Dragon's Lair Sideart

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I have tried to upload it to the ibrary but has failed several times.

Its in AI format but still 10Mb in size and requires some expert in AI to sort i out for me.....I have no clue what I'm doing in AI.

Mahuti, Zorg and ravage probably could bash it up properly for me in no time at all.

It's a Classic Piece or art....please take pity on me?

[zorg]

check pm

[zorg]

the file is just the import of a pixmap dragonlair sideart.

sorry but at this momment I can't trace it.
I'm currectly busy at work and the next 4 month will be more busy.

I'm also currently busy with tracing. I have to finish some started vector work. Rock & Rope side art, xevious side art and Space Invader (bezel and CPO)

thus I propose to put the file online. I can host it, I guess mahuti could to (in the non vector art section) and call for someone to trace it.

what do you think. ?

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thus I propose to put the file online. I can host it, I guess mahuti could to (in the non vector art section) and call for someone to trace it.

what do you think. ?

I'm easy, if your busy and someone else thinks they can pick it up and play with it such as Ravage....please feel free to allow access to them.

[Oddfeld]

Dragon's Lair sideart is one of the few pieces of arcade artwork you can actually obtain legally, since the Bluth group have officially licensed Arcade Renovations to produce repros.

It'd be a shame to tread on anyone's toes here...

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Dragon's Lair sideart is one of the few pieces of arcade artwork you can actually obtain legally, since the Bluth group have officially licensed Arcade Renovations to produce repros.

It'd be a shame to tread on anyone's toes here...

I can't see alot of people running for their wallets to pay U$110.00 for it!

Besides, every piece of artwork in the library treads on every arcade renovation graphic company;s toes and further more the very same companies download our art and charge people for it!

Therefore as a arguement, I dont see any reason why we can't reproduce art for free. After all we aren't profitting from our hard work unlike they are!

[Oddfeld]

Most stuff sold by repro companies is abandonware that noone has bothered to chase copyrights on and so the repro companies are in the same legally grey area that we're in. However, Dragon's Lair still remains popular - PC/DVD versions pop up every so often, etc - so the copyright holders are still a going concern (the same could be said of Namco etc but I don't think they're particularly interested in chasing up usage of their 20 old properties). Arcade Renovations have actually gone to the trouble of getting the copyright holder's permission to produce this one piece of art legally.

If you vectorise most artwork, a company selling repros of it can't really hassle Mahuti for hosting it since they don't own the copyright, they're just selling dodgy knock-offs like everyone else. In this instance though, you run the risk of upsetting a licensed distributor.

As for it being $110, that is for both sides - have you found anywhere particularly cheaper for getting vinyl sideart printed?

_{[edit: deleted me spouting rubbish after actually going and looking at a pic of a DL cab]}

[Oddfeld]

I should add, I have no problem with it being vectorised and uploaded to the archive, I couldn't care less who does/doesn't make money off it etc - I just don't want to see the rest of the free art go offline due to legal hassle over 1 item.

I don't think in general that repro companies are racketeering though, small print runs are expensive...

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I just don't want to see the rest of the free art go offline due to legal hassle over 1 item.

There are many items that are being offically reproduced that appear in the library, why do you suppose that Dragon's Lair is the straw that breaks the camels back?

I'm not sure why you think this, personally I would think Nintendo would take more of an interest if that was the case with their lawsuits against pirates.

As for it being $110, that is for both sides - have you found anywhere particularly cheaper for getting vinyl sideart printed?

So whats the problem? If you know that U$110.00 is an exellent price for both sides, therefore why would anyone want to download our efforts and pay for it to printed on vinyl for much much more? Therefore they already know they have us arcade nuts by the short and curlies surely?

[Ravage]

Actually its a bloody good point. Bluth does chase his legal rights

Way before the current available repros, some were made and the seller literally had men in black arrive! I've only heard this done for Dragons Lair and Tron.

