OMFG I have a Defender prototype!

[Q*Bert_OP]

Yes, it's true! I have the fourth Defender prototype cabinet discovered, with full color, decal side art! Jarvis himself said that there were only 4 or 5 of these made...

No, it dosen't work...yet...and no, it's not for sale!


Now for the pics... 

[Santoro]

That's super-cool, how do you know?

[deadkenndys1105]

If it is the real deal how did you come by this?

[Q*Bert_OP]

Santoro: http://www.andysarcade.net/personal/defproto/

deadkennedys1105: see above...I bought it from someone who was moving...the bought it from someone's garage sale...

[hutch1980]

That's very very cool. You should definitly post when you get it working. You should also get the side art scanned so it can be vectorized for preservation.

Do you know the revision # of the board set?

Anyways, great find. 

[Q*Bert_OP]

That's very very cool. You should definitly post when you get it working. You should also get the side art scanned so it can be vectorized for preservation.

Good idea, but I don't want anyone else to go paint their defender black, and put my scanned-in artwork on, saying that they have a proto that really isn't a proto...

[hutch1980]

That's very very cool. You should definitly post when you get it working. You should also get the side art scanned so it can be vectorized for preservation.

Good idea, but I don't want anyone else to go paint their defender black, and put my scanned-in artwork on, saying that they have a proto that really isn't a proto...

hmm, didn't think about that. disregard that idea, hehe. Maybe just archive it for your self for your own restoration. I could see some niks and scratches that could use some touching up.

Do you know if the boardset is any different from the original standard defender?

[Q*Bert_OP]

AFAIK, it's the same as the "early version" production board set...

[CheffoJeffo]

Nice score ... 

Cheers.

[Havok]

Ummm, so it's in your garage, right?

Where do you live again?

 

Great score! Please take a nice hi-res pic of the sideart so it can be vectorized on localarcade (the American version, not the Arabic one.. )

[mahuti]

Good idea, but I don't want anyone else to go paint their defender black, and put my scanned-in artwork on, saying that they have a proto that really isn't a proto...

gotta read my man.

[Kevin Mullins]

Awesome find.....  I was reading about you and this cab on RGVAC.
I'd be curious as to the differences other than the obvious sideart and such.
(which they probably changed due to production cost or something)

[ClubNinja]

Comparing with the andysarcade link above, it looks like you've got the wrong bezel and missing front artwork.  Marquee seems right, though.

[Kevin Mullins]

Ah .... indeed that may be true..... it looks as if you may actually have an early production model and not a prototype.

Note the blue graphics on the bezel.



And one of my faves because I have a Hyperball.
Note the Defenders have no front artwork.



And I didn't notice earlier, but your cab has a placard on the front which looks like it has been "in service". (used on a route or in an arcade maybe)

[Stingray]

Whether a it's true proto or an early production model it's still one hell of a find! Congrats!

-S

[Kevin Mullins]

No doubt ..... not denying that one bit !   

[boykster]

so when are you gonna MAME it? 

Just kidding....NICE find, congrats!

[Q*Bert_OP]

And y'all wouldn't believe the price I payed for it... $60

[RetroJames]

Awesome find! Just posted a news item in RB - also sent a PM for more info!


http://retroblast.com/newsitem.php?cid=1800

[Q*Bert_OP]

Awesome find! Just posted a news item in RB - also sent a PM for more info!


http://retroblast.com/newsitem.php?cid=1800

YGPM

[pointdablame]

And y'all wouldn't believe the price I payed for it... $60

oh you just suck!!!!


Awesome find.

[Kevin Mullins]

... $60

That's friggin' insane !!   

[Level42]

Ow my God !!!!

This: http://www.andysarcade.net/personal/defproto/ machine was actualy AROUND THE CORNER from me (well....a mere 130 km....) and I missed it !!!!

Now it has been illegaly exported from Holland to the UK, you thieves

Boohoo !! 

Q*bert_24/7: congrats and make it work !!!

[Boz]

Someone should consider updating the "history.dat" if it's that important.

EDIT: I guess if this is something one would put in the history.dat at all.

[AC.]

Very cool.  get a bunch of pics up from the side artwork.

