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Author Topic: Newb Starter Guide  (Read 4260 times)

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tribalredfox

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Newb Starter Guide
« on: August 14, 2005, 04:58:08 pm »
Edit: Many of you all aren't ready for individual opinions that conflict with your own.  So a majority of this has been deleted accordingly.  I had to leave in most of the vendors info as it just needs to be said.

Ya'll will be happy to note that I am erasing this account!  I was looking for a website with sound, intelligent, free-thinking people who'd listen to the opinions of others, share their ideas, and come together for common goals while being free of scrutiny.  I'm sure you people exist, but you weren't the ones who were vocal in this thread.


Parts Vendors

All these will be based out of first hand experience.  This is not a comprehensive list but I'll give you what I know.

Good Vendors

    www.mamemarquees.com
    For control panels and marquees I'd suggest these guys above all others.  Control panels are extrememly durable and the marquees are printed on great material.  I'm not sure about the side-art but viewing their specs they also seem to be the best bet.
    Additionally, they agreed to my terms not to have my artwork reproduced or distributed.  If you want a one-fo-a-kind marquee then you need a trustworthy company.
    I recommend this as a one-stop-shop for marquees and control panels.  On top of all this, competitive prices.  Nice.

    www.dreamarcades.com
    I'm going to shoot one negative in here first.  The t-molding doesn't match the color of the buttons for some colors.  I've been notified that this is because they order some parts from Happs.  My blue t-molding is a dark blue and my buttons are a fantastically colored bright blue.  It worked in my situation but it might not for everyone.
    That being said, these guys have excellent customer service.  Most of the emails I sent out were replied to within a day.  I had a joystick with a broken microswitch that I didn't catch until after making the control panel.  I didnt' know who was at fault but I emailed them any ways and asked if they could send me a microswitch.  They did at no cost to myself!  Score.
    For beginners, they offer buttons with built-in microswitches to make things really easy to hook up.  You can get entire control panel kits with 2 joysticks and 12 buttons.  If you need more buttons just get a ten-pack of buttons too.
    All the parts aren't the best quality.  They do sell decent quality parts though and they are very affordable.  You can get many of the same parts that Happs sells but if you're looking for the best joysticks then I'd go straight to Happs.  This is definitely the easiest route though.  Again, a one-stop-shop if you need an 8-way joystick, buttons, and t-molding.  If you want hot pink on any of those then this is your only legitamite option.

    www.localarcade.com
    Great artwork on this site.  This is definitely the best collection available.  Use vector images for better quality at higher resolutions.
    [/list]

    Bad Vendors:  I didn't like them... make your own opinions though[/u]
      www.groovygamegear.com
      These guys sell the keywiz game interface.  Their website is antiquated and doesn't reflect many changes they've made to their product offerings.  If you look, they say they don't sell USB interfaces yet they have 4 different offerings called the GP-Wiz.
      Customer service was poor in my experience.  I sent an email asking for a driver and got one back saying my keywiz didn't need one as it runs as if it was a USB controller.  That's fine but nowhere did it say that.  I emailed them back and said that was missing some documentation and asked if I could be emailed, snailmailed, something.  I received a a response that said it wasn't likely that the package didn't come with the documentation.  Rule of thumb for potential and current business owners:  Don't say the customer is wrong, especially when you're the one who erred.
      The product though... sucks.  It does what it needs to generally.  I like a lot of things about it actually.  The quality blows.  I plugged it into the usb port and the computer didn't recognize it.  This is what led me to believe it required a driver actually.  Upon looking at it, there is a component that wasn't making contact on the circuit board in one place.  The component was still making contact in two other points though it nearly came off the circuit board when I touched it with my finger.  The circuit board actually arrived well packaged but  this component was so poorly attached to the board that it probably came apart somewhere during transpotation any ways.
      The component doesn't look hard to replace but if you're going to solder something you might as well just buy a cheap controller and hack that.

      [/list]

      If anyone wants to add anything you probably shouldn't... appearantly everything that's to be known already is known.  It's all in a single book, regarded as the literal traslation of the Arcade Gods.  Don't bother adding anything new as your ideas are stupid.  I know, you probably think they're good and I would be the first to say I like innovative thinking... but they will not be regard as being intelligent if your post count isn't high enough.  So spam these threads and increase your popularity and you'll soon be on your way to Arcade Guru status as long as you discount what new people add as you do it.
      « Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 03:25:31 am by tribalredfox »

      CheffoJeffo

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #1 on: August 14, 2005, 05:19:42 pm »
      Wow ... tribalredfox replaced the whole board with a single, exhaustive and authoritative post ... why is it that Saint thought a book would be a good idea -- it took this guy a few paragraphs.

