The Windows on Arcade Montiors Project

[mhoward211]

As suggested by Chazz, this thread is intended to cover our personal saga's and coming together in the attempt of getting a stable and working Windows environment on an arcade monitor.  Our ultimate goal in this project I think would be to avoid scan converters and rely on hardware and software only.

Please use this thread to post your settings with whatever programs you use like Powerstrip, any special video card settings, front end or emulator specific settings or anything else you have found beneficial.  Links to websites and images would also be great.  

Michael

[Slice]

Hi guy's, I'll give my settings as best I can - But before I do I have to say that it didn't work straight away, I did alot of messing about. Here is what I have at the minute.
Hardware  -
ATI Radeon 64Mb,
Arcade 15Khz monitor (Not sure the type - but it uses an old Kortek PCB!)
Direct connection cable between Video Card and Monitor (It's along story - but I do have a J-Pac and will hook it up later, If I get a problem then I'll post.)
Software -
Windows 98
Lazarus Frontend
Mame and Project64
and of course Powerstrip (Which auto loads on boot up!)
I read a tip before about using a second cheapo card which was good -
Quote from Alans17
"Here's a tip I've found to come in real handy, though... Get your hands on a second video card (any cheapo card will do). Now BEFORE you install the computer in your cabinet, install PowerStrip on your computer. It will auto-detect your video card. Then shut it down and drop in the second (cheapo) video card. You'll have to switch your monitor over in the back because it will detect the cheapo card as the default...

NOW hook up your good card to the arcade monitor. Windows will allow you to view both screens at once and Power Strip will let detect the new card as well. You can use your regular monitor to visually configure the arcade monitor one step at a time. Then when it's perfect... turn the sucker off and remove the cheapo card. Windows will default BACK to the good card and PowerStrip will have saved your tweaked arcade monitor settings. You're good to go!!! (hope that wasn't too much)" End Quote.
I actually didn't get this to work but that was down to a lack of resources on my own PC.

[Slice]

Just to finish - In PowerStrip I went into

Powerstrip>Display profiles>Configure>advanced timing options
- unchecked the real-time-adjustment
- Checked the interlaced box also the composite sync box and finally adjusted the Horizontal Resolution to 15Khz.
I then had to adjust the pots on the back of the monitor to get a stable picture, I found the 640x480 resolution to work best. One note though if you take a long time adjusting the pots - Powerstrip will re-set to the last good setting.
OK - this may sound simple but it took me hours to do!!

I hope this helps, what I will do if I get a chance is unistall Powerstrip and do it from scratch, I'm sure my summary above has missed something!
But I can tell you - it does work!!!
                                                 Slice

[Chazz]

Is it really necessary to adjust the pots?  This would be something I'd like to stay away from.

[John]

Slice,

What ATI card are you using?  I just purchased an ATI 8500 All-in-wonder.  Also what driver are you usnig?  and I assume you're using powerstrip 3 shareware version?

I tried powerstrip but whenever I set the frequency to 15 it reverts back.  None of the settings would stick under advance settings.  

I ended up doing a variation of the 2 video card trick.  I used the TVout on the card and attach it via composite video to tweak powerstrip.  

I did what you said using configigure -> adv timing -> and uncheck real-time adjustment, check interlace and composite sync (and this all running through an JPAC)  but then as soon as I hit apply it jumps back to 30khz horizontal.    There are also other issues of the adv timing options disappearing after a failed attempt.  In which case I'd have to exit powerstrip and start it again.

any ideas?  I am really leaning towards just buying a tv and putting it in the cab instead.  Since TV out on the all-in-woder works very well and a side by side comparasion shows a much brigter pictures (and very little tweaking).

how much do you think I can sell a 25" arcade can go for?? complete with isolation transformer and maybe even a MortalKombat II board and jamma harness.

John

[Chazz]

...another question

Can I do the two video cards with any video cards and system?  I'll be able to work on this a lot more if I can do this.