[Orclord]

"In addition to the two hardware revisions there are three software revisions, namely Red, Green and Blue label ROMs with Red label ROMs being the latest revision. Red and Green label ROM sets have 11 EPROMs, it is normal for ROM number 5 to be missing. Blue label ROM sets have 10 EPROMs, it is normal for EPROMs 4 and 5 to be missing."

If it is an early version and it's the Blue label version, this is undumped and not in Mame.

Interesting in this maybe the 2nd Blue label that has turned up within 3 weeks

[AE35]

That sure looks like Jack Kirby's hand on the side art!?!

[mahuti]

Yeah, looks like, cuz the artist was swiping from him.

[Kevin Mullins]

There are some tid bits about that on Andy's page :
http://www.andysarcade.net/personal/defproto/

Looks like Constantino Mitchell, who did alot of artwork for Williams used some art from Jack Kirby's Fantastic Four issue #56. (1966)
For that matter... a bunch of it was from other places including the obvious Star Wars stuff.

[DrewKaree]

That's very very cool. You should definitly post when you get it working. You should also get the side art scanned so it can be vectorized for preservation.

Good idea, but I don't want anyone else to go paint their defender black, and put my scanned-in artwork on, saying that they have a proto that really isn't a proto...

Well, since nobody else is gonna say it, I might as well be the hated one.  What, like I'm gonna piss him off and make him LESS likely to do it?

I think you're being *edit* a not-so-nice person *edit* by not taking a few high res pics so it can be vectorized. You don't want to devalue the cab you paid $60 for by sharing the artwork? 

With only 4 machines around, the artwork will eventually be lost forever.  It's flat out ridiculous not to try to get a decent version of it out there.  Do you plan on selling it for $982,645,836 in 50 years or something?  This is like women that like big fricken diamonds.  The more expensive the better.  Why?  They'll say because it's worth more, but that's ridiculous, they're never going to sell it, so it's worthless, value is irrelevant at that point.

There's ways to make it so that the scanned artwork could or would be readily identifiable as a scan if you aren't one of the owners of a prototype, and simply keep the original amongst those owners, but to act as if you're upholding some noble idea because you got the steal of a lifetime and are intimating that your machine is somehow going to be devalued by knockoffs is retarded.  Funniest scenario I can see is you somehow ruining your artwork yourself, and you're unable to fix the problem because you didn't wanna "spoil" whatever market you think there is.  Seems clear that anyone with an idea of the rarity of that machine is also going to be aware of what they're looking at and how to tell if it's a knockoff too.

Luckily for you, I didn't get it, because I'd have worked with whoever could help me scan the artwork in so I could share it with the community.  Mebbe see if you can get someone to help you trademark that artwork....you know....to "protect" it

[vader]

Ditto to what Drew said....


btw....isn't this community about sharing ?  If anything, scan it and have Saint host it here, but not available for download so it can at least be preserved if the need arrive and  original owners need it

[Tiger-Heli]

Ditto to what Drew said....


btw....isn't this community about sharing ?  If anything, scan it and have Saint host it here, but not available for download so it can at least be preserved if the need arrive and  original owners need it

Or I imagine you could get Mahuti to save the file at localarcade without permitting it to be downloaded -

Just a thought.

[RayB]

Actually, can I offer a more realistic perspective?
He doesn't owe anyone ANYTHING. (Well, except maybe to his bank and creditors, but you get the point...)

[vader]

Actually, can I offer a more realistic perspective?
He doesn't owe anyone ANYTHING. (Well, except maybe to his bank and creditors, but you get the point...)

Ray,

Were not asking for him to give us anything ( at least me ), just asking to take steps to preserve it so it's not lost forever.  Letting a trusted known database just have it for safekeeping and not distrubution isn't asking alot.

[missioncontrol]

Drew's right.... 

damn that was hard to say.....

[versapak]

Drew's right.... 

damn that was hard to say.....

Yeah...

What he said...

About what the other guy said...

[DrewKaree]

Actually, can I offer a more realistic perspective?
He doesn't owe anyone ANYTHING. (Well, except maybe to his bank and creditors, but you get the point...)

