College textbooks

[SithMaster]

i start college soon and i looked over some of the books id need and compared them to the ones my sister had so i could just use them again.  well for my UNDERSTANDING INTERMEDIATE ALGEBRA book id need a 6th edition and i have the 5th.  is there a site anyone knows of to compare the 2?  i already know most revisions are cosmetic just to sell more books but i need to know if there are major changes.  thanks.

[AtomSmasher]

This page has whats new in the 6th edition http://departmentsplus.thomsonlearning.com/UpcomingEditions/list.do?listId=sp&website=dp

I've used previous versions of books before and the biggest problem is the page numbers often are different, so when the teacher says turn to page 45, you have to figure out what the correct page number is in your book.  Its a pain, but not horrible.

edit* also make sure to have a friend with the correct version of the book because they also often change the questions at the end of the chapters.  Make sure to always do the homework from the version of the book the class is using.

[SithMaster]

my friend is in the same class as me er taking the same class as me but i dont think hes physically in my class.  he does have the right edition though but not sure if hed mind me constantly looking at his.

i was hoping the questions would be the same otherwise i might get the new one.  i really dont want to but if i would have to keep looking at my friends it might not be convienent for either of us depending on work or class times and of course our normal lives.

i just cant stand how they keep making new editions when it hasnt been more than 2 years since the other came out.  thanks for the link.

edit just checked the books "new features" and it does seem to void any chance of me just looking at my friends book every so often.  i would need to see his everyday and during class.  it depends on my teacher but damn those publishers.

[ChadTower]

The problem I had with that was that most of the time the professor was the author of the textbook... so they'd intentionally make sure you NEEDED the newest version.

[Vigo]

This is my chance to laugh....

UW schools don't make us buy textbooks. Wheee! Library System!

ok....I just had to do that...sorry....

and 8 times out of ten, a professor who writes the textbook is an asshat. STAY AWAY FROM THEM....just to be safe.....(I have had one really good one tho)

[missioncontrol]

yeah different editions will have differend questions at the end of the chapters in the math books you may check out e-bay if you don't mind used books sometimes you can get lucky there....

[ChadTower]

and 8 times out of ten, a professor who writes the textbook is an asshat. STAY AWAY FROM THEM....just to be safe.....(I have had one really good one tho)

Uh, yeah, but they are also much better professors most of the time.  You're not there to like them, you're there to learn from a top mind in a given field.

[bleemus]

What I always did was wait about a week in the class, the first time I needed the book, I would go buy it.

Also, a really good site to go to is half.com.  It is e-bay without auctions, and you can search by ISBN.  You can usually get good prices there... school book stores are usually really expensive.

[jbox]

I always tell my students to wait a week too. There are some courses for which the textbook is an auxilary reference, and students with more determination then money can plan study time in the reserve collection on those rare occassions the textbook is referenced. Of course, there are some courses which are, as some people have said here, basically just the lecturer standing up the front saying "now read p35". In that case the students without the book are pretty much screwed.

As for revision numbers, that one is also hard to pin down. For popular texbooks the revision numbers may not have different material as the author just makes minor corrective updates before the previous batch sell out. For slow selling textbooks the revision numbers tend to be quite distinct because there needs to be enough updates to the material to convince the publisher to print the new batch.

In other words, go to the class and keep bugging your friend for a week or two. Then, buy them some beers at the bar to say thanks, and once they are really drunk switch your two copies.   Or you could just buy the new version once you establish what the expense-to-effort ratio is going to be.

[SithMaster]

considering im 18 and so is he that wouldnt work.

i figure i will wait and then get them if need be or get them now and not open the wrapping then return if need be.

[jbox]

considering im 18 and so is he that wouldnt work.

Huh?!? Oh, riggghhhhtttt.... Not that I'm a drinker myself, but that was certainly the silver lining of the Vietnam war in Australia. The voters figured that if you can be sent to a tropical hell-hole to die at 18, the least they coud do in return was let you drink away your sorrows (and hence the drinking age was henceforth lowered to 18).

Because of this, most every university bar I've been in never *ever* checks people's IDs, even though half the first-years are 17 and the occassional 16 y.o. grade-skipper. 

Um, sucks for you guys though. 