      Well, since it seems to be troll time, I'm gonna go get a nice cold drink and watch the feeding frenzy (wonder what RandyT is gonna say?).

      Cheers.

      EDIT: To any newbies who might be considering following this as a real guide, don't ... it is full of bad information.

      DO search the boards. DO read Project Arcade. DO ask questions (just post in the appropriate forum).

      DON'T take advice from trolls.
      « Last Edit: August 14, 2005, 05:39:03 pm by CheffoJeffo »
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      Bones

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #2 on: August 14, 2005, 05:31:33 pm »
      This is probably not in the correct forum if there is no accompanying project.

      Living the delusional lifestyle.

      tribalredfox

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #3 on: August 14, 2005, 06:03:22 pm »
      deleted
      « Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 03:26:07 am by tribalredfox »

      CheffoJeffo

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #4 on: August 14, 2005, 06:24:47 pm »
      If you think there's something that would help first timers start it up then add it.  There's really no need to rip.

      I'm sorry ... I REALLY thought that you were trolling ... after all, anybody whose first post here rips vendors and contains bad information about their products is just asking for the troll label.

      As far as any "bad" information then just point it out and add a counter-point.

      I'll let RandyT address the GGG stuff, but here is a start:

      Quote
      Use nice round numbers for building.

      If you are building your own cabinet, have a look at where the unit has to go and what you'll be putting inside (e.g. the monitor). Round numbers are nice, but stuff's gotta fit (who was that guy who had to cut off the left side of his cab to get the monitor in?).

      Quote
      I don't recommend fixing up an old cabinet for your first attempt.

      While a matter of opinion, using an existing cabinet is often the easiest course of action, your sanding trauma aside.

      Quote
      Building guide

      There isn't one.

      Well, PA is a good place to start and does address the complete process. Spystyle and others have guides as well.

      Quote
      Bad Vendors:  Don't use these guys

            www.groovygamegear.com

      I'm going to let others handle this ... did you even search on GGG or KeyWiz before posting this ?

      Quote
      Wiring:  Barrier strips can be expensive.  You can simply put screws into a block of wood and use that.  Just twist the two wires together and screw them down.  Also, you can write on the block of wood so you can label everything.

      You COULD do this, but since most newb mistakes seem to be wiring-related, I would advise spending the $3.

      Quote
      Fixing scratches:  Plastic wood.  Wood filler is inferior.  Use plastic wood.  If there are too many long, deep, wide gashes then you might just have to live with some uneven spots with your final project less you spend half a month sanding and filling.

      Bondo or an epoxy-based filler.

      Quote
      Then sand it with increasingly higher grit beofre putting a first coat down.  If you're building one from scratches then you don't need those last steps.

      Prep requirements depend pretty heavily on the materials being used (but if nice MDF, then OK).

      Quote
      Glue:  Wood glue isn't strong enough.

      Don't know what kind of wood glue you are using, but the wood glue on my Galaga holds just fine. As does the wood glue in my work bench. As does the wood glue they use to make furniture.

      That's enough for me for now ... if indeed your intention was to create a guide for newbs, then that is great ... you just present so many opinions and questionable statements as if they were facts.

      Sorry for the misunderstanding ... although I'm still waiting for RandyT to show up ...

      Cheers.
      « Last Edit: August 14, 2005, 06:44:05 pm by CheffoJeffo »
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      TheSnail

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #5 on: August 14, 2005, 06:37:27 pm »
      Sorry but it has to be said

      The keywiz is an amazing product.

      When my friend and I built his cab we used one and had no problem. I realy liked it!

      tribalredfox

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #6 on: August 14, 2005, 06:50:33 pm »
      deleted
      « Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 03:26:25 am by tribalredfox »

      tribalredfox

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #7 on: August 14, 2005, 07:01:28 pm »
      The area circled is the component that wasn't making contact.  It has since been fixed with a little solder.



      The part was not attached well at all.  Anyone who owns a wiz should be very cautious with this component to assure the controller works.

      If a single contact point becomes detached then you can probably physically push it back together with some pressure.  Make sure you don't push off to one side because you may accidently push the whole thing off!
      « Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 03:26:59 am by tribalredfox »

      CheffoJeffo

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #8 on: August 14, 2005, 07:05:35 pm »
      There is a lot of info out there about GGG.  My point is that if anyone wants to go this way then I caution them.

