Steve Jobs Joins the Dark Side!!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch.php?v=Y3xKhLlhzfM  (Video)


mrC

[Harry Potter]

The software makes the computer not the hardware.

You could write windows for the G4 and it would still suck eggs.

That was funny by the way. 

[Havok]

Apple has been assimilated. I think I would like to buy a powerbook just so I could load Windows on it.. (since it's a full pc now)

That would really piss off the Apple fanboys!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Another thing, with Mac having Intel under the hood...wouldn't you think they'd be cheaper now?


NOT!


mrC

[ChadTower]

It's always amazing to me how many people mock Windows and yet there is nothing better out there.

Sure it has issues, but show me another product of any nature that does EVERYTHING.

[jhanson]

It's always amazing to me how many people mock Windows and yet there is nothing better out there.

Sure it has issues, but show me another product of any nature that does EVERYTHING.

OS X

[ChadTower]

There are thousands of things that Windows does that OS X does not, most of them involved in the corporate/IT part of the equation that 90% of users never know about.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Yeah. I'm neither a Mac guy nor a Windows guy. I use what gets the job done for the most affordable level. And that mean I've been relegated to using a PC w/ Windows. I like Macs, they're beautiful, slick, well built, very intuitive, the software/OS (I think) is a little more practical and certainly more "user friendly", but at the cost of being less "robust" and technically useful.

Windows hate is rampant, because Microsoft makes it so easy to hate them. Big security holes, shoddy programming at times, etc. Apple works hard for the love they get, and as such, is really more a company built on "cult of personality" rather than technical prowess.

As a side note, my favorite quote re: OS fanboys: "Linux is only FREE is your time is WORTHLESS!" For anyone who has ever tried to install and config a Sendmail setup...you know what I'm talking about.

mrC

[ChadTower]

Well, when you try to do EVERYTHING, certainly you're going to have holes.  The modern computer is the ONLY appliance out there expected to be able to do pretty much anything.

[jhanson]

There are thousands of things that Windows does that OS X does not, most of them involved in the corporate/IT part of the equation that 90% of users never know about.

Like what?  If you're talking about specific programs not being developed for OS X, you're right.  If you're talking about the capability of the OS, you are not.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

There are thousands of things that Windows does that OS X does not, most of them involved in the corporate/IT part of the equation that 90% of users never know about.

Well, this is what I think makes an apple better for the majority of your "average" computer users. A bunch of my completely computer-illiterate friends just got Apple laptops and they're out their creating fairly amazing DVD shorts with iMovie and studio quality musical compositions with GarageBand. Both of which came with the systems.

They're doing this "out of the box", with no experience. I was certainly impressed over the holidays, visiting with them.


mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Let's all take a deep breath, too. No APPLE VS. x386-based PC flamewars.

This thread is about unity; the fusion of Mac and Intel. Flowers and candy for everyone!



mrC

[ChadTower]

Agreed.

[jhanson]

I like Macs, they're beautiful, slick, well built, very intuitive, the software/OS (I think) is a little more practical and certainly more "user friendly", but at the cost of being less "robust" and technically useful.

OS X is less robust?  Nah.  That thing is rock solid.  It's built on a BSD core.  Windows XP is a lot more solid than previous versions of Windows, but I have yet to have a crash on OS X.

As for being technically useful, I think both have their merits.  A big advantage of OS X is being able to compile and use lots of open source tools that are developed for linux/bsd (Nessus, nmap, etc).  XP is useful in that there's a lot of free/cheap little apps out there that you can download - a lot more than OS X for sure.

[thebrownshow]

Also, just from a bug-finding standpoint, Windows is one of the only products in the world that has that many people trying to break it on a regular basis.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Also, just from a bug-finding standpoint, Windows is one of the only products in the world that has that many people trying to break it on a regular basis.

Exactly! Major corporate backbones aren't running on OSX, etc. It's the server features of the Windows OS that are always going to be the most vulnerable. Especially is Joe Blow doesn't even know he's running a server (ie: SMTP process, etc)

It's that, combined with the fact that Microsoft rushes out OS's before they're finished.



mrC

[Havok]

They're both great operating systems, but for me it boils to to bang for the buck: My Windows pc has it, Mac don't.

