Schrodinger's Box (and an impromptu quantum physics discussion)

[Nephus]

Well, I've been trying to get myself motivated enough to build an arcade cabinet for years, and I think I'm finally at that point.  I've got a few local arcade companies confused as hell as to why I would want a broken arcade machine without a screen in it, but they're checking their warehouses and will call me back tomorrow with some prices and what cabs they have taking up space.  Hell, if I'm lucky, I might even manage to pull a freebie out of this.  

I'm calling it Schrodinger's Box after the rather famous Schrodinger's cat experiment.  For those of you not in the know, the cat experiment was an attempt to explain some issues with quantum physics.  They put a cat, and an easily broken vial of cyanide in a large lead box, then shut the lid.  Until they actually observed the cat by opening the lid, they had no idea if they actually had a cat or a corpse.  It all depended on if the cat had broken the vial.  In a sense, before they opened the lid, they had a potential cat.  Since a MAME arcade system is pretty much potentially any game in existance, I thought the name fit.

The plan is to create a 4 player setup that will allow me to play pretty much everything without creating a frankenpanel.  I have a few ideas that I haven't seen around here yet that I've been scribbling on scratch paper as far as panel design goes, and I think I've come up with an interesting solution to having a 4 player panel, but still being able to play pinball without 20' arms.

Here's what I want this  baby to do:
MAME (duh)
4 player panel that reuses a lot of the controls to handle different games (using p1 and p2 joys for tank control, etc.)
Jukebox
StepMania (with custom built dance pads)
Old computer games (i.e. doom)
External AV connectors for console games and VCR
Pinball buttons, vibration sensors (for tilt), and knocker solenoids to recreate the experience as much as possible.  I've even toyed with the idea of getting a spring loaded handle for launching the pinball at the beginning. (I'm a serious pinball addict)
Console emulation for all those impossible to find cartridges
Eventually adding a real arcade light gun, as soon as I can bring myself to spend $300 for the Happ gun and ror3 usb board. BTW, does anyone know of a cheaper solution than the ror3 board? It just seems severely overpriced to me. *shrug*
Anything else I haven't thought of yet.

I figure it should take me most of a year to get a lot of the extra functionality put together, but it should be worth it.  Pretty much I'm just planning to get whatever arcade cab I can for cheap, a TV, an i-pac, and a mini-itx board... then just play what I can from there.  Eventually I'll order joysticks and buttons to do the whole panel I want, but by that time I should have a lot of the other functionality finished.

Questions, comments, ninjas?

[GameDork]

So What happened to the cat?

[stealthboy]

Please note that it is a *thought* experiment.  Nobody actually put a cat in a box with poison.  Also, there is a radioactive element triggering device to break the vial of poison, so there is truly a random chance.

The real outcome is that some physicists then interpret the cat being in a state of being both alive and dead at the same time.  The way particles can be thought to be in several states at once until you actually perform a  measurement.

This is one way of interpreting the state function, or probablity function, of a particle.  I personally do not hold this particular interpretation, but the cat-in-the-box thought experiment at least gets people thinking about how truly weird QM is.

Sorry, that's my physics degree coming out there.  Anyways, back to arcade discussions....  It is a great name for an arcade!

[Nephus]

oh yeah, forgot to mention that it never actually happened.

Of course, Schrodinger was quoted later in life as saying "I wish I had never met that cat."

[GameDork]

Man, I hated Physics....

Edit: And STILL DO!!

[Witchboard]

Pinball buttons, vibration sensors (for tilt), and knocker solenoids to recreate the experience as much as possible.  I've even toyed with the idea of getting a spring loaded handle for launching the pinball at the beginning. (I'm a serious pinball addict)

This site has some instructions on plunger and knocker circuits.  Hope this helps out.

[Mameotron]

I Love the Name!!!

I'm so happy that there is someone else out there who enjoys talking about theoretical physics.  I don't have a degree, but I LOVE reading about it.  I have to admit, sadly, that the math is generally beyond me.  Anyway, great cabinet name!  I can at least appreciate your sense of humor.  I'm so tired of saying, "So, how do you stand on the Copenhagen interpretation?"  and getting glassy stares.

