Author Topic: Audiophiles, Need Suggestions Please... (Read 7097 times)

Baker535 · « **on:** August 19, 2005, 01:33:16 pm »

Audio is another hobby of mine, I love music and home theater. I've enjoyed trying to build a decent system on a limited budget through the years. I've pieced together through deals, bargins and clearances a small system that has worked well for me so far.

My receiver is going to go soon. I hear a pinging noise as it warms up for about 15-20 minutes. It is very annoying and it's probably the oldest and weakest component in my setup. I use it strictly as a pre-amp. The DVD player is currently handling the 5.1 audio via the on-board decoding.

I'm looking into the $750-1,250 range for a preamp/processor that would fit well into my setup. I've thought about getting the matching Rotel processor (RSP-1068), but my friend has one and I wasn't as impressed at that component for the money as I was their multichannel amps. I've heard good things about Outlaw Audio for the money, they have the new 990 model out now. I also thought about trying to snag a used B&K Reference 20 or 30. Any suggestions / advice / links would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

My system so far:

Front: B&W 602's series II
Center: B&W CC6
Rear: Jamo E 875
Subwoofer: Advent av550s
Receiver/Preamp: Harmon Kardon AVR 5
Amplifier: Rotel RMB-1075
DVD/Audio Transport: Cambridge Audio Azur 540 D
TV: Toshiba 32HF37
Wiring: Interconnects + heavy gauge Monstercable, bi-wired

-baker

Zakk · « **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2005, 05:21:58 pm »

I like to keep it simple. Go with the most expensive Harmon/Kardon you can buy, get yourself some Bose acoustimass speakers with a (good) secondary sub.

Also, what is a Harmon/Kardon AVR 5 ?

I used to think separate receiver/amp was the way to go, now I just get a good all-in-one. Right now I am running:
H/K AVR235
Athena Sub
Bose Acoustimass Series 10
(I think I added an Athena center channel...I just liked the acoustics a bit more)
DVD: Doesn't matter as long as it has DVI output. I don't see any difference
TV: I chose a 52" Sony for regular TV and a Benq projector for movies.
This setup doesn't cost a fortune but sounds like a million bucks. The neighbors say they can hear it and that is through a lot of brick and across a lawn.

Crazy Cooter · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2005, 09:59:32 pm »

Quote from: Zakk on August 19, 2005, 05:21:58 pm

I like to keep it simple.

GGKoul · « **Reply #3 on:** August 19, 2005, 11:50:59 pm »

I would buy a Yamaha reciever before getting a Harmon.

Baker535 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2005, 12:02:10 am »

The Harmon Kardon AVR 5 was the lowest output receiver in their line up from about the mid to late 90's. It wasn't much for driving speakers, but as a cheap preamp it did a passable job. I think I paid less than 200$ for it at the time, so it was very sufficient for the quality vs. the price.

Now the the problem is that I have a dedicated amp that blows any of those mass market receivers away for power and clarity. I'm looking for a dedicated preamp only because any receiver with built in amplification is a complete waste of money. I'd rather the money spent go to a better processing unit or build quality, not inferior amplification. That was my main purpose of getting into separates, the components last a lot longer and the quality is better because of it.

The Harmon Kardon was OK for a start while I was in college, but as stated earlier it is dying and their build quality is more mass market level than they use to be. I don't want to replace a product that has been mediocre for me with another one from the same manufacture. I think at this point Denon is the most mass market brand I would go, but I'm not aware if they make a preamp only unit.

I do appreciate the replies though... it is always fun to see opinions and perspectives. If anyone else comes up with anything they want to add, feel free to chime in. Half of the fun too was to see if anyone else was into higher end audio gear on this board. I've noticed a lot of people get into similar hobbies around here.

-baker

Baker535 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2005, 12:11:54 am »

Quote from: GGKoul on August 19, 2005, 11:50:59 pm

I would buy a Yamaha receiver before getting a Harmon.

Yup I felt the same way...

Actually I've put together a cheap system for my computer. I have a Yamaha receiver paired up with a set of Mission 700's and a Acoustic Research 12" sub. Awesome for gaming... In Quake 3 I could pick up the hum of the railgun's so well. When I played instafreeze I got accused of botting a lot because I always knew which direction to look. It was so fun!

Man I love English speakers... if anyone gets to try out a pair, Missions are great for the money. I still love my B&W's more though.