Perhaps if Apple loosens up and sells just a motherboard (since you KNOW they're locking down installs to the hardware), I would build a snazzy little Mac for less - but they'll never do that, so Windows for me...

[ChadTower]

Honestly, I don't care.  I know them both as well as UNIX, Linux, and others because of my profession.  I have had all of them at home (yes, even had a Sun workstation running Solaris at home for a while).

Turns out I use my machine at home to access the net, burn CDs and DVDs, and occasionally do some small time web development.  Any OS can do all those so I chose based on availability of software and my wife's skill level.  We have a Dell server running XP Pro as a result.

[Grasshopper]

People who mock Linux tend to forget that without the competition created by Linux and other open source software Windows would almost certainly be a lot worse and more expensive than it actually is.

I still think that in the long run Linux has the potential to blow everything else out of the water. But if that it to happen the Linux developers need to start focusing on basic things like a foolproof way to install and de-install ALL programs. At the moment there are several installation standards out there and far too many programs will only install from the command line.

[ChadTower]

There isn't nearly as much money in desktops as there is in servers and corporate licensing.  That is where Microsoft makes all of its money and Linux will never penetrate.

Major corporations pay Microsoft for accountability and instant reaction to newly found vulnerabilities.  Linux does not and will never have that by its open source nature, so corporations will not use Linux no matter how much better it could become.

I was hoping BeOS would go further, I liked that.

[thebrownshow]

I still think that in the long run Linux has the potential to blow everything else out of the water. But if that it to happen the Linux developers need to start focusing on basic things like a foolproof way to install and de-install ALL programs. At the moment there are several installation standards out there and far too many programs will only install from the command line.

If you look at the average open source contributor, they're not writing software for their grandmother or wife, they're writing software for themselves.  People who write software don't mind the command lines or README docs or things like that. 

I think that's the real problem with open source.  Without the motivation to bring it to the masses, what motivation do open source contributors have to make things more friendly?  Kinda goes back to the whole "Invisible Hand" thing you learned about in high school economics.

[Zakk]

The modern computer is the ONLY appliance out there expected to be able to do pretty much anything.

I use my dishwasher to babysit my kids, hide my (waterproof) valuables, and wash the pets.

[ChadTower]

Plus, if half the internet ran on Linux, it would fail daily.  You could never, EVER, protect an open source OS if it had even a fraction of the people hacking on it that Windows has.

[thebrownshow]

Plus, if half the internet ran on Linux, it would fail daily.  You could never, EVER, protect an open source OS if it had even a fraction of the people hacking on it that Windows has.

... especially if they have the source code!

[ChadTower]

That is pretty much what I meant.

And going beyond that, people would intentionally program in backdoors and vulnerabilities to be exploited later, nevermind just bugs.

[Grasshopper]

Plus, if half the internet ran on Linux, it would fail daily.  You could never, EVER, protect an open source OS if it had even a fraction of the people hacking on it that Windows has.

I'm not sure about half, but a large percentage of the internet does run on Linux.

[ChadTower]

UNIX, probably, but very unlikely Linux.  The backbone of the net runs via high end routers, mostly Cisco, and they aren't running Linux.

[c64rulez]

They're running away from steve jobs.
It'll get even darker when he'll get a microsoft OS transplant.

[Grasshopper]

I still think that in the long run Linux has the potential to blow everything else out of the water. But if that it to happen the Linux developers need to start focusing on basic things like a foolproof way to install and de-install ALL programs. At the moment there are several installation standards out there and far too many programs will only install from the command line.

If you look at the average open source contributor, they're not writing software for their grandmother or wife, they're writing software for themselves.  People who write software don't mind the command lines or README docs or things like that. 

I think that's the real problem with open source.  Without the motivation to bring it to the masses, what motivation do open source contributors have to make things more friendly?  Kinda goes back to the whole "Invisible Hand" thing you learned about in high school economics.

Well you could ask what motivation do open source developers have for releasing their software at all? Perhaps recognition, maybe pride in their work, or just altruism. It probably varies from person to person. But whatever the reasons, they still release the software.

