Rubber Band Beliefs

[Dartful Dodger]

I was getting tired of high jacking other people philosophical threads so I figured I

[DrewKaree]

I'd think other religions could have this as well, although it may not take the same form.  Perhaps "enlightened" enough would be a term other religions might use, perhaps "orthodox" is another.  I can't say what other beliefs would consider it, but I'd bet it happens, in fact, I'd say the differing sects of other religions you see around point to this happening already.

[missioncontrol]

wouldn't it be better to just to make sure you do right from wrong and respect other people than torture yourself on whether you beleive in the right version of god?

[DrewKaree]

For those that believe it's fruitful to seek what their God would have them do, be it whatever religion you believe in, no.  What might seem to be "better" in your view may be lunacy, to them, in fact.  Funny isn't it - the difference in beliefs makes a person who they are, but the people who don't understand their beliefs see them as chasing shadows  and wasting energy on something that seems to them unobtainable or unknowable 

People.  We're a funny lot, aren't we?

[missioncontrol]

People.

[DrewKaree]

I tend to look at those people who tell everyone they're wrong and they're going straight to hell and wonder how many of them people talk to, because if you're "religious", that's the club you get lumped in with.

I just can't believe those nutjobs convinced the U.S. that if they didn't re-elect Bush, they'd be going to hell

Would you like to buy a pencil to support our church?

[missioncontrol]

I just can't believe those nutjobs convinced the U.S. that if they didn't re-elect Bush, they'd be going to hell

I thought that because I re-elected Bush I was going to hell...

guess I was talking to the wrong people........

[Dartful Dodger]

I thought that because I re-elected Bush I was going to hell...

guess I was talking to the wrong people........

You were talking to the same people. They were just at different stages on their path to/from enlightenment.

other religions might use, perhaps "orthodox"

Interesting.
I didn't think of that, when I first thought about this, I figured the guys that fly planes into a buildings were not typical Muslims, but I figured the Jews were immune to this kind of nonsense.

[DrewKaree]

Yeah, I like the people I go/went to church with telling me someone's "getting me used to their religion" when we talk about stuff and I bring 'em up.  It's like because someone's a Jew or a Mormon or an atheist or WHATEVER that they can't possibly have a sane thought in their head that you might agree with, and if they DO, it's all part of their "master plan" to convert you to their way of thinking and you just don't see it because you're so feeble minded

I've often wondered why there were different levels of Judaism, since you hear of "regular" Jews, the Hasidic Jews (who I know nothing of, other than their name, and what I've seen on TV), and Jewish Christians - they all seem somewhat opposed to the other groups depending on how their views conflict with the others.

If you look at the "enlightenment" angle, that's just another example, but it's like judging without judging - if that makes sense.  If you don't believe as someone else does, they may look at you as though you just haven't reached their stage of "enlightenment".  I've found those types of folks to be the most grating, since they generally are patronizing to you for being so UNenlightened, but MOST folks are patronizing when they feel they're more "spiritual" than another - almost like they're dealing with a retarded person or something.  Meh....'s ok.  I'll try to talk slower to them, since they aren't picking up what I'm putting down

[mr.Curmudgeon]

For those that believe it's fruitful to seek what their God would have them do, be it whatever religion you believe in, no.  What might seem to be "better" in your view may be lunacy, to them, in fact.

There are basic tenants present in all religions that are similar throughout; it's only when arguing about the specifics that most religions seem to forget about those basics tenants altogether.


mrC

[DrewKaree]

There are basic tenants present in all religions that are similar throughout; it's only when arguing about the specifics that most religions seem to forget about those basics tenants altogether.

Of all the.....whodathunk MrC would nail it down so well when speaking about religion!  Mebbe he's not going to hell aft....nevermind

I won't tell the ones who think you're going to hell that you said something I agree with.  I'd hate to let them know you were brainwashing me

[shmokes]

Any of you who do not worship me will burn in hell.

[ChadTower]

I am not a rubber band believer.  I am a daydream believer and a homecoming queen.