      And my point is that you have enough questionable information that I caution them ... for example, your rant at GGG based on them not supplying documentation about the USB-connectivity of the KeyWiz is bizarre ... can you tell me why ?

      EDIT: While I was writing this, you posted the answer ... that is not a KeyWiz ...

      Your comment that Supers are the best joysticks is kinda funny ... wouldn't it depend heavily on what kind of games you want to play ?  And 49-ways are now a good solution for all kinds of joystick games.

      Happs is superior because of their leaf switches ?

      Cheers.

      EDIT2: Mods:  If I have crossed the line of thread-crapping, then please remove my posts.
      « Last Edit: August 14, 2005, 07:11:53 pm by CheffoJeffo »
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      tribalredfox

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #9 on: August 14, 2005, 07:33:03 pm »
      deleted
      « Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 03:27:17 am by tribalredfox »

      CheffoJeffo

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #10 on: August 14, 2005, 07:39:00 pm »
      One example where they really exceed competitors is in their leaf switches.

      I guess the question I have is "Happs sells leaf switches ?"

      Cheers.

      EDIT: As tribalredfox points out, they do sell leafs ... never noticed that before. Mea culpa.
      « Last Edit: August 14, 2005, 08:30:34 pm by CheffoJeffo »
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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #11 on: August 14, 2005, 07:54:57 pm »
      As my final post in this thread, I figured some useful links for issues raised so far would be a good idea:


      Why you shouldn't mangle a classic cabinet:

      http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_manifesto.shtml


      For Joystick info, see Retroblast's Joystick Reviews:

      http://www.retroblast.com/hardware.html


      For encoder info (including the differences between KeyWiz and GP-Wiz, as well as GP-Wiz49), see Tiger-Heli's Encoder page:

      http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/index.htm


      For cabinet designs, see Jakobud's site:

      http://www.jakobud.com


      For info on making a good MDF joint:

      http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,30659.0.html


      For a single page that contains most of the info that you will need to get started (including the important link to the main site):

      http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=19049.0


      Cheers.

      EDITED to remove smart-alec leafswitch comment.



      « Last Edit: August 14, 2005, 08:29:49 pm by CheffoJeffo »
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      tribalredfox

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #12 on: August 14, 2005, 08:27:59 pm »
      deleted
      « Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 03:27:45 am by tribalredfox »

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #13 on: August 14, 2005, 10:54:47 pm »
      I love my GP-Wix Max and my Omni-Sticks from GGG.  Any questions I had for Randy were answered promptly and professionally.  To each his own...it almost comes down to a "Ford vs. Chevy" type of arguement.  Read the boards, ask tons of questions, decide what you think will work for YOUR needs and go with it.  Happy gaming!

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #14 on: August 14, 2005, 11:30:54 pm »
      I was ignoring this thread, but I got curious when it started racking up the post count. Now I can see why. I've just got a few things to say on the matter.

      There is a sort of etiquette involved in the hobby, and gutting a perfectly good classic would be awful. Granted some games weren't very good and most people wouldn't miss them. For in many cases, there are no excuses. If you do it, then don't tell anyone here. You WILL get blasted for it (and rightly so). This hobby is based on a respect for video gaming history. Try to show it in your actions.

      One person's positive experience with a particular method/ vendor/ product doesn't make it the best ever. Conversely, one negative experience doesn't make it crap. The whole point of this forum is to amass a knowledge base derived from multiple people's experiences. Likewise, "the book" is based on that collective knowledge. Don't make one personal judgment and try to pass it off as fact.

      I think that's most of it...


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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #15 on: August 15, 2005, 02:25:03 am »
      Many of the truely vocal members here are arcade purists.  That's fine.  That's your thing.  Your ideoligy shouldn't effect other people though.

      Gaming is a hobby and should be treated as such, not as a religion.

      I'm not saying anyone should destroy a perfectly good arcade classic... I'm saying it's someone's right to do as they choose.  There doesn't need to be excuses.

      So I'm saying it... I took a torn up Tron cabinet and turned it into something I liked.  Blast me for it... go crazy.

      I value my individuality, my right to choose, etc.  I value your right to have opinions.  So if you think what I did was wrong, that's fine.  You can even tell me it was.  Just don't cross the line between that and verbal assault (which no one has done so far).

      Many single personal judgements are needed to form true knowledge.  My advice might be worth 2 cents but together our advice is priceless.

      As such, I suggest that someone should make an "attack tribalredfox" thread somewhere.  You few, or many, might think my advice sucks but it seems many of you have forgetten that first timers aren't enthusiasts.  They are normal people who just want to relive a bit of their younger days and have a neat piece of furniture that doubles as a conversation piece.

