FE 3D Model support

[headkaze]

This is probably a message for Howard, but I'm curious about the 3D model support for FE's like 3D Arcade (and the next DK I think?). How do you import the .w3d mesh files on the 3D Arcade site? What exactly is the .w3d format? DirectX only allows for .x mesh files as far as I know. And I can't find anywhere support for .w3d. Is this an external dll or something that can read these files?

[Howard_Casto]

You can't use w3ds for any app that isn't written in director or flash. 

You also can't convert w3d's into anything else. 

Dk will use X files. 

If you go to the 3darcade forum, in the wip section, I have a thread called "UAM" which explains the x-file-based format I've designed and how model builders can take their 3dsmax source files and convert it to the new format.  I've already converted some of mine, but the reason everyone is waiting is because... well, aside from me and peter, nobody is even remotely interested in adding 3d model support to their fes.  Or at least, it appears that way.  Since none of the released builds of dk use x files, all the builders are in a holding pattern. 

It's all my fault I guess.

 

[headkaze]

Thanks for the info Howard

DX comes with a program called conv3ds which will convert .3ds files to .x. But the 3D Arcade models are in .max format. Is there anyplace to download the full collection of models in .x format? Have you converted them, and if so could you possibly host them somewhere for download?

[Howard_Casto]

I explained that above....

No there aren't any models and there probably won't be until I get the next release of dk out.  Users cannot convert them, even if the source is available.  They aren't a walk in the park to convert, and aside from that we want to get the authors' conscent whenever possible. 

When I do (and the other authors do) they will be hosted over at 3darcade. 

(p.s.  3ds2x is crap, especially considering the 3ds format doesn't even support textures)

[headkaze]

I should have read your reply properly, I ended up on the 3DArcade forums and got a bit lost in reading threads. I found the two topics regarding the conversion to .x.

I think more authors would use the 3d models in their front end if they knew how easy it is to do. Importing a mesh and rotating in DX it is easy but I think alot of authors would possibly think that it's difficult.

I'm asking because I was interested in getting 3d model support into GameEx, so I was going to knock up a demo in .NET to show Tom how easy it would be to do. Although he uses DirectDraw, I'm sure there is some way to place a Direct3D layer onto a DD surface.

Does DK use DirectDraw mainly or is it all in Direct3D? Anyway, sorry I didn't read your full post properly, it looks like the conversion has already been in process for a while. Good luck with it, and don't forget to make a post here when your closer to completion!

BTW, if the .3ds format dosn't include textures, does the .max format include them? Perhaps there is a command line util that can convert .max to .x? But I would expect you've explored every avenue on that front and have realised the only way is to painstakenly convert every model manually. I take my hat off to you for undertaking such a large project (as with all the many other utils and software you give to the scene).

[Howard_Casto]

Heh, do you think I would have been working on organizing an active conversion for the past year and a half if it were that simple?

The w3d format is "forgiving" while the x file format isn't.  If if such a utility existed, you'd have to manually tweak each and every source file anyway to account for transparent pngs and reflection/refraction maps.


I don't know how much you know about 3d modeling, but the max format is just the default save format for 3dsmax, NOTHING supports it really.  It's the equivelent of a psd file, you convert it to something before you use it.  A just like a psd doc in photoshop, it supports everything.

Now the x file supports textures, but they aren't stored in the x-file, rather they are called from a path specified in the file.  There are ways to internalize the textures, but it becomes very difficult to parse the file then.  The best way is to just zip the whole mess up.


Finally, while loading and rendering a 3d model is easy, actually doing something with it isn't.  If you want to slap it in an ugly old picture box and move that around then it's easy to do, otherwise scaling and positioning the object across a 2d space when the object itself is actually in a 3d world is suprisingly difficult. 

dk uses dx8 which merges d3d and ddraw.  Everything is done with polys from dx8 on, which is a good thing as modern video cards handle 3d stuff better and thus it's faster.  Tom wouldn't have the easiest job in the world as he'd have to build a 3d "engine" into gameEx.  Tons of setup is involved just to get d3d up and running in dx7 and below.  Now the actual rendering of the 3d object across the 2d fe... that is just a surface conversion as you said.

[headkaze]

Yeah I've done a bit of 3d modelling in Lightwave, but so long ago I probably wouldn't remember the countless shortcuts you need to know.

There is quite a lot of initialization for D3D I agree, but it's alot simplified in MDX as far as I can tell. I'm messing with 3d stuff now and there is a lot of things to consider like device lost events and such. But putting it all into a class for just displaying a model shouldn't be too difficult.

It sounds like your support for 3d in DK will be more than just a model spinning around, so what have you planned for it exactly? A model spinning around on it's own axis is one thing messing with the camera is alot more difficult as you say. 3DArcade has some impressive stuff like the rotating models around a circle with the camera in the middle. Have you got plans for something like that?

[Howard_Casto]

What I do with the cabinet models will be pretty basic.  Note I said CABINET models... that's as much as I'm telling. 

[headkaze]

Dont give too much away! Oh you havn't

I guess we'll have to wait and see then