[Slice]

Hi guy's I've just taken picture files of my Powerstrip settings - if I mail them to someone can they post them here? I can't supply a link to them.
My card again is the ATI Radeon, I know that this card works I also know that the Matrox G-400 works (Although I've only heard this!)
From what I understand working an arcade monitor off a video card with powerstrip is on the extremes of even the few cards that can do it.
Also on the Monitor pots - yes they do have to be adjusted, You need these to get sync.
John you mentioned your settings reverting back - They will as Powerstrip has a function where it auto-reverts after about a minute if it thinks there is a problem with settings.
Chazz - I'll mail you my setting and you can post them?  

[Chazz]

Hey Slice!
Sure!  Email me your Powerstrip settings and I'll post them here (lithiumdesign@hotmail.com).

Also can you give some more info on adjusting the pots?  Is this dangerous?  Will it affect playing MAME?  Any chance of damaging your monitor?

[John]

Chazz,

The pots should be located on the back of your arcade monitor.  My are situated something like from left to right (H sync, H position, V hold, V position, Brightness and contrast.)

The toughest thing I've found on my upright is that it's hard to reach around to adjust and see the monitor at the same time; but it is doable.  If you can't easily get to the back of your arcade monitor, you may even want to get a mirror so it's easier to see the screen when you do the adjustment.

I've played with the pots for about 3 hours so far (to get the picture to stablize) and I do not think it's dangerous; (YMMV) just remember to stay away from the high voltage area.  As far as I know once you get the Vhold to stick you should be able to play all MAME games using your video out.  I'd still use a JPAC since it has circuitury to prevent sending a sync that may damage the monitor this way you can feel comfortable tweaking your settings.

Looking forward to seeing your Powerstrip screenies Slice.  I hope I can get this running, if not, I'm looking at a 25" sylenvia TV from sears (which has its advantages too, like the ability to take in my xbox, ps2, and gamecube.

John

[Slice]

Hi guy's
Those screenies are on their way to you Chazz!! Also John is right adjusting the pots is not dangerous - Just be careful if you are reaching around the cab , use a mirror or get someone to help - You don't want your hand to stray near the Tube or electronics!!
Anyway I'll be off-line tomorrow but will check in at some time on Saturday!!

Take care and good luck guy's

                                     Slice

[mhoward211]

In order to get Powerstrip to autostart on bootup do I just need to put the exe in the "Startup" folder?

[Chazz]

Slice's screen shots can be found on the WOAMP website
http://www.interlog.com/~zupetals/woamp/

[JLR2000]

Do you think it would be a good idea for me to set up a website with the info we gather once we make some headway?


(Slice, I haven't received your email yet)

Chazz - if you could setup a site I think that would be great.  I know I will be glad to contribute when I get my monitor hooked up!  Thanks to all for their contributions!!

[Chazz]

The WOAMP Website is now online
http://www.interlog.com/~zupetals/woamp/

Now this is where I need your help.  I need volunteers to write up the actual information to go on the site, as I'm really not sure what to put.  

Please contact me at lithiumdesign@hotmail.com (I'm on the PC from 6:00am to 3:00pm Monday to Friday.

[JMDickson]

  Slice, I can see why you had to adjust the hold.
 You are running a little high at 18.5Khz (H).  If you reduce the refresh rate closer to 30 you should end up near the magic 15.7Khz.  With interlace on you want "waitvsync 0" in your mame.ini for sure.
 If I can get some time this weekend I am going to try to get 640x240. Powerstrip disables some of the tweak controls when you get this low though.  This will probably open a whole new can of worms, but I'm hoping to get a 60Hz refresh rate.

[John]

woah.. success.. I used the settings from slice and I actually got a good and stable picture on my radeon 8500 all-in-wonder.  I did have to disable the tv-out.  Of course after my small success it wasn't perfect so I screw with it some more and now it doesn't work again.

The good news is this brings me hope and I think I will stick with the arcade monitor since when it was working it looked great.

thanks.. and great job on the website.  I look forward to contribute some useful info on it.

John

[Slice]

WOW - I've been away the weekend and have just logged in this morning, I can't beleive how much work has been done, Glad my setting have been of some use! I've actually re-tweaked my settings a bit. I'll post more when I'm happy with them.
JMDickson - I'll be very interested to hear the results of your tweaking.
Anyway Chazz - I'll support your Website 100%

                          Slice.