[shmokes]

It's like because someone's a Jew or a Mormon or an atheist or WHATEVER that they can't possibly have a sane thought in their head that you might agree with, and if they DO, it's all part of their "master plan" to convert you to their way of thinking

Hey.....how about that!  I've been two out of three of those things.  And a word of caution, the Mormon's (at least in Utah and Idaho) ARE singlemindedly bent on that "master plan" you mentioned... 

[ChadTower]

Master Plan - Jehovah's Witnesses

Me, I'm waiting for the movie version of what the smeg Jehovah did that has all these witnesses and how he managed to get away with it. 

[Grasshopper]

I would like books on evolution to have stickers on them saying that there is no conclusive proof that the world wasn't created by rubber bands.

[ChadTower]

I would like books on evolution to have a sticker saying there is no conclusive proof that the book exists. 

[shmokes]

I would like stickers in evolution books to say that there is no conclusive proof that the sticker exists.

[DrewKaree]

I must have met all the excommunicated Mormons, unless they don't actively try to convert their versions of the great unwashed.

That, and the fact that I've agreed with some of their views probably points to such a high degree of success and stealth with the brainwashing.....or apathy on my part to put up much of a fight......must......find.......temple!

You guys and your stickers!  People who need stickers are going to hell

[ChadTower]

or apathy on my part to put up much of a fight......must......find.......temple!

I will help you.  Here is a pistol.  Here is a map to your temple.

[Dartful Dodger]

The symbol to represent the rubberbanders will be a rubber band with a twist.  This symbol can be placed on the back of a car.  It will look something like the infinity symbol, this way when the rubberbanders find Christ they can just remove part of the sticker, and they

[DrewKaree]

Why not just cut one of the sides of the symbol horizontally and make the fish have a longer tail?

Can we get wristbands too, like the "LiveStrong" ones?  That'll enhance awareness of the fact someone might be going to hell.  Or not.  Maybe different colored wristbands to determine if you're "right", shooting for a permanent purgatory, or going to hell.

[ChadTower]

We're going a bit further... neckbands... really, really tight neckbands.

[Dartful Dodger]

Why not just cut one of the sides of the symbol horizontally and make the fish have a longer tail?

The side is the part I meant.

Are you trying to confuse me?

Is this part of your plan to atheizes/Chistianize me?

[ChadTower]

Is this part of your plan to atheizes/Chistianize me?

The word is Euthanize.  Euthanize.

[DrewKaree]

But only if you don't have a Bazooka Joe wrapper in your pocket at the time of the attempted conversion.  Otherwise, going to hell is fine for you

[mr.Curmudgeon]

There are basic tenants present in all religions that are similar throughout; it's only when arguing about the specifics that most religions seem to forget about those basics tenants altogether.

Of all the.....whodathunk MrC would nail it down so well when speaking about religion!  Mebbe he's not going to hell aft....nevermind

I won't tell the ones who think you're going to hell that you said something I agree with.  I'd hate to let them know you were brainwashing me

See, I'm not an evil guy, I just play one on these forums! 

I have studied quite a few religions (on my own time, not academically) and I find very reasonable, workable solutions to a lot of lifes problems. I am a very spiritual person, I just dislike organized religion for how they choose to apply the notion of spirituallity.

Also, for the record, the theology I find the most interesting is Buddhism, but it still has too much pomp and circumstance for me (this is a joke if you know anything about Buddhism). I like the idea that if you are a bastard and you die, you come back as a deformed cockroach, only to spend the next seven lifetimes working your way up to, at best, a retarded frog.

Karma is a brilliant principle.

mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

The atheist on a crusade is easier to deal with than a Christian who feels they know Jesus better than other Christians.

This is - by far - the most reasonable thing you've every posted in 'Everything Else'. 


mrC

[DrewKaree]

Well, there was that other thing he sez, but I can understand why you don't find that reasonable - it'd mean accepting the fact.  How is it that you say it, DD?

BUSH WON!

Not only reasonable, but a joy to read!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Well, there was that other thing he sez, but I can understand why you don't find that reasonable - it'd mean accepting the fact.  How is it that you say it, DD?

