What do you guys think about this whole invade Iran stuff that is coming up

[Hoagie_one]

I think most rumors starts with serious facts.  I'm afraid that its entirely possible that Dubya wants to go through with it

[Sephroth57]

were invading someone else now? Sweet, i hope they have lots of oil or something useful, OOH maybe they have arcade machines =)

[Dexter]

Boston.Com Link

Here we go again. There has been leaked information for months now about plans to strike their suspected nuclear facilities. Remember everyone, nobody in the middle east can have nukes.........except Israel. Plus, theres a lot of money to be made, wars big business dontchaknow.

Four more wars, Four more wars, Four more wars, Four more wars......

[Sephroth57]

this is getting out of hand... if we start another war over assumptions and nothing... well thats just gonna blow

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Why not?

Iraq is going so swimmingly, I know all the war supporters on this forum are just itching to sign-up and go defend democracy in the middle east. Iran just gives them that much more to look forward too...God speed guys!

[DYNAGOD]

dont forget that the Europea Assembly (ESPECIALLY the french) are planning on lifting the arms ban on China very soon.
this would allow an influx of ultra modern weapons systems previously unattainable by the chinese red army under this ban to flow..
evidently the EU wants to profit off a potential war between us and the chinese.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Why shouldn't they? The current U.S. administration has basically told them to go take a flyin' f*ck anyhow.  Doesn't suprise me at all...this is what happens when you snub the rest of the world and I don't really think the U.S. has any room to complain about it.

Payback's a beeyatch.

[Sephroth57]

well, as long as i dont get bombed or something till im 70ish ill be ok. But the way its looking people are gonna start hating the US more then they already did

[GGKoul]

I hope the US doesn't invade any more countries unless they absolutely have too.  Because if they do, a Draft would have to be put in place to recruit more soldiers for another war. 

And more US boys and girls don't need to die on foreign soil.

[GGKoul]

Another thing... why is Osama Bin Laden still alive?   Get him before you get anyone else.

[Hoagie_one]

I hope the US doesn't invade any more countries unless they absolutely have too.

[fredster]

One reporter comes up with a half baked story and we are all upset.

The US can't put up a new front.

I'm sure we have Mr. Phelps and Rainbow Six there, but we have a lot of other issues to deal with before we can re-tool to blow away Iran.

Relax, it's all good!

[DYNAGOD]

War in the modern age is an absolute waste of life, time, and energy..
there is absolutely nothing to gain from invading ANY nation in the current age..
The problem is that there are no longer the "spoils" of war. we dont gain anything.. all we do is put out billions and when its all said and done and all the bodies are buried, not only do we not have a new country under our belts with all of its precious resources, but we are instead obligated to FIX everything we broke in the process and leave it the way we came if not better.... huh?
in REAL war, you bring a nation to its knees with overwhlming force,after which everyone and everything in it belongs to us.. and as a matter of good financial spending you dont invade a 50 dollar country with 100 billion in resources..you should be able to invade countries (like iraq) that have vast resources,win a war and then be able to use them to strenghten our countries financial bottom line.Iraq should be an american state.. no questions asked..
we spent the money to make it happen, it belongs to us now.. thats the way war should work..
its all about nothing but loosing money now,with absolutely nothing to gain..
throwing young lives and money into a bottomless pit. with no chance of recouping anything back..

BRING BACK THE SPOILS!! give war a purpose..

i cant believe this restructuring crap... that country was decimated from years of civil war and internal unrest long before we arrived, why are we footing the bill..

[thrash242]

I'm not neccesarily opposed to the consideration of doing something about Iran (not that I necessarily support it either...I just don't know enough yet to make a firm decision), but I don't think it would be prudent to start another war at this point.   We're already spreading our military thin and I certainly don't want a draft.

I'm all for fighting tooth and nail against terrorism and those who support it, but maybe we should tie up current obligations before starting more trouble.

[thrash242]

Dynagod, it's certainly refreshing to see someone being so up front about that, but war can have a purpose other than conquest.  It can be defensive in the sense that it prevents another country or group from doing what you just described--taking us over and using us for their own gains.

