Run Mame using dos from CD-ROM (NO HD Installed)?

[JLR2000]

Has anyone done this?  I have some older machines I'm thinking about building dedicated small cabaret style cabs for like pac-man, dig-dug, galaga, etc.  I was thinking of having it all run dos mame, and since it would only have 1 or maybe 2 roms, I thought I could run this from CD.  Maybe even have a floppy installed so that hi scores could be kept.  Anyway, I have a Pole Position cab running dos mame and just pole position all on a small 250 meg HD (which is mostly empty).  Since CDs are literally pennies, I thought maybe just use the cd for the OS and mame.   Any thoughts, gotchas, or don't forgets?

Thanks.

[SirPeale]

Well, first, the motherboard has to support booting from the CD.

Other than that, should be a piece of cake, assuming you know how to roll your own bootable CD.

[SirPoonga]

You could just do the fraggal boot cd or AdvanceCD or other boot disk mames.

http://mame.how.to/
http://advancemame.sourceforge.net/cd-readme.html
http://freshmeat.net/projects/knoppixmame/
http://www.omnicade.com/

[JLR2000]

Thanks for the info, I checked out AdvanceCD,  tried a "quick" test and it failed.  I know nothing about Linux so decided that a simple DOS cd would be easier.  I've never made a bootable CD, do you have any recommended links on the subject?  I'll google later on it, but if you have any to share I'd appreciate it.

Also, I'm looking to have it boot from CD, to DOS, to the game directly.  No FE needed.  I'll look at some of the other CD links you sent as well.
Thanks.

[GadgetGeek]

You kinda lost me...why not just run it off the HD on the computer?  If you want it dedicated, just put mame -centipede (or whatever) in your autoexec.bat file.

[JLR2000]

You kinda lost me...why not just run it off the HD on the computer?  If you want it dedicated, just put mame -centipede (or whatever) in your autoexec.bat file.

Because I don't want to waste a 3gig or larger HD for a dedicated machine when a 650mg cd will hold all the files I need.  I'd rather move the hard drives I have to machines that can utilize the space.  I also have a couple machines without Hard drives, so this would make them usuable without buying more hardware.

[SirPeale]

And you can swap out games just by popping out the discs.

[SirPoonga]

Thanks for the info, I checked out AdvanceCD,  tried a "quick" test and it failed.  I know nothing about Linux so decided that a simple DOS cd would be easier.  I've never made a bootable CD, do you have any recommended links on the subject?  I'll google later on it, but if you have any to share I'd appreciate it.

Also, I'm looking to have it boot from CD, to DOS, to the game directly.  No FE needed.  I'll look at some of the other CD links you sent as well.
Thanks.

AdvanceCD is picky, it boots on one of my PCs but not the other.  I heard knoppixMAME is good.  That omnicade is dos.  Lots of possibilties.

I think cd burning software can make something bootable?  At least I believe Nero can.

anyway, if all you want is to not have the roms take up space on your HD just burn the roms to disc.  Boot to the HD, setup mame on there to look for roms on the CD.  You could keep a few popular roms on HD too.  I'd want HD available to store settings and such.

[tep0583]

You can absolutely make a bootable CD using Nero. The trick is to get a bootable floppy that does the basic boot stuff (loads drivers, memory management, frontend, ect.) Obviously, most frontends wouldn't fit on a floppy and MAME most cirtanly won't, so you'll have to point the autoexec.bat at the hardrive to test the bootfloppy. If your software is all on the C: drive , you should just have to get it working from floppy and you'll be golden, as the CD drive should become C: when you're booting without a hard drive installed.

Once you have the floppy created and tested, start Nero and select New > CD (bootable). Nero should ask for the disk you want to use to setup the bootfiles on the CD. INsert your boot floppy and it will read the required data. You then just have to add the mame folder and the folder for your fronend and you should be set to burn the CD.

