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Author Topic: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...  (Read 6110 times)

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Roughy

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Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« on: October 29, 2006, 11:51:02 pm »
I'm nearly complete with a 1-year long project (translation:  been thinking of this ever since I moved in to my house).  It's a basement remodel that...

Okay, here's the deal:

I've got a wall-mounted plasma.  It's an HD and I need to know what's the best method for running the HD cabling to the tv from the source (cable box / receiver).  I'm placing a box behind it so I can run my connections from the wall to the TV, etc. and keep everything relatively simple.

Additionally, I will have 2 more sets (1 behind the bar, 1 near a walk-out, but also viewable from the cabs) that will need to be able to receive their own HD signals from a splitter box--so, the same question again.

What I'm trying to avoid is shelling out a gazillion dollars on cables, but then again, I know how my luck goes.

I figure someone else around here has to have run into at least part of this issue.

Thanks!

MikeDeuce

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2006, 02:24:14 pm »
Can't be of much help with cable routing, but you may want to check out avsforum.com . There's some HT/gameroom building forums over there that might be useful.

And as for cables, have you checked out monoprice.com? Fairly popular with the avsforum folks, from what I can tell, and seem to review well. I've recently picked up an HDMI and HDMI->DVI cable from them and it arrived quickly, and the quality seems equally high as any overpriced monster-type cable.

A 4 meter HDMI cable was $130 from circuit city, and you can get 15ft from monoprice from $8 (28awg) to $25 (24awg).

HTH.
mike

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2006, 05:31:52 pm »
ebay is great place to find good hdmi cables cheap do you have both of these hookups, if not you will have to go hdmi to dvi or composite, i just hooked up 4 hdtv's thruout my home & the picture is awesome
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boykster

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2006, 01:57:06 am »
I have wired my entire house for component video + stereo audio using copper core (solid copper, not copper clad steel) belden RG59 coaxial cable.  To run component video, you will need 5 cables end to end.  I run my own bare cables then terminate with RCA connectors (then to wall plates) then build flexible patch cords for the actual hookup.

The "cheapest" way to do this (and still get very good results) is to buy pre-made coaxial cables (like for hooking up your cable box) of the correct length (you can get 50' + at places like Home depot or radioshack) and use F-> RCA adapters on them.  This will give you great results and not cost a ton of money.

If you want to go a bit more custom and possibly (but not guaranteed) better quality, the buy a spool of RG59/RG6 that has a solid copper core. The rest of the specs are not as important, as long as your runs are less than 100' or so.  Once you get to longer runs, you need to be more critical of cable specifications, but for shorter runs it's a non-issue.  Then buy some RCA connectors (designed for that cable) of either the crimp variety of the compression type.  DO NOT under any circumstances use the twist-on type.  They are total crap.  You will need to purchase or borrow the proper tooling to strip the cable and attach the connector, so there is a cost overhead here.  If you are going to be building a lot of cables, then this is a good way to go, but otherwise, I'd go with the pre-made coax cables and adapters.

If you're going HDMI/DVI etc, then that's a different story....


Roughy

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2006, 10:14:27 am »
Thanks for all the feedback; I've seen a few options that I'm looking at, and so far I've boiled it down to:

1)  HDMI or DVI to the Plasma
2)  Component to the 2 LCDs

I know I'm going to pay a little out the nose to get my lines to the Plasma--cheapest solution I've seen is around $250 for 35' for line, but even then, I'm unsure.

I've got to make a decision soon (as in now!), so I really appreciate all the help.

Boykster--are you able to provide any additional information as to what the different story is for HDMI / DVI?

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2006, 12:33:15 pm »
The price mark up on cables in rediculous.  I worked at bestbuy for a year and we got everything at cost.  Some of the monster cables that were 200 dollars rang up for us at 30 which was great.  Only thing I miss about that store.

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2006, 12:35:38 pm »

Cable crimping is a good skill to have... can save you a LOT of money and get you the ability to have far better setups than you can usually have with prefab cabling.

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2006, 01:28:23 pm »
"Some drink from the fountain of knowledge; I only gargle."

Roughy

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2006, 01:38:39 pm »

Cable crimping is a good skill to have... can save you a LOT of money and get you the ability to have far better setups than you can usually have with prefab cabling.

Thanks; I ran my entire house in Cat 6, did the cable, telephone and now with the basement, something like 32 speakers.

I'm all good there.

boykster

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2006, 07:12:50 pm »
good quality coax crimping tools are a must.  I buy/use all canare tooling and connectors.

The issue with DVI/HDMI is that there is no DIY solution for terminating the cables, there is a distinct signal issue related to lenght (that requires active repeaters to resolve) and pre-made cables are pretty expensive.  Add to that the HDMI/HDCP handshake issues and the lack of affordable matrix routing solutions (N# inputs routed to Y# outputs independantly) and you've got a VERY expensive project in front of you.