Look at WWII...we didn't get into it to conquer Germany or Japan, but to stop them from doing the same to us or our allies (and to get revenge on Japan).

War must have a goal in mind, however, and the will to win must be there.  Otherwise, you're right, it's a waste with no benefit.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Relax, it's all good!

Too much Soma^TM for you. You are cut off fredster... no more!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Another thing... why is Osama Bin Laden still alive?

Because Bush is still president of the U.S...He's already stated he's forgotten about Osama, or he doesn't care, and that it's too hard to find him because, "He's hiding!"

[DYNAGOD]

Dynagod, it's certainly refreshing to see someone being so up front about that, but war can have a purpose other than conquest.  It can be defensive in the sense that it prevents another country or group from doing what you just described--taking us over and using us for their own gains.

Look at WWII...we didn't get into it to conquer Germany or Japan, but to stop them from doing the same to us or our allies (and to get revenge on Japan).

War must have a goal in mind, however, and the will to win must be there.  Otherwise, you're right, it's a waste with no benefit.

I TOTALLY AGREE... But i think we also all agree that iraq was never a security risk to the continental US..
these kinds of wars are just bad economics..

[abrannan]

Look at WWII...we didn't get into it to conquer Germany or Japan, but to stop them from doing the same to us or our allies (and to get revenge on Japan).

Yes, but why did Germany and Japan get into WWII?  Conquest. 

The way I see it, there are two angles to a potential Iran invasion.  One, we have established endpoints with the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, two countries largely ignored/hated by their neighbors.  Now we have a one country buffer zone on either end of the line, allowing us to invade the country in between.  Insurgents attempting to invade Iran will have to go through Iraq (easy to get waylayed in as there are a lot of targets of opportunity there), Pakistan (small border, easier to patrol), or Afghanistan (see Iraq). 

Two, think of it like the Axis of Evil Punch-Out, we're just fighting our way up the ranks of the Axis of Evil countries weakest to strongest.  Afghanistan was just a warm-up, a "Glass Joe" if you will.  Then we started in on the weakest of the Axis, Iraq.  Next is Iran, and then the sub-boss of North Korea.  Then the true boss is revealed, China.  And knowing how these things work, we'll probably have to beat three or four forms of China before we've truly defeated it.  You know, Giant robot suit china, the deceptively easy Mad Professor China, and then the true Alien Overlord China.  Then there'll be a little epilogue, and the credits will roll...

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Two, think of it like the Axis of Evil Punch-Out...

Then explain to me why America is wearing a pink sweatsuit??     



mrC

[GGKoul]

Two, think of it like the Axis of Evil Punch-Out, we're just fighting our way up the ranks of the Axis of Evil countries weakest to strongest.

[Hoagie_one]

only teh roaches will survive

[Dartful Dodger]

The USA and Iran are learning from the war in Iraq.

[DrewKaree]

The thing is, IRAN actually has WMD's, or the capability to make them. 

All intelligence hearsay.  Doesn't matter how many countries say it, it simply isn't true.  Doesn't matter how far back we found this out, how many people tell us the same thing, or whether or not we believe the information.  Fiddlesticks and poppycock.  Oh, and did I say 


This won't happen for another three years, when we need to wag the dog again.....dagnabbit....my tongue seems to be glued to my cheek!


Eventually this conversation will veer off towards something more meaningful to discuss, until then, I'll just keep poking the bear with a long sharp stick.   

[mr.Curmudgeon]

... and in a couple of years everyone is going to forget Iraq ever existed.

I want what you are smokin'....

[mr.Curmudgeon]

All intelligence hearsay.

Yeah. We know for sure, because we never sold any WMD to Iran.

[Dexter]

What I cant figure out is why havnt we gone where we need to go...Sudan.

[saint]

Mmmm.....  I do think we went to war too quickly (I think the U.N. would have come around, but we'll never know...) and had either misrepresented or mistaken intelligence, all of which are very serious concerns when you base a decision to go to war over them. However, that being said . . .

Saddam Hussein's reign:

1 million people dead in Iran-Iraq war, 1980-1988.