You might have to 'tweek' your settings a little and may use a few disks getting eveything to work right, but it should work. The bootable CD setup may be slightly different than I described, I'm going from memory. Other CD burning software should have compatable optiions, but I'd advise using Nero if its at all possible. Its never let me down and is fairly easy and intuitive to use.

[JLR2000]

Ok, I was able to build a crude DOS booting CD that directly loads pacman....(without sound, but it's a start).  

I'd like to be able to keep HiScores, I thought by locating the hiscores.dat file on the A: drive, but as I read more I think it has to be where the Mame executable is, and that's on the cd-r, so no writing there.  Anyone know if hiscore.dat absolutely has to be located where the  mame.exe is located?  Why have the HI parameter in the mame.cfg if it can't be anywhere?  

Also, my bootcd believe's it's the A: drive.  I'm using nero to create it.  Can I make the boot drive C: and still use the floppy drive?  Sorry if these are dumb questions, just stumbling around here thinking and trying different things....

Thanks.

[Lilwolf]

Why would a 1gig drive be a waste?

For the extra boot speed I think its worth it.  Especially since they are basically free.

If you live in the Cinci OH area... I have an extra 5gig (might be 4) you can have.  

(anyway, it will save you time)

[wboy]

Also, my bootcd believe's it's the A: drive.  I'm using nero to create it.  Can I make the boot drive C: and still use the floppy drive?  Sorry if these are dumb questions, just stumbling around here thinking and trying different things....

while I haven't googled to confirm, off the top of my head I am not sure if you can do much to get around this as the bootcd function is effectively floppy emulation.... unless of course you can  tinker in you BIOS to make the floppy B: ?

I've been considering a similar cd boot disk idea myself.... more just for proof on concept more than anything....  plan to use dos, which loads CD drivers to read the additional content on the CD... the create a DOS RAM drive using a TSR that exists on the net (easy to find thru google)... to then copy the contents from the CD to the ramdrive and execute mame from within... allowing you to effectively eject the CD (not necessary) and work entirely from you PCs ram.

I might have a play around soon to get it happening... have all the tools to put such a thing together at my disposal.. and I know it should work.... just a matter of killing a few hours and a few cds to prove it can work.

[tep0583]

Also, my bootcd believe's it's the A: drive.  I'm using nero to create it.  Can I make the boot drive C: and still use the floppy drive?  Sorry if these are dumb questions, just stumbling around here thinking and trying different things....

Thanks.

Crap! That's a good question! I never, ever thought of that. I'll play around with it a little to see what I can find, although I'm not too sure there's a way in Nero to change this. It might be a BIOS function.

[JLR2000]

Why would a 1gig drive be a waste?

For the extra boot speed I think its worth it.  Especially since they are basically free.

If you live in the Cinci OH area... I have an extra 5gig (might be 4) you can have.  

(anyway, it will save you time)

Thanks for the reply and offer.  I'm just thinking why buy a harddrive if what I need fits on a cd-r? In terms of boot speed, this loads pretty quick, and it's not something that requires constant reboots. If it's a dedicated cab, you want it to just load the game and run.  Plus the classic games are tiny, so they load fast.  
I have to say that a lot of this is "just to see if it can be done".  To be honest, if it becomes too much of a pain, I'll just use the smaller harddrives.  So far the CD will boot right into the game I setup in the autoexec.bat.  Haven't played with soundcard drivers yet.  

BTW, where can you buy 1 gb drives? and for how much? Can't be USB or Pen drives, this is running in DOS......

[wboy]

More modern motherboards support the ability to boot of a USB Pen/Stick/Drive device, and while I haven't done it myself yet, I'm pretty damn certain you can use them to boot a DOS OS and see it as a drive letter.  I believe the bios/motherboard handles the communication with the device in the non-usb supported dos world after being detected as a boot device...

[JLR2000]

I don't think the old PII 233s that I own have that ability.  I did see there are some sites with how-tos to boot from usb devices, but I don't see those devices being cheaper than a cd-r.  

[Howard_Casto]

Of course you do knw that if you boot from a cd and find out one of your settings is slightly off you are screwed.  Also you can't save high-scores, save games (which i actually don't care for but some people do)  and any ohter nonsense that requires saving to a file.  


