Do you feel like a criminal?

[Ahigh]

deleted

[Bones]

I checked the one that closest resembles- "I just don't care".

[missioncontrol]

Is the first one the I don't care button?

[versapak]

As many quarters as I popped into these machines back in the day...

I feel justified in my MAMEing.

That being said...

I do currently support the companies by purchasing their classic compilations (Enough to have one legitimate version anyway, as I can't be bothered to purchase 50 versions of the same compilation. cough cough Namco cough). I just choose to play the MAME version instead.

[Samstag]

I feel exempted for being a coin-op developer.

[paigeoliver]

I wish I could read an article about software piracy that is both in a major media outlet AND is written by someone who knows what they are talking about.

Other than roms I am down to two pirated bits of software. One is a certain pricey graphics application that I would have never bought in the first place. No lost sale there. I would still be using ulead imagepals today if I had to pay $500 for that application.  The other is Carcassonne (a game), which I tried to legitimately purchase from the webstore for $4, but my German wasn't good enough to figure out their shopping cart.

Software is not music, bits about itunes and DRM have no place in an article about software piracy.

Numbers like the piracy rate are absolutely impossible to track. How are they generating these numbers?

A lot of software sellers are just pursuing the wrong markets, as a lot of people just never buy any software anyway. I used to buy software all the time, now I haven't bought anything other than a few games since around 1999. Most sellers of software that isn't highly specialized would do better trying to market themselves to system builders to bundle the software with their systems.

[SOAPboy]

I checked the one that closest resembles- "I just don't care".

i didnt check any because that wasent an option..

I just really dont care..

[shmokes]

I chose I love the idea of stealing without fear for reprisal because it was the funniest.  There's probably some measure of truth in it too, I suppose.

[Bones]

If I could legally by the Mame ROM collection for $200, I would.

I own Illustrator 11. That is $1000 worth of software here is Australia. I would never pay $1000 for it though. I purchased it using the student ID of a friend and purchased the identical Education Version for just under $200.

If I it were not for my mates ID I would have just got a pirate version from somewhere. As it turns out, Adobe got something from me. Not the full price they might have expected but compared with the alternative of squat, I think they did OK.

But I can't buy the full ROM collection for $200, so they all get nothing. I am not justifying it, it is just the simple fact.

[shmokes]

I agree.  I'm not saying necessarily that piracy is justified, per se, but in many or most cases the companies bring it upon themselves.  Certainly this is the case in the music industry.  The RIAA goes on and on about how they are losing all their customers to piracy, when in reality they are losing all of their customers that THEY have priced out of the market.  $15-$17 for a CD?  Give me a ---smurfing--- break!

Case in point.  Y'all might remember me talking about allofmp3.com -- where you can download music iTunes-style for 2 cents per megabyte, making an entire 192 kbs MP3 cost only about 7 or 8 cents.

Well, that was back in April, when I first found that site and I've been using it ever since.  Thing is, my user account keeps track of the account activity.  I can check at any time how much money I have spent there in total and I am now over $110.  That's $110 in about six months.  Guess how much money I had spent buying CD's in the five years prior to finding AllofMp3....

ZERO DOLLARS!!!

I'm not an anomaly.  I've turned probably a dozen of my friends on to that site and all of them have become music buying maniacs.  The record industry deserves piracy, IMO.

[missioncontrol]

Do you feel like a criminal?

sometimes I feel like a nut




but sometimes I don't

[duffjr]

i just clicked number 1 because it was decent and arguable.  i used to play metal slug on neorage but some restaurants still make money off that game.  i'm not sure if you mean the manufacturer or vendor.

if this has been said before, "piracy is a victimless crime."  i don't necesarrily believe in it, but it's what i do.  my computer bill would be like $10,000 if i actually paid for every song and every program i've ever used.  i'd be forced to post on forums all day if piracy were regulated.

[menace]

I went with number 1 as well since it is largely correct--even if I wanted to pay for it I couldn't and the number of game manufacturer's that still generate revenue of the mame roms is so close to 0 as to be negligible--its like "stealing" people's garbage--sure it belongs to them but they don't want it.

The record industry deserves piracy, IMO.