[shmokes]

Get the book.  Get it immediately.  RIGHT NOW!  It sucks cos it's math and math books cost an arm and a leg, but you can't afford to get behind in math -- not even one day.  There's no other class that this is more important in.  If you miss your homework today you won't understand what is being taught tomorrow and then it'll be twice as hard to do your homework tomorrow, so you might get even more behind and this ---Cleveland steamer--- just builds up.  Don't ---fudgesicle--- with math; it will win every time.

Get it from half.com, as someone already mentioned, and you'll save some scratch.  If you can find the teacher's edition pick that up stat.  This isn't cheating.  The only difference is that instead of having to flip to the back of the book to check answers to the odd questions, the answers to every question are printed right next to the question -- even and odd.  It's incredibly helpful and saves a lot of time not having to flip back and forth between the page you're working on and the back of the book.  You still have to show your work so it's not like the answer does you any good, aside from letting you know that you worked the problem out correctly.  Additioanally, the teacher's edition is usually much cheaper than the student version.

[ChadTower]

Plus, with the more expensive books, the bookstore will pull them off the shelves once the frenzy is over and won't be able to get them back easily.  Then you're screwed.

Look, dropping stupid money on textbooks is part of college.  Eat the cost.

[SithMaster]

I got the books and went to my first day of classes and it all seemed alright.  out of my first 3 teachers i only care for 1.  my western civ teacher tells us that we need a different book (after someone asked she didnt even tell us right away) which is nonsense.  if she planned on using her flippin book she should have had it on the booklist before hand.

then i started thinking about this first year seminar.  at first i thought it sounded fishy and now im convinced i dont need this.  it just tells you what to expect in college.  sounds like a way to get money and waste my time.  does anyone have any insight?  otherwise im going to try and drop it for a decent class ill need to take later on.

[NightGod]

Yeah, those first year seminars are usually completely bogus-alot of schools have it as a requirement, however, so check before you drop it.

On the plus side, it's usually an easy grade-generally "showing up" and "being able to sign your name" get you the equivalent of an A.

[SithMaster]

i asked my consuelor if i could drop it and add psych and it went through so yey.  but i had to pay 45 for the drop and add around 103 for a credit increase.  it around what id have to pay for another semester if id have kept the course and pushed back other classes for room for the filler class.

so far everything is good though.  class times are alright teachers are fine and i know some of the people from high school.  even the retards.

[shmokes]

Jesus, that's steep.  Dropping a class is free for me up until the end of the first week.  After that it costs $5.

[Vigo]

dropping a class is free for us for like 2 weeks...after that, if we drop with a teachers approval it's free...if there is no approval, we have to pay for the credits and get an incomplete (or an F if you piss off the teacher). I think...I haven't dropped after 2 weeks before, but thats how I'm told...Adding classes is free (unless you count for paying for the actual credits in your tuition).

[ChadTower]

Take the book to Kinko's, photocopy the pages you need...

Most copy places near a college or university will refuse.  It is illegal.

[SithMaster]

too many pages.

for my psych book we will be using it.  i didnt buy it since it came new without shrink wrap so i waited.

it wasnt just dropping a class it was adding one that had one more credit then mine.  but i does suck since i hadnt put the seminar on my schedule.
originally when i went to the counselors for my schedule i had it made already since i read the book they hand out and used their computers while i waited.  then she took me over to some other one since i had asked about fafsa.  well he added seminar and took out my psych.  i had figured i needed seminar and then on my first day of school i was told it was a joke class ie you dont learn anything.  that pissed me off since he removed a class i needed to take and placed in something i didnt.  i tried using that to avoid the fee but they were jerks and wouldnt waive it.  next semester i will not change my schedule that i make since they are incapable of just copying something over to the pc.

at least i dont need to waste a semester later on and pay more for tuition for just one class.  but since everyone takes that course they get way more cash out of students.  but i really should have caught that before school started.

and you know what the fricking booklet said before the 5th day of school no fees for course changing.  i told him that and he bs'd some answer.

i hate them.

[shmokes]

At the end of the semester, 0.25% of our final grade was based off that homework (that resulted in a complaint to the dean)!!!!

Wow, you complalined to the dean when your teacher based a quarter of one percent of your grade on homework assignments?  Tough crowd!   

[ChadTower]

Wow, you complalined to the dean when your teacher based a quarter of one percent of your grade on homework assignments?  Tough crowd!   