If you only need a 650 mb drive then why not just use one?  You can pick one up for free if you ask around businesses and local computer stores and they are on ebay all the time.  

[JLR2000]

Of course you do knw that if you boot from a cd and find out one of your settings is slightly off you are screwed.  Also you can't save high-scores, save games (which i actually don't care for but some people do)  and any ohter nonsense that requires saving to a file.  


If you only need a 650 mb drive then why not just use one?  You can pick one up for free if you ask around businesses and local computer stores and they are on ebay all the time.  

Yeah, that's what I addressed earlier in this thread, regarding saving games.  Was thinking of running from CD and having hiscore.dat on a floppy to say, but booting from CD makes the system think the CD is A:.  Again, I was just looking to use a cheap resource (CD-Rs) in place of hard drives.  They are cheap and plentiful.  Going around looking for drives or ebaying (shipping will be $10 most of the time) just doesnt' make sense.  I agree about the config file, but once you get it set, it doesn't change, so that's not really an issue.  The only issue I  saw was using a floppy for keeping hiscores.  I think MAME has a requirement that the hiscores.dat file MUST be in the same directory as MAME.  If that wasn't the case, I could look into changing the floppy drive to B: and booting from cd-rom A:, pointing to the hiscore.dat file on the floppy B: drive .  

[SirPeale]

This should only be a problem if you want to save your high scores.  Is it *that* big of a deal?

There are different methods of booting from a CD.  Floppy emulation is just one of them.

Oh, what *does* your floppy come out as?  B?

[JLR2000]

This should only be a problem if you want to save your high scores.  Is it *that* big of a deal?

There are different methods of booting from a CD.  Floppy emulation is just one of them.

Oh, what *does* your floppy come out as?  B?

No, not really a big deal, but it would be nice if this is for a stand alone machine that it emulates what a real machine does (keeps scores after power off). Yes, the floppy is the B: drive.  Unfortunately, hiscore.dat only seems to work if it's in the same directory with the dmame.exe.

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah, that's what I addressed earlier in this thread, regarding saving games.  Was thinking of running from CD and having hiscore.dat on a floppy to say, but booting from CD makes the system think the CD is A:.  Again, I was just looking to use a cheap resource (CD-Rs) in place of hard drives.  They are cheap and plentiful.  Going around looking for drives or ebaying (shipping will be $10 most of the time) just doesnt' make sense.  

So pay 5 bucks for a drive and 10 bucks shipping.... that's 15 bucks.  The cheapest cdrom drive your going to get that'll read cheap cdrs well, will be 25 bucks plus shipping. If you get it at a local computer store they will mark up the price so you might as well call it the same difference.  

About the floppy issue.  Mame writes to the highscore dat often, and most games actually use the cfg files and nvram files to save scores.  So a floppy is gonna be dead in no time if you write to it that much anyway.  They are cheap of course, but once the disk is so corrupted that you can't copy the highscores off of it you've defeated your purpose anyway.  

[JLR2000]

Yeah, that's what I addressed earlier in this thread, regarding saving games.  Was thinking of running from CD and having hiscore.dat on a floppy to say, but booting from CD makes the system think the CD is A:.  Again, I was just looking to use a cheap resource (CD-Rs) in place of hard drives.  They are cheap and plentiful.  Going around looking for drives or ebaying (shipping will be $10 most of the time) just doesnt' make sense.  

So pay 5 bucks for a drive and 10 bucks shipping.... that's 15 bucks.  The cheapest cdrom drive your going to get that'll read cheap cdrs well, will be 25 bucks plus shipping. If you get it at a local computer store they will mark up the price so you might as well call it the same difference.  

About the floppy issue.  Mame writes to the highscore dat often, and most games actually use the cfg files and nvram files to save scores.  So a floppy is gonna be dead in no time if you write to it that much anyway.  They are cheap of course, but once the disk is so corrupted that you can't copy the highscores off of it you've defeated your purpose anyway.  