Too true--the music industry was tried and CONVICTED of price fixing the price of cd's a couple years ago.  I know this because i received a $15 check in the mail as part of the settlement.  I feel no remorse-- NONE-- if someone steals music--no more than if I robbed a thief's house.  My only regret is that the music industry is structured so that the artists are forced to deal with the thieves in order to get their product out there.

Wasn't the directtv thing a scam?  I seem to recall the letters were sent to people who may have purchased equipment for the purposes of testing but directtv had no real evidence that a crime was committed--sort of a scare tactic to extort money from people who might not know their legal options...Now where was that tactic used in the mame community?  oh that's right...but thats another post.

[ChadTower]

I feel exempted for being a coin-op developer.

[Crazy Cooter]

I feel exempted for being a coin-op developer.

That's probably the lamest excuse I've ever heard from an adult.

I'm a software developer.  Does that exempt me from paying for any software?

For the games I've played illegally on Mame, I feel morally correct in doing so.  Most of the illegal games I play are for evaluation of other coin-op games, in many cases, games I have never seen in real life before (especially looking at horse racing games while working on Breeders' Cup).

What I didn't say (but what I think you inferred) was that I play games illegally all the time with Mame.  I don't.  I use Mame to evaluate games (typically not even playing them) very infrequently.

You have to take my response in the context of the posed question.  But I can see how you were confused.

I do own several arcade games, and I do play those games 100% legally on a very frequent basis.  For example, I have a donkey kong cabinet at work, and I spent 3 hours trying to get GEGOTW on marp tonight.  Just guessing, I think most people with scores on Marp don't own the games that they have uploaded scores for.

I do appreciate your standing up against people rationalizing what is simply piracy, however.

So if you used illegal copies of horse racing games to develop Breeders Cup, how is that different than someone selling an illegal MAME cd?  Either way there is profit due to theft.  Of course one has more profit than the other.

[Crazy Cooter]

I feel exempted for being a coin-op developer.

Where's that choice?  I think 99% of us are coin-op developers  .

[ChadTower]

It is not possible to use a ROM to develop another game, not literally anyway.

What he would be doing is research on similar existing products, not using that to develop a game.

[Crazy Cooter]

If I steal Saint's book and then start selling arcade machines, I've used something I stole to make me money.  I didn't resell the book, but I stole what I learned from it.

No difference.  Sounds like using the classic "this pirated thing is for educational use only"...  It's all stolen property.

Besides with www.starroms.com & www.gametap.com, those that want to pay can.  Those that don't won't.

[ChadTower]

No difference.

[Crazy Cooter]

He downloads pirates the rom, plays it, and learns the same things about it that any other player learns.  Then writes code to do the same thing, incorporating what he liked from the stolen IP, and sells it for profit.

compared to:

He downloads the rom and plays it.

Which is more criminal?  Of course the stolen IP was used in the development of Breeders Cup.  If it wasn't important, it wouldn't have been stolen in the first place.  Second, using Saint's book as an example, that's not a tool either, but it does offer insight, outline what to do, and generate ideas.

[ChadTower]

Which is more criminal?

[Ed_McCarron]

And, IP is notoriously difficult to pin down.

Case in point:  an arena for robotic combat.

Back in the day, there were threats of lawsuits flying hither and yon due to 'stolen IP'.

From what our lawyer told my group "You could ask any engineer to design such an arena.  They'd all come out with the same thing - a steel box with lexan walls.  Therefore, its common enough to not be enforcable under IP laws."

We never did get sued.

Look-and-feel comes into play a lot in this area.  It doesn't have to even be specific data - if it looks like Pac Man, and it feels like Pac Man, expect a knock on the door from the lawyers.

Does that keep me from playing the 5 or 6 games I actually like and don't own the rights to?  Nah.

[ChadTower]

As far as who's right and wrong, that's not the topic.

[Crazy Cooter]

Knowledge gained from playing a game is not IP, it's just knowledge.

Look at the guy going after EA Sports for Madden 2006.  EA took his ideas, AFAIK no code or anything was used.


(CT & I have to duke it out.  It's like our 2nd job... or our first, judging by what time it is heheh.)

[ChadTower]

Look at the guy going after EA Sports for Madden 2006.

[Crazy Cooter]

He doesn't stand a chance against EA whether he's right or wrong.  They can drag it out into the millions for legal fees.