100,000 - 200,000 Kurds massacred - mustard gas, nerve agent surin, and others. Systematically executed, not even combat casualties.  1 million become refugees.

Attacks Kuwait and launches Scuds into Israel.

During UN sanctions against IRAQ, and oil-for-food program, somewhere around 1 million IRAQi's die while Saddam builds palaces (He had somewhere between 21 and 36 palaces) instead of feeding and helping his people. Palaces. Gold toilet seats. Olympic sized swimming pools. Palaces.... and starving people.

Saddam put civillians into harm's way. Storing weapons in mosques, schools, etc, conducting attacks from hospitals.

Number of dead IRAQ civilians in this war - 15,000 to 17,000 (iraqbodycount.net). 27,000 (Iraqi based People's Kifah). 27,000 (US based Brooking's Institute). 100,000 (Lancet study of 1000 homes). (These numbers are dated, I did this research a couple of months ago).

Allied strategic bombing of Germany in World War II killed an estimated 2 million people in a nation with a prewar population of about 80 million. In Iraq, with about 23 million people, the same proportion of casualties would mean about 575,000 dead civilians.

--- saint

There were worse atrocities, Sudan as you mention for example, and the sanctions on Iraq (which the US refused to allow be lifted) killed more Iraqis then Saddam ever did.

[danny_galaga]

pointless. no oil...

[DrewKaree]

pointless. no oil...

That's cuz the Aussies are sticking their straw in the drink on the other side of the glass and sucking .... wait, different oil issue.   

Nevermind, back to the fireworks   

[danny_galaga]

I'm going to see Team America tomorrow, can't wait LOL!

you'll love it! but i suspect that some people won't get it...

[lucindrea]

Look at WWII...we didn't get into it to conquer Germany or Japan, but to stop them from doing the same to us or our allies (and to get revenge on Japan).

acctully the US did occupy japan for awhile and helped them "rebuild" , now look at japan , remind you of NY at all?

[Dartful Dodger]

acctully the US did occupy japan for awhile and helped them "rebuild" , now look at japan , remind you of NY at all?

Cars built in Iran/Iraq... it makes sense.

[Crazy Cooter]

Iran won't happen.  Not even Bush is that stupid.  We can't do anything anywhere until we are out of Iraq.  Besides, is it wise?  Unlike Iraq, they actually have WMD's.  Not even the poor kids will sign up for that army.

We can't do anything that China says no too.  If push came to shove, China could and would kick our ass.  Period.  That's why GW is so soft spoken around N. Korea.  China told him to stay out or deal with what happens next.

Remember: We only push around the playground kids that we know can't fight back.  Until we misjudge them that is... then we get in trouble.  Too bad there wasn't a team of experts that studied Iraq for decades to tell GW it wasn't a good idea to go in... oh wait... there was... and they did...   Over the next few years, we'll pull out of Iraq and the whole area will return to business as usual.  You can't erase hundreds/thousands of years of war/bitterness with one President.  Just watch the elections coming up (which the current Iraqi govmt say they aren't ready for).  It will be worse than Afganistans.  The *best* we can hope for is another Israel.  Then Iran will make a move and we'll have to choose sides.  THEN we'll be invading Iran...

[SeaMonkey]

Boston.Com Link

Here we go again. There has been leaked information for months now about plans to strike their suspected nuclear facilities. Remember everyone, nobody in the middle east can have nukes.........except Israel. Plus, theres a lot of money to be made, wars big business dontchaknow.

Four more wars, Four more wars, Four more wars, Four more wars......

FACT: Islamic militants have never had a weapon they didn't use. Anyone that is concerned about the environment, should be concerned about Iran having nukes.

FACT: From the Crusades onward, white people have been going into the middle east and plundering, drawing bounderies, dictating, and fostering a hatred that is now centuries old, and culturaly ingrained. Whites made this mess, now WHITE PEOPLE, CLEAN IT UP! PLEASE!

I have to chuckle when I see a white guy say, "What goes on over there is none of my business..."
NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS?!?! IT IS DAMN NEAR YOUR FAULT!!!!

