars will be replaced by tanks becuase of the constant warfare going on.

but wait how can we wage a war without fuel to bring the armies together to fight?

why isnt hydrogen applicable?

Its great to learn...'cause knowledge is power!!!

Hey Virgo whats the deal here?  Why didnt you use "knowing is half the battle"?  it would be   a better choice because even though you know something doesnt mean its power.  Its the whole wisdom vs being smart thing.

[missioncontrol]

I really liked the whole "tie lumber to the the roof of the Taurus" thing...   

you know my wife used to have a Taurus Wagon And I tied the lumber I needed for projects to the luggage racks many of times... Hell I once even had enough lumber on it to build my 6'X12' back deck....

also back when I worked at StealCase I had tied large Executive type desks that I bought at the employee sales on top of that Taurus....

[jbox]

why isnt hydrogen applicable?

Because hydrogen is not a silver bullet like some people want it to be. Hydrogen is only viable if you also have solar, hydro, wind, geo, etc... power being used to create the fuel in the first place. And if battery technology improves by as little as 50% in the next couple of years there will be no point *at all* of worrying about hydrogen fuel cells since the *only* problem they actually solve is the range issue.

[AlanS17]

Well having electric cells doesn't solve the problem of fossil fuels. I think this was also touched on by SithMaster, though I don't feel like he clarifies it.

Where does the power come from to actually make the electric cells? For that matter, where does the power come from to make the cars? You need some sort of source energy - the kind of energy used to power electric companies and factories. Right now, that's primarily fossil fuels. Even though a lot of people freak out about the dangers of it, I really think atomic energy is a solution to a lot of our problems. Disposal can become an issue, but I think that's a much smaller task to tackle than depleting fossil fuels.

Of course solar, wind, hydro are all possibilities, but I think it would be difficult to generate the massive amounts of power using those technologies that you can get from atomic power. I think the biggest exception would be hydro power, but that's very dependent on how close you are to a large body of moving water.

[ChadTower]

To get hydrogen, you need to use fuel.  To  transport it, you need to use fuel.  When it sits in storage, you need to allow some evaporation for safety reasons.  So, from source to consumer, Hydrogen is only about a 20-25% proposition.

That's never going to fly in a large economy.

[danny_galaga]

To get hydrogen, you need to use fuel.  To  transport it, you need to use fuel.  When it sits in storage, you need to allow some evaporation for safety reasons.  So, from source to consumer, Hydrogen is only about a 20-25% proposition.

That's never going to fly in a large economy.

i fully agree with you. but hydrogen is not a 'new' technology. 'new' technologies to me implies technologies that havent been conceived yet. and since big business looks only at the bottom line at present and not what lies in the future, there isnt much incentive to develop 'new' technologies. i had a girlfriend who did a masters in busiess management who pointed out to me once that all economic models seem to be based on 'fishing in a river with infinite resources'. and that is how the oil situation is now. we are all of us behaving as if it is an infinite resource and so for the most part we plan the future with that erroneous concept.
  naturally i dont have an answer. i agree its not hydrogen. i dont know why people keep thinking it will change things. unless we develop a new technology to synthesise photosynthesis...

[SithMaster]

Maybe people think hydrogen is the next big thing because its the only thing that kinda resembles gasoline.  i remember reading (maybe 5 years ago havent kept up on the fuel ideas) that hydrogen fuel stations would be phased in or something like that for testing.

that and it was getting a lot of media coverage.

for general power generation i think the best method as of now is solar panels on rooftops of buildings.  problem is you have to get permission from your power supplier for the panels to be put up.

i agree atomic seems to be the best for massive scale generation but the waste will never be properly disposed.

maybe it will take another world war for a new form of renewable energy to be developed.  kind of like how in the second world war new innovations were made.  seems we always need a push.

why photosynthesis?  but you could have the right idea.  maybe manipulating some form of plant functions can be used.

[AlanS17]

unless we develop a new technology to synthesise photosynthesis...

We already have one. It's called solar power. 

[jbox]

Well having electric cells doesn't solve the problem of fossil fuels.

Huh, where did I say that? 

I said having better electric cells eliminates needing hydrogen cells, I didn't say it eliminated the problem of needing hydro, wind, solar and geo power. Not to mention the fact that many, many, many countries have plenty of coal, LPG, animal ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---'s and god knows what else to burn to make electricity, all of which reduces the importance of oil geopolitically even if it doesn't solve the (alleged) climate change problem. Actually, ironically the people who don't believe in human-causation should be more pro-electric because it means you finally cut off those anti-Christian, err, I mean "Pro-Freedom Allies" like Saudi Arabia. 

Seriously, apart from being emotionally important to chemisty and physics as "The First One", the only thing hydrogen really has going for it is the stupid amount of media coverage it gets, while companies developing (for example) new solar cells which increase the productivity by 200% or maybe reduce the cost by 40% by developing a process for printing cells using standard printer methodologies, don't get a mention because "solar technology is old news". 