[ChadTower]

Very likely will turn out to be true, though it ends up cheaper for them to settle with him for a token sum if he has any chance of a judge hearing the case.

[Howard_Casto]

I feel exempted for being a coin-op developer.

[RayB]

Sorry but this is a typical biased poll. No options for "none of the above". No option for "I don't think or feel anything".

[ChadTower]

Yeah, I didn't vote, because there is no option for "I don't have a MAME install".

[ChadTower]

I need to be redeemed to the one I've sinned against because he's all I ever knew of love.

[shmokes]

My favorite is the rationality that as long as they didn't lose a sale there's no harm done -- the one that says, "Well, had I not pirated it I still wouldn't have bought it, though I use it regularly now." That's like saying that it's okay if someone breaks into my house and lives there while I'm gone, so long as they leave everything just so before I return. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm by no means getting all high-and-mighty.  I just don't feel like I need to convince myself that something is right, when it clearly isn't, just so I can do it.  If you carry around guilt for doing the bad thing, just stop doing it, don't make up feeble excuses that nobody, including yourself in your heart of hearts, would seriously entertain.

[ChadTower]

Well said.  If you want to do something you know is wrong, at least be a man and own up to what you're doing.  Don't sit around and come up with flimsy reasons it is acceptable.

[Grasshopper]

The record industry deserves piracy, IMO.

Indeed. The hypocrisy of the record industry beggars belief. They lost any claim to the moral high ground a long long time ago.

Remember when CDs first appeared? The record companies wanted to charge us a second time for music we already owned and they basically got away with it. You couldn't return a vinyl record and receive an equivalent CD in return for a nominal fee. Oh no. If your vinyl records got scratched you had to buy the music again. When it suits them they say you're buying the physical media and when it suits them they say you're only buying the right to play the music. They can't have it both ways. To rub salt in the wound they charged more for CDs than for records even though CDs are cheaper to produce. Even today the markup on CDs is a friggin' joke.

[ChadTower]

Why should you be able to just return a record and get a CD without charge?  It is a different product.

I can't return my '99 Civic and get an '06 Civic for free.

[RayB]

Stole the words right out of my mouth Chad... 

[DarkKobold]

I feel like a smooth Criminal.

Anyone know if Annie is OK?

[ChadTower]

I always found it hilarious that for decades, during Red Cross CPR training, you'd have to yell ANNIE ANNIE ARE YOU OKAY at the mannequin before giving it mouth to mouth... once that song came out, people would always follow it with a TEE HEE...

...the dummy we used in high school had WHORE written on the forehead in permanent marker.   

[Grasshopper]

Why should you be able to just return a record and get a CD without charge?  It is a different product.

I can't return my '99 Civic and get an '06 Civic for free.

I didn't say without charge. I said a nominal fee i.e. just enough money to cover the cost of the CD itself but not the IP rights.

Record companies say CDs cost so much because you're mostly paying for the right to play the music. Fine but if you've already earned that right by buying a vinyl record you shouldn't have to pay for the same right a second time when buying a CD.

[ChadTower]

Record companies say CDs cost so much because you're mostly paying for the right to play the music. Fine but if you've already earned that right by buying a vinyl record you shouldn't have to pay for the same right a second time when buying a CD.

They have also said at times that the physical medium is the license, thus you have technically bought a piece of vinyl with the music imprinted on it. 

Where in that license you describe does it say you are entitled to more than one physical copy, particularly one on a different medium, and therefore in a different format?

[ClubNinja]

I need to be redeemed to the one I've sinned against because he's all I ever knew of love.

That girl needs a sandwich.

[Grasshopper]

Record companies say CDs cost so much because you're mostly paying for the right to play the music. Fine but if you've already earned that right by buying a vinyl record you shouldn't have to pay for the same right a second time when buying a CD.

They have also said at times that the physical medium is the license, thus you have technically bought a piece of vinyl with the music imprinted on it. 

Where in that license you describe does it say you are entitled to more than one physical copy, particularly one on a different medium, and therefore in a different format?

I understand the law, or at least the records companies' interpretation of the law. I'm just saying I think it's wrong.

[GGKoul]

This Legal discussion of MAME has been spoken about to death.  Do a search and enjoy!