-baker

Zakk · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2005, 01:43:18 am »

Yamaha is my second choice, bar none.

pointdablame · « **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2005, 02:32:34 am »

Get an Outlaw or a Sunfire preamp.. you won't be disappointed IMHO.

You seem to have no need for speakers, but just since they were mentioned.... steer clear of BOSE. They make some nice headphones.. and their wave radio and the like are nice if not a bit gimmicky, but their speakers simply aren't worth it. You can get so much more for your money.

And if you aren't afraid to get them checked over, and are really into audio, look at older amps. I'm only 21, but my father has a Phase Linear 400/4000 Amp/PreAmp combo in my basement, and I have to say the sound is simply amazing. The power output (for the money anyway) is out of this world and I sit in front of them for hours at a time.... but they won't do you much good for a modern 5.1 - 9.1 speaker setup without extra equipment. If you want something purely for music though.... that'd be my choice.

Zakk · « **Reply #8 on:** August 20, 2005, 10:25:10 am »

You're on crack.

pointdablame · « **Reply #9 on:** August 20, 2005, 02:12:18 pm »

You see.. I always believed that too.. until I actually heard good speakers. I have a pair of BOSE cubes in my room right now, and they are ok for my 15' x 15' room, but they are not great. We've (my family) also had 901s, BOSE outdoor speakers, and a floorstanding set as well the 5 piece single cube set. They are all "ok" but they are way overprice.

BOSE is the boutique speaker of the audio world... they are the Orange County Choppers of speakers.... everyone has heard of them and they just assume they are great because everyone says they are.

They aren't.

Go here some REAL audiophile speakers, and if you can't tell the difference between them and BOSE, you are deaf.

My father has a pair of Ohm Walsh 200 MK II drivers in OHM G cabinets.... THOSE are speakers. Wilsons... those are speakers.... even Kilpsch makes speakers that blow BOSE out of the water in clarity and audio depth.

If you want a tiny speaker for a small room, get some BOSE and be happy... especially if you have never heard good speakers before. Don't tell me that I'm on crack though just because you don't know any better

Go to any audiophile site/forum and watch how BOSE gets blasted. Some of it is jumping on the bandwagon for sure.... but the opinions got started for a reason. BOSE fills a nitch for people who want "expensive" speakers and don't actually care if they sound good or not.

And saying that big speakers make you feel "macho" is just stupid.. sorry. You're buying into the BOSE infomercial talk about how they fit "a room of audio in a small cube" That's pure bull. A well rounded speaker NEEDS to have some area to it... you can't fit the clarity of a good speaker into a BOSE cube.. and again, remember, I have them in my room right now. I listen to them EVERY DAY, but that is only because I lack the room to put anything else in.

But I'm narrow-minded..... hello kettle, meet pot.

AceTKK · « **Reply #10 on:** August 20, 2005, 02:24:36 pm »

I hear very good things about Outlaw audio. I'm not sure whether they have an in-home demo program, but it might be worth looking into.

-Ace-

pointdablame · « **Reply #11 on:** August 20, 2005, 02:28:31 pm »

Quote from: AceTKK on August 20, 2005, 02:24:36 pm

I hear very good things about Outlaw audio. I'm not sure whether they have an in-home demo program, but it might be worth looking into.

-Ace-

I don't have a lot of firsthand experience with them, but I've heard two instore demos (same store) and was VERY impressed. I've had (and sold) an older Sunfire preamp, but loved the thing to no end... college tuition was just a tad more important than it though

Crazy Cooter · « **Reply #12 on:** August 20, 2005, 04:54:28 pm »

<- Peddled speakers at the local mall for a spell.

Zakk · « **Reply #13 on:** August 21, 2005, 07:26:39 pm »

I dunno.

JB · « **Reply #14 on:** August 21, 2005, 09:25:25 pm »

Quote from: Zakk on August 21, 2005, 07:26:39 pm

Oh, and to compare Ohm Walsh speakers to Bose is simply not fair.
Ohm Walsh 200 MK II drivers MSRP: $ 2995.00
I'll BET they sound good for 3 grand!!! Remember, oranges to oranges

Yeah, but my apples crunch WAY better than your oranges.

Zakk · « **Reply #15 on:** August 21, 2005, 10:38:10 pm »

But my orange juice stings your eyes more than your apple juice!

That's it, yer all on crack!

pointdablame · « **Reply #16 on:** August 22, 2005, 01:39:31 am »

FWIW, we did NOT spend 3k on the Ohms... although they were a bit more than a normal BOSE setup would cost, but not much really. A pair of 901s are $1400 list and you still need to add in a good subwoofer to get decent sound. Put in that good subwoofer and you aren't far off of what I got the Ohms for.