I think that many Linux developers have simply got used to a command line installation process because that's always been the traditional Unix way of doing things. Most open source software written for Windows installs in the normal way.

In any case many people are actually making money out of Linux. It's in the commercial interest of Red Hat, Mandrake etc. to get together and sort out basic things such as a common installation method.

[ChadTower]

That would actually be bad for either of them.  They are not going to make money by being like the other company, they are going to make money by offering things the other company does not offer.

[ClubNinja]

I was hoping BeOS would go further, I liked that.

BeOS!  Oh, the memories.

[ChadTower]

A friend of mine actually started a business selling boxes preloaded with BeOS and was making money for about a week.

[markrvp]

I have switched platforms from PC to Apple to PC to Apple to PC now.

[ChadTower]

But they're using those as incentives to buy a Mac.  If you could do those things on a PC with that type of ease most Lusers would have no reason to buy a Mac.

[markrvp]

The profit margin on the software has got to be a lot higher.  I would guess you could sell 5 to 10 copies of each title on Windows for every MAC that you could sell.  Final Cut Pro at $800 X 10 = $8000 compared to $3495 for a new MAC G5.

[ChadTower]

Maybe, maybe not, but it's not software they are trying to sell.  Even if they sell many copies, it's not about profit margin, it's about amount of profit in total.

They are not a strict volume company.

Besides, you don't make money on software.  You make money on software support.

[Dartful Dodger]

Isn't Apple just making fancy mp3/video players?

[Havok]

Isn't Apple just making fancy mp3/video players?

Ha - yeah, the new iPods come with a 15" or 17" LCD and a keyboard...

[USSEnterprise]

At this point, I'm strongly considering going for a Mac for the next computer. Not a new one. Definitley not a G5. Probably a dual processor G4. What was so wrong with the Motorola/IBM CPUs that Apple had to convert?

[shmokes]

They're practically made of lava.

[shmokes]

There isn't nearly as much money in desktops as there is in servers and corporate licensing. 

You've said this before and it always seemed incredibly suspect to me.  MS gets paid for every OEM copy of Windows that is preinstalled on every PC sold in the world.  Not to mention that Windows does very well at retail as well. 

This time I decided to look it up.  According to MS's financial reports the Client segment (the department that makes desktop operating systems) brings in WAY more revenue than any other segment of their business except the Information Worker segment (MS Office), which comes in a close second. 

I'm not saying that servers and corporate licensing don't bring in lots of money.  Obviously they're huge.  But I think you are way off base when you downplay the profitability of the desktop for Microsoft.  Even discounting the influence that owning the desktop has on the profitability of other segments (MS wouldn't own the office suite market or be remotely successful in the server OS market if they didn't already own the desktop) and looking only at the direct profits that come from Windows you're just wrong.

MS financial reports

[ChadTower]

.

[markrvp]

Awwww, come on Chad.  You KNOW shmokes knows better.  After all, he's still in college (at 27) and has Google.  That's way more credible than having years of experience as a software engineer at a major corporation. 

[shmokes]

Awwww, come on Chad.  You KNOW shmokes knows better.  After all, he's still in college (at 27) and has Google.  That's way more credible than having years of experience as a software engineer at a major corporation. 

Because being a software engineer at a major corporation tells Chad where MS is getting their money...  Chad's gut tells him that MS doesn't make much from OS sales for home computers.  My gut tells me that he's wrong.  That's all there is to it.

And you people crack me up attacking me for being in school, like I'm supposed to feel sheepish and embarrassed about it.  If it makes you feel any better, I've been the network administrator for a fairly large organization for the last six years.  It's a full-fledged career.  In fact, if I stayed here, instead of leaving soon to go to law school, I could retire with a full pension when I'm 45 years old.  It's not like I've been flipping burgers for the last ten years.  The fact that I'm "still" in school at 27 is a little misleading.  I started my degrees (B.A.s in Poli Sci and Info. Systems and a minor in French) in January 2003 and will finish them this December.  It takes the average student 5 years to complete just one degree.  I don't feel the least bit bad about coming in just shy of 4 years with 2 degrees plus a minor (especially while simultaneously working full-time). 