BUSH WON!

Not only reasonable, but a joy to read!

I'll accept it, if it's posted in it's entirety:

BUSH WON! (In an electoral college system, by tipping Ohio at 2.5%, during an election using faulty electronic voting machines with unauditable paper trails, created by companies wholely owned by extremely partisan Republican donors)

There...them's some facts.

mrC
P.S. DD also believes it's reasonable to think that a women with a missing cerebral cortex is possibly days away from making a "complete recovery." So, ya' know, for what it's worth.

[shmokes]

No, it's generally unreasonable for him to post that.  It's an undisputed fact that Bush won on either side (even Mr.C accepts that he won, even if though cheating). 

He makes those Bush Won posts for only two reasons:  First, and foremost, to get under the skin of Bush-haters.  He accomplishes this, I suppose, but only because it's not a funny or clever joke, yet he tells it over and over and over over.  Second, and more obnoxious, is that he uses it as a copout whenever he gets cornered on some assinine argument he's trying to make.  I suspect that even many Bush supporters, who also support intelligence and good humor, like ChatTower, find it equally lame.

Mainly it's just not that funny, certainly not material worth recycling ad nauseum four months after the election.

[Crazy Cooter]

I'm a bit surprised at the length of DD's responses.  I think he finally opened up.

Religiously, I believe what I heard on TV one day:
"Do your own tricks."

I never knew how to sum it up until I heard that phrase.  Remember, you can't be a rubber band believer if you never peg down one end of it.  Things change, your beliefs change, everything changes.  People shouldn't be so eager to pigeon hole everything.  Set it down, step away from the filing system.  "Do what thou wilt."
(That's a fairly obscure reference for the more serious religious investigator)

[DrewKaree]

Well, there was that other thing he sez, but I can understand why you don't find that reasonable - it'd mean accepting the fact.  How is it that you say it, DD?

BUSH WON!

Not only reasonable, but a joy to read!

I'll accept it, if it's posted in it's entirety

Fine, Mr Legalistic nutter, I'll post it in its entirety (and I actually don't recall Dartful posting it in its entirety!)

BUSH WON!  TWICE!


There.  Is that better for you?

 

btw, how did we ruin Dartful's thread so quickly?

[cholin]

Who cares how we ruin these threads Im just glad I dont have a president that looks like a monkey!  One of the best things about Canada!  Only problem, all the parts I need come from the UK or the states

[DrewKaree]

That's the beauty of having a president as handsome as ours.  It makes it an evil pleasure that you have to send your twice as much of your funny money our way, which might be used to support that guy you don't like 

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Who cares how we ruin these threads Im just glad I dont have a president that looks like a monkey! 

Monkey, no. Chimp...yes.



mrC

[Dartful Dodger]

Remember, you can't be a rubber band believer if you never peg down one end of it.  Things change, your beliefs change, everything changes.  People shouldn't be so eager to pigeon hole everything.

Excellent way to describe it. 

The idea of their faith is the nail in the rubber band, and the rubber band is the amount of belief they have in it.  Most people casually pull the rubber band in all directions, but they seldom put enough stress on the rubber band to cause any backlash.  It's when a person pulls to hard in one direction the rubber band snaps back in the other direction with equal or greater force.

To add to that, the strength of the rubber band is determined by the amount of faith they have in the nail.  If they don't have enough strength the rubber band snaps and that person is free of that nail.

That person then hammers a new nail and surrounds it with a different rubber band.

So we are all guided by the band.... until we snap.

[shmokes]

I think Couter was saying that the Nail is the bad part.  He doesn't think you should have MORE faith to have a stronger nail, he thinks you should just never hammer in a nail to begin with.  That way you are free to change your mind as much as you want as you receive new information or come to new conclusions without looking like an ass for having hammered the proverbial nail so deep already.

The overall moral of Couter's story appears to be: Faith is bad.     Probably not what you are trying to say.

[Grasshopper]

Remember, you can't be a rubber band believer if you never peg down one end of it.  Things change, your beliefs change, everything changes.  People shouldn't be so eager to pigeon hole everything.