The newer double cubes are much better, I agree, but rattling things off the wall has more to do with power TO the speakers, not FROM the speakers

And its easy to make stuff loud... it's extremely difficult to make it loud and clear.

To be perfectly honest, I used to feel that no speakers were very different. And I used to laugh at my father for spending $100 on speaker wires... I mean, they are just wires right?

But when you sit in a room with good speakers, and listen to the music..... and then try to talk to the person next to you only to realize that you can't even hear your own voice..... is something I (and everyone I've shown) never forgets. Good speakers can give you a clarity that is simply unbelieveable. Loud is one thing (and extremely easy).... music that is so loud, yet clear enough that you don't even realize it's loud is something entirely different.

BOSE make decent speakers for light movie watching in a bedroom or a small CD player setup, etc. The point of my posting in this thread however, was that ANYONE who is considering a dedicated pre-amp should steer way clear of BOSE. If you are putting that much money, time, and effort into your audio equipment, you want something better than BOSE IMHO... that's all there is to it.

JB · « **Reply #17 on:** August 22, 2005, 04:11:25 am »

Quote from: pointdablame on August 22, 2005, 01:39:31 am

But when you sit in a room with good speakers, and listen to the music..... and then try to talk to the person next to you only to realize that you can't even hear your own voice..... is something I (and everyone I've shown) never forgets.

...

Loud is one thing (and extremely easy).... music that is so loud, yet clear enough that you don't even realize it's loud is something entirely different.

Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm the only person in the world that actually likes NOT being deaf.

Zakk · « **Reply #18 on:** August 22, 2005, 10:46:18 am »

I swear, I don't know how you can even find your stereo through all the crack smoke that must be in that room of yours!

In your honor I'm going to pull out my old 15" Floor monitors that I mortgaged my house for back in the 80's, and my old bryston amp and my rotel turntable and see if I've just lost touch. Zeppelin IV here I come!!

(no I'm not kidding)

pointdablame · « **Reply #19 on:** August 22, 2005, 11:26:22 am »

Quote from: JB on August 22, 2005, 04:11:25 am

Quote from: pointdablame on August 22, 2005, 01:39:31 am
But when you sit in a room with good speakers, and listen to the music..... and then try to talk to the person next to you only to realize that you can't even hear your own voice..... is something I (and everyone I've shown) never forgets.

...

Loud is one thing (and extremely easy).... music that is so loud, yet clear enough that you don't even realize it's loud is something entirely different.
Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm the only person in the world that actually likes NOT being deaf.

what did you say???

Seriously though, my point is that clarity is hard. I don't always "crank it to 11" I do enjoy my sense of hearing. My point was that people into audio (and just average joes) will crank it every now and then. The difference between cheap speakers and good speakers is that the clarity is still there.

And Zakk... there is no crack in this house, just lots of clear, quality music

zaphod · « **Reply #20 on:** August 22, 2005, 01:31:04 pm »

A fun/"informative" site to add more fuel to the Bose/all else fire. http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

pointdablame · « **Reply #21 on:** August 22, 2005, 02:19:55 pm »

Quote from: zaphod on August 22, 2005, 01:31:04 pm

A fun/"informative" site to add more fuel to the Bose/all else fire. http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

From that site

Quote

I would estimate that the vast majority of current Bose owners are the victims of miseducation or a complete lack of audio education, and a false belief that they own the best speakers on the market. A small minority will buy Bose for the actual sound quality knowing full well that they are paying more for a badge than for performance. The size factor by itself should be a non-issue since Polk, Gallo, and others have already made smaller speakers than Bose for less the price and equally big sound. A simple way to test this theory is to see just how familiar a Bose owner is with the real industry leading brands, like Klipsch, Paradigm, Definitive Technology, and B&W. "What's that? I've never heard of that no-name brand."

That man is an absolute genius... I could not have said that any better myself. He does lean VERY heavily against BOSE however. They aren't as bad as he makes them out to be, bu that paragraph is absolute perfect in every way.

Zakk · « **Reply #22 on:** August 22, 2005, 04:24:47 pm »

A bit slanted, and rather harsh. Again, a perfect "Linux is better than Windoz because you've never heard of it!!" kind of attitude

What's not true is that I am completely familiar with other brands of speakers. One of my posts said that I was a fan of Paradigm, although admittedly I've never heard of B&W speakers (I wonder what colour they are!)