You're right, he doesn't owe anyone ANYTHING.  Kind of makes him a hypocrite though, to come to a community that's about sharing (and to some extent, preserving) information, show off the steal he found, and tell everyone "nah, I'ma keep this all to myself because I happened to luck into a pretty good find.  Eff all youse guys".  It's almost like he doesn't plan on ever asking a question around here, since that would be asking someone who has something HE doesn't have and needs to share it with him...y'know....because he's got a big black box with some artwork

I'm going to go out on a limb, RayB, and state that I know for a fact that you understand the concept of preserving something that has SUCH limited numbers to draw information from, and that you simply hadn't thought about why it might be important to preserve something and instead offer a solution or agreement with some of the solutions offered around here to do so.

Much like he's assuming anyone with a hard-on for Defender is gonna whip himself up a box and start selling copies of his cab, thereby making it worth $1.27, you're assuming that we believe he OWES us something, when it's just been stated that it'd be nice to preserve something that seems rather rare.

Or am I wrong and you really DON'T understand why it'd be a good thing to preserve this in some fashion?

[Havok]

Bah!

What 's the big deal about the art anyways? It's been demonstrated that it's all a ripoff from Marvel comics or Star Wars anyways...

I'm thinking with what's out there already, if someone was so inclined, that they could easily create a ripoff cab if they really wanted to anyways. (You may even have one.     )

So, with that said - take some high res pics and preserve that sucker. It's not like you're going to become a millionare by owning this thing.

Damn teenagers these days...

[arcadefever]

  wowwwwww that great !!! i didnt even know about defender prototype ....
congratulation on that 

[Boz]

Hey Peale?  What'dya do to the original post? Did you remove the hyperlink that allows us to click on a bigger version of the images?

Just curious.

[SirPeale]

Hey Peale?  What'dya do to the original post? Did you remove the hyperlink that allows us to click on a bigger version of the images?

It was never hyperlinked.  I just put in code that made the image display slightly smaller.  It was stretching the page out a lot.

It still loads full size, just displays smaller.  If you want to see it full, right click on it and select 'view image' (in Firefox).  Forget how to do it in IE.

[Stingray]

it'd be nice to preserve something that seems rather rare.

Agreed. Not because anyone "owes" anything to anyone else. Just because it would be the cool thing to do.

-S

[RetroJames]

This is a great question, regarding whether or not to reproduce the artwork. I made this the topic of this week's RB poll as well as a follow-up news item.

Should Rare Defender Artwork be Reproduced? - http://retroblast.com/newsitem.php?cid=1820

[Ravage]

Well....

Just so everyone knows, I own one of the 4 - in particular the one in the article on Andys arcade web site.

I have in the past produced many pieces of vector art that have been placed on localarcade and was a regular on the artwork forum here for a while, but not really getting enough time to contribute nowadays.

but the question wether to repro or not this artwork is questionable, especially as I am trying to restore another williams proto at the moment - see http://www.retrokade.com/cabs/predators.htm and I would jump if I could get a scan of the sideart and/or other art if I could!

So I suppose I'm coming down firmly on the available for owners who can prove they have a proto cab camp. Archer Maclean has asked me many times to be able to scan it and I've put him off as I think its wrong.

As for scanning it for prosperity, I have already done that - its just not public domain.

but of course, if this 4th cab wanted the front art... then we'd be in a pickle

And it wasnt illegally taken out of the country. customs thought i was mad when i showed them it in the van at the ferry port. it cost be near on

[RayB]

As for scanning it for prosperity, I have already done that - its just not public domain.

There we go. If there are only 4 or 5 of these protos out there and the owners of those machines want to collaborate to get each other scans, that's fine and dandy... I just don't see why the peanut gallery here feels they should have access to art for a machine they will never own.

[Stingray]

I just don't see why the peanut gallery here feels they should have access to art for a machine they will never own.

Ray I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but I'm going to say it anyway. This is Build Your Own Arcade Controls... a lot of people here build custom arcade machines. Many of these people also use custom or unusual artwork on those machines. We'd like to have access to it because we'd like to use it on our projects.

I really don't see how this is any different from scanning and vectorizing the artwork from any other machine. The only difference is this artwork is rare, unusual and interesting.

-S

[Havok]

The only difference is this artwork is rare, unusual and interesting.

And ahem...  plagiarized...

[Stingray]

The only difference is this artwork is rare, unusual and interesting.

And ahem...  plagiarized...

I fail to see how that's relevant.

-S

[Havok]

The only difference is this artwork is rare, unusual and interesting.

And ahem...  plagiarized...