Excellent way to describe it. 

The idea of their faith is the nail in the rubber band, and the rubber band is the amount of belief they have in it.  Most people casually pull the rubber band in all directions, but they seldom put enough stress on the rubber band to cause any backlash.  It's when a person pulls to hard in one direction the rubber band snaps back in the other direction with equal or greater force.

To add to that, the strength of the rubber band is determined by the amount of faith they have in the nail.  If they don't have enough strength the rubber band snaps and that person is free of that nail.

That person then hammers a new nail and surrounds it with a different rubber band.

So we are all guided by the band.... until we snap.

I think I'll just stick to being an atheist, so much less complicated.

[Grasshopper]

When you snatch the Rubber Band from my hand Grasshopper then it will be time for you to leave....

[Crazy Cooter]

I think Couter was saying that the Nail is the bad part.

Exactly.

[Dartful Dodger]

I think I'll just stick to being an atheist, so much less complicated.

Being an atheist means you believe there is nothing to believe, that is your nail.

If you are in a situation were you would like to believe in a higher power, you struggle to not believe in that higher power.

For example taking a chance or gambling of any kind.

[fredster]

Ann Coulter is so hot 

[Dartful Dodger]

Ann Coulter is so hot

[Grasshopper]

I think I'll just stick to being an atheist, so much less complicated.

Being an atheist means you believe there is nothing to believe, that is your nail.

If you are in a situation were you would like to believe in a higher power, you struggle to not believe in that higher power.

For example taking a chance or gambling of any kind.  You

[Dartful Dodger]

My 'beliefs' are based on evidence, and are subject to change in the light of new evidence. If you provide credible evidence of the existence of a higher power then I'll possibly start to believe in him/her/it.

Your 'beliefs' are your nail.

[jbox]

Grasshopper:

If you provide credible evidence of the existence of a higher power then I'll possibly start to believe in him/her/it.

Then you are agnostic (like me). An atheist would always believe the evidance was manufactured or otherwise falsified even if the majority of peer-reviewed studies found it was not. Atheist /= agnostic, and it always annoys me when either side mixes that up. 

Dartful:

For example taking a chance or gambling of any kind.  You

[DrewKaree]

So if jbox' nail is a turd, won't his rubber band quickly slice/slide through his nail and smack him in the face with force......and turd?

You said "turd"! heh heh he heh he he

jbox, it's so touching to hear you speak of making your feelings for others "efficient".  Have you ever thought about writing for Hallmark

Say turd again!  Heh heh he he heh heh he

[jbox]

Well, I wasn't sure what words would safely get through the censors.   I would have used a slang word for the male anatomy if I thought it would get through, but I figured that turd was the word with most of the connotations I wanted but least likely to get edited out. I hate it when people write ***hole for some reason. 

Of course I have feelings for other people, and they will also guide my decisions. But since some people seem to think that anyone who doesn't believe in God can't possibly believe that being nice to other people is a good idea, I figured I would phrase it in a manner that was less ambiguous for them. If you ask "who is it hurting", then you deserve to get an answer. 

And I still don't understand why people who can claim so violently that there is a perfect paradise waiting for us after we die are so opposed to the idea of letting people go there. After all, it's not the vegetable's fault they were "murdered", so surely only the murderer is going to hell and Terry gets a one-way trip to the pearly gates right?

[Bones]

I think I'll just stick to being an atheist, so much less complicated.

Being an atheist means you believe there is nothing to believe, that is your nail.

If you are in a situation were you would like to believe in a higher power, you struggle to not believe in that higher power.

For example taking a chance or gambling of any kind.

[DrewKaree]

And I still don't understand why people who can claim so violently that there is a perfect paradise waiting for us after we die are so opposed to the idea of letting people go there. After all, it's not the vegetable's fault they were "murdered", so surely only the murderer is going to hell and Terry gets a one-way trip to the pearly gates right?

That's for a different thread

Bones, I almost thought you were going to make it out safe there.  Did you hurt your hand when you punched the computer screen?