Hydrogen is pushed so hard because if all of the "renewable energy" budget goes into hydrogen the same old energy companies will make a killing AT THE SAME TIME as being able to pretend they are fluffy bunnies who like to hug puppies and pick flowers. 

[AlanS17]

Well having electric cells doesn't solve the problem of fossil fuels.

Huh, where did I say that? 

I said having better electric cells eliminates needing hydrogen cells, I didn't say it eliminated the problem of needing hydro, wind, solar and geo power.

That's fine. Replace the word "electric" with the word "hydrogen". And I'm not just addressing oil. I'm addressing all fossil fuels as a non-renewable resource.

[ChadTower]

The best near term solution is BioDiesel.  That's where the politics prevent progress.

[AlanS17]

Are there ways to create biodiesel without recycling grease? That method doesn't lend itself well to mass-production.

[jbox]

Well, technically practically *anything* organic can be made into bio-diesel, but as you point out pretty much none of the suggested systems will ever break even. Bio-diesel, like hydrogen, is another technology that works best on the fringes (where it works *really* well), but ends up taking us backwards at the large scale because it doesn't solve any of the basic energy issues.

At the core of bio-diesel your "free" energy is in fact coming the sun, so you might as well go straight to solar and eliminate having *multiple* intermediate energy-losing transformations and focus your efforts on just improving that single transformation.

[danny_galaga]

unless we develop a new technology to synthesise photosynthesis...

We already have one. It's called solar power. 

without checking it carefully, photosynthesis is the process where by vegetative matter breaks down water into hydrogen and oxygen, to recombine with carbon. this happens at ambient temperature, which is quite impressive.

[ChadTower]

At the core of bio-diesel your "free" energy is in fact coming the sun, so you might as well go straight to solar and eliminate having *multiple* intermediate energy-losing transformations and focus your efforts on just improving that single transformation.

Can't currently be done on a large enough scale and there is almost zero effort in place to make it possible.

Plus Biodiesel would completely transform the US Midwest into incredibly valuable farming instead of the gov't subsidized inefficient farmland it is now.

[JONTHEBOMB]

Even though a lot of people freak out about the dangers of it, I really think atomic energy is a solution to a lot of our problems. Disposal can become an issue, but I think that's a much smaller task to tackle than depleting fossil fuels.

Nuclear waste stays radioactive for hundreds of thousands of years.  Unless we want fish with three eyes we should try to avoid nuclear energy.  We need to use more wind and solar power until we can no more.

At the core of bio-diesel your "free" energy is in fact coming the sun, so you might as well go straight to solar and eliminate having *multiple* intermediate energy-losing transformations and focus your efforts on just improving that single transformation.

Can't currently be done on a large enough scale and there is almost zero effort in place to make it possible.

Plus Biodiesel would completely transform the US Midwest into incredibly valuable farming instead of the gov't subsidized inefficient farmland it is now.

Instead of gasoline I think cars should use a combination of alternative resources.  Biodiesel could be used in states with warm climates.  The number of biodiesel cars could be limited by the government so fuel is not hard to come by.  Electric cars could be used in urban areas where people mainly travel short distances.  People who cannot use biodiesel or need a car to travel long distances could switch to ethanol or diesel fuels temporarily.  When electric car technology improves people using ethanol or diesel fuels could change to an electric car.

[jbox]

Maybe we can use blinky as the alternative fuel source? 
=>

[AlanS17]

Now you're using you head! 

[ChadTower]

Switch cars temporarily?  Not viable.  May as well tell them to get a balloon.

My friend has a turtle with two heads.  It seems just fine.

[shardian]

Hey everybody, chill out. I'll get Keanu Reeves on the phone, we'll play around with a big tub of water, a keyboard, and a lathe. Voila! Unlimited energy for everyone!


Oh, and about hydrogen. My senior project in college was to attempt to develop a small-scale, low cost hydrogen combustion engine. Not only is it not feasible, it is dangerous as hell. Could you imagine strapping a tank of hydrogen to every idiot on the road? Hehe, we had a backfire one time and me and my partner both almost pissed our respective pants.

It is possible to adapt current fuel injected cars to hydrogen fuel, but hydrogen burns hotter than gasoline. You have to add nitrogen to the fuel to lower the temperature of the combustion, otherwise your engine would be toast in no time. Development of hydrogen engines on a large, commercial scale will never happen. The only people keeping the hydrogen dream alive are people nieve to what it entails, or politicians trying to earn sympathetic votes.

[ChadTower]

Hydrogen engines are viable.  No one has disputed that.

Hydrogen replacing oil as automotive/home heating fuel is not viable, mostly because gathering and transporting hydrogen requires too much energy for it to be economically viable.  It is technologically feasible - it is not economically.

Hydrogen is actually safer than gasoline in terms of automotive accidents and the potential fuel related hazards.  Here is a good article explaining why.

[boykster]

AFAIK, most of the talk of hydrogen powered cars becoming mainstream is not using hydrogen as a source of combustion, but rather using it to produce electricity using fuel cell technology, then having electric cars that run off of these fuel cells.

