Network Play? (again)

[TOK]

I'm in PA and have a relative in NY. We'd love to get some multiplayer Robotron or something going. I searched here and found the info on Kaillera and some other kind of cryptic info about network support being built into MAME32, but it all seems like dead ends. Kaillera seems to be an abandoned side project, and the forums over there are a bit grim. I think I actually felt myself getting stupider as I read them. 

We both have cabs and high speed internet connections, so this would be a blast. Not even necessarily looking to play simultaneous stuff, just looking for something better than sending high score screen shots of Donkey Kong back and forth. I'm also open to some suggestions for some regular PC games that would play great on 2 networked cabs.

[Hiub1]

That is a great idea! Imagine a network service so that all of us with cabs here can link up and play some Street Fighter, Smash TV or something like that. From what I know, Kaillera still works, but I don't know to what extent. Anybody else have any input on this?

[TheGatesofBill]

I did some work on it, and its still on my to do list. Blame school.

[Howard_Casto]

Just for the record:

Kaillera lags seriously on anything with more than two buttons.  Because of that, neither smashtv nor street fighter will play well on the service.  It's actually rather primative and has little to no syncing, which makes for an unenjoyable experience all around. 

Long story short... 

Online tetris =Yes
Online Mortal Kombat = Big fat No

Also in general it's kinda laggy anyway.

Works great on a small lan, but over the net it's a roll of the dice if the syncing will hold and two people will actually be able to play properly. 

Probably a better solution would be to get someone to hack directplay support into the windows port of mame.  It's very efficient when it comes to sending inputs and can easy handle about 36 at a time with dozens of people with little to no lag. 

Just my 2 cents based on when )p( sirp and myself looked into it a few years back. (Around the time when they stopped updating it.)

[)p(]

Just my 2 cents based on when )p( sirp and myself looked into it a few years back. (Around the time when they stopped updating it.)

oh yes..working network play would have been perfect for 3darcade's online arcades...or better the only really good reason that feature exists at all...maybe someday

peter

[wboy]

I'm sorry, but with a good ping between the two+ parties, I've had more than enjoyable kaillera battles on Street Fighter 2 Hyper Fighting, while running Skype at the same time.

Its been said before.  I won't repeat myself.

See round 1 of this argument at http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,19879.0.html

Never heard the "more than two buttons" problem before.

Lower your latency to enjoy kaillera.  Unfortuantely if the two parties are quite a distance apart, this may not be possble.

[Lilwolf]

The only real solution I can see would be this.

Come up with a good generic design that works directly with mame.  This would require working only with streams (since almost every other protocol will by OS specific).

submit the proposal with comments.

Get the generic OK from the mame team that if done right, it will be submitted.

Mainly because I don't believe that any network solution that isn't in the main destribution will be used.  Remember, Linux still has a good network solution right now. 

I'm curious about how you could keep the cpus sync'd or do you just move the inports around? 

I could see a good solution would be to seperate the video hardware emulation and the CPUs.  So you have one computer with the cpus going.. and both with input/output and clone cpus... 

Then you send across the link all requests to load cpu registers -> video hardware (with values).  memory range -> video memory (range only) ect.  Then inputs go through..

but I'm not sure if thats too much infomation to really send across a link...

[TOK]

I can see how this gets really complicated with the two player simultaneous games. Unfortunately, I think the fighters are what most people want, and thats where the huge variety of processor and connection speed variables screw the game syncronization up. I'd love to just have a very basic peer-to-peer setup built into a front end that just lets you share a game in as close to realtime as the network will allow. I don't even care if the screen lags or glitches while the other guy is playing, just so score info is maintained.

I don't even think cross-platform support should be bothered with at first. Since MAME32 is so well integrated into Windows, it seems like it'd be a natural for network play, and you start from the easiest launching point. Not saying Linux and Mac aren't good options, just that they're more of a fringe and that stuff can be added as the project matures. If I was into Linux, I'd probaby just set up a dual-boot and only use Windows when I wanted to play multi-player.
This is kind of a tangent, but when I first started my cab, I tried Mandrake Linux, and didn't really find any compelling reasons to choose it over Windows XP with unnecessary services disabled. Windows booted faster, and the game speed was identical on my 2ghz Pentium.

[Howard_Casto]

I'm sorry, but with a good ping between the two+ parties, I've had more than enjoyable kaillera battles on Street Fighter 2 Hyper Fighting, while running Skype at the same time.

Its been said before.