So yeah, perhaps, knowing its available and knowing it'd be dangerous to rip off something that ISN'T abandonware as we know Bluth/DL is still current, I suggest we let it drop out of the limelight - sorry and SPace Ace

Regards,
Rav

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So why isn't anyone complaining about Miss Pac-Man, Pac-Man or Galaga when TWO-BITS (http://www.twobits.com/) have the NAMCO license to reproduce artwork legally?

Seems like people pick and choose what they believe in what

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Further more with RETRO gaming becoming extremely popular again and with major Arcade manufacturers making new versions of old classics such as Space Invaders by TAITO and of course Nintendo with Mario Bros and Donkey Kong/Junior we shoudl start to remove those files too?

How far do we go before nothing is left to vectorise due to legal issues?

My argument is preservation not profiteering. That

[zorg]

OK

1) the dragonlair (version 1 as version 2) side art are yet available on caga. thuseverybody could have acces to them. There's no need to add one more sharing point.

2) I don't want to bash anyone regarding the price the reproers takes for printng, but just keep in mind that the price is dependent on the quality you could obtain.

• the professional large size printers are fairly expensives.
• you need to have some experienced operator to run those beast
• support vinyl, paper, adhesive, etc arre also firly expensive.
• one more point that made the price is the kind of ink used. if you use some UV resistant ink, this will increase the price, but this will also greatly increase the life of your cabinet decoration

considering this I think most of the good reproers out there provide fairly reasonable price.

I an garantee that the same file printed by your own way will NOT be comparable with the same file printed by a professional printer.

3) leagal issues ?
we provide some artwork reprduction that are/were/still copyrigthed. YES. but we do not make profit on those files.
thus maybee I'm to much naive, but I think that this is regarded as acceptable by some of companies that holds the rigths.
is it a reason to "walk on the shoes" of the rigths holder, I don't know.

4) one more thing, someone on this thread told about  preservation. I should admit that I'm sort of disagree with this.
could any vector art be as accurate as a good high quality scan or the original films ?
even with the most precise attention when tracing, I have to say that I can't be as precise as it should for preservation
color matching is always a difficult problem.

the idea of under vector art is scaling.
I cant get the reference to the Frostillicus original post describing why we should use vector graph for custom quality artwork production. this way we could produce any custom art with the choosen size without loosing quality.
but as far as I remember preservation was not the point.
in the begining when the vector repository idea was launched I stated that we should just focuse on individual characters or parts from the original arts. not the whole side art/cpo/marquee (I since changed my mind) in order to get the artist here to produce original (original in terms of newly composed) artwork with great quality stuff.

just as remember:
original call for a central repository http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,8074.0.html and first repository setting by Mametrix-Reloaded http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,8074.msg59423.html#msg59423
next Mahuti (tahnk's again) great job http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,16464.msg129901.html#msg129901
 

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the dragonlair (version 1 as version 2) side art are yet available on caga. thuseverybody could have acces to them. There's no need to add one more sharing point.

But CAGA's is not vectorised and is in EPS format and 300Mb in size uncompressed. A nice vector of both Space Ace and Dragon's Lair would be nice.

I don't want to bash anyone regarding the price the reproers takes for printng, but just keep in mind that the price is dependent on the quality you could obtain.

• the professional large size printers are fairly expensives.
• you need to have some experienced operator to run those beast
• support vinyl, paper, adhesive, etc arre also firly expensive.
• one more point that made the price is the kind of ink used. if you use some UV resistant ink, this will increase the price, but this will also greatly increase the life of your cabinet decoration

considering this I think most of the good reproers out there provide fairly reasonable price.

I can garantee that the same file printed by your own way will NOT be comparable with the same file printed by a professional printer.

If so, making a vector for download at the library will not effect any sales officially licensed repros at Arcade Renovations due to this very fact ie PRICE! Nobody could ever hope to compete with professional printers.