The Crusades, the British Empire, the Cold War and even Rome have all contributed to the financial and cultural ruin of Africa and the middle-east. To step back NOW and say, "What goes on over there is none of my business" is worse than uneducated, it is criminal.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Iran won't happen.  Not even Bush is that  stupid.

Ahhh..but you "misunderestimate" him!!

[Crazy Cooter]

If it won't happen, and we have no plan to do it...

Then why have we been flying unmanned aircraft ove Iran for over a year trying to map out its defenses?

[Grasshopper]

Boston.Com Link

Here we go again. There has been leaked information for months now about plans to strike their suspected nuclear facilities. Remember everyone, nobody in the middle east can have nukes.........except Israel. Plus, theres a lot of money to be made, wars big business dontchaknow.

Four more wars, Four more wars, Four more wars, Four more wars......

FACT: Islamic militants have never had a weapon they didn't use. Anyone that is concerned about the environment, should be concerned about Iran having nukes.

FACT: From the Crusades onward, white people have been going into the middle east and plundering, drawing bounderies, dictating, and fostering a hatred that is now centuries old, and culturaly ingrained. Whites made this mess, now WHITE PEOPLE, CLEAN IT UP! PLEASE!

I have to chuckle when I see a white guy say, "What goes on over there is none of my business..."
NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS?!?! IT IS DAMN NEAR YOUR FAULT!!!!

The Crusades, the British Empire, the Cold War and even Rome have all contributed to the financial and cultural ruin of Africa and the middle-east. To step back NOW and say, "What goes on over there is none of my business" is worse than uneducated, it is criminal.

True, but shouldn't we have learnt our lesson by now?

When you try to clean up a mess you run the risk of creating an even bigger mess.

In any case, if we are going to interfere in the Middle East we should at least be consistent. If we insist that Iran gets rid of its nuclear weapons (which it may or may not have) then we should also insist equally vigorously that Israel (which definitely has them) should get rid of theirs.

[SeaMonkey]

SeaMonkey, you forgot to add this:
FACT: The US has never had a weapon we didn't use.

[DarkKobold]

If it won't happen, and we have no plan to do it...

Then why have we been flying unmanned aircraft ove Iran for over a year trying to map out its defenses?  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6960480/ - based out of Iraq I should add...

Ok, I hate Bush as much as the rest of you, but this is BS.

We have our boys and girls over in Iraq, trying to clean up Bush's mess, sittin right at the doorstep of Iran. You better be damn well sure that we are paying out the butt to see what is going on. A hostile territory so close to where we are doing a regime change is scary buisness.  C'mon, wake up and smell the coffee. If someone takes a crap and doesn't wipe,  the CIA probably knows, and rightfully should. Flying over Iran is smart buisness. We have to watch our backs.  A suitcase nuke could find its way into bahgdad pretty damn easy, and that would put an end to the "new democracy" pretty quick.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Flying over Iran is smart buisness. We have to watch our backs.  A suitcase nuke could find its way into bahgdad pretty damn easy, and that would put an end to the "new democracy" pretty quick.

Somehow, stomping around the globe, threatening unstable regimes, as Bush has done with both Iran and North Korea doesn't seem like a good idea to me then. It certainly hasn't stopped these loons from developing such weapons. In fact, it seems to be motivating them to produce them quicker.

Furthermore, his ingenious "with us or against us" foreign policy seems to be solidifying most everyone else against us.

"Dr.C"

[Crazy Cooter]

Would we saying it was "smart business" if Cuba started flying over the US?  Did we say it was smart business for Russia during the Cuban Missle Crisis?  We're the ones invading countries right now.  Can N. Korea fly over California and map out our defenses?  They feel threatened by us right now.  I think the world as a whole is getting fed up with our "do as we say, not as we do" mentality.

SeaMonkey, An atomic bomb is a nuke.  We used A-bombs (atomic) on Japan which are fission reactions.  The larger H-bombs (thermonuclear) are fusion based.  Both are nuclear reactions.  God help us all if we ever drop an H-bomb.  Anthrax/nerve gas are biological/chemical weapons.  You can search for "open air testing" to see what we've done with biological stuff and ask some rangers that were in Iraq the first time if we've used chemicals.  There were payouts made by the military if you signed certain documents... If you want to break it down specifically, we have weapons that we've never used.  If you want to talk genearally, we used everything we have and more than anyone else.  There are other historical examples too, Vietnam, WWII, etc.