[RayB]

When you buy a Coke, do you think you're only buying the liquid inside? Hell no. In fact the biggest chunk of the price tag goes towards packaging. You're paying for the damn bottle and the machines that put the liquid into that bottle. The liquid may be the REASON you bought the bottle, but in the end that's what you bought, a bottle.

When CDs came out, no one forced you to "upgrade" your vinyl or tapes. If you scratched up your vinyl, that's your own fault. You rendered the record useless by letting it get scratched. You de-valued it. Should you be entitled to bring the record to a store and get another one because yours has been damaged through no fault of theirs? No. Why would it be any different just because we're talking about CDs?

What you're talking about is the CONTENT. And yeah, it may seem insulting that companies are trying to sell us the same content over and over again, but ultimately you have a choice: to buy or not. So if you already own Appetite for Destruction, then don't buy it again.

[More Cowbell]

Example3:

[ChadTower]

I understand the law, or at least the records companies' interpretation of the law. I'm just saying I think it's wrong.

When did the law gain a concept of right or wrong?

There is legal and illegal.  Right and wrong are not part of the concept.

[Zakk]

Is there some kind of troll-clock that has gone off recently? 

[crashwg]

I don't feal as though anyone is loosing out when I pirate games, movies, whatever.  I think of it this way...  If I didn't pirate it, I wouldn't buy it anyways because I can't afford it.  Therefor, the producer of the goods makes the same amount of money whether I pirate or not.

Granted, there are alot of people involved in putting stuff like video games, software and movies together and I'm sure they don't appreciate someone like myself benefitting from their hard work, but when I put myself in their shoes I think to myself "Would I rather make $5m and have my product be enjoyed by 100,000 people or make $5m and have my product be enjoyed by 2, 4, even 600,000 people?"  The later would sure make me feel just as good or better because people obviously liked my work.

Maybe some day when I make the big bucks and can afford supporting my family and entertaining myself I'll splurge a bit and actually pay for something I can otherwise get for free.  Until then, all my consoles will be modded and every movie that enters my front door will be copied.

[AtomSmasher]

I don't feal as though anyone is loosing out when I pirate games, movies, whatever.

[Howard_Casto]

My favorite is the rationality that as long as they didn't lose a sale there's no harm done -- the one that says, "Well, had I not pirated it I still wouldn't have bought it, though I use it regularly now." That's like saying that it's okay if someone breaks into my house and lives there while I'm gone, so long as they leave everything just so before I return.

[Havok]

I think one thing that is not being addressed is: are we really talking about something that is actually illegal? I think everyone is taking today's bull$hit laws\regulations and trying to apply them to software from 25 - 30 years ago. Show me the WRITTEN Eula for Space Invaders, and then we can talk...

[Sephroth57]

I checked the one that closest resembles- "I just don't care".

my feelings exactly

[allroy1975]

How come that Appetite for Destruction album (CD) still costs $16+ and I can buy Hudson Hawk for like $5.   wtf?  I would guess that the GnR record has more than made it's money back while Hudson Hawk I think finally broke even around the time of it's DVD release.

I've gone to recording studios, but never a big one to put out a real record...but I would imagine a MOVIE costs a bit more to make than a CD, production wise. 

I bought Doom II (split it with 3 friends then we all copied it), Quake II (same thing)..and I think that's all.  I have Mame, 2 servers, main PC, a laptop, a Jukebox and a PC in my car....who thinks I own 6 Windows XP Pro licenses?  what  does that bad boy cost?  I have no idea, but it's over $100 last time I checked. 

Everyone's greedy.  Myself included.  They can charge big companies (who for some reason..really not sure why...I think SHOULD have to pay) for software etc, but I'm not paying for it...unless I can't find it.  Or they wrote some DANG FINE copy protection. 

That's just me.  it's just another reason i'm going to hell.  if you beleive in that..
 

Allroy

[Sephroth57]

shhh, theres no hell =p

[ChadTower]

How come that Appetite for Destruction album (CD) still costs $16+ and I can buy Hudson Hawk for like $5.

[markrvp]

shhh, theres no hell =p

Sure there is.  We're in it right now.

[TMS]

The way I look at it If a starving man steals bread to feed his family, it's not a crime. Well I am starving for classic games 4,000 of them. 