I guess you can say right now your cab is in a superposition of states!

Oh, yeah, I also don't buy the Copenhagen Interpretation, because where do you draw the line when something is actually observed and collapses the wave function of the other state?

[Nephus]

@Witchboard: Thanks for the link.  I had no idea anyone else had gone to the trouble of putting in an actual plunger before.  So much for being entirely original. heh.  Still though, at least I thought of the idea independantly.  I'm still sticking with my original implementation theory utilizing a microswitch for simplicity (I'll post a quick photoshopped sketch when I'm not running solely on caffiene and nicotine) but the optical method is one way of going about things.  I guess it just depends on what you're more comfortable working with.  I got my idea after fiddling a bit with one of the projectors at work last night, and seeing how microswitches were implemented in the failsafe device within it.  (I'm a projectionist at a movie theater)


I actually agree with the Copenhagen interpretation to an extent.  I mean, it goes back to the whole "if a tree falls in the woods, and there is no one around to hear it... does it make a sound?" thing.  To be perfectly honest... we don't know the answer.  Yes, it makes a sound every time we observe it... but how do we know for absolute certainty that it does when we don't?  It's impossible.  Perception is the true reality.

[Witchboard]

@Witchboard: Thanks for the link.  I had no idea anyone else had gone to the trouble of putting in an actual plunger before.  So much for being entirely original.

Something I've come to realize in this hobby.  If you think of it, it's most likely already been done.  When I first started I thought that a MAME cabinet was original.  The cool thing is it may not be an original idea, but that means at least there's documentation out there.  Good luck and keep us posted on your project.

[RayB]

I actually agree with the Copenhagen interpretation to an extent.  I mean, it goes back to the whole "if a tree falls in the woods, and there is no one around to hear it... does it make a sound?" thing.  To be perfectly honest... we don't know the answer.  Yes, it makes a sound every time we observe it... but how do we know for absolute certainty that it does when we don't?  It's impossible.  Perception is the true reality.

Uhh yeah we DO know the answer. I like to think we've learned enough to move beyond this whole "perception as reality" thing. yeah each person can have a different perception of the same things, thus creating different "realities", but when dealing with the physical world, facts are facts.

We know that sound is actually just the reverberation of our ear drums by displaced particles in the air/water etc. Knowing this fact, we know that a tree falling in the woods will cause displacement of these particles regardless if someone is there to have their ear drums affected!!

That whole tree falling in the woods saying is way too primitive to have the same impact today (well maybe ignorant little kids can still think of it as enlightening). To me that old saying is equivalent to saying "if you don't see the tree falling on you, will it still hurt?" And the answer is, HELL YEAH!

[Nephus]

We know that sound is actually just the reverberation of our ear drums by displaced particles in the air/water etc.

Oh, there's no doubt that there will be displacement waves which could be interpreted as sound, but if there are no ear drums around to do so... is it anything more than a wave?  Sound implies the action of listening.

[stealthboy]

That whole tree falling in the woods saying is way too primitive to have the same impact today (well maybe ignorant little kids can still think of it as enlightening). To me that old saying is equivalent to saying "if you don't see the tree falling on you, will it still hurt?" And the answer is, HELL YEAH!

Read a book on Quantum Mechanics and your head will spin.  Not necessarily because of the math involved, but because particle physics really is that messed up .  Just look at an electron interfering with itself in the double-slit experiment.  Then look at it again.  And wonder.  And this isn't just "theory".  Quantum Mechanics holds up to experiment.

Here's a little intro to the experiment:
http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/GeneralInterest/Harrison/DoubleSlit/DoubleSlit.html

If you're not completely amazed then you didn't read it right.

The issue with the Copenhagen Interpretation is just trying to get at what it means for a particle to have a probability function.  Once you measure a particle's position or velocity or spin, then the prob function collapses into the observed state.  But, does the particle really exist in a mish-mash of all states when you're not observing it as the probability function suggests?  Or is it just that the probability function is merely a mathematic construct that happens to predict the probabilities seen in observation?  Personally, I think there is more to it than the Copenhagen Interpretation, but that gets into the world of Superstring theory.