And I bet the Dean gave 0.25% of a crap about his complaint.

[NightGod]

and you know what the fricking booklet said before the 5th day of school no fees for course changing.  i told him that and he bs'd some answer.

i hate them.

Keep pushing them on it-if the damn booklet says you get five days, fight for your five days.

[ChadTower]

Wow, the two universities I went to would show up to your dorm room with Campus Police and evict you if your tuition fell behind.  They would throw you out of school, deny you food, retract credits.  They didn't give a damn about anything but the money...

[shmokes]

Chad is describing my university to a T.  I swear everyone in the administration, as well as everyone in the College of Computer Science and Information Systems is on a power trip (the Poli Sci people and French people are great, though).  They won't listen to reason.  Any time you have any issue with anything, it doesn't matter how whether it's the Universities fault or not.  If they can show the student who's in control of who they will put you in your place every chance they get.

[SithMaster]

So what your saying is to kill their families to show them who is in control?  I like it.

But i did spend some time explaining to them that they are the ones that f'd up and the admissions ---smurfette--- wouldnt see reason.  Just kept telling me she cant do anything about it and i still have to pay.  Whats better is when i was talking to a guy about whether i need to pay he charged me for the drop before i gave the go ahead.

To hell with them.  Whats interesting is that they really are out to get money.  Like my accounting teacher.  He says he came out of 34 years retirement because he found a new way to teach accounting.  Its patented too.  I understand that maybe he is rusty but really he has to get it together since he never stays on topic and seems to be waiting for his book to be published to sell to us for as he puts it "a nominal fee."  I think ill be okay since i took 2 years of accounting in high school with my favorite teacher (actually made us do work and dare i say learn).  He claims not many quizes and doesnt grade our homework so ill have to do well on the quizes but i should be fine hopefully.

but its sad how america in general is about money and ---smurfing--- over everyone to get it.  even if it leads to the decline our our nation and anarchy.

[ChadTower]

  Any time you have any issue with anything, it doesn't matter how whether it's the Universities fault or not.  If they can show the student who's in control of who they will put you in your place every chance they get.

So you're in the right place then.  Clearly you need that a couple times a week.

[shmokes]

We'll see who's laughing when I kill their families to show them who is in control . . .

[SithMaster]

I would be laughing and you wont actually kill them.  but if you surprise me and do i want pictures.  or better yet video.  and no editing i want uncut video showing everything.  thatd go right on my psp.

but you wont your just mocking me.  lame, very lame.  you say that and dont mean it and it makes me hurt inside........

but if you do make it kinda like saw.  you know use a mask or a puppet use elmo.  and dont just copy them make it original.  new methods and what not.  and make it so that when they think they survived they die.

hey you guys hear about this car flying into a second story of a home?  and just from a little dirt ramp.

[shmokes]

. . . interesting.

[ChadTower]

even if it leads to the decline our our nation and anarchy.

Our anarchy is not in decline.

[SithMaster]

o typo i wrote our twice.  wait what do you mean by "our"?

lol.

hey how come the spaces between the periods are so big? lets see how mine are ......................no small spaces.  hmmmmm.........

well anyway point is there really isnt anything i can do about the fee.

[boykster]

o typo i wrote our twice.  wait what do you mean by "our"?

lol.

hey how come the spaces between the periods are so big? lets see how mine are ......................no small spaces.  hmmmmm.........

well anyway point is there really isnt anything i can do about the fee.

I would suggest you drop all of your classes and take some remedial english and composition classes.  Reading your posts makes my brain hurt.

Complaining about the cost of texts and classes in college is lame.  College is a place for education, not ALL education happens in the classroom however.  Bureaucracy is a fact of life and business, and you will have to deal with it no matter what field you enter into.  Learning to adapt to professor's style's and idosyncracies (and egomaniac is an idiosyncracy) is education.

Whining over $60 is pointless....

[shmokes]

The spaces between my periods are put there deliberately.  An elipses is three periods separated by spaces.  I got marked down on a paper last year for writing it:  ...

I was pissed and I looked it up.  The professor was right (though it was a history professor, not an English professor.  He could have just mentioned it without docking points, but I digress . . .)