Monoprice.com has some inexpensive solutions for single runs of DVI/HDMI but they can't solve em all.

My personal experience is this:  For every zone other than your "critical viewing" room (ie theater in my case), the quality differential that an all digital path source (HDMI) vs an analog one (Y-Pb-Pr) is essentially moot.  I have an HDMI run for the projector in my house, but actually prefer the component cables to the HDMI. 

I use a 12x8 (12 in 8 out) component video + audio matrix switch to route any source to any display completely independantly.  I can start a movie in the theater, go to the bar to get a drink (and still watch), my wife can be upstairs watching something else and not be bothered and / or I can pause the movie and finish watching it later in the bedroom

 :cheers:

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2006, 05:29:12 am »
Got any pics of this cool setup?

Roughy

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2006, 07:23:42 am »
Not til it's done!

Just pushed thorough some core electrical last night and the trim is being finished today.  I'm going to try and get all my can lights hung today (but no electric to them just yet--that's not my forte), get the bar pushed into place and solidified and its minifridge in place.  With a little luck, those radiant heat mats under the tile will get turned on within the next week, too!

eh, you know, here's some WIP pics:

Basement
Bar

If I can get some painting done tonight, I may hang the 50" plasma and the 23" LCD...

(Keep in mind I have a wife and a 3-year old, so all of this looks pretty un-game-room-ish at the moment.  It's a process , not an event!)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2006, 09:06:33 am by Roughy »

boykster

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2006, 07:58:56 pm »
Got any pics of this cool setup?

Here are some pics of my setup(s)

1 - 42" Panasonic HD plasma in living room
2 - 42" Panasonic Ed plasma in master bedroom
3 - detail view of wiring termination on bedroom
4 - 17" Dell HD LCD in kitchen
5 - detail of inwall wire running (mouse shaped thing is IR target)
6 - 17" Dell HD LCD at bar in rec-room
7 - Theater, view looking toward front
8 - detail view of projector


boykster

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2006, 07:59:56 pm »
9 - theater, looking towards seating
10 - top of rack (in wall) -> top is extron 12x8 matrix switch, next is samson servo amp for seat rumblers, then panasonic RP-82 dvd player (mind the dust)  ;D
11 - rear view of extron matrix...each of the 20 connections (12 in 8 out) require 5 wire connections (Y-Pr-Pb and L R audio)
12 - the "old" 42" panasonic ED plasma (circa 2002) that needs service.  soon to be repaired and put back in service in the gym

Good luck with your project....fun stuff!!


cdbrown

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2006, 07:06:18 am »
 :o  That's an awesome setup.

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2006, 08:27:56 pm »
There is all the issues about copmponent video not supporting HDCP so will not be suitable for hd-dvd or blueray once they start restricting the resolution on non protected devices.

Since long reach hdmi is way to expensive at the moment, I would still stick with component to all the secondary TVs, but just plan the wiring route so you can pull something else thru in the future without having to make too many holes in the drywall. Use oversized holes thru the studs so that if needed an hdmi plug will fit and try to keep the runs as straight as possible. If you do need to pull stuff thru later then leaving another piece of wire inplace to pull it thru with is always a good idea, and I would also run 2 cat-5e/6's to the displays since you can use it for IR emitters at the moment, and at a later stage when tvs start to support IPTV or MJPEG cameras nativly use it for that too...

For a source of solid copper RG6 or 59 talk to CCTV camera guys, they use it by the kilometer when cabling places up, and often leave the last 10-15 meters on a roll because if it runs out when they are pulling it, it wastes time and the client pays for it anyway, so you can usually get it for the cost of a tray of beer.

Crimp F connectors on the end and use wall plates that are F to RCA socket, or else just have it come out a hole in a blank plate behind the screen and put an F to RCA plug adaptor on it. Heatshrink red/green/blue  over the F plug and adaptor to make it look pretty and professional. Consider pulling one more for composite video if needed since otherwise you will need to run VHS players and analog tv tuners thru a reciver to upconvert to component which is a bit of a waste of one. If you are running analog RF to the tvs, you will need the proper RG6 since the CCTV stuff doesnt work too well for RF.

Roughy

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2006, 11:52:09 pm »
I'm pretty well wired at the moment--some post birthday party "getting back to life" has slowed me down a bit, but I'm truly down to just minor things like finishing up the can lights and light electrical and adding another coat of paint and I'm done.

If you don't count building the unit behind the bar to hold things like booze and a/v equipment.

But I have another question that I'm getting sort of stumped on, and it falls under the same topic, sort of.


I've mounted a 23" LCD in a corner.  It's a corner where there is my "Server Closet" and rather than run a bunch of new outlets and such, I'd like to simply:

1. Cut hold in wall.
2. Cover hole with Grommet / Something that doesn't look awful
3. Run cables (power, RJ45, component, dvd) right through this hole.
4. Enjoy!