I fail to see how that's relevant.

-S

It's not original.

However, it's his machine, and if he wants to horde it, then so be it. Besides the artwork, is there anything different about this to make it anything special, besides its status as a prototype? Gameplay? Easter eggs? Quirks?

[RayB]

We'd like to have access to it because we'd like to use it on our projects.

I really don't see how this is any different from scanning and vectorizing the artwork from any other machine. The only difference is this artwork is rare, unusual and interesting.

I have to ask why? What makes this art so special that hobbiests need to use it on their cabs? I think the risk that people will create "fake" Defender prototypes and sell them for big money outweighs the good it would bring to hobbiests (IMHO).

[Kevin Mullins]

I'm usually a pretty easy going type fella. But it also seems to me that one point is being overlooked quite a bit.
There are  two different machines everyone is talking about.
There is a difference between "Prototype" and "Early Production".
Everyone keeps harping on the prototype issue.....common sense tells you that there might be a total of 5 of those in the entire world......period.
So "reproducing" one of those would be stupid and only make yourself look like an ass. (complete with front artwork, etc)
Now if if anyone could come up with the approximate number of "Early Production" units, then that might put an end to all the possibilities of that being outrageously "reproduced". Simply enough, they used that graphic design on the first run of machines until Lucas put an end to it. Hence they are nonetheless hard to comeby....but they are NOT prototypes. They were actually sold to the public, put on routes, in the arcades, making money type machines.

As far as someone making the decision to share the original artwork, it's up to them, end of story. It's not "hording" it or anything. If you happen to like the design and want to use it or something similar for your project.... find another way, there's plenty of pictures out there of these things, and plenty of artists to boot that can help create something. It's not that big of a deal to have the exact reproduction type artwork, considering it's more than likely not going on an original machine.
For those that DO own an actual early production unit, then it's not like they don't already have the machine in front of them, and can even , ummm....maybe hire someone to scan and vector the piece they need. This is just plain typical practice for when something is NOT available.

I'm sure this discussion will go on for awhile yet, but I think I'm done with my rant.
I personally have no desire for the artwork.
Should I ever need it, then I'm sure I can find a way to make it happen.

I totally appreciate it when people share there stuff, but there is no reason to get greedy over something you really don't need.

(ok.... flame on)

[TOK]

Since someone has saved it for posterity, I don't think we need it repro'd.
Since it happens to just basically be cut and paste art from a number of different comic books and movie posters, I'm actually glad Williams had to change it. To me, Defender is one of the Holy Grails of originality and gameplay, a standout among standouts of the Golden Age. The Star Wars art actually cheapens it asthetically. The more common stencils are much better.

I'm glad this machine was found by someone who appreciates it and will be well kept.
Would I want that art reproduced and put on my Defender machine? No f'ing way!

[zorg]

Since someone has saved it for posterity, I don't think we need it repro'd.

how many "saved for posterity" files where lost  

I'm confident that Rav have some backups of this one 

[Edgedamage]

I believe prototypes used white PCB's does your machine have them? My buddy just got a mini stand up pacman for $200 told the seller he just wanted it for parts.

[koolmoecraig]

I know it's a prototype and all, but really. How much would that thing bring at auction? $2-$3000? Maybe $4000? Is the only value of the machine the different side art?

Defender was a popular game for sure, but it's not exactly Pac-Man.

If you had that artwork silk-screened and sold the pieces yourself you could probably make more than the game is even worth. $300 a set? Cha-Ching!

Who cares if everyone slaps that side art on their machines? Who is it going to hurt, the un-educated collector??? It's not going to drive down the value of your machine when it is 1 of only 4 around.

I say share it and make a nice profit for yourself.

[MaximRecoil]

Defender was a popular game for sure, but it's not exactly Pac-Man.

Trivia

This game [Defender] shares the title of "Highest Grossing Video Game of All Time" along with Pac-Man. To date it has earned more than one billion dollars!

http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=D&game_id=7547

To this day, it has been calculated that Defender has made up to 1 billion dollars, making it the highest-grossing video game of all time, together with Pac-Man [...]

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/495/495401p1.html

[koolmoecraig]

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pac-Man is a pop culture icon. You think ESTIMATED earning stats mean that more people know of Defender than Pac-Man? Come on. That just means nerds like us dumped tons of quarters into Defender because it's a hard game.