Well HC, I have to say that I took your advice and looked on ebay. Now, I guess I should have been clearer in explaining that I had systems complete with cd-roms, floppy drives, but no Hard Disks.   A quick search turned up small (540mg) hard drives for pretty cheap with a buy it now.  Since some of the issues above are not easily circumvented, my time is worth more than the cost of the drives. Really, cost was only one factor...part of it was to see if it could be done. I have a bootable cd that boots right into pac man (no sound).   The learning experience was worth the investigation, but I'll concede at this point that the cheap hard drive is the better solution.  Thanks all for the input.  Anyone know where I can pickup some extra "time" to work on a new project?  It's the only thing I'm missing now.....

[fogman]

Why not boot use a dos boot from a floppy that loads the ATAPI drivers for the CD, then (I think) the CD will be drive C.  If you leave only the required files on the floppy, you should still have plenty of room to keep your hi-scores on it.  

This would be a pretty good idea for a dedicated "small rom" machine, in that you could get an old motherboard with a pretty slow CPU for free.  The entire computer system should cost about $25, if you need to get a new floppy drive and CD-Rom, or free as most people could probably scrounge up the parts.  It would use almost no power and need only PSU cooling, so it would be quiet.

I think its a good idea...are you

[SirPeale]

That idea puts a lot of strain on a slow floppy.

The good news is that you *can* put your hiscore on a floppy.

history_file                 a:\history.dat
hiscore_directory       a:\

That's from mame.ini.  Just make those changes, and it will save your hi score to floppy.

Edit: this, of course, assumes that your CD drive is not running as a:

[fogman]

I just meant to put the fewest DOS files necessary to boot the computer and load the CD-Rom drivers.  The floppy would only be accessed during boot and hi-score saves.  All of the other files would be on the CD.

[SirPeale]

I just meant to put the fewest DOS files necessary to boot the computer and load the CD-Rom drivers.  The floppy would only be accessed during boot and hi-score saves.  All of the other files would be on the CD.

Yeah, I get that.  What I'm saying is that floppies have an extremely short lifespan.  Every boot would put wear and tear on it.  Might be able to boot, *maybe* 75 times before it really started to wear.

[GadgetGeek]

What if HiScores is stored on a small ram disk and copied to floppy at shutdown and from floppy at boot.  Still boot from CD and the continuous writing to the floppy is at a minimum.  If the computer gets shut down cold, all that is lost is any hi-scores from that session.
Just a thought.

[fogman]

I don't know about the short lifespan thing.  I have floppies that are 15 years old that still boot just fine.  We used to use them as keys at one time to run programs, and they got alot more than 75 boots.  They are also the easiest things to back up since DOS handles disk to disk copy in the same drive.  I hear what you're saying though...a cheap small hard drive is still probably the way to go.

[JLR2000]

That idea puts a lot of strain on a slow floppy.

The good news is that you *can* put your hiscore on a floppy.

history_file                 a:\history.dat
hiscore_directory       a:\

That's from mame.ini.  Just make those changes, and it will save your hi score to floppy.

Edit: this, of course, assumes that your CD drive is not running as a:

Peal- did you test this and see it work?  I did a quick and dirty test and it didn't work.  Just wondering if it "should" work, or you have seen it work?

[SirPeale]

This is one of those things that 'should' work.  Try making a dir on the floppy called 'hi' and stating it like:

hiscore_directory      a:\hi

Not sure if you need a trailing slash or not.


Edit: I just tried this myself, and sure enough, it doesn't work.  Not sure why that is.  Oh, perhaps you need to be saving the nvram files to floppy as well?

[JLR2000]

This is one of those things that 'should' work.  Try making a dir on the floppy called 'hi' and stating it like:

hiscore_directory      a:\hi

Not sure if you need a trailing slash or not.


Edit: I just tried this myself, and sure enough, it doesn't work.  Not sure why that is.  Oh, perhaps you need to be saving the nvram files to floppy as well?