      As no one wants to throw out some advice I ask the moderators to delete this thread.  I assumed that people weren't afraid of one person's opinions and it appears I might have erred in that logic.

      Thanks to you few who posted counterpoints for GGG.  I probably did end up with an item of inferior quality then what they usually pump out but I did end up with an item of inferior quality.
      « Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 03:29:01 am by tribalredfox »

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #16 on: August 15, 2005, 04:25:59 am »
      ???

      Hello, I'm Leonard Nimoy. The following tale of alien encounters is true. And by true, I mean false. It's all lies. But they're entertaining lies, and in the end, isn't that the real truth? The answer...is no. Our story begins on a Monday morning, in a little town called.....

      Living the delusional lifestyle.

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #17 on: August 15, 2005, 07:13:36 am »
      So I'm saying it... I took a torn up Tron cabinet and turned it into something I liked.


      CheffoJeffo

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #18 on: August 15, 2005, 07:26:20 am »
      OK ... so one more post ...

      tribalredfox, I hope you come back and read this as a guest.

      I would like you to stay here and would like you to understand that, while I initially thought you were deliberately trolling (first post, not having read the newbie help thread, being a guide that absolutely slammed GGG and encouraged people to kill classics??), my subsequent responses to you were primarily designed to protect newbs who could have mislead by your guide.

      You indicate in your housecleaning of this thread that we (well, me, really) are not ready for new ideas and believe that there is only "my" way, which is the Project Arcade way. Nothing could be further from the truth (I have the book, I recommend the book, I've never built a machine following the book).

      I do know that some of what you recommended was a potential recipe for disaster. Some of what you said (e.g. stuff that I didn't argue with) is good advice that is definitely useful to the newbie (e.g. foam rollers ... that's what I use). It's not that your ideas are stupid, but rather that there are other, potentially better and easier ways to do things and that you left out some rather important issues. You did ask me to post counterpoints.

      I hesitate to characterize you, having only met you through this thread, but it sounds to me as if you have converted a Tron to a MAME machine and that it was not a particularly good experience (e.g. you had to try a bunch of different things, had trouble with the cab repair, didn't get the initial results you expected, etc.). If you had found the boards here earlier, you probably would have had a much better experience (although you definitely would take abuse about converting the Tron).

      Sorry to see you go like this ....

      Cheers.





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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #19 on: August 16, 2005, 10:17:57 am »
      hmmm, im still trying to find the purpose of this post.  was it just to be a sarcastic retard?  im all about sarcasm, but shouldnt this be in the Retard Board or something?  i thought we had one of those.  not blasting your thoughts tribalredfox, just trying to show you that your post doesnt really have a point outside of just complaining and whining. 

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #20 on: August 16, 2005, 10:25:24 am »
      hmmm, im still trying to find the purpose of this post.  was it just to be a sarcastic retard?  im all about sarcasm, but shouldnt this be in the Retard Board or something?  i thought we had one of those.  not blasting your thoughts tribalredfox, just trying to show you that your post doesnt really have a point outside of just complaining and whining. 

      To be fair, I was rather hard on him and I know that he was really disappointed and hurt by the response to his post -- he really wanted to help people out.

      I have e-mailed him off-board to ask him to come back and talk about his specific project so that folks can learn from what he has gone through, as opposed to leaving it at the train-wreck that is this thread.

      We'll see what happens.

      Cheers.
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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #21 on: August 16, 2005, 01:05:57 pm »
      Hmmm....where to start....

      I don't like posting to people who aren't part of the discussion anymore, but I think I probably should for the sake of others who might be reading this.

      I guess I'll start with the quality "issue".  I've stated this before, and I'll state it again:  We do a 100% QC on every board before it is shipped to a customer.  That includes plugging it in and testing each and every input to make sure it is functional.  Why do we do this?  The first is that I personally hate the disappointment I feel when I buy something that comes to me non-functioning and I don't want to inflict that on my customers.  The other reason is that printed circuit boards are mass-produced items, and every once in a while one comes through with a trace connected to something it shouldn't be.  We find them this way and they get repaired or scrapped.  If you've ever wondered why you don't see many complaints about problems with our products, it's not because people aren't using them.  It's because those problems are weeded out before they get into the hands of our customers.

      A general word of advice that applies to any and all electronics:  Use caution when handling them.  Be careful not to bend any of the components protruding from the board, and if they do get bent, and they are not shorting a neighboring component, leave them bent.  Some of them are delicate and flexing them a couple of times can cause leads to break.