Nice try though.

[RetroJames]

On the "proto" or "early production" issue...

So far, by my research there are 4 cabinets accounted for that have this artwork (that are not the Italian knock-offs).

Jarvis has stated he thought 4-5 "protos" had this artwork. (his word in quotes)

Andy's site clearly shows advertising material with this artwork.

It is my belief, though not proven, just my belief, that 4-5 cabinets were made with this artwork and one or more of these cabinets were used for Promo material to hype the game. These cabinets would also most likely have made the trade show rounds.

At some point, once the promo / ad tasks were done, they were sold off to operators, this is how they ended up in circulation.

I think the artwork was changed before the next cabinets were made and shipped, meaning possibly the 6th one produced and so on.

Right now we are at #4, waiting for #5.

Also, I am going to try and find out some serial number info on these things so we can see of that places them in the production run anywhere.


By defenition, I think these are all "early-production" not "prototypes." Well maybe #1, but that's it.

</$0.02>

[MaximRecoil]

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pac-Man is a pop culture icon. You think ESTIMATED earning stats mean that more people know of Defender than Pac-Man? Come on. That just means nerds like us dumped tons of quarters into Defender because it's a hard game.


Nice try though.

First of all, the earnings of an arcade machine can only be estimated. It is impossible to know the exact earnings of any arcade machine, right down to the last quarter.

Secondly, earnings are the only means of objectively measuring a game's popularity. I would say that you are confusing fame/cultural status with actual "game popularity". Remember that when you compared Defender and Pac-Man, "game popularity" was your point of comparison. Just because Grandma has heard of Pac-Man and not Defender doesn't make the game itself more popular, especially given that she may have never even played it.

As an example of the difference between "game popularity" and fame, consider the Atari 2600 game "E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial".

[koolmoecraig]

Fair enough.

But you are still going to try to tell me that Defender was a more popular game than Pac-man? Any way you want to say it, it's not the case. It might be worth more to Arcade game dorks like us, but Pac-man would reach across to people who don't even care about the hobby.

Pac-Man is a pop culture icon and reference point. That alone would make it far more valuable.

[MaximRecoil]

But you are still going to try to tell me that Defender was a more popular game than Pac-man?

No, I never said that. I posted statements showing that they both had a similar level of earnings, indicating that as far as "game popularity" goes, i.e. how often the games got played, they were on roughly the same level. This was in contrast to your statement of:

Defender was a popular game for sure, but it's not exactly Pac-Man.

A statement which indicates that you believe that Defender was not even in the same league as Pac-Man in terms of game popularity.

BTW, Pac-Man machines are not particularly valuable in the scheme of things. Here is one with a "Buy it Now" price of $800.

Here is a Defender with a "Buy it Now" price of $800.

[koolmoecraig]

You are TOTALLY right!

The first ever Pac-Man prototype, the game that pretty much started it all with the mainstream, would bring equal money with the Defender protoype.

You win.

By the way, VW Beetles aren't really that valuable either because a TON of them were built. It's also a cultural icon.

I beleive the first one ever off the assembly line sold for $104,000 last year. An average Beetle from that year brings around $15K.

[MaximRecoil]

You are TOTALLY right!

The first ever Pac-Man prototype, the game that pretty much started it all with the mainstream, would bring equal money with the Defender protoype.

That's a strawman, unless you can kindly direct me to where I said:

The first ever Pac-Man prototype, the game that pretty much started it all with the mainstream, would bring equal money with the Defender protoype.

I'm not a soothsayer and neither are you, so put away your defective crystal ball and stick with what is known, i.e. that a typical Pac-Man isn't particularly valuable, pretty much in line with what a typical Defender sells for.

Additionally, assuming there is even a way to verify a "first prototype" of a Pac-Man or a Defender, and we did know exactly what each one would sell for at any given time, it doesn't affect the "game popularity" of either title. Quantums and Major Havocs sell for more than either Pac-Man or Defender...and didn't a War of the Worlds go for a few thousand on eBay recently? None of those were very popular games.

[Kremmit]

Quantums and Major Havocs sell for more than either Pac-Man or Defender...and didn't a War of the Worlds go for a few thousand on eBay recently? None of those were very popular games.