 

[ChadTower]

You're one of the very first people I've heard, outside of an actual power grid genre discussion, mention that possibility.

EVERYONE I've talked to about hydrogen cars has assumed that the future is cars with tanks of Hydrogen fueling them.

[boykster]

That's interesting, I'm most familiar with GM's hydrogen projects including the AUTOnomy and the Hy-wire fuel cell powered vehicles.  not only do they not use internal combustion AT ALL, but they produce more electricity than they use, so the surplus can be transferred to storage arrays for other uses...

Oh, and this DOES include a hydrogen "fuel tank" on the vehicle...albeit in a bladder form rather than a rigid tank as we have now

IMHO, this is the future, not combustion.

http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/400_fcv/index.html

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hy-wire.htm

http://archive.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2002/paris/preview/gm-hywire/

[shardian]

EVERYONE I've talked to about hydrogen cars has assumed that the future is cars with tanks of Hydrogen fueling them.

That is because that is what all the auto companies and the government have been pursuing. Hydrogen combustion has about run its course now though.

Fuel Cell technology is still in its infancy. Once more people start investing in it, it will most likely become a viable source.

[shmokes]

I'm not sure that "EVERYONE" should be italicized or in caps.  I think people have been talking about hydrogen fuel cells and you have assumed they were talking about combustion when they actually weren't.  Fuel cells have been the darling of the media for years and I haven't heard squat about combustion.  All of the auto companies, from Honda and Toyota to GM and Ford have been making announcements about fuel cells and showing prototypes at the car shows.   Fuel cells have been all over the media.  You'd have to live in a cave to have missed the ongoing discussion.

[ChadTower]

I'm not sure that "EVERYONE" should be italicized or in caps.  I think people have been talking about hydrogen fuel cells and you have assumed they were talking about combustion when they actually weren't.  Fuel cells have been the darling of the media for years and I haven't heard squat about combustion.  All of the auto companies, from Honda and Toyota to GM and Ford have been making announcements about fuel cells and showing prototypes at the car shows.   Fuel cells have been all over the media.  You'd have to live in a cave to have missed the ongoing discussion.

How could you possibly know the people I've talked to?  And worse, try to make assumptions about what other people may or may not have said in conversations you didn't witness with people you didn't know?

[Vigo]

I'm not sure that "EVERYONE" should be italicized or in caps.  I think people have been talking about hydrogen fuel cells and you have assumed they were talking about combustion when they actually weren't.  Fuel cells have been the darling of the media for years and I haven't heard squat about combustion.  All of the auto companies, from Honda and Toyota to GM and Ford have been making announcements about fuel cells and showing prototypes at the car shows.   Fuel cells have been all over the media.  You'd have to live in a cave to have missed the ongoing discussion.

How could you possibly know the people I've talked to?  And worse, try to make assumptions about what other people may or may not have said in conversations you didn't witness with people you didn't know?

because you have been talking to people on the boards...and you have no idea what they were talking about because you never asked them to specify...

You don't know what EVERYONE was talking about...you assumed

shmokes didn't have to guess about your conversations, he just read this thread...

[ChadTower]

This isn't talking.  It's a text based message board.

Talking is verbal in my eyes.  And I have never once talked with anyone on this board about hydrogen cars.  I suppose that definition now includes such message boards but I don't usually consider them when I use the word talking.

[Vigo]

I hate when people play with semantics like that, its really childish...If you want to get literal about the word "talk", you should have at least looked the word up.
Talk Verb:
1) to communicate or exchange ideas, information, or knowledge. 
2) to consult or confer.
3) to spread rumor or gossip. 
4) to chatter. 
5) to employ speech. perform the act of speaking
6) to communicate ideas by means other than speech.
7) to make sounds imitative of speech.

Bottom line, what you discussed on this board is not null or void because of your alternate means of expression.

[ChadTower]

I actually did look up the word and conceded that it wasn't the best use of the word.  I went so far as to explain what I actually meant to say.  What more do you want, an apology for using the verb talk instead of specifically saying "people I have verbally spoken with in real life"?

[Vigo]

I just want you to know that shmokes does have a point, the people on the board will obviously think that you mean them in the EVERYBODY category you speak of, which really can be upsetting, because you didn't know what people on the board were talking about other than shardian, who has first hand experiance with hydrogen combustion engines. All in all, it was probably just a misconception by us since you didn't make clear your meaning, but yeah, if you only mean people you have verbally spoken with, you should say so if others on this board might think that you are talking down to them.

[More Cowbell]

Didn't anyone see the true purpose of Jondabobm's paper? He said it when he mentioned Swift's Modest Proposal. Jon want people to eat babies. Sick, Jonbomb.

[JONTHEBOMB]

More Cowbell,

Have you ever tasted baby?  Until you have I suggest you don't judge me as being sick.  By eating babies we can stop overpopulation of the world.



MMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmm baby