What I AM saying is that I went from speakers that would distort when you cranked the volume (I've blown a couple of woofers and a fair number of tweeter diaphrams in my day), to speakers that would not waver even if you turn it past the point of deafness. If you crank em, and they are still clean, then what else would I get from spending another $5000 on a pair?

I should add to this that I do tend to listen to nothing but Heavy Metal... Maybe if I was listening to a 500 piece orchestra I might not be impressed. However, if these things can take Megadeth and Tool at 4000 decibles, then they sure work for me.

I'd also like to point out that I don't work for Bose, and am not defending my purchase, as I can certainly afford a pair of $5000 speakers if I felt the need for them. I just think they sound good!

zaphod · « **Reply #23 on:** August 22, 2005, 04:58:20 pm »

No need to defend your purchase. You're the only one that needs to be happy with your purchase.

The article used a rather broad brush to paint the Bose enthusiasts but that has generally been my experience with many of this group in the past. Because Bose markets the bejesus out of its stuff in a wide array of magazines, that is the brand that most everyone is familiar with. Especially the person who just wants speakers and to do no research. My experience has been there is little middleground with regard to Bose: you either love 'em or you hate them.

I had a pair for a year (roommates) in my college dorm many years ago and they sounded fine. They also went loud. But they were all mid-range.

I love my 10-yearold Paradigms with my H/K receiver for my main living area. Also have some Polks driven by an Onkyo (bedroom), and an all Technics setup relegated to the basement. When I eventually upgrade/replace, I will keep with Paradigms and either H/K or Onkyo, just because of my experience with them.

I will also say that the center channel in a HT setup is the MOST important speaker. That you replaced this Bose speaker, Zakk, with an Athena speaks volumes.

Zakk · « **Reply #24 on:** August 22, 2005, 05:20:15 pm »

Hehe I also replaced the sub with an Athena (made by Energy). Maybe I am defending something I don't really believe in!

I also used to be a huge fan of JBL car speakers (20 years ago) and Cerwin Vegas. Don't think I'd buy either now.

finsailor · « **Reply #25 on:** August 22, 2005, 05:39:30 pm »

That's right. We are all different. As long as you are happy with them, it's fine.

Or is it?

Thats what I thought 10 years ago, when I upgraded my pc soundcard to a soundblaster 64.
What a difference, I was all WOW.
Same thing happened when I bought my first "hifi" speakers Kef 104/2.
All my music sounded so different. I could dry my hair in front of the bass.

You all sound like you are pro's in this area, so I won't give any advise, but different sound systems can be very different, like driving a car or a motorbike. You know what I mean.

These speakers are awesome:
http://www.genelecusa.com/support/selection.php
Listen to them, if you have a chance.
and these
http://www.gradient.fi/products/

Other speakers I've had over the years:
cerwin vega e315 were great, when played loud.
kef 104/2 had great sound, but are too directional in a small room.
My current wharfedale speakers are great too.

and I have allways been very happy with my H/K receivers.

pointdablame · « **Reply #26 on:** August 22, 2005, 08:29:32 pm »

It really does come down to making sure you are happy... that is all that matters

I still don't like when people scream from the rooftop about how BOSE is the best speaker out there, but if they can't tell the difference and are happy, so be it.

The funny thing is though, if BOSE were reasonably priced, they'd be in a much different light in my eyes. I got the bose cubes in my bedroom currently as a hand me down from family, and if the speakers were a few hundred bucks, I'd be very pleased with them. The fact that I got them for NOTHING makes me even more pleased with them.... I know they aren't the best, and I can't listen to them for hours if I walk in my room after listening to the Ohms

but for the most part they get the job done. It's just the high price and low quality combination that makes me dislike them so much.

I still haven't hammered down what receivers I really like though. I don't have the cash right now for an amp/preamp combo, so I've been using combo receivers for years now in my bedroom. I went from low end Sony which I despised (but it was very cheap... ya get what you pay for) to a Kenwood to the Pioneer that is in my room right now. The pioneer works just fine with the BOSE for a decent setup, but it's showing its age.

The only problem is..... a nice new recevier would demand some nice new speakers..... and that would cut into my arcade budget...... which has already been destroyed by college tuition bills LMAO.