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper:

If you provide credible evidence of the existence of a higher power then I'll possibly start to believe in him/her/it.

Then you are agnostic (like me). An atheist would always believe the evidance was manufactured or otherwise falsified even if the majority of peer-reviewed studies found it was not. Atheist /= agnostic, and it always annoys me when either side mixes that up. 

Funny you should say that. This issue came up in another thread a few months ago.

I used to call myself agnostic (actually sometimes I still do), but then after doing a google search I found out that there are several definitions for the words atheist and agnostic.

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Atheist

http://www.2think.org/hii/atheism.shtml

At the moment if someone asks me what religion I am, my first response is simply to say that I'm an atheist out of laziness. Most people have at least a vague idea of what the word atheist means.

If pressed I give a more accurate description of my position, which is closer to most (but not all) modern definitions of the word agnostic.

[Crazy Cooter]

Most people have at least a vague idea of what the word atheist means.

[little old lady voice]
it means you worship the devil... get away! Wilbur help!

T T T TUR  TUR TUR

turd was the word

IMO, people need to have something to look forward to when they die.  They use faith to explain why bad things happen here on earth and they use faith to say they will be stronger when they get through it.  For all the "suffering" they endure here, if they follow the rules they can go to the arcade in the sky where the games are set to free play.  If the arcade was really full of broken games, who would follow the rules down here?  It would be anarchy.  Religion itself is (partially) aimed at controlling people.

[DrewKaree]

IMO, people need to have something to look forward to when they die.

It's a happy coincidence for me, but it sounds as if you are speaking of a specific religion, unless people believing in reincarnation (instant breakfast) are looking forward to the unknown possibility of what they'll come back as, for one.

As for faith explaining why bad things happen here on earth, it seems as if people want to choose one of two things to believe about faith.  Bad stuff happens for a reason, or how can you believe in a God that would allow bad things to happen. 

If "following rules" is the way to inner peace/salvation in the religions you're basing that belief on, you may wish to keep looking, or define what religion you are speaking of.  Legalism will exist in all religions - it's one of the reasons people keep redefining what's "right" - which very few religions are based on, if any.  I'm not certain what Judaism is specifically based on, but that's the only "religion" that seems to be based on "following the rules".

If the religion you believe in is based on controlling people, I'd wonder about what it is you believe in myself.  Most, if not all, religions aren't about controlling people, they're about giving people something to put their faith in.  Due to their beliefs, people will control themselves based on their beliefs. 

[Crazy Cooter]

But don't you think that religion hands over a set of values that limit ones thoughts/actions?  How many times have you heard: "It's against my religion"?  Most people see religion as law and they just conform.  That's the nail.  It holds you back from seeing the rest of the pegboard.

Poeple are afraid of death so they make up stuff about how great it is on the "other side" and you shouldn't worry about it.  Heaven, reincarnation as a "greater animal", bunch of virgins, whatever.  The quest to meet the guidelines for reaching that destination controls your everyday life.

People shouldn't put their faith in anything but themselves.  Don't ask the nail what to think, ask yourself.

[Dartful Dodger]

How many times have you heard: "It's against my religion"?

[DrewKaree]

Even a sociopath has a set of values and limits.

I could have sworn that shmokes was just a godless heathen who was so evil it was starting to turn his face green.  You're telling me he can tell right from wrong?  Dartful, I think you're starting to go soft in the head.  Next you'll be telling us you think we need to enact more gun control laws!

But don't you think that religion hands over a set of values that limit ones thoughts/actions?  How many times have you heard: "It's against my religion"?  Most people see religion as law and they just conform.

Cooter, you just kinda explained my point.  If people see religion as law and they just conform, how can that be considered a "belief"?  Religions lay out their set of values and usually explain their case behind 'em, and if you agree with them, you DO follow them. 

People who tell you "it's against my religion" probably haven't stopped to consider why it is they do the things they do, or haven't the slightest interest in developing their faith by questioning the precepts it's founded on.  It's the same as lumping someone into a particular religion because you think a few of their beliefs fit your views of that religion, without questioning further to see what exactly their beliefs are.