Seriously Mark, I'm ambitious and successful.  I'm fairly bright, too.  You'll do much better attacking the issues.  You just come off as a fool attacking me personally..

[markrvp]

I started my degrees (B.A.s in Poli Sci and Info. Systems and a minor in French) in January 2003 and will finish them this December.

[Bones]

My good old TI99/4A never caused this much anger.

CALL CLEAR

[danny_galaga]

i pointed my friend towards this thread as he really likes Linux and really hates MS (heck, he had a site called windows1984.com!). Personally, i use MS and am too lazy to learn about anything else but i follow this thread with interest and not much to contribute. Here's what my friend has to say:

"did u know?

* google runs on top of ~ 100,000 linux servers

  http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3491026

* microsoft is deploying a massive linux based wireless lan
  which will serve 25,000 employees in 60 countries:

  http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;754084996;fp;16;fpid;0

* microsoft has in the past used a distributed linux
  web server network called "akamai" to protect it's web
  site against distributed denial of service attacks.

  http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/19/1061261127586.html

* al jazeera tried to use akamai to protect its web presence, but,
  since it hates freedom too much, its contract was cancelled.

  http://news.com.com/1200-1035-995546.html

* hotmail was built on solaris (UNIX) and continued to run solaris
  for several years after it was acquired by MS.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotmail

* the mac OS X safari web browser is built on the open source
  khtml redering engine, with improvements flowing in both
  directions:

  http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/safari/

* the mac OS X kernel ("darwin") - which is the core of the
  operating system was derived in part from opensource
  freebsd ( which allows re-use of its code, in closed products ).

  apple now supports a parallel "opendarwin" Mac OS project,
  with improvements flowing between darwin and opendarwin.

* sun solaris is now opensource software:

  http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/
  http://www.opensolaris.com

* linksys and cisco wireless routers have in the past,
  allegedly used linux inside their devices - violating
  the copyrights of the owners.

  http://lwn.net/Articles/51570/

* venezuela is moving all-of-its-goverment off microsoft
  and onto open source. note that the headline warns
  "but faces challenges" - this is referring to challenges
  from microsoft.

  http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1439

  ( there are many examples of non-US countries around
    the world ditching MS )

* opera web-browser is built on top of QT opensource
  graphics library, which is why it works on so many different
  platforms (windows, mac, etc), including mobile phones
  ( with qtopia )

  http://www.overclockersclub.com/?read=2066112

* many opensource companies and projects make money,
  in some cases, millions of dollars - mysql, trolltech, redhat.

  MSFT vs RHAT
  http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=MSFT&t=5y&l=off&z=m&q=l&c=RHAT

* individuals and small companies, especially, stand to make
  a lot of money out of this stuff.

  eg. US opensource developers sell support and training
  for their project.

  http://www.etherealsoft.com/

  eg. italian company NXmachine.com opensourced the core components
  of its remote desktop software, but continues as a commercial entity
by
  providing support and closed-source server side NX software.

  http://www.nomachine.com/index.php

  eg. australian IT company has at least 30 employees, and provides
open
  source content management solutions - they make money from support,
  and development of special closed-source add-ons for customers.

  http://www.squiz.net

#

but this stuff is mostly "under the radar", meanwhile, the
microsoft "shock and awe" campaign rages on around us.

just hold tight.

ps. i'll send you the next ubuntu live CD when it is released
in april, so you can see where the linux desktop is up to,
you can run it, even save files and install software, without
disturbing your installed windows OS or hard drive."

hehe. the last part obviously relates to my fear of trying anything different  for fear of 'screwing it up'. took quite a bit of convincing for me just to try firefox!

[Bones]

[ChadTower]

Because being a software engineer at a major corporation tells Chad where MS is getting their money...

[shmokes]

Don't forget humble and soft-spoken.   

Well....I wouldn't go so far as that.  In fact, I'm a right bastard in those respects.

[Harry Potter]

That's mfunnt cause i'm drunk

[mr.Curmudgeon]

* al jazeera tried to use akamai to protect its web presence, but,
  since it hates freedom too much, its contract was cancelled.