[ophtho]

Ok, this may not be what people are looking for, but here goes:

Almost all newer video cards have s-video out, so just get a video decoder that converts s-vidoe to RGBS and you should be good to go.  

Take the RGBS with Hsync and Vsync signals, pump them through the JPAC and wallah, windows on arcade monitor.  Its halfway between a scan converter and powerstrip. Plus you get a digical comb filter to boot which should make the picture approach the newer TV sets.  Consider this for example:

http://www.avtoolbox.com/cmt-7.htm

Haven't tried it myself but maybe some brave soul would like to try it out. $159 isn't too bad. Also looks like its a 30 day money back guarantee so if it doesn't work, no loss. Have no idea what the quality would be in the end. Of course the more hacked way would be to rip apart an svideo TV set and tap out the output of the decoder that way. Cost is probably the same in the end though.

[John]

Well, I emailed AVToolbox (read the following)

> Hi there,
>
> I am interested in the CMT-7 decoder for a project that I'm doing.
> I am trying to get VGA signal from a computer (or composite or even Svideo
> singal from the TVout portion) to output to an arcade monitor.
>
> Arcade monitor accepts RGBS and needs horizontal of 15.7 instead
> of the regular hsync of 30 which VGA uses.  My main question is if I use
> the TVout from a video card to CMT-7's input, then take the RGB H+V sync
> and put it on the arcade monitor, would it work?
>
> thanks

and here's the reply from Dan @ AvtoolBox.

>John,
>Yes, I believe the CMT-7 would work for your application.  We offer a >30-day
>evaluation on all of our products in case you are not satisfied with >the
>results.  Let me know if you need anything else.
>Dan Gibson
>AV Toolbox
>800-235-3280

So I ordered one today.  I'll post my findings after I get it.  There was just too many tries with powerstrip so I'm going to try this CMT-7 to see if I can get it to run off the arcade monitor.  If this doesn't go, I'd look into the TV route.

John

[SNAAAKE]

I almost ordered one...then figure i'd wait till someone posts about the quility.

let us know how things work out.

thanks in advance  

[JLR2000]

Not to be a downer, but $159 more doesn't seem like a solution to me.  Maybe I'm missing something, but for that kind of money, I can buy a cheap s-video TV.  I got what appears to be a great monitor for $100 bucks (including the cabinet it came in).  My hopes were to get it hooked up to a mame pc running windows.  I figured a j-pac was necessary, so that's $60 bucks.  I know I need a special video card, but I'm waiting to see what others have posted as to what exactly is working for them. I figure that is another $60 - $90.  Now if I get the CMT-7 decoder that's another $159.....  Maybe I'm missing the point but I can buy the VGA arcade monitors for less than all the parts and it just plugs into the pc and works - no issues.  My point is if I have to buy all these parts just to try to get it to work, why would I?  I hope I don't catch too much hell for this post, but are we losing sight of the goal here?  Of course I could be completely off here....

[Anonymously]

Well, I emailed AVToolbox (read the following)

So I ordered one today.  I'll post my findings after I get it.  There was just too many tries with powerstrip so I'm going to try this CMT-7 to see if I can get it to run off the arcade monitor.  If this doesn't go, I'd look into the TV route.

John

Let us know how it looks.  If it works I might get one.

For JLR2000
I know you can just buy a PC Monitor or small TV for that amount, but If we can have windows display on an Arcade Monitor atleast 800x600 that seems to be a small price to pay for the people that already have a 25 inch arcade monitor.  In fact if this work I might just buy an old cabinet with a working Monitor than buying a separate VGA Monitor and a Cabinet.

[John]

well, CMT-7 arrived yesterday and I had a chance to put it to the test.  Generally speaking it works.  I found that I didn't need to hook up the vertical sync, only the horizontal to get a clear picture.  I was able to quickly get a stable picture and windows 640x480 and 800x600 are both viewable, although a bit blurry.