[sac01]

I've had a version of this installed in my cab in addition to regular mame for a couple of years, and it is rather buggy, but i have had some great nights of playing gauntlet II with 4 players scattered all over the world, (usually friends from IRC)

So it is worth messing around with, but don't expect every game to work perfectly.

sac
 

[Howard_Casto]

This is kind of a tangent, but when I first started my cab, I tried Mandrake Linux, and didn't really find any compelling reasons to choose it over Windows XP with unnecessary services disabled. Windows booted faster, and the game speed was identical on my 2ghz Pentium.

Side note...  This is absolutely and completely true and yet people determined to run linux ignore my comments and do it anyway only adding to their own problems.  Unless the machine is really crappy and the version of linux is really old, guied linux runs about that same as windows as far as resources are concerned.  And lets face it, if you hardware is that crappy, you are probably better off going with dos. 

Linux doesn't support true hardware acceleration, it's slow to bootup, slow to shutdown, and your choices in software are cut by a factor of 100.  If we are being perfectly honest here, I can't see how linux would be a good choice for a cabinet ever, regardless of the hardware, software and additional factors involved.  And while we are at it, the same goes for macs.  You pay 3 times as much of the hardware only to find that your software choices are again cut by a factor of 100 (ok macs are a little better, maybe 80). 

In fact, I challenge anyone to find a legitimate reason to use any os other than windows (or dos if the machine is really really old). 

Hint:  "It's more stable", "It runs better", "it boots faster" or "It looks better" are all myths in the linux and mac communities.  Besides, point #3 is invalid on a mame cab. 

Go ahead, flame away.  It's just these "which os do I use?"  posts are starting to tick me off. 

It's not a complicated thought process, windows xp is the most popular (and arguably the best) desktop os out there, so you shoot for xp as it offers the most support, biggest variety of software, and best hardware compatability.  If your system can't handle it, you go to 98se and if that's too much then you are forced to run dos. 

Picking a os is as simple as reading the minimum system requirements on the side of an xp box and seeing if you can run it. 

Ok I'm done, sorry to go off-topic like that. 

[Lilwolf]

Linux can use opengl... just not by default. 

Linux is for people who has more time then money imho.  Good OS if you have the time to learn.  But other then that... for 95% of the people Windows is the way to go.  Of course... Linux is MUCH better then it was 5 years ago... night and day... And in another 5 years it will probably be easier still....  But for now...

Do you think anyone could write a network layer that wasn't accepted in the main archive that would be used by more then a few people?  Thats why I was hoping for a socket version (because then it would work on any platform without a huge amount of time)

DirectPlay is the way to handle inputs for sure... and that shouldn't be all that hard to handle...  But how do you handle processor sync'n between multiple machines?  Randoms would be...well....different on different systems.  It seems like Street fighters type games wouldn't be a bit problem... but AI differences for gauntlet ect would be a problem...  It seems like it would be really hard to have two sets of processors 'controlling' a single game..

[Howard_Casto]

Well directplay also supports the syncing of data streams as well.  I think it could handle the data needed for a total sync, but I'm not sure what data would be needed.  I think to do it right each individual game would have to send a custom set of variables to sync. 

My head hurts thinking of the work that would be involved.   

[terryd]

The only realy advantage one OS has over another is what the user has more experience with or is more comfortable using.  It is totally a personal prefrence.  All major Operating Systems today are comparable with one another functionally and stability wise.  At least for the average user on a desktop machine.  HC is absoultely right in that MS has the corner of the application market.

-Terryd

[wboy]

Keeping it short.... probably wont address all issues.... but....

re:skype... yeah, enough noise to be considered as "talking".  Minor slow downs here and, but am happy to live with that.

desync has only every really happened to me when I was on dialup trying to play others on DSL.  Those days are long gone.

on a LAN its never been an issue.   Unlikes SNES9X's crappy net play which desyncs like crazy even on a LAN

I know kaillera does have its limitations, but without having to spell it out in my post (e.g. CPU differences/intensity and all other possible factors), working within particular boundries its is pretty sweet what can be achieved with it.

Including those 6 button games.

[Lilwolf]

OK... I haven't played with it in a year... But I think its time to get out kaillera again and see how well it does on some classics.

But Howard... I think you have to sync the processors and the inputs... And let each system do the outputs.  I question random numbers though...

[Howard_Casto]

The only realy advantage one OS has over another is what the user has more experience with or is more comfortable using.

[hulkster]

well howard i dont know if you were playing with a slower pc or something like that but when i played, i played 4 player ninja turtles with no lag whatsoever.  granted i played this on my pc as i just found out about the network play (2.4 ghz, 1gb RAM, 9800pro gfx card, etc.) and i guess that had something to do with it, and im sure that it would lag on my mame cab, but i never tried it.  so 4 players with 2 buttons (again, 2 buttons...so does that fall into your 2 button category??)  worked fine. 

[mnm1200]

well, linux could be your best bet depending on the size of one's pocketbook...