JB · « **Reply #27 on:** August 22, 2005, 10:58:30 pm »

Quote from: pointdablame on August 22, 2005, 11:26:22 am

Quote from: JB on August 22, 2005, 04:11:25 am
Quote from: pointdablame on August 22, 2005, 01:39:31 am
But when you sit in a room with good speakers, and listen to the music..... and then try to talk to the person next to you only to realize that you can't even hear your own voice..... is something I (and everyone I've shown) never forgets.

...

Loud is one thing (and extremely easy).... music that is so loud, yet clear enough that you don't even realize it's loud is something entirely different.
Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm the only person in the world that actually likes NOT being deaf.

what did you say???

*chuckles*

Quote

[

Seriously though, my point is that clarity is hard. I don't always "crank it to 11" I do enjoy my sense of hearing. My point was that people into audio (and just average joes) will crank it every now and then. The difference between cheap speakers and good speakers is that the clarity is still there.

Point taken. Just seems to be an overemphasis on volume in a lot of audio discussions.

And I don't crank it up. My ears are too sensitive.
A lot of people's comfortable listening level causes me pain.

Baker535 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 23, 2005, 12:31:47 am »

Wow you guys have been busy... I was trying to avoid the whole Bose argument, but oh well, Bose happens. My personal opinion is that they are a very well marketed brand that is a lot more money than they should be. I do understand some people love the ultra compact form and it really does make for an impressive selling point at the mass market level.

Also when you compare them to similar products in those environments they actually do sound decent to most people who don't get to listen to $5k, $20k, $50k $100k+ setups (I have, www.progressiveaudio.com is my local hifi store). So for the average consumer a little more cost gets them the big sound and wow factor in such a neat little package. Don't confuse big sound for quality sound though. You are kidding yourself if you think that a small cube and subwoofer system is going to produce anything close to resembling a sonic midrange, which is where a lot of the fine detail occurs in most music.

For my situation I do think I'm going to go with the Outlaw, from what I have been reading it sounds like a great preamp. Only real negative I saw was it has DVI switching instead of HDMI, but since I'm not routing video around it's no big deal. Most manufactures are probably going to conform to HDMI because it can carry an audio signal and it's a little smaller form factor, considering when the design phase took place I can understand their decision for DVI. I also like it's a very transparent piece of equipment and it should pair well with my amp. My 602's have a slight warm sound to them which I absolutely love and I don't want them changed in anyway if possible. In fact a cleaner preamp should help them produce a little more detail than what they are currently creating.

I also saw the suggestion for Sunfire which I REALLY like. My Advent (15" 300 watt RMS, 18 Hz) sub actually is powered by a Sunfire amp and I am really impressed at the whole setup. Especially for the price I payed. I just didn't think I could afford anything from their range but after looking around I think I could swing a closeout or a year old preamp model.

I have stumbled across a pretty nice forum to lurk in for some info as well, if anyone else is interested it's http://www.hometheaterforum.com

They seem pretty good over there and no one really sticks out as an equipment snob from what I've seen. Actually there are some nice topics about waiting for another year while the new DVD formats come out because the industry is still deciding on complimentary audio encoding with the new storage space. Personally my DVD player is fine for another few years, I don't even want to begin dealing with that decision. I don't watch the extra crap that comes on the multi disc DVD's anyways. Why do I care if it's all on one disc... also unless I get a huge room devoted for home theater 5.1 is good enough for me! If I could afford the room needed for a proper 7.1 setup and a dedicated projection screen I wouldn't care about price anyways...

If anyone else wants to add any other suggestions, feel free... thanks to those who have contributed!

-baker

pointdablame · « **Reply #29 on:** August 23, 2005, 12:59:21 am »

Quote from: Baker535 on August 23, 2005, 12:31:47 am

(I have, www.progressiveaudio.com is my local hifi store).

wow, I'm jealous

Quote

For my situation I do think I'm going to go with the Outlaw, from what I have been reading it sounds like a great preamp. Only real negative I saw was it has DVI switching instead of HDMI, but since I'm not routing video around it's no big deal. Most manufactures are probably going to conform to HDMI because it can carry an audio signal and it's a little smaller form factor, considering when the design phase took place I can understand their decision for DVI. I also like it's a very transparent piece of equipment and it should pair well with my amp. My 602's have a slight warm sound to them which I absolutely love and I don't want them changed in anyway if possible. In fact a cleaner preamp should help them produce a little more detail than what they are currently creating.

Please let me know what you think of the Outlaw. Like I said, I've only heard it in-store, and that can sometimes be deceiving. I'd like to hear what someone who ISN'T trying to sell me one thinks of it

I've only heard good things though.