I'm just having a problem with #2 and wondering if anyone has seen a solution for something like this--it doesn't at all seem like it should be new or that random, but I've yet to find a solution at Home Depot, Menards or Lowe's.

Thanks in adavance!

boykster

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2006, 12:02:11 am »
for #2 look carefully at this pic:



That's a wiring grommit from Lowes installed (in white) as a wire passthru.  To keep the ring in place I used a single screw (with a small piece of wood behind the drywall as a backer) and a bit of double stick tape to keep the inner trim piece in place, but it looks nice and works great.


Roughy

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2006, 12:05:34 am »
Wow, that's perfect.

Someone had mentioned using the "desk grommet" solution, but I didn't buy it.  To be honest, it looks great there, and I don't think white, black, whichever would look bad for me.

Nicely done--and that mount looks like the same one I've got--Costco?

Thanks again!

boykster

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2006, 12:53:02 am »
The mount is an Omnimount CL 75/100...very similar to the cantilever mount at costco, but the LCD is only a 17" widescreen.

The white desk/wire grommit is a good way to go, and I found it at Lowe's.   If you don't have white walls, you could even get creative and buy some dye to dye the white grommit a color closer to your walls.  Make sure you mount the grommit / cut the hole about even with the mount.  I previously had it mounted lower (before remodel) and it looked goofy.  Having it line up with the mount not only hides it a bit, but having the wires parallel the mount it just looks more natural.

 :cheers:

boykster

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2006, 01:01:57 am »

Roughy

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2006, 11:37:33 pm »
This absolutely worked like a dream; just cut a 2" hole in the wall, got some cheap Home Depot wire cover and popped it in.

This, of course, after the guy in Electrical told me that they absolutely did NOT carry the wall grommet.  Then I pointed it out to him and he walked away. :-)

Thanks for the insight; great to have the tv mounted and see no wires.

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2006, 10:34:41 am »

This, of course, after the guy in Electrical told me that they absolutely did NOT carry the wall grommet.  Then I pointed it out to him and he walked away. :-)


Its like Radio Shack.

"You've got questions, we've got blank stares."

EDit:  Oh, right, useful.

I use leviton quickport stuff.  Faceplates come in all flavors, up to 6 (might be 8... I stick w/6) snap in passthroughs.  They've got passthoughs for everything from fiber to f-type.
But wasn't it fun to think you won the lottery, just for a second there???

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2006, 11:19:33 am »
I use leviton quickport stuff.  Faceplates come in all flavors, up to 6 (might be 8... I stick w/6) snap in passthroughs.  They've got passthoughs for everything from fiber to f-type.
Very pretty, but they don't carry HDMI or DVI solutions. That would probably be a deal-breaker for me. They're also a little pricey. Is there nowhere online where this sort of thing can be found for less?

I did really like the binding post modules, though.


boykster

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2006, 01:26:08 pm »
Very pretty, but they don't carry HDMI or DVI solutions. That would probably be a deal-breaker for me. They're also a little pricey. Is there nowhere online where this sort of thing can be found for less?

I did really like the binding post modules, though.

DVI / HDMI was never really designed for distance runs and distribution so it doesn't suprise me that there are few mainstream wallplates for them.  Leviton quickport is definately more expensive than generic keystone style ports, but they're worth it IMHO if you want a clean professional installation.

Here are some wallplate termination options for DVI/HDMI

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/DVI_wall-plate.html

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2006, 08:05:15 am »
Here are some wallplate termination options for DVI/HDMI

http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/DVI_wall-plate.html
Those are kind of ugly. They look too indutrial with the brushed metal. I found some plastic wall plates that I'll likely go with when the time arises.


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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2006, 12:57:11 pm »
there are some plastic decora style inserts if you scroll down


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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2006, 10:17:08 pm »
Problem is that current dv standards struggle with a 10 meter passive cable, and the active ones are usually a male to male pre-terminated arrangement which really makes it hard to pull thru.

By the time you chuck a cable on the back of a passthru like that, and add another passive cable on the outside, your up to serious money, with the potential for image degridation getting quite likly whereas a simple prettyed up hole in the wall will let you pull the active cable out and directly to the display and still be somewhat ok looking. Its not like a wall mounted screen or a ceiling mounted projector will be moved very often, and at the other end where you have the souce, thats usualy in a cabinet or rack or similar.

I still maintain that for now component is all you need, untill the image constraint token is used on blueray/hddvd (Unless you have some opressive cable/sat operator that uses it already) - the long run digital video solutions will become cheaper and better over the next few years, so an upgrade then is in order.


boykster

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Re: Game Room HDTV Wiring - Perhaps OT, but...
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2006, 12:13:33 am »
I agree 100% richms....

That's why for whole house video at HDTV resolutions, I use component video.  I do have an HDMI run in my theater, but I still prefer component video for most sources  :dunno