I don't agree with the above poster.  College texts are a racket.  You should complain as much as possible.  You should boycott your bookstore and get your books online.  You should buy international editions of books wherever possible.  You should ask professors if older editions of a book will do.  You should complain about and fight tuition hikes.  You should complain about shady scholarship practices.  When the registrar wants to charge you a drop fee when the drop should be free you should not leave until they remove the fee or satisfy you that the fee is legitimate.  I don't know if boykster is rich, or if his parents paid for all his schooling, but even if you've got money you shouldn't just willingly drop your pants for people who want to take advantage of you.

[ChadTower]

No.

College texts for things like logic and politicial science are useless and a racket.  They never get opened once the homework is done because there is little in them to begin with.

I still own most of my college textbooks and refer to them fairly regularly in the course of my professional life.  They're technical references.  Engineering bibles.  And they were worth every penny I paid for them (often up to $85-90 a pop).

[shmokes]

Chad, I don't think you really read my last post.  I never suggested he not get the books or that textbooks are a racket because they aren't usefull.  Jesus, surely you saw up above when I told him that he shouldn't even consider waiting to get his math book.

I merely said he shouldn't pay what the bookstore is charging for them.  He should buy online.  He should ask his professor if an earlier version will do, since publishers of textbooks regularly release revised editions that aren't changed from the previous edition in any important or substantial way, yet the new edition costs 600% more than the previous edition.  I've had lots of professors say that a previous edition will be perfectly fine.  If it's not fine, asking certainly didn't do any harm.

And the textbook industry is a racket.  As I said, publishers regularly release superfluous new editions.  But they also give gifts and other incentives to professors to stop using old editions immediately every time a new edition comes out regardless of how useless the changes are.  It works very much like the pharmeceutical industry, where doctors will deliberately prescribe a name brands (and mark "no generic" on the script) when they know a generic exists, because of the perks they get from the drug companies.

By the way, $85-90 a pop is nothing anymore.  My highest so far was $159 for one book.  A $450 semester for books is not uncommon and I've known people get up near $700 for one semester.

[ChadTower]

Chad, I don't think you really read my last post. 

I did, but I didn't read this one.

[shmokes]

That's gonna keep me up nights.  Way to stick it to me!

[boykster]

I never suggested he not get the books or that textbooks are a racket

And the textbook industry is a racket. 

You'll make a GREAT litigator....

[shmokes]

Heh, and judging by the fact that you cut the first sentence in half to entirely change its meaning I'd guess you'd make a great politician.

[boykster]

It works very much like the pharmeceutical industry, where doctors will deliberately prescribe a name brands (and mark "no generic" on the script) when they know a generic exists, because of the perks they get from the drug companies.

This statement is blatantly false.  Sure there are dishonest physicians, just like there are dishonest lawyers, police officers, bankers, etc.  But to paint broad strokes like that is very misleading. 

I'll agree, in MANY cases, generics are just as viable as name-brand pharmaceuticals, and you'd be suprised how many physicians are actually pushing to prescribe generics.  However, it is no longer legal for pharmaceutical companies to provide direct perks to physicians or their practices in order to coerce them into offering there products.  Additionally, there are many cases where a generic pharmaceutical may have the same active ingredient and therapeutic value, but may either be not as effective (lower %purity, less active ingredient, different delivery system) OR may have non-active ingredients that can cause adverse effects and/or allergic reactions.

[shmokes]

I won't argue with any of that.  I'm no doctor.   

[SithMaster]

I would suggest you drop all of your classes and take some remedial english and composition classes.  Reading your posts makes my brain hurt.

Learning to adapt to professor's style's and idosyncracies (and egomaniac is an idiosyncracy) is education.

Whining over $60 is pointless....

Or maybe your brain hurts because this is above your level of thinking.  notice it was a statement and not a question.  That isnt learning.  You go to college to learn the material of study not to conform to someone's method of teaching.  You do have to accept how they teach but that isnt why you go to college.

Um whining about money?  I sad it sucks and theres nothing i can do about it.  If it was whining id be in every topic and complaining about it. at least shmokes and chad contribute to this topic.

and you used the wrong form of there in your last statement.  it is their.

and college books are like shmokes said a ratcher.  like for math books there is no reason to change the questions being used other than to force students and tachers to get new editions.  your going to learn the material anyway it doesnt matter if one question asks what 2x-3=13 or if it asks 3x-2=11 your going to learn how to find the value of the variable.