Quote

I also saw the suggestion for Sunfire which I REALLY like. My Advent (15" 300 watt RMS, 18 Hz) sub actually is powered by a Sunfire amp and I am really impressed at the whole setup. Especially for the price I payed. I just didn't think I could afford anything from their range but after looking around I think I could swing a closeout or a year old preamp model.

That was my suggestion. My dad is a big fan of Bob Carver, and I guess it rubbed off since I wound up getting a used Sunfire a while back.

Quote

If I could afford the room needed for a proper 7.1 setup and a dedicated projection screen I wouldn't care about price anyways...

Ain't that the damn truth

I'm praying for a great job once I graduate college. I'm sure it'll come in handy for paying bills and getting a house and all.... but I'm mostly hoping it can swing me lots of arcade machines and a nice home theater room

Zero_Hour · « **Reply #30 on:** August 23, 2005, 11:51:02 am »

Since I (mis)spent my youth hanging out in arcades, and blowing out the headphones of countless walkmen, I suspect that most High-End audio would be wasted on my shattered ears. Still, with all the talk of speakers, I'm amazed that nobody suggestedthese.

ScoopKW · « **Reply #31 on:** August 23, 2005, 11:10:44 pm »

Seeing this is a BUILD YOUR OWN site, I'm very surprised nobody mentioned nutshellhifi.com or madisound.com

Surely there is another audiophile here who has transmission line speakers...?

For those of you asking which hardware is the best for you, tell the "mine is best" crowd to pound sand.

The most important piece of your sound system is the room it sits in. The second most important piece is your speakers. Everything else is a distant third.

Get your hands on a simple tube amplifier and test various speakers at home. Get the speakers that sound best for your room. (Better yet, build them, so you have an idea about speakers.) Then worry about which amp works the best for you.

Basing your audio system on an amplifier is like basing a computer system on a modem.

Also, forget the price tags. I've seen some $10,000 speakers that come with $200 crossovers. Price means nothing. Most of the cost of a good set of speakers is crossovers and cabinetry. Any good drivers (Vifa, Seas, etc.) will fill the bill.

ScoopKW

If you're into pounding bass, none of this applies to you. Get the loudest thing possible and invest in Beltone stock.

Zakk · « **Reply #32 on:** August 23, 2005, 11:39:25 pm »

Pound sand?

Well, yeah I guess I really should be looking at throwing out all my equipment and stringing copper wire into two halfs of a coconut and calling it a stereo. Maybe then I'll go out and buy a $20 sanyo amp (since the amp doesn't matter) and hook it up. I'm sure that would sound just as good as anything we currently have.

Silverwind · « **Reply #33 on:** August 23, 2005, 11:41:10 pm »

I have always been interested in DIY speakers.. typically more bang for the buck.. especially if you already have the tools..

The speakers I will probably go with for my home theater are from GR Research.

ScoopKW · « **Reply #34 on:** August 24, 2005, 12:05:13 am »

Uh, Zakk, a simple tube amplifier is going to run you well over $1,000.

I never suggested that the amplifier doesn't matter, only that it is a distant third -- behind your listening area and your speakers.

Take my friend, Bob, as an example...

Bob has an audio setup that EASILY costs 10 times what mine does. (And, mind you, my crossovers alone cost more than most people have in their entire rig.) He really takes his system seriously -- endlessly tuning his four speakers -- each of which costs about the same as a car.

Bob also lives in a Concrete Block System house with 10 foot ceilings. It doesn't matter that he's got tens of thousands of dollars in audio equipment. He's listening to music in a concrete bunker. NOTHING is going sound good.

I've got 18' foot ceilings in my main listening area, and I use speakers that most people would consider small (or at least underkill). But when I play music, the room comes alive.

If I told you I used XYZ preamps, YYZ amps, ZZT speakers and ABC speaker wire -- IT WOULD NOT MATTER ONE BIT.

Your place isn't the same as my place. In fact, if I ever move, I'll probably have to sell a lot of my equipment and start from scratch.

Audio is a maddening hobby -- mainly because of audiophiles. In one corner, you have the gadget crowd that fawns over massive price tags, decibel ratings and impedance. In the other corner, you have freaks like Bob, who tune their speakers to pink noise, and have a system that has massive tonal range, but no soul.

I generally stay away from audioboards because on these two groups of dolts.

Executive summary -- whatever pleases your ear is fine.

But if you want to have the BEST listening experience possible, consider your room first, your speakers second, and everything else last. (Most people can't tell the difference between $1/foot speaker wire and $20/foot speaker wire.)