Legal issues ?
we provide some artwork reprduction that are/were/still copyrigthed. YES. but we do not make profit on those files.
thus maybee I'm to much naive, but I think that this is regarded as acceptable by some of companies that holds the rigths.
is it a reason to "walk on the shoes" of the rigths holder, I don't know.

So Zorg, do you agree that we should allow Dragon's Lair and other licensed art to be vectorised and made available for download or not? We have already established that it wouldnt effect officially licensed repros anyway!

one more thing, someone on this thread told about

[Ravage]

That logic means we are all wasting our time. If we think in preservation terms, then its worth continuing.....

OK. I vector for several reasons.

1: If I had a shocking cabinet at RetroKade that needed restoration - ala ROlling Thunder, I'd like replacement repro artwork.
2: None available from a worthy repro house? Ok I could a) do it myself at arcadeart.com, b) plead with the world to do it, or c) do the vector file, make it publc and hope a decent repro becomes available!
3: I do it as I think *I* personally, a owner of 150+ machines and a business trying to preserve real arcade games for prosperity that the side-art/artwork/cabs are AS important as the game itself. RetroKade doesnt have any generic cabs
4: I find it satisfying to vaguely do something creative

In the case of Space Invaders, I took a poll, asked collectors whether to make a run of 50 (min for silk screening) I didn't get hardly any resposnes - actually 2 years ago a collector rpoduced 50 off which I'd missed te boat on - so I upped the file here. Equally, at several times, I've met Taito staff - they take a different view to their copyrighted material: from what I can ascertain, they believe (correctly) that with Space Invaders, they have created a cultural item and not something particualrly they can control. Having said that, they've done re-issues, PSX games, etc. But they too are too big to care about people like us doing it to restore our cabs - this is like MAME here - we ARE entitled to repro the artwork because we own the originals.

However, from my experience, I KNOW Bluth Industries don't see it this way. Heck, a couple of years back a re-issue arcade machine came out. The DVDs appear constantly. Heck, even a guy doing posters on ebay got suspended. Bluth, perhaps correctly, believes that his artwork is his intellectual right, and he has the right to protect that - and I've seen him exact out that right on people who made repros in the past.

Again, Disney, Tron side-art. Made from the original bromides, the guy in Canada had blacksuits arrive and repossess them. I've never heard from the guy again so god knows whther they took him to court.

I appreciate what your saying about adding artwork becuase what we are doing by making it public domain feels right to us, but I'm just giving my 6 years of experience to this thread. I think it would be pretentious of us to fly in the face of these experiences and host the artwork.

When it boils down to it, its up to MAHUTI as it's his ftp/web systems and he would be the target.

I just hope I dont have to get to the point that I'm leeching *everything* from this site just in case it gets shut down, becuase we're foolish enough to think we are 100% in the right here.

Regards,
Rav

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Rav,I know what your saying but its a double standard.

One minute we are saying its abandonware and Dragon's Lair fits that decription by it being 1983 and its now 2005 (some mentioned a so called 20 year rule, but nobody can legally verify if this is true or not)

Secondly, other artwork in the library contravenes this.

All Pac-Man, Ms pac-man, Galaga and TAITO Space Invaders artwork be it just characters or full pieces, must also be deleted and stopped too.

Also, if we take into account Nintendo artwork aswell, we are really in the doo doo, Nintendo has an indefinate copyright on ANY Mario related material. They claim that as its a continuing character game series it therefore automatically updates the copyright each new game released.

Which I guess they are right.

By your comments I assume you agree with me on the preservation side of things? ie your vectorsing to save and preserve your old arcade cabinets. I think this is why we have all come together to help one another out on this matter and I'm all for it.

Strangely though, Zorg mentions that a Professional print from a repro house is going to be much much better quality and also much much cheaper to buy using Dragon's Lair as a good example.

If reproductions house's have artwork already available AND can produce it much more cheaply than all of us, where does that leave the vector project?

AND taking into consideration the legal issues shoudl we be doing it at all?

I want it to continue, but teh double standards have got to stop.

We need strict rules.....and verified legal standings on abandonware if it such exists.