War of the Worlds didn't get a chance to be popular, because it never made it past the prototype stage- hence the price.

[MaximRecoil]

Quantums and Major Havocs sell for more than either Pac-Man or Defender...and didn't a War of the Worlds go for a few thousand on eBay recently? None of those were very popular games.

War of the Worlds didn't get a chance to be popular, because it never made it past the prototype stage- hence the price.

There were WotW conversion kits for Star Castles and Armor Attacks and the such. The one that sold on eBay for $3500 recently was one of those converted Star Castles. The ones that didn't get past the prototype stage were the ones made for the AMOA show with color vector monitors and sideart. Those were the only dedicated units built.

The "game popularity = value" theory was a red herring in the first place, not to mention that it is demonstrably wrong.

[Kremmit]

War of the Worlds didn't get a chance to be popular, because it never made it past the prototype stage- hence the price.

There were WotW conversion kits for Star Castles and Armor Attacks and the such. The one that sold on eBay for $3500 recently was one of those converted Star Castles. The ones that didn't get past the prototype stage were the ones made for the AMOA show with color vector monitors and sideart. Those were the only dedicated units built.

From http://zonn.com/Cinematronics/history.htm:

War of the Worlds (1981) Less than 10 were made. They were all sold to distributors and sold at trade shows. The game did not generate enough interest to be put into production. One interesting note is that the game was originally made with the B+W X-Y monitors, but a couple years later, it was resurrected with a color monitor around the time of Solar Quest. Only one or two where made this way, and it is doubtful that they still exist.

On the other hand, from http://zonn.com/Cinematronics/so_history.txt

War of the Worlds was a conversion for Star Castle.  Given the rarity of
the game, it's debatible that the game was popular or even had a decent
production run.  Again, to date no one has seen the board set, and only
old issues of Replay magazine prove the game existed.  The game's control
panel use the same layout as Star Castle.

I don't pretend to know which is true.  I did play one at the California Extreme game show in San Jose last year.  It was fun for a bit, but it got boring after a while- the difficulty didn't seem to ramp up, and the gameplay never changed.  Felt like a prototype game that wasn't done yet to me- I wonder if they weren't demo-ing it in a playable, but unfinished state, and never really polished it up when the orders didn't come in.

[MaximRecoil]

This person claims to have played it in a Motel:

From:  machinamen...@gmail.com - view profile
Date:  Thurs, Jul 6 2006 12:32 pm 
Email:   machinamen...@gmail.com
Groups:   rec.games.video.arcade.collecting
 
I remember playing a WOTW in a Calgary motel in 1983. Only remember it
was 1983 because I saw Return of the Jedi in theaters on that trip.
Anyway this thing was banished to a dinky, somewhat messy little room
which also contained the motel vending/pop machines. I played maybe
four games on it and thought it was somewhat diffcult and not that fun
to play.

I'd like to think its in some warehouse or basement sitting forgotten,
but most likely that game is in one of Calgary's three landfill's
somewhere.

[CheffoJeffo]

Guess the artworkdid end up being scanned and vectorized ... and now exploited ...

eBay link

Cheers

[Q*Bert_OP]

Guess the artworkdid end up being scanned and vectorized ... and now exploited ...

eBay link

Cheers

hmmm...email sent to seller...I wonder which one of the owners of one of these machines...hmmm...

[Stingray]

Guess the artworkdid end up being scanned and vectorized ... and now exploited ...

eBay link

Cheers

It's available from ClassicArcadeGrafix.com now.

http://retroblast.com/newsitem.php?cid=3082&PHPSESSID=83cfb912eb0e8ce9de7b8ec937b73aef

-S

[CheffoJeffo]

It's available from ClassicArcadeGrafix.com now.

http://retroblast.com/newsitem.php?cid=3082&PHPSESSID=83cfb912eb0e8ce9de7b8ec937b73aef

Yeah ... they're the seller on the auction I linked.

It will be interesting since a disgruntled owner of a Defender prototype has informed LucasArts' legal department as to what is going on.. could have signifiacant implications ... or not ...

Cheers.

[Q*Bert_OP]

from Rabbit3475(yes, that's my ebay account) to "auctionoutletsales":

Q:Wow, that's amazing...where did you find this artwork?