[SeaMonkey]

No, "nuke" is slang for a hydrogen bomb on an ICBM.
A nuke uses an atom bomb as its primer.
Hydrogen bombs have never been deployed in a combat situation, either by us or others.

Neutron bombs have never been used by us...or anyone either, but we have been making them steadily since 1982.

Truth of the matter is, we can say, "well it isn't our business" and keep our noses out of the middle-east, but what you sow will bear fruit.
In fact, if you use gas, or plastic, you are contributing to the problem. There is no, "It doesn't concern me". And that goes double for the caucasians.

Let me put in the same way, but clearer.

Islamic Militants don't have a single weapon that they haven't used TODAY.  You let a group that will crash the plane THEY ARE IN, get nukes, and the world as you know it is over.

You think some jets falling from the sky hit our economy, wait until New York is gone.

Sleep well if you can, knowing how close they are to nukes.
Me, I hate to see the world go out like that.

Liberals will never live to see the day they can point to a flooded L.A. and say, "I told you it was getting warmer".  None of us will.

[fredster]

What should happen now?

(please, don't use the phrase "bush shoulda done this" or "that")

Lets talk about what we should do NOW.  We can't do anything about the past, but we can discuss what we should do in the future.

Should we invade? Should we use economic force? should we ...?

[shmokes]

Bush shoulda stayed out of Iraq.

[DrewKaree]

BUSH PROMISES TO BRING TROOPS HOME........THROUGH IRAN
Most Direct Route, President Says

Under pressure to detail an exit strategy for Iraq, President George W. Bush said at a White House briefing today that he would not designate an exact timetable for a withdrawal of U.S. troops but added,

[Crazy Cooter]

Here we go...
"Iran's intelligence chief on Wednesday accused the United States of flying spy drones over its nuclear sites and threatened to shoot down the unmanned surveillance crafts. "
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050216/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_nuclear

[Dexter]

IRAN: 'MISSILE BLAST NEAR NUKE PLANT'

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1171222,00.html

Watch this space.....

[Crazy Cooter]

"Meantime, Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said Wednesday that Iran is six months away from having the knowledge to build a nuclear bomb.

[DrewKaree]

Armageddon.

I heard God on the radio the other day talking about it...but He's a humble guy....He even said He didn't do the  radio interview so He could be one of those "read My book" kinda guys who goes around doing those interviews.

If it weren't so friggen big, I'd post the interview here...mebbe I can link it somehow.

[Crazy Cooter]

Looks like Russia is stepping up to the plate... Standing behind Iran.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6992154/

"Russian President Vladimir Putin said Friday that he is convinced Iran does not intend to develop nuclear weapons and said he plans to visit Iran.

Putin, at a meeting with Iranian National Security Council chief Hasan Rohani, also said Russia would continue its nuclear cooperation with Iran. Moscow has helped Iran build a nuclear reactor, a project that has been heavily criticized by the United States which fears it could be used to help Tehran develop nuclear weapons."

The lines are being drawn in the sand...

[fredster]

Do you guys on the left believe all the propoganda presented to you?

If we didn't exist, do you think that Iran would do anything differently than they do now?

[Crazy Cooter]

I don't know what anyone right-left-up-down believes, but I believe the propaganda that has a picture of Russian President Vladimir Putin and Iranian chief nuclear negotiator Hassan Rohani at the Kremlin together and a statement saying they are continuing with the reactor build.  Russia is saying that they will monitor what is happening there.

[SeaMonkey]

Looks like Russia is stepping up to the plate... Standing behind Iran.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6992154/

"Russian President Vladimir Putin said Friday that he is convinced Iran does not intend to develop nuclear weapons and said he plans to visit Iran.

Putin, at a meeting with Iranian National Security Council chief Hasan Rohani, also said Russia would continue its nuclear cooperation with Iran. Moscow has helped Iran build a nuclear reactor, a project that has been heavily criticized by the United States which fears it could be used to help Tehran develop nuclear weapons."