ScoopKW

richms · « **Reply #35 on:** August 24, 2005, 02:14:49 am »

I have several friends that love there bose sytems, I cant stand them. When the "sub" goes to 200Hz, you can locate it, and the mini cubes start at 280ish, so theres a whole 80Hz missing at the lower midrange. Plus you cant get decent SPL out of a 2" mid-tweeter.

I have being looking at a preamp/processor/whatever you want to call it - looks like the only way to go is a reciever to get all the bells and whistles. But its still hard to find information online about the way they operate short of the buzzwords - some recievers cant even handle the bass redirection properly for people who choose not to compromise there system with a subwoofer.

ScoopKW · « **Reply #36 on:** August 24, 2005, 09:01:45 am »

Pre amps can either turn your livingroom into a symphony, or give your speakers more buzz than the coffee I'm drinking.

I've found that with pre's -- the more friends you have with them, the better. Borrow at least a dozen of them and have a preamp party.

Pick something that you listen to OFTEN, and make sure it's complex. Classical is always good. If you're into rock, choose something with as many layers as say, Dark Side of the Moon. Don't test a pre-amp listening to a power trio.

I usually test my system with Floyd and West Coast sound -- like Steely Dan. Because that's what my ears like best.

Oh -- one thing about preamps. Nothing will make your Amplifier sound worse than a good preamp. If you're *that* into music, find the resident audio-geek in your town and listen to what vacuum tubes and transformers can do.

I'm glad you're not using the subwoofer. I wouldn't so much as let a sub inside my house -- throws off the entire listening experience. If you have good speakers, the crossovers will take care of all the bass you need. And REAL bass will move *through* you, not bounce *off* you. (Hard to describe, but you'll know it when you feel it.)

For my money, this is where transmission line speakers shine -- bass response. By creating resonance within the speaker itself, bass is clean and bright without that "thumpa thumpa" flatness that I hear in every over-powered car stereo in North America.

(Kind of like the "bass boost" buttons on amplifiers. Never use them. Better yet, get a good amp.)

Incidentally, the reason subs are so popular is that GOOD woofers are very expensive. (A good 8-inch woofer will run about $150, then you'll need a $300 coil in the crossover to make that $150 woofer sound better than the speaker in your PC case.)

Subwoofer fans usually think it is acceptable to shoot the *really* low frequencies out of a cannon than worry about the 20-80 hertz range. As far as "bass for the buck" goes, I suppose it's a sound strategy. Subwoofers are cheap. Good woofers and crossovers are ridiculous. I'm more interested in a smooth bass curve.

Getting back to testing a preamp (or your whole system, for that matter):

My favorite way to test systems for classic rockers is to put in Dark Side of the Moon -- Great Gig in the Sky. There are three voiceunders on that track that are so faint they may as well be subliminal.

"And I am not frightened of dying, any time will do, I
don't mind. Why should I be frightened of dying?
There's no reason for it, you've gotta go sometime."

"If you can hear this whispering you are dying."

"I never said I was frightened of dying."

If you can hear them, you've got your highs and midrange down, and then it's just a question of bass preference. I usually tune my speakers using the female soloist from Great Gig (always use a female voice for tuning speakers, IMHO) Keep tweaking until it sounds like she's 10 feet behind your listening room wall.

Then to make sure I've got what I want, I put in Steely Dan's Aja and make sure Donald and Walter sound good, too. Finally, I drop in Beethoven's 6th -- probably the best way to see the interplay between high treble and low bass.

From then on, if the music sounds bad, it's probably the musician's fault. Not my equipment.

ScoopKW

PS -- Silverwind -- I just looked at GR Audio, and I'd pass. They don't tell you what's in the crossover, nor the crossover schematics. They only mention response levels. I'd go to www.madisound.com and look at the Audax AV kit if that's what you're into. Prices are about the same, and you'll *probably* get better sound. (There are no substitutes for hooking both sets to your system and testing them. Usually, that's too cost inefficient.)

EDIT -- Added the above advice for Silverwind.

Baker535 · « **Reply #37 on:** August 25, 2005, 12:27:30 am »

Those are some great points you bring up Scoop, thanks for reminding me about the critical room situation. I know exactly what you mean. Unfortunately at this point in life and with the limited resources at my disposal I have to have a system that is the jack of all trades. This means music and movies, so having a nicely built preamp for processing multi channels is still essential. Believe me I would love going tube and getting a nice two speaker only reference system if I could ever get a dedicated room for music listening, which I don't think will happen anytime soon...