[boykster]

I would suggest you drop all of your classes and take some remedial english and composition classes.  Reading your posts makes my brain hurt.

Learning to adapt to professor's style's and idosyncracies (and egomaniac is an idiosyncracy) is education.

Whining over $60 is pointless....

Or maybe your brain hurts because this is above your level of thinking.  notice it was a statement and not a question.  That isnt learning.  You go to college to learn the material of study not to conform to someone's method of teaching.  You do have to accept how they teach but that isnt why you go to college.

Um whining about money?  I sad it sucks and theres nothing i can do about it.  If it was whining id be in every topic and complaining about it. at least shmokes and chad contribute to this topic.

and you used the wrong form of there in your last statement.  it is their.

and college books are like shmokes said a ratcher.  like for math books there is no reason to change the questions being used other than to force students and tachers to get new editions.  your going to learn the material anyway it doesnt matter if one question asks what 2x-3=13 or if it asks 3x-2=11 your going to learn how to find the value of the variable.

I strongly disagree with every one of your assertions here, but you are entitled to your opinions.  College is not simply about learning the material of study, but rather to learn HOW to think in different ways.  Sure, the material is part of the equation, but it's just one part of it.

Mathematics is actually a fairly dynamic field, equations don't change necessarily, but the application of such equations do.  Additionally, new theorems are being proven yearly, necessitating new editions.  If you're in college to learn multiplication, additon, subraction, etc in math, then you're doing great! 

I realize that I used there instead of their, simple typo mistake, but you used "ratcher" rather than "racket" so we're even on that one

my point is that years from now, when you are benfiting from your "real" education rather than the BS material you learn in class, that the "extra" $60 you paid for some class or w/e will be way off your radar.  Enjoy college and get as much out of it as you can.

[boykster]

I won't argue with any of that.  I'm no doctor.   

Me neither, but I do work for the "evil empire" that is the pharmaceutical industry, and from the inside I've seen a MAJOR change in how the business side of this industry is run.  I'm not defending the industry, but the way we do business has had an overhaul. 

I don't fundamentally disagree with you about the textbooks either, was just pointing out a perceived inconsistancy in your statements.

[SithMaster]

i used my example because my math course is algebra and that is a problem we had.  i will become more difficult im sure.

i dont take a teacher's style of teaching to mean a new of thinking.  like my accounting teacher for an example he constantly claims that that accounting is a language that we must learn.  i understand that ive had two years of the stuff in high school and im sure others havent but it isnt doing anyone any good not going into detail about it.  also he says he is there to teach us a new method of learning accounting.  i learned one way but im willing to learn another however if this is the case he should have started with his book or have waited till it was published.  now hes trying to get us to buy his book or books halfway through the semester when they are published.

also he gives us homework but doesnt check all of it and goes into the advanced material before starting chapter one.  i understand i have to read outside of class and i do but if he isnt going over the material the class has read then we have to jump around the book which means hes giving us false info when he tells us to read any chapter if he doesnt go over it.

i agree that i should learn new ways of thinking.

math is dynamic when it is being applied to things yes but if we are learning how to solve an equation like the example i showed which is simple then they dont need to change it.  accountants dont need trig or calc so i took algebra.  if i had needed something more advanced id have taken it and maybe i should have so i could go into programming or something but id rather concentrate on one subject.  alright ill go with the new theories but that doesnt mean needing to change little things to sell more books.  that i think we can all agree on that many publishers do this to prevent people from buying and sellig used books.

yes i spelled it wrong.  but i only pointed out your misspelling cause you knocked my grammar.  i really dont mind improper english online just when it gets beyond a certain point.  what i wrote that made you lash out at me is just me being me.  i write stupid things sometimes.  not because im stupid, though you'd disagree im sure, but because i think its funny and its not at anyone expense.