A: I hired a professional illustrator in India to redraw it. I am not that handy with Illustrator so found someone that was. I then made some fine adjustments in photoshop to make it look more original. The artwork was for my personal conversion project but I decided to share it with other collectors too.

/of message

hmmm...sounds...well...you decide...

[RetroJames]

I spoke with Mike too, it is not an exact copy by design. If you look at the original vs. the repro there are differences.

[Havok]

Does it really matter? Anyone who would pony up the dough for a "proto" should do their homework before spending an insane amount of money anyways, and if there are a couple of copies out there who cares?

Are we really worried about 4-5 machines whose value may drop a little if copies are out there? We build copies of machines all the time, and no one complains about it. How many of the people here have purchased repro art, or even NOS stuff and put it on their cabs?

Besides, the defender artwork is all ripoffs of previous artwork anyways, so aren't we being a bit hypocritical?

[Stingray]

Does it really matter? Anyone who would pony up the dough for a "proto" should do their homework before spending an insane amount of money anyways, and if there are a couple of copies out there who cares?

Are we really worried about 4-5 machines whose value may drop a little if copies are out there? We build copies of machines all the time, and no one complains about it. How many of the people here have purchased repro art, or even NOS stuff and put it on their cabs?

Besides, the defender artwork is all ripoffs of previous artwork anyways, so aren't we being a bit hypocritical?

I couldn't agree with you more.

-S

[sidekick]

Does it really matter? Anyone who would pony up the dough for a "proto" should do their homework before spending an insane amount of money anyways, and if there are a couple of copies out there who cares?

Are we really worried about 4-5 machines whose value may drop a little if copies are out there? We build copies of machines all the time, and no one complains about it. How many of the people here have purchased repro art, or even NOS stuff and put it on their cabs?

Besides, the defender artwork is all ripoffs of previous artwork anyways, so aren't we being a bit hypocritical?

agreed....

[Kremmit]

Anybody who knows enough about games to be buying a Defender Proto ought to know that the art is painted on, not a decal.  I don't think there's much worry of anybody being duped by the repro art.  It's just something fun for collectors that want it.

[Q*Bert_OP]

Anybody who knows enough about games to be buying a Defender Proto ought to know that the art is painted on, not a decal.  I don't think there's much worry of anybody being duped by the repro art.  It's just something fun for collectors that want it.

protos are decal, production units are painted 

[extremepong]

Just to clear up one comment I saw. One cannot "trademark"  art purchased attached to a cabinet since copyright law applies and the copyright rights reside with the original creator (or business entity) until transferred (sold). Like a book, right?  But, out of curiosity, is it legal to even vectorize the art? I could see the objections from the rightful owner of the copyright but would they prevail? Any opinions? I'm guessing vectorizing is as legally impermissible as vectorizing the characters from the latest bestselling book. It is an unauthorized copy,  really. Maybe nobody cares, but that's another story.

[Tiger-Heli]

But, out of curiosity, is it legal to even vectorize the art? I could see the objections from the rightful owner of the copyright but would they prevail? Any opinions?

I think the issue here would hinge on whether the image could be considered public domain, and also to some extent whether any profit were made on the vectorizing.

For example, I think I can legally draw a picture of Superman or Bugs Bunny and hang it on the refrigerator door, but I probably can't legally put the same drawing on a greeting card and sell it in a craft shop.

[extremepong]

Copylaw.com has a good discussion. With a measure of  irony I present some text from their site:

Using Works Created on or After January 1, 1978:

Newer works, created after January 1, 1978, which were previously protected for the life of the author plus 50-years, are now are protected for the life of the author plus 70 years -- with no renewal term. Copyright in works created by two or more authors, now expires 70 years after the death of the last surviving author. And, if the work is a work for hire, or anonymous or pseudonymous, the term of protection is the shorter of 95 years from first publication, or 120 years from the date of creation. Consequently, no post-1978 works are scheduled to fall into the public domain until the middle of the 21st Century1.

But perhaps vectorizing is permitted under "fair use" as being  scholarly and with limited commercial impact, as you pointed out.  And that would cover your refrigerator too, provided you briefly contemplated the history of cartooning every now and again and did not merely smile at the drawing.

[RayB]

Vectorizing is fair use if you keep it for your own personal use. Uploading it for others would be a no-no. Selling prints on Ebay would be a no-no. etc...