Physics rules!  And I love the fact that we're discussing this on an arcade forum.

[Nephus]

Well, I always thought of the Copenhagen Interpretation as a way to overcome our limitations in perception through mathematical construct.  Yes, all this is happening at the same time, but we only have the powers of perception to figure out part of it at any given moment.

[RayB]

Sound is just a vague human label to something much more complex. So I still don't buy the over-simplification. The question itself is flawed. It should be "if a tree falls in the woods, does it displace molecules, blah blah..."   Whatever.

I read about the double slit laser light experiment. Very interesting. I don't buy the parallel universe theory though.

~Ray B.

[stealthboy]

I read about the double slit laser light experiment. Very interesting. I don't buy the parallel universe theory though.

The weird part is not the *light* experiment.  That's expected, right, because light has historically been thought of as waves.  The weird part is the same thing happens with an *electron*, which has historically been thought of as a particle with one position.

It's also one thing to do the double-slit experiment with millions of electrons and think that it just builds up the interference pattern because electrons can behave like waves and they interfere with other electrons.  But then you do the experiment with ONE electron at a time, and each electron interferes with itself to be detected in a position predicted by the superposition of two probability functions (interference).  

A great book that is out now that explains all these odd mysteries in layman's terms is "The Fabric of the Cosmos" by Brian Greene.  I highly recommend it.  It covers Special and General Relativity, Quantum Physics, and Superstring theory.

[Mameotron]

Here is a link for MIT's class on Philosophy of Quantum Mechanics.  You can see the lecture notes from when this class was taught in 2002.  You can still get the gist of what they are saying.  Man, I would love to take a class like this.  Totally Mindblowing!!

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Linguistics-and-Philosophy/24-111Philosophy-of-Quantum-MechanicsSpring2002/CourseHome/index.htm

I guess I should have been a little more clear earlier.  I think the Copenhagen Interpretaiton is the best model we have, to an extent.  But, isn't that what most people think, and it's only how far we take it that we disagree on.  For example:

When the scientist opens the box and finds the live cat, the state of the dead cat collapses.  But then the scientist has a massive heart attack and dies instantly.  Does the wave function re-establish, and the laboratory become the new box, waiting for the lab assistant to open the door to discover the true state of the cat?

[Nephus]

wow.. I've never thought of that one.  I'd say that once the cat has been observed that now it is in a finite state, but that situation does open a whole new can of worms.

[Nephus]

yeah, it's a double post.. you'll live  


Currently I've hit a roadblock.  The arcade owner I talked to wants to sell me a cab for $225.  Don't know the condition or what cab yet (can't get him on the phone after he left me that message), but that seems a little pricey to me.  I'm gonna check with another local guy and see what I can come up with.  If that doesn't work, I'll start checking in my old college town that's an hour's drive away.  I don't mind the trip or the gas if it'll save me at least $100.

[Martoon]

Of course, Schrodinger was quoted later in life as saying "I wish I had never met that cat."

I'm guessing the cat wasn't too thrilled about meeting him, either.

[BobbyG66]

The plan is to create a 4 player setup that will allow me to play pretty much everything without creating a frankenpanel.  I have a few ideas that I haven't seen around here yet that I've been scribbling on scratch paper as far as panel design goes, and I think I've come up with an interesting solution to having a 4 player panel, but still being able to play pinball without 20' arms.

So, any pics of these diagrams?
I have been working on a design for four players, plus pinball controls. Interested to see what you come up with.

[Nephus]

I'm always about to pass out whenever I get on this forum for some reason.. hah.  Sorry, no drawings yet, but here's the evolution of the pinball idea:

At first I was thinking about the standard 4player design, except with a section jutting out of the middle where the pinball buttons would go.