MAME ran without any other modifications.  The only problem I have now is sometimes the text doesn't look right but if I pause the game the text looks okay.

take a look at these two screenshots.  (from mortal kombat II intro screen)

and the same image paused.


Here are a couple more shots on the arcade monitor.



as a comparison to a TV out I have from the same source


Overall, TV just looks more vibriant and sharper.  Does anyone have any idea on the blurred text problem?  I may have to play with the settings more with the TV out options on the all-in-wonder.  

Still now the TV looks better, I may just have to go with the TV route.  The other question is how much do you guys think I can get for my 25" arcade monitor ?

John

[SNAAAKE]

 The other question is how much do you guys think I can get for my 25" arcade monitor ?
John

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=2591

Well,
This yamaha dude has been bothering me for over a week to see if can find any monitor for him.Sell it to him.He reallllllllllly wants a cga arcade monitor to play with mk board.

But if i were to buy an arcade monitor.I'd say only $100 because its used and $100 sounds like a fair deal.

Also,if you want you could do a trade for his 19" hybrid arcade monitor.....TRUST ME....vga arcade monitors are just amezing.its not all that small like a 19" tv.

i have the same one he is willing to trade.Give it a try.

You said TV was good right?Then you will love vga arcade monitor.   ITS just too clear/hassle free/rich color/perfect for mame.

[John]

Thanks for the 411 Snaake, I just emailed yamaha and told him $100 (he pays shipping) or we can just swap monitors.  I figure I could always use the 19" VGA when I decide to build a cocktail cab if it doesn't look good in my main cab.

So what do you guys think of the screenshots?  Does that tell you everything?  Do you guys want me to take more shots before I return the unit?  I think the CMT7 is actually pretty good.  Just not sure if I'm missing something there.  It was way easier to use than powerstrip though, but then again, I guess when GeorgeousBen comes back I may have to try his powerstrip settings too.

John

[ophtho]

I've got a CMT-7 coming myself and will see if I replicate your (John) findings. My prediction would be that the TV would in the end be better as I think the tubes for the newer TVs are all about getting vibrant pictures these days.

However, I would suggest one thing to try if you haven't done so already. Pass the output of the CMT-7 through a JPAC first. Connect the RGB H + V to the appropriate pins on the VGA cable and route it to the JPAC. The dim signal is probably because the output voltage for the CMT is low (guessing 0.7 V) and the JPAC video amp will increase the brightness significantly.  Also, the problem you are having with the crooked text will likely  also be solved as the JPAC takes the H sync and V sync signal and combines them into an amplified C sync signal. I have no idea how much that will improve your picture but while you have it its worth giving it a try.

[StLouisRod]

Why are you guys STILL trying to figure this out?!?!?  I've posted many times a simple solution for Windows on a standard res arcade monitor!  There are 3 guaranteed ways, and 1 other possible way that I know of:

1)  Install an S3/Virge Trio64-based card and load VBE.com which is included with AdvanceMame in your autoexec.bat, making sure to use ADVV -vbev first to create a 640x480 16bit screen.   As long as Windows is set to 640x480 16bit mode, it will come up fine.  AdvanceMame works well with these cards.  The downside is that there is no 3D on the card, and some S3 cards generate a poor picture.

2) Install a Trident Blade T64 AGP or PCI video card.  Download the hacked BLADE15 driver from www.ultimarc.com and run it from your STARTUP folder in Windows, once again making sure Windows is set to 640x480 16bit mode.  This is the best solution in my opinion since you can run 3D games on your cabinet as well.  

Both cards are cheap (< $40.00).  For both solutions a J-Pac is suggested to protect your monitor from overdriving during boot-up and for the video amplifier on the board that makes the image much brighter (5 volts).

3)  Download Ceolo's VGA2TV for windows.  It only supports a handful of video cards, though, so good luck getting it to work with yours.  Out of 10 cards I tried, it only worked on one (an S3-based card I think).  

There is a 4th possibility of using Andrea's (Mr. AdvanceMame's) new VGATV utility available in the latest AdvanceCAB utilities.  I have not tried it, and some folks are having trouble getting it to work, but it's free so give it a try.

Enjoy!