[allroy1975]

How come that Appetite for Destruction album (CD) still costs $16+ and I can buy Hudson Hawk for like $5.   wtf?  I would guess that the GnR record has more than made it's money back while Hudson Hawk I think finally broke even around the time of it's DVD release.

It costs what the people who own the IP say it costs.

This is not a case of "it should cost what I want."  This is a case of "it costs what the seller demands."

No, you're wrong.  If they want money for it...it should cost what I want. 
It doesn't cost what I want...thus it's free.

[Havok]

How come that Appetite for Destruction album (CD) still costs $16+ and I can buy Hudson Hawk for like $5.

[ChadTower]

Actually, with a market economy it will cost what the consumer whats eventually: too high and they will look to competitors, or straight up not buy it. I just listen to the Radio - that's why my CD sales have plummeted. I'm sick of all the DRM and too high music costs. Screw them. I'm sure they count me as a pirate so they can whine to the government and judges to make a better case for them, but it's simply not true.

What competitors?  Only one record company owns the rights to Appetite For Destruction.

[Hoopz]

He means competitive ways to hear music or the time spent listening to music.  The radio is an alternative to listening to a CD. 

[ChadTower]

The person used a specific album and specific movie as the dataset.

You are changing the parameters in midstream, so the comparison doesn't work anyway.

[Hoopz]

I would hardly call Hudson Hawk a movie anyway...

[ChadTower]

True.  It's more like a blank tape that you haven't reused yet.

[Hoopz]

Is that like all your tapes of Tiffany??

[ChadTower]

Exactly, bro.  My mother watched the news one day and threw out all my NWA, 2 Live Crew, etc... so I went to the record store and bought like 8 copies of that album from the clearance bin.  Taped over them... she thought I was a huge Tiffany fan.   

Clearly, this was all way before mp3 and flashable players and writable CDs.

Thank GOD for headphones.

[Hoopz]

What about Night Ranger and Air Supply.  I remember seeing them in that same bin...

Surely, downloading *ahem* music like that can't be a crime!

[ChadTower]

Night Ranger and Air Supply didn't have any teenage redhead chicks.

[Hoopz]

No but the music was just as bad.

[ChadTower]

When you tape over the cassette, all you have left is the photo on the cover.

Would you rather look at 16 year old Tiffany or the dudes from Air Supply?

[Hoopz]

When I was 17, Tiffany was smokin hot.  Like the chick from the Bangles.  And Banarama...

[ChadTower]

Mmm, Susanna Hoff.

[allroy1975]

Dude...if you guys can't appreciate a movie like Hudson Hawk  I can't help you there. 

Seriously though, why do movies cost less than CDs?  it doesn't make sense and verifies to me how out of control greedy they (the Record lables) are.  Why does windows cost $100+ when it doesn't work right?

I dunno.  I give stuff away when I work long and hard on it...you can see that again when the arcade art library comes back up.  Why does everyone want so much money for everything?  it just frustrates me.  I don't feel guilty at all for "pirating" the stuff I download.   do you think they feel guilty when they sell a 20 year old record for $16.99?  I bet not.

Allroy

[Hoopz]

I remember watching a movie at a drive in with Susan Hoffa in it.  I kept waiting for her to take off her shirt.  Never happened....

[markrvp]

I don't feel so much like a criminal - more of an outlaw.  Outlaws are way more cool than criminals

[Hoopz]

I don't feel so much like a criminal - more of an outlaw. Outlaws are way more cool than criminals

Good point.

The Outlaw Josey Wales....

[ChadTower]

The Bad Ass Billy Gunn!

[RayB]

Seriously though, why do movies cost less than CDs?

[deadmoney5]

FU

Night Ranger rules

to each his own

[Grasshopper]

When you buy a Coke, do you think you're only buying the liquid inside? Hell no. In fact the biggest chunk of the price tag goes towards packaging. You're paying for the damn bottle and the machines that put the liquid into that bottle. The liquid may be the REASON you bought the bottle, but in the end that's what you bought, a bottle.

When CDs came out, no one forced you to "upgrade" your vinyl or tapes. If you scratched up your vinyl, that's your own fault. You rendered the record useless by letting it get scratched. You de-valued it. Should you be entitled to bring the record to a store and get another one because yours has been damaged through no fault of theirs? No. Why would it be any different just because we're talking about CDs?