The lines are being drawn in the sand...

Well yeah...those plants were all but built by Russia, because they want to buy the power.....and switch opec to a basketed currency system of the Yen Dollar and Euro.....
I think I have been saying that.

[DrewKaree]

Yeah, I see Russia offering assistance in putting those reactors up and wonder if they are billing for those services.  It sounds like they didn't...kind of like a "you can pay me back later" deal, which would explain Putin's stance pretty darn well.  Where this is going..well, SeaMonkey presents a decent scenario.

SeaMonkey, I'd like to offer a solution, if I may:

Send in the clowns.  Take off the safeties, ship the clowns over there and invade Iran with them.  I can already imagine the pictures from CNN....red noses and floppy shoes ALL OVER that place!  Better yet, we could send over a few Yugos....those seem to hold TONS of clowns!  The Iranians would never know what hit them!  12 Yugos dropped into the middle of Iran, and clown after clown starts pouring out....the place would "reek" like havoc!

[Dexter]

Yeah, I see Russia offering assistance in putting those reactors up and wonder if they are billing for those services.

[DrewKaree]

I was going to say we should adopt SeaMonkey's tactic of sending in the clowns, and do a pre-emtpive strike in Ireland, but I see they made it there, and the Irish turned them to their way of thinking already

I'd like to end this with:

#5 AND 5b

#7

#13

#3

and #1

(fredster, when are you coming out with that checklist?  I'm getting TIRED of having to open another tab for that list)

[Dexter]

I was going to say we should adopt SeaMonkey's tactic of sending in the clowns, and do a pre-emtpive strike in Ireland, but I see they made it there, and the Irish turned them to their way of thinking already

No oil in Ireland man, so your invasion won't be profitable enough to swing support. When america figures out how to make SUVs run on turf, I'll worry 

[fredster]

Maybe no oil, but there's all that Whiskey. Think about it for a minute, we could convert our Evil Conservative Corporations to run on it.

We could enslave Dexter in the Whiskey mines and laugh while we whip him and the rest of his clan into indentured servitude.

yes, ahh, yessssss

[SeaMonkey]

Hopefully, every country threatened by america (that hasn't been pulverised so far) under the 'axis of evil' banner will have a viable deterrent against invasion soon, and will be allowed to sort out their internal strifes the proper way, THEMSELVES.

I'm all for that.

Also I am for every country that is hungry to FEED THEMSELVES.
Every country that is invaded by Germany to FREE THEMSELVES.
Every country riddled with AIDS to stop **** ******* THEMSELVES.

Etc etc etc.

I guess if other people were able to act right, we wouldn't have to make them.

[fredster]

Dexter,

#8, #3

[Crazy Cooter]

I'm sure Russia has *something* in mind.  All countries do.  Nobody gets something for nothing.

[fredster]

Yeah. I don't think Putin has given up on Russian world domination. That's a huge country with capitalistic potential that could boggle the mind. If they every get thier feces consolidated, they can do a great deal of business.  They must be needing an infusion of oil or places to market more energy.

I haven't figured the angle out with Iran. I'm not familiar enough with the Russian connection to Persia. They wanted Afgahnistan and all those other "stans" for some time.

Putin hasn't lost his KGB roots.

[Dexter]

Maybe no oil, but there's all that Whiskey. Think about it for a minute, we could convert our Evil Conservative Corporations to run on it.

We could enslave Dexter in the Whiskey mines and laugh while we whip him and the rest of his clan into indentured servitude.

Hmm, well now that you're getting the genocide thing out of your systems, I suppose that long overdue RETURN to the slave trade is on the cards

[SeaMonkey]

Hmm, well now that you're getting the genocide thing out of your systems, I suppose that long overdue RETURN to the slave trade is on the cards

[Dexter]

No....the repercussions of that are still a drain on our economy.

I admire your honesty/tactlessness LOL!

[SeaMonkey]

My apologies if that came off as a racial joke.

It's true. Any time you have a slave caste, you are banking against your country's future, when the slave caste becomes absorbed into the general economy.