Pooooooooliiiiiiiiitiiiiiiiiiiiicssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!           


mrC

[Harry Potter]

politics rule.

i love geroge bush and the other guy who's the USA president.


Cheney?

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Funnnay!!!   


mrC

[SithMaster]

This thread is about unity; the fusion of Mac and Intel. Flowers and candy for everyone!

forget the flowers and the unity wheres my candy

all i really care about is being able to type some docs, play some fps games and listen to music.  macs are more expensive then my current pc was a year ago so i went with a windows os pc.  but i really dont think i am going to get a new pc until im 50 so i dont have to worry.  and by then hopefully some good games for the pc will be out.

[shmokes]

Because being a software engineer at a major corporation tells Chad where MS is getting their money...  Chad's gut tells him that MS doesn't make much from OS sales for home computers.  My gut tells me that he's wrong.  That's all there is to it.

Actually, a decade of experience in maintaining corporate licensing agreements is what forms my opinion.  People outside the industry have NO IDEA how much money a company will pay for a site license for the OS... then take that figure and multiply it by TEN for development/IDE laden OS licenses... this doesn't even figure SERVER licensing.  A 4 CPU XP Server license, for ONE BOX, is well into the thousands.

Why is a software engineer, rather than your IT people maintaining your corporate licenses?  That don't make no sense, especially in a large corporation. 

[ChadTower]

I haven't always worked in a large corporation, and I haven't always been software engineer.  I was for a while, but now I'm actually something like Configuration Management Lead Architect.

[JackTucky]

I know kung-fu.

Shmokes signature troll.......

"shmokes probably votes communist and protests freedom on the weekends"

C'mon, I need my spot back.


JackTucky

[shmokes]

I haven't always worked in a large corporation, and I haven't always been software engineer.  I was for a while, but now I'm actually something like Configuration Management Lead Architect.

Great title!  Just technical enough to sound important and difficult, just vague enough that nobody knows exactly what in hell it means.  That'll look good on a resume.

[ChadTower]

Well, half right...

People in software engineering would know exactly what it means, and it actually is pretty specific.  Configuration Management isn't a grey area thing but it is one of those areas that one would not know about unless they were in a software development organization.  I'm sure there are titles like that in a lot of engineering fields.  Call in an internal service, I guess.

That said, yeah, it is a little overblown.   

[shmokes]

C'mon, I need my spot back.


JackTucky

Yeah....your time of having the honor of that spot was kind of short lived.  Bad luck.  But getting a compliment like that from someone like Markrvp is so unlikely that I had no choice.  Better luck next time.

[MustardTent]

Well, half right...

People in software engineering would know exactly what it means, and it actually is pretty specific.

[shmokes]

Hah!   Chad's no saint.  Masochist is a much more likely explanation.   

[Grasshopper]

..... but now I'm actually something like Configuration Management Lead Architect.

Lol, I refuse to believe that isn't just four random words strung together.

Actually strangely enough, no matter what order you put the words in, you still end up with a vaguely plausible job title.

How do you find the time to do such a mysterious job and still be on this message board 24/7?

[ChadTower]

I work as a software engineer and have been developing kernel-space software for Embedded Linux for some time now.  I worked as a Configuration Manager for a while as well.  It is a very well defined job.  Unfortunately, you need tons of patience (the userbase is a bunch of know-it-all developers), and you need tons of time.

Chad, I did not enjoy working as a CM, but I very clearly (and painfully) understand the need for the role.   You must be a saint to do this full-time.

You need to be a saint to be a script monkey junor CM guy, if you have the option to be something else.  Once you get up into the senior levels it's a lot more developing internal tools, implementing enterprise solutions like version control and state transition engines for stuff like bug tracking and ticketing systems, and defining policy across development groups.  It's more tolerable and you don't have to take all the crap the lower CM guys do.  I did my time as a lower level guy, but being in my early 20s, it didn't SEEM like crap because I was just happy to be there.

[danny_galaga]

* al jazeera tried to use akamai to protect its web presence, but,
  since it hates freedom too much, its contract was cancelled.

Pooooooooliiiiiiiiitiiiiiiiiiiiicssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!           


mrC

but only a little...