[boykster]

i used my example because my math course is algebra and that is a problem we had.  i will become more difficult im sure.

i dont take a teacher's style of teaching to mean a new of thinking.  like my accounting teacher for an example he constantly claims that that accounting is a language that we must learn.  i understand that ive had two years of the stuff in high school and im sure others havent but it isnt doing anyone any good not going into detail about it.  also he says he is there to teach us a new method of learning accounting.  i learned one way but im willing to learn another however if this is the case he should have started with his book or have waited till it was published.  now hes trying to get us to buy his book or books halfway through the semester when they are published.

also he gives us homework but doesnt check all of it and goes into the advanced material before starting chapter one.  i understand i have to read outside of class and i do but if he isnt going over the material the class has read then we have to jump around the book which means hes giving us false info when he tells us to read any chapter if he doesnt go over it.

i agree that i should learn new ways of thinking.

math is dynamic when it is being applied to things yes but if we are learning how to solve an equation like the example i showed which is simple then they dont need to change it.  accountants dont need trig or calc so i took algebra.  if i had needed something more advanced id have taken it and maybe i should have so i could go into programming or something but id rather concentrate on one subject.  alright ill go with the new theories but that doesnt mean needing to change little things to sell more books.  that i think we can all agree on that many publishers do this to prevent people from buying and sellig used books.

yes i spelled it wrong.  but i only pointed out your misspelling cause you knocked my grammar.  i really dont mind improper english online just when it gets beyond a certain point.  what i wrote that made you lash out at me is just me being me.  i write stupid things sometimes.  not because im stupid, though you'd disagree im sure, but because i think its funny and its not at anyone expense.

I can count on 1 hand, the number of people that I know that actually USE the book learned information that they learned in college in the "real" world.  I sure as hell don't.  I studied biochemistry, but I write software for living 

You'll find that life doesn't always fit into neat little boxes and assignments.  Consider a professor who doesn't spoon feed you what/when/how as someone pushing YOU to learn how to learn and think, not as someone giving you false information.  Trust me on this one, you may not see it now but you will: what you LEARN now at university is not just the course materials, but how to deal with life, the universe, and everything.

I know you're looking for a cut and dry approach.  What do I do here, how does that measure up, how do I rate, but frankly, things are that simple.  Life isn't JUST about what specifics you know, its how you apply them to real world situations.

As someone who has hired/fired my share of employees, I'm looking for candidates who know how to think, not candidates that can regurgitate information from a book.  I want someone that doesn't back away from a challenge, but one that embraces it, chews it up, and spits it right back at me.

THAT's what you go to college for.

[ChadTower]

I majored in Computer Science and write software for a living.  Count me as someone who uses the book learned information they learned in college.

[shmokes]

I'm majoring in French and Policital Science.  I plan to live an work in France for at least a few years so that info will obviously be useful on a daily basis.  Policital Science is a bit harder to make a case for.

[ChadTower]

Use your book learned PoliSci skills to make a case for it.

[shmokes]

That wasn't the Founding Fathers' original intent.

[ChadTower]

Founding Fathers of what?  BYOAC?

saint, what was your intent?

[boykster]

I majored in Computer Science and write software for a living.  Count me as someone who uses the book learned information they learned in college.

So you're telling me, that on a daily basis, you refer back to fundamentals of software development as you sit down to debug code or develop new algorithms?  My point is not that the information you may learn from the class is not potentially relevant, but rather it is more of a foundation to build upon, rather than the entire structure of your education.

Maybe its the industry that I work in

[ChadTower]

So you're telling me, that on a daily basis, you refer back to fundamentals of software development as you sit down to debug code or develop new algorithms?  My point is not that the information you may learn from the class is not potentially relevant, but rather it is more of a foundation to build upon, rather than the entire structure of your education.

Maybe its the industry that I work in

Yes, I do.  Without that foundation none of the newer technology would be understandable.  And rarely do people come up with new algorithms... they mostly apply known algorithms to new places.

[SithMaster]

isnt programming all about structure?

but i think it depends on what you do.  for me im going for accounting and it matters how we learn the basics because we use them everyday.

[boykster]

Yes, I do.  Without that foundation none of the newer technology would be understandable.  And rarely do people come up with new algorithms... they mostly apply known algorithms to new places.

So, basically, you've never written anything novel or original in your programming career.  I'm actually GLAD I never too any programming courses, I'm not tied down by the rigid nature of the development doctrine.

 

[ChadTower]

So, basically, you've never written anything novel or original in your programming career.  I'm actually GLAD I never too any programming courses, I'm not tied down by the rigid nature of the development doctrine.

Novel, yes, I've done a lot of unusual things.  Anything groundbreaking or completely new?  No.  Few people have.  That's not how industry works.  Most people spend their time writing software that fulfill the specific requirements given to us by someone else in a timeframe given to us by someone else.