Not a very convincing analogy IMHO.

The markup on CDs is absolutely colossal. Here in the UK you can buy a blank CR-R for about 20p yet a typical music CD will cost you

[SirPeale]

The way I look at it If a starving man steals bread to feed his family, it's not a crime.

It is if he puts anything on it.  Jam, for instance.

[Harry Potter]

The way I look at it If a starving man steals bread to feed his family, it's not a crime.

It is if he puts anything on it.  Jam, for instance.

So if I download ROMS but don't put jam on them it's OK?

[Hoopz]

Does it make a difference if its jam or jelly?

[Bones]

The main difference when comparing a Coke to a CD are the distribution costs. A case of coke is this big by this big and holds maybe 24-30 cans. Take the same cubic dimensions for a box full of CD's and you would get 300-400 for the same space and weight.

There are many examples where distribution is more expensive than manufacturing, packaging or cost of raw product. Coke is expensive to distribute and it has to be refrigerated before being consumed.

CD's are expensive because we are being anally slammed, that is all there is to it.

[SirPeale]

The way I look at it If a starving man steals bread to feed his family, it's not a crime.

It is if he puts anything on it.  Jam, for instance.

So if I download ROMS but don't put jam on them it's OK?

It's a pop culture reference.  Figured SOMEONE would get it...

[Crazy Cooter]

There was another culture reference that wasn't quite "got"  .

Cuz coke habits are expensive.

I don't think RayB meant soda pop...

[Bones]

When you buy a Coke, do you think you're only buying the liquid inside?

[hyiu]

My answer is just a simple "NO"...
no need to put any reasons behind it either...
A no is good enough for me.

[Havok]

I think this really boils down to whether or not you prefer Pepsi or Coke. I personally prefer Pepsi.

Remember when they used to do the Pepsi challenge? I was in a mall once and took the challenge, and of course, chose Pepsi...

On a separate note - I can't believe I had to actually explain what a "Pepper" is: I was talking to someone a little bit younger than me and made a reference to being a Pepper too, and he totally didn't know what I was talking about. He did see American Werewolf in London, so he knew who the guy was though...

Note to self: start lining up retirement homes...

[RayB]

What the hell is a Pepper?

[Zakk]

I'm a pepper...

[markrvp]

Wouldn't you like to be a Pepper too?

[deadmoney5]

a lot of those old cds sound like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, too....horrible mixing..

Now they come out with remixed cds...and we are supposed to pay again for the same cds that just sound better...now THAT is bs..

when you buy a pc game and something is corrected, you just download the patch...they don't make you buy the whole game again..

[RayB]

when you buy a pc game and something is corrected, you just download the patch...they don't make you buy the whole game again..

Shhh! Don't give them any ideas.

[DrewKaree]

Blame Bones.  If he hadn't shown us this link, it wouldn't have been brought back up 

The way I look at it If a starving man steals bread to feed his family, it's not a crime. Well I am starving for classic games 4,000 of them. 

That's gotta be the funniest rationalization I've seen around these parts

I don't feel so much like a criminal - more of an outlaw.  Outlaws are way more cool than criminals

I think Hulkster said it best.  I wanna be a pirate because they get to say "booty" a lot.



I think Ahigh's comments in this thread may have been frowned upon by his employer due to him stating he acted illegally in developing a product *his words*  Isn't that just hilarious? 

[markrvp]

What?

[M3talhead]

If its a "penny for your thoughts", but all I wanted was to "put in my 2 cents", who's making the extra penny? 

[TMS]

It is if he puts anything on it.  Jam, for instance

Is that a christopher walken line? For some reason I can hear him saying it in my head

[M3talhead]

It is if he puts anything on it.  Jam, for instance

Is that a christopher walken line? For some reason I can hear him saying it in my head

You forgot the part where he says he needs more cowbell, and then stabs someone in the face with a soldering iron.

[DrewKaree]

It is if he puts anything on it.  Jam, for instance

Is that a christopher walken line? For some reason I can hear him saying it in my head

You forgot the part where he says he needs more cowbell, and then stabs someone in the face with a soldering iron.

Did they kill a baby?