Still, a nice reminder about the room. I will have to rethink about putting hardwood floors in my new place. I completely forgot what that would do to my audio. My friend has a nicer setup than mine, but it doesn't sound nearly as great as it could because of his ranch style house with hardwood floors. It's a damn shame too seeing all that equipment not being used to its full potential.

I'm still very happy with my B&W speakers so they are at least staying around for another 5 years. I'll make sure to learn a bit more about crossovers when the time comes to replace them. I must admit that the technical details of speaker electronics still escapes me, for now I just go with what my ears tell me and it's been working out quite well.

For my musical selections I have several genre's that I love. There are a few pieces I know so well that they always serve as my reference materials. Pink Floyd DSOTM is definitely included in the mix, pretty much any song off that album. I also like to mix it up with some Dave Matthews Band because I am a huge fan of Carter Beauford's drumming and I love how his kit/style sounds (I'm a drummer too). A little bit of techno is a nice stress test too for the speed and range so It's mandatory I throw in some BT. Classical music is usually Vivaldi's Four Seasons. Though, Bach's harpsichord concertos are a real audio treat. I really love the unique sound it produces especially when you have 4 of them going at once, it's fun to pick them out individually!

-baker

JB · « **Reply #38 on:** August 25, 2005, 12:42:32 am »

Quote from: Baker535 on August 25, 2005, 12:27:30 am

Still, a nice reminder about the room. I will have to rethink about putting hardwood floors in my new place. I completely forgot what that would do to my audio. My friend has a nicer setup than mine, but it doesn't sound nearly as great as it could because of his ranch style house with hardwood floors. It's a damn shame too seeing all that equipment not being used to its full potential.

There's a practical solution here... Involves a truck, a ski mask, and the cover of night.

Upgrade your own setup AND you don't have to cry over your friend's unfulfilled hardware anymore!

ScoopKW · « **Reply #39 on:** August 25, 2005, 12:28:42 pm »

Naturally, you don't want to have that friend over anymore. Especially after you've lifted his audio system.

Hey, I see you upgraded all your equipment to the stuff *I* used to have...

Hey, that scratch in your amp is exactly the same as the scratch in *my* former amp...

ScoopKW

pointdablame · « **Reply #40 on:** August 25, 2005, 12:30:24 pm »

Quote from: ScoopKW on August 25, 2005, 12:28:42 pm

Naturally, you don't want to have that friend over anymore. Especially after you've lifted his audio system.

Hey, I see you upgraded all your equipment to the stuff *I* used to have...

Hey, that scratch in your amp is exactly the same as the scratch in *my* former amp...

ScoopKW

yup... that situation would NOT end well haha

Silverwind · « **Reply #41 on:** August 26, 2005, 10:43:59 am »

Quote from: ScoopKW on August 24, 2005, 09:01:45 am

PS -- Silverwind -- I just looked at GR Audio, and I'd pass. They don't tell you what's in the crossover, nor the crossover schematics. They only mention response levels. I'd go to www.madisound.com and look at the Audax AV kit if that's what you're into. Prices are about the same, and you'll *probably* get better sound. (There are no substitutes for hooking both sets to your system and testing them. Usually, that's too cost inefficient.)

EDIT -- Added the above advice for Silverwind.

The components are:
Alpha Core foil inductors, Links resistors, Axon caps with Sonicap by-pass
caps, and there is a Sonicap upgrade available.

And you put them together yourself, they send a diagram with them when you purchase. I searched high and low and could not find any negative comments on them.

ScoopKW · « **Reply #42 on:** August 26, 2005, 08:10:24 pm »

Hmm... I didn't find that on the site.

Those are certainly good components. And I'm sure they're properly matched to the drivers, so no worries...

ScoopKW


Main	Restorations	Software	Audio/Jukebox/MP3	Everything Else	Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements	Monitor/Video	GroovyMAME	Merit/JVL Touchscreen	Meet Up	Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing	Woodworking	Software Support Forums	Consoles	Project Arcade	Reviews
Automated Projects	Artwork	Frontend Support Forums	Pinball	Forum Discussion	Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board	controls.dat	Linux	Miscellaneous Arcade	Wiki Discussion	Old Archives
Lightguns	Arcade1Up	Try the site in https mode		Site News


Unread posts \| New Replies \| Recent posts \| Rules \| Chatroom \| Wiki \| File Repository \| RSS \| Submit news