[DrewKaree]

that didn't really "feel" right to me, and after re-reading it, mebbe this'll help.

We have laws that govern the use of roads in America.  We follow those laws, aren't they handed over and designed to limit your thoughts and actions?  We se them as laws and conform, but that doesn't make the DMV a church, their handbook with the laws explained isn't a bible, following the rules of the road isn't a religion.

Meh.

[jbox]

If an atheist feels he should be able to go 35 in a 30, he'll go 35.

Except there is a process for a speed limit to be changed even if the person currently administering the process doesn't agree with you. To equate religious institutions with government processes seems like agreeing with Cooter's point (rational malleability). 

I also agree with the observation that people tend to "shop" from their "religion" per se. For example, lots of people are aligned with religions that tell them that being wealthy will damn them to hell, but they still try to make more money...

[shmokes]

Religion does not create morals and values.  This should be obvious.  If only one religion is the "true" religion, that means the rest of the religions are man-made.  If man made the religion, then man decided on what values that religion would teach.  What if it turns out that all the 9/11 hijackers really DO get 72 virgins or whatever.  Does that mean that 90% of Americans have no values or morals cos without god (alah) how could there be morals?

If, somehow, it is proven conclusively that there never has been and is no god will you go out and start murdering people and stealing from them?  Doubtful.  The rest of us would still just throw your ass in prison. 

I suspect that for the most part most of our values boil down to instinct, self preservation/advancement, reasoning and, perhaps first and foremost, the golden rule.

[Dartful Dodger]

Except there is a process for a speed limit to be changed even if the person currently administering the process doesn't agree with you. To equate religious institutions with government processes seems like agreeing with Cooter's point (rational malleability).

Then I agree.

Even the Catholic Church has changed its views on its laws.  Once they had to fast of Fridays during Lent, enough people disagreed with that law, so it was limited to no meat.   The fish industry bribed the pope so it was changed to allow fish.

That seems like governmental processes to me.

Remember Jesus was a Jew.

Next you'll be telling us you think we need to enact more gun control laws!

I think we need to enact more laws which allow me to control more guns.

[DrewKaree]

Next you'll be telling us you think we need to enact more gun control laws!

I think we need to enact more laws which allow me to control more guns.

I agree with that point, however, "allowing me to control more guns" is something I prefer to call "aiming" or "sighting in", and I wonder if we need a law to do those things. 

Well, at least with a law to do those things, if the laws weren't being followed, we'd be throwing all the people who break that law in jail, right?

[Crazy Cooter]

The fish industry bribed the pope so it was changed to allow fish.

LOL.

It boils down to this:
1- "Mans law".
2- "God's law" (whomever you believe in).
3- "Individual law".

I say ditch the first two and live by the third.  The first is based in suppression, the second is based in conformity.  Each can be viewed as an "entity" that only bends for self preservation.  For example, the lent thing.  Nobody wanted it, so in order for it to survive the Pope said fish was cool.  The "nail" bends in order to entice more rubber bads around it.

[ChadTower]

Forget that.  I live by Ohm's Law.

[Dartful Dodger]

The "nail" bends in order to entice more rubber bads around it.

The nail isn't a church, or a government.

[shmokes]

Heh...my last post had a horrible type.  When I said, "Religion does create morals....," I meant to say, "Religion does not create morals."

Whoops....   Kinda changes the meaning a bit.

[Dartful Dodger]

Heh...my last post had a horrible type.

[DrewKaree]

It boils down to this:
1- "Mans law".
2- "God's law" (whomever you believe in).
3- "Individual law".

I say ditch the first two and live by the third. 

What if your "individual law" is harmful to another human beano?  What if my law states that anyone who steps foot on my property deserves to be shot and perhaps killed?  What if your law states that beating your child is the way you discipline your kid for any violation of your laws?

Your theory breaks down further and further as more and more people are included in the mix. 

[shmokes]

Heh....in my last post where I said "type" I meant "typo".