Per the MAME site:
"HISCORE.DAT contains highscore saving and loading information for games that didn't actually have highscore saving and loading in the arcades. To use it, simply unzip the file and put HISCORE.DAT into the same directory with MAME."
http://www.mame.net/hiscore.html
I guess there is a requirement to be in the same directory as the .exe

[SirPeale]

All the hiscore.dat file does it tell Mame where the hiscore info is in each set.  The scores are saved elsewhere.

[JLR2000]

All the hiscore.dat file does it tell Mame where the hiscore info is in each set.  The scores are saved elsewhere.

Really!  I didn't know that.  Hmmm, so anyone know where the scores are actually written to?  That's what would need to be on floppy.....

[Spaced Invader]

I was thinking of something similar...Vantage from a floppy (would be left on most of the time so floppy life not much of an issue. Vantage doesn't log highscores though...or does it...Peale...anybody?

JLR2000 Sorry about the hijack...thought it might be another way for you to go...if Vantage can save highsores...

[SirPeale]

I was thinking of something similar...Vantage from a floppy (would be left on most of the time so floppy life not much of an issue. Vantage doesn't log highscores though...or does it...Peale...anybody?

I don't believe it does, no.  lokki?

[slycrel]

  Just an idea, if you use a linux boot CD, you could use a symbolic link.  (For those who don't know, a symbolic link can function similarly to a shortcut in windows, except that it's treated as if the file were in two places at once -- so if you write to a symbolic link, the data is redirected to the linked location.  You can also create flies that are truly linked, when one gets changed so does the other.  Anyway.)  You could make it point to a different file on the floppy drive.  If you set it up correctly on the CD, the scores would be written to the floppy instead of the CDR automagically.  Might be a bit tricky, but I think it could be done by someon with more linux experience than I have.  

[GMZombie]

yea what about what gadgetgeek said. if you could put mame and hiscoredat on a ramdisk and have it copyed onto your floppy drive before shutdown like programmed in autoexec or sumthing?

[KHAN]

just sell ur cd rom and buy a cheap hard disk....
it will be more easy to configure......

cd-rom will not run a cd for a long time and also itself run...
a lower space fixed disk will be better.....

[dabone]

For HI Score saving if you motherboard is new enough one of these usb drives will show up under dos.

TigerDirect Link


4.99 + shipping for 16mb of storage.

Some motherboards support booting off these drives.
You could fit dos, Vantage and some roms on here and have no need for a cdrom.

I picked up a cf to flash adapter with a 256 meg card and set it up with dos and vantage before.. No heat, no sounds, and fast boot times.

I just wish gamelauncher support -ror instead of -rol and then I'd be a happy boy.


Later,
dabone

[GMZombie]

lol i have a bunch of hard drives i dont need to buy one...now this is more of a i can do that instead of a whatif for me. this is a side project for me anyways i have my other mamae machine running. i just wanted to see how this would work and it got me thinking the hiscore.dat needs to be in the same place as mame exe but the folder hi is where all the hi scores go....im verifying this as we speak but al lyou would have to do is change the hi score folder to a:/ or b:/ hi and it should work. i know hd's work better and this is more of a i wanna do it not because i dont want to put a drive in just to fiugre this out

[GMZombie]

ok i have just verified what i thought all along. if you have the hiscore.dat with the mame exe but in the config change the place of the hi folder to a:\hi you can have it save to the disk. someone eariler mentioned this and i would like to say that this indeed works. Now im gonna make a boot cd that has advmame on it as well as arcadeos as i cannot get advmenu to work properly dunno why. anyways my arcadeos will give me the different version of galaga so i can still play the game. yay...if anybody is interested or dosent understand i will be glad to help.

[lokki]

I was thinking of something similar...Vantage from a floppy (would be left on most of the time so floppy life not much of an issue. Vantage doesn't log highscores though...or does it...Peale...anybody?

I don't believe it does, no.  lokki?

Nope...... Not sure what it would take to implement... Most games are different (therefore the need for highscore.dat)