Now if the population of slave to freeman is small, say, one in every 100 freeman has a single slave servent, then the impact would be small but still considerable. Here, 1 in 3 people in the southern states was a slave owner, and the average slave owner owned multiple slaves.

Over and above the immediate economic impact of caste-conversion, in this case, there were social and racial barriers that would not be easily over-looked. This built an economic wall, over which wealth was not likely to pass freely.

The result was the same for blacks that it had been for jews in europe. Ghettos. (The jews were not slaves, but there were similar pressures that forced them to be closed off from the outside world. )

So now we have a huge gap between blacks and whites.
Whites have a 22% out of wedlock birth rate.
Blacks have a 66% our ot wedlock birth rate.

Single unwed mothers ARE a drain on the economy and social programs.

AIDS is the 3rd leading cause of death for black males in their 20's.

Race riots have burnt down more realestate than slaves ever built in the U.S.

So all things considered, it was a loss for the country...if we are just talking dollars.

The above are facts. Democrats and Repulicans don't dispute any of them. They just dispute WHY the above facts are true.

On the other side of the coin, we did get peanubutter out of the deal, so I would call it about even.

[jbox]

It's true. Any time you have a slave caste, you are banking against your country's future, when the slave caste becomes absorbed into the general economy.

In purely monetary terms you have also completely ignored the fact that economies based on slave labour may be initially profitable, but tend to lack the keen sense of innovation that accompanies people having to do their own laundry. Remember, war and laziness are the two main sources of technological progress.

The Roman Empire used slaves far too much as part of their economy. Despite the fact that a few of their bright sparks actually developed *working* steam technology, the barrier to entry in a multi-tiered society was so bad that nobody ever developed it. Just imagine the Roman Empire with steam ships and trains...

And because I can't let that other one slip by - the only way a single parent can possibly become a net drain on the economy is if their kids aren't given the chance to have a decent education and a real job. Trying to budget a country the same way a CEO budgets a company misses two very important differences. But I believe the debate over public education is already being covered...

[fredster]

the barrier to entry in a multi-tiered society was so bad that nobody ever developed it. Just imagine the Roman Empire with steam ships and trains...

Man, that's a Star Trek Episode. Kirk had to fight the leader of the "sun" worshipers on The empire network. The romans wanted the Enterprise.  There's some culture there. 

[Dartful Dodger]

No oil in Ireland man, so your invasion won't be profitable enough to swing support. When america figures out how to make SUVs run on turf, I'll worry

[DrewKaree]

We can all rest easy now...this just in:

February 28, 2005
IRAN SAYS IT SEEKS TO BUILD NUCLEAR-POWERED BIRDHOUSE

Defends Choice of Science Fair Project

One day after the signing of a controversial deal calling for Russia to deliver nuclear fuel to Iran, Iran's vice president said that it only sought the fuel because it plans to build the world's first nuclear-powered birdhouse.

At a press conference in Tehran today, Vice President Gholamreza Aghazadeh
showed reporters extensive plans for the birdhouse, which, if constructed, would be the first of its kind anywhere in the world.

Calling the state-of-the-art birdhouse a potential boon for Iranian tourism, Mr. Aghazadeh said, "We believe that people will come from far and wide to see this awesome birdhouse."

But shortly after Mr. Aghazadeh's press conference, International Atomic Energy Agency chief Mohamed ElBaradei said that the plans for the birdhouse, while "impressive," were still cause for international concern.

"At this time we can see no rationale for building a birdhouse ringed with intermediate-range nuclear weapons," he said.

In response to Mr. ElBaradei's comments, Iran's vice president seemed to change his tune, saying that Iran was only planning to build the nuclear-powered birdhouse "for a science fair."

"For some time, Iran has been curious about what effect living in a nuclear-powered birdhouse would have on birds used to living in a normal birdhouse," he said.

In Washington, President Bush announced the U.S. would shortly announce a science fair project of its own, which would involve measuring the effect of Tomahawk cruise missiles on nuclear-powered birdhouses.

Elsewhere, actor Sean Penn explained his behavior on Oscar night, saying that he was preparing for his next film in which he plays "a pompous ass."