[zorg]

So Zorg, do you agree that we should allow Dragon's Lair and other licensed art to be vectorised and made available for download or not? We have already established that it wouldnt effect officially licensed repros anyway!

I'm not the one that have to agree or not.

But listen, the thing is this, we are making vector artwork to allow arcade enthuisists to complet there arcade cabs for non profit. Some of the artwork is not available for purchase on any website but we have some good stuff. I call this preservation for that very reason.

you've got the point.

That logic means we are all wasting our time. If we think in preservation terms, then its worth continuing.....

yes we waste time
but I'll continue to be a waster.

[Oddfeld]

Actually that 300MB file from CAGA is so big (300dpi at actual size I think) and the colours so uniform (probably rasterised from someone's existing vector artwork) that I've got a pretty good autotrace off of it, I just need to tidy it up a bit.

[mahuti]

Absolutely vector the files. The worst that can happen (with the files) is that they won't be publicly available at some point in the future. I do not like to discuss copyright or infringment at all. I also do not like to guess who will be infringed upon. My main concern is with the documentation & maintenance of classic art, which should be protected for the future.

[Oddfeld]

OK, it's up in the archive.

[rohan]

Awesome...Now I dare you to Vectorize DL2's sideart 

[chukdotcom]

For those that are interested, I am the current license holder of dragon's lair and space ace artwork.  My product is sold through the arcaderenovations.com website.  Just to address the issue of pricing, I have to pay a % royalty to Bluth on every piece sold.  In addition, I had to pay to aquire the license.  Those costs have to be factored into the final selling price.  The other issue is the quantity that is required to be printed.  If I was just printing one set at a time (not possible), I would be able to sell it cheaper.  However, if you have to pay for 100 sets up front, you need to be able to recoup some of that investment faster than if you were just paying for 1 due to the risk involved.  These are not actual numbers, but lets look at a rough example.  Let's say I have to pay $3000 for the license, and it costs me $60 a set.  I go ahead and get 100 sets printed (realistically the minimum you can do on a run).  I'm out $9000.  Let's say I sell 30 sets at $110 each.  That gets me $3300, and after royalties, less than 3k.  Sure, I made a profit on each individual set sold, but I'm still in the hole $6000.  There is no guarantee that I will ever sell the other 70 sets.  Now that I've rambled on, I'd like to offer you readers a set of dragon's lair artwork for $95 + shipping.  Email me directly at john@ourcade.com, and you must mention that you saw this post in order to get that pricing.

[mahuti]

$95 is a great price. Course, so is $110. Large size printing isn't cheap, especially if it's high quality.

[darkmavis]

if i had a dl cab id be very happy paying for that (knowing its origonal) and licenced would make me feel good

[prOk]

On this topic, I think to a certain point it's a matter of respect.  If someone is actively selling and protecting their copyrights (and yes, artwork even 20 years old is copyrighted) then we should all respect that and avoid doing anything that could damage them.   At the same time, if someone does custom artwork that is not only copyrighted, but brand new that should also be respected.   It is naiive and dangerous to make the assumption that because it's 20 years old, it's public domain because that is simply not true.  Imagine if for whatever reason someone at namco decided to go after any site that offered artwork for download and wanted 1.00 for every time it was downloaded as damages.   I'm not saying it will happen, but it does tread a very dangerous line that could happen.   Some companies defend their copyrights vigorously, it is prudent to not open yourself up to potential legal issues on personal opinion as you'll lose every time.  I love the fact that there are pieces on localarcade that I just cannot find from any repro house or licensed dealer, and that is what that site is all about..  Having artwork uploaded that is readily available at a fair price serves no purpose aside from putting the owner of the site in a precarious position should an active copyright holder take interest.

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On this topic, I think to a certain point it's a matter of respect.

[mahuti]

Well, whatever. I've stated before that I will remove anything on the site immediately, by owner / agent request. No hesitation, no questions asked. My effort is not to infringe or impede, only to document.