      I can't say for sure what happened here, as the individual did not contact me about this situation.  But if he had, we would have fixed him up, one way or the other.

      These guys sell the keywiz game interface.  Their website is antiquated and doesn't reflect many changes they've made to their product offerings.  If you look, they say they don't sell USB interfaces yet they have 4 different offerings called the GP-Wiz.

      I think this has been covered already, but to state it one more time, the GP-Wiz and the KeyWiz are 2 completely different products.  And, we never said we didn't sell USB interfaces, only that we don't believe USB Keyboard technology to be the best option for gaming controls.  USB gamepad technology, which is what the GP-Wiz is based on, works pretty darned well, and the two should not be confused.

      As for the website, yeah, it sucks.  That's why it won't be there for very long.  We are in the process of migrating to new store software, which will render the old store and site obsolete.  The only reason it's even still around is the lack of the current store's ability to have HTML in the product descriptions.  Well, that and the fact that it's sometimes difficult to find enough time to fill all the orders, do customer support, develop new products for the community and do web design, so the latter tends to suffer on occasion.

      Quote
      Customer service was poor in my experience.  I sent an email asking for a driver and got one back saying my keywiz didn't need one as it runs as if it was a USB controller.  That's fine but nowhere did it say that.

      Actually, I replied that there must be a misunderstanding and that the GP-Wiz didn't require software.  I also informed the individual of the free 3rd party options that allowed gamepad/joystick type devices, like the GP-Wiz, to send keystroke data. 

      Quote
      I emailed them back and said that was missing some documentation and asked if I could be emailed, snailmailed, something.  I received a a response that said it wasn't likely that the package didn't come with the documentation.  Rule of thumb for potential and current business owners:  Don't say the customer is wrong, especially when you're the one who erred.

      Here is the content of that message for those that may be interested:

      Hi XXXX,

      You might want to check the packing that came with the unit.  It's very unlikely that it was shipped without the instruction sheet.

      But if not, you should be able to print a copy from the attached.

      RandyT



      It's important to note that we have received a number of these types of requests in the past and almost always get a response back saying they had found the instructions in the box after making the request.  Just trying to save wear on someones ink cartridges, but the instructions were attached to the email regardless, a fact that seems to be conveniently omitted above.


      As for the sarcastic rant at the end about new folks not having anything to add... of course they do.  Constant infusion of new blood and ideas into the hobby are what makes it grow.  On the other hand, something that is new to some, is not only old news to others, but in some cases, just plain old news.  It's important for folks to read as much as possible and educate themselves before getting too far into things.  It's clear, and unfortunate, that this individual may not have understood a number of issues before jumping in.  Rather than reading and understanding the writings of the "gurus", incorrect assumptions were made, which resulted in frustration and most likely abandonment of his project.

      If my communications with him contributed to that frustration then I offer my apologies to him.   It wasn't intended that way.

      RandyT
      « Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 05:53:01 pm by RandyT »

      Bones

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #22 on: August 16, 2005, 05:46:43 pm »
      It should be noted that the original "un-edited" post was extremely long.

      The author (regardless of any opinions regarding his thoughts or ideas), invested considerable time putting it together. Seriously, it probably took him days.

      I mention this because I do feel he had some very good intentions at least when he originally posted his guide. His later reactions were probably emotionally motivated when he thought his time hadn't been appreciated.

      I still don

      Living the delusional lifestyle.

      CheffoJeffo

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #23 on: August 16, 2005, 05:49:59 pm »
      It should be noted that the original "un-edited" post was extremely long.

      The author (regardless of any opinions regarding his thoughts or ideas), invested considerable time putting it together. Seriously, it probably took him days.

      I mention this because I do feel he had some very good intentions at least when he originally posted his guide. His later reactions were probably emotionally motivated when he thought his time hadn't been appreciated.


      Yep ... that exactly why I tracked him down off-board ... didn't feel particularly good about chasing him away ...

      Cheers.
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      RayB

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      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #24 on: August 16, 2005, 07:18:53 pm »
      Localarcade is a "vendor"??

      I thought it was just a repository for fan-made artwork?
      NO MORE!!

      Kremmit

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      • Who the heck is that?
      Re: Newb Starter Guide
      « Reply #25 on: August 29, 2005, 04:12:58 pm »
      ???

      Hello, I'm Leonard Nimoy. The following tale of alien encounters is true. And by true, I mean false. It's all lies. But they're entertaining lies, and in the end, isn't that the real truth? The answer...is no. Our story begins on a Monday morning, in a little town called.....

      Dib has a big head.