--------------------------
\------------------------/
 \----------------------/
  \--------------------/
        |-----------|

sorta like that.  the pinball buttons would be on the sides of the rectangle jutting out of the front.  I decided that this wouldn't really look that good and would be an ergonomic nightmare... so back to the drawing board.  I'm playing with the idea of having a pull out drawer type thing  that would lock into place somehow (still researching various bits of cabinet hardware for a ready made solution to this) and have the buttons on that.  That way, you could have a section that pulled out far enough to feel right as an arcade experience, yet would easily slide out of the way for normal gaming goodness.

[danny_galaga]

Here is a link for MIT's class on Philosophy of Quantum Mechanics.  You can see the lecture notes from when this class was taught in 2002.  You can still get the gist of what they are saying.  Man, I would love to take a class like this.  Totally Mindblowing!!

http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Linguistics-and-Philosophy/24-111Philosophy-of-Quantum-MechanicsSpring2002/CourseHome/index.htm

I guess I should have been a little more clear earlier.  I think the Copenhagen Interpretaiton is the best model we have, to an extent.  But, isn't that what most people think, and it's only how far we take it that we disagree on.  For example:

When the scientist opens the box and finds the live cat, the state of the dead cat collapses.  But then the scientist has a massive heart attack and dies instantly.  Does the wave function re-establish, and the laboratory become the new box, waiting for the lab assistant to open the door to discover the true state of the cat?

its a rather figurative thought experiment. i think it was just to give an image of how it works. i dont believe it should be drawn into a philosophical image. the act of 'observing' an atom for instance doesn't neccessarily mean someone is staring at it. the probability function would collapse from say, a photon hitting it whether or not it ever had anything to do with a humans eye.
 so the tree still falls, and the cat dies or not regardless of whether we are around or not. we aren't gods after all...
(well, i am but that's a different story   )

[Jedimonkey27]

http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/science/6dff/
I love this website.

[BobbyG66]

Here is what I have been designing.

Players 3 and 4 are stepped down to the sides of the main CP.
This allows room for the pinball buttons to fit on the side.

The cab is made up of two parts. The front cab holds up the CP and contains the PC, etc.
The back cab holds the monitor and marquee.
Then are then bolted together.
They can be taken apart to move up stairs, etc.

Hope this helps with the brainstorming.
Bob

[Nephus]

well, if you've got the cash to afford it... if you're going to have the back cab with only the screen in it, why not go for something larger with the CP a few feet away from it... I don't know what to call that style of cab, but I've seen it for a few fighting games.  It's an interesting concept, and one that I haven't entertained yet.  Props for the creativity  

[BobbyG66]

well, if you've got the cash to afford it... if you're going to have the back cab with only the screen in it, why not go for something larger with the CP a few feet away from it... I don't know what to call that style of cab, but I've seen it for a few fighting games.  It's an interesting concept, and one that I haven't entertained yet.  Props for the creativity  

It's called a "Showcase cab" and Hulkster built one here:
http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=16166;start=80

I like that design, but I still want to keep it as small as possible, it's still going to be big, but not much bigger than other four player panels.
I just don't like the way the big four player panels are mounted on narrow bases.
Kinda like this:

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                           |____________ |

     

[Nephus]

so umm.. anyone in KY have a dead cab laying around?    my search has not gone well...

[Nephus]

Well, since tracking down an actual arcade cab has been cost prohibitive... and I don't really have the time to cut out my own at the moment... I've decided to do something a little different.

Basically I'm going to start out with a 2 player CP, but I'm going to throw a mini-itx board, hard drive, CD-Rom, etc. inside the CP.  Basically I'm going to make a completely portable mame system that only requires a TV or a monitor to play on.  Eventually I'll be able to make a cab from scratch, and the CP will just drop in.  I'll probably keep it as a removeable unit, just to be different.


Of course, since I'm announcing this with the sad hope that it's a completely original idea, I imagine it's been done before... so if anyone could post some links so I could get ideas for easy work-arounds to issues I might encounter... I'd be thankful.

[allroy1975]

so umm.. anyone in KY have a dead cab laying around?    my search has not gone well...

I have a cab in my garage...but I'm afraid to open the garage door to find out weather the cab is dead or alive.

this thread made my head hurt.  

Allroy