Why is a CRT still recommended when there is HLSL?

[Rockstead]

When I dig through forum posts, I see HLSL mentioned so much more a few years ago compared to now, people seemed to be excited about it and how good things could look.

If HLSL is able to emulate a CRT, then why are LCD/Plasma still looked upon negatively? Is it solely based on the correct aspect ration and people not liking things stretched or black bars on 16x9 panels?

Is it because HLSL requires a good video card? I'm not actually certain what the requirements are or what type of panel is best to get the most out of it.

Is HLSL on by default or does it still have to be enabled and tweaked?

[pbj]

Because Paige has a pile of CRTs in his basement. 

[harveybirdman]

Mostly because people don't bother with a PC powerful enough to run it half the newbies here want to use the ---smurfing--- Pi. 

They have no appreciation for elegant design, custom artwork, nor the desire to build anything remotely resembling what was in the Arcade BITD.

I think that, more than disdain specifically for LED/LCD displays, is the prevailing attitude you're picking up on.

I've seen flatscreens used beautifully, if that's the choice one makes and assuming they go with a complimentary design such as a Viewlix then I got no problem with that.

[vwalbridge]

If HLSL is able to emulate a CRT, then why are LCD/Plasma still looked upon negatively?

I wouldn't say negatively per say. However, a custom build that uses a real CRT is just more authentic and true to original form.

Is it solely based on the correct aspect ration and people not liking things stretched or black bars on 16x9 panels?

No, it's not solely based on this at all. You can achieve the correct aspect ratio on any LCD. Retroarch is really good for this.

Is it because HLSL requires a good video card? I'm not actually certain what the requirements are or what type of panel is best to get the most out of it.

Yes. Really good HLSL settings require a discrete card. However, I've been able to achieve pretty good settings on the Integrated Intel HD graphics.

Is HLSL on by default or does it still have to be enabled and tweaked?

It needs to be enabled. And Mame's default HLSL settings are abysmal. It should even be tweaked per-game, if you ask me.

In a nutshell, hipster millennials just want to play Galaga and don't care it it looks authentic.

[m.andrade1]

Hello Rockstead
The original PCB hardware was design to work with a CRT on the final end, no mathers tons of filters they invent never will match the beaulty of the CRT.

[pbj]

In a nutshell, all anyone wants to play ever is Galaga and I've been in this hobby 15 years.

[markc74]

In a nutshell, all anyone wants to play ever is Galaga and I've been in this hobby 15 years.

Frogger kicks Galaga's ass. Stop.

[8BitMonk]

All key points were touched on, just wanted to add one more thing. If you do go the non-CRT route remember HLSL isn't your only option. There's the CRT Geom shader which is less GPU intensive and then the OpenGL CRT Lottes shader which imo looks better than HLSL.

One of the easiest ways to experiment with the various shaders to see how they look is MameUIFX. The shaders are included, you can turn them on in the menus instead of changing Mame's .ini file and the default settings are decent.

[Rockstead]

All key points were touched on, just wanted to add one more thing. If you do go the non-CRT route remember HLSL isn't your only option. There's the CRT Geom shader which is less GPU intensive and then the OpenGL CRT Lottes shader which imo looks better than HLSL.

One of the easiest ways to experiment with the various shaders to see how they look is MameUIFX. The shaders are included, you can turn them on in the menus instead of changing Mame's .ini file and the default settings are decent.

I actually have a GTX 770 collecting dust that I planned on using for the pc part of the build, what would be the best option given that?

[8BitMonk]

I actually have a GT 770 collecting dust that I planned on using for the pc part of the build, what would be the best option given that?

That's a decent card, speed shouldn't be an issue so you can rule out CRT Geom which is for low end cards. Between HLSL and the OpenGL Lottes shader it's somewhat subjective. I'd download MameUIFX and try both to see how they look and perform on your system and monitor.

[big10p]

HLSL does a good job of approximating the traits of a CRT, but you'll never be able to exactly capture the look of one on any kind of LCD display, IMO. LCDs just can't get near the brightness of a CRT. You may think you've nailed it with HLSL, until you compare to an actual CRT. Then you realize it's still a mile off.

[Malenko]

When you get old like me picking up an LCD is much easier. I don't even need shaders and HLSL effects, I'm content with a simple SLG. "close enough!"

[vwalbridge]

When you get old like me picking up an LCD is much easier.

What are you talkin' about!? I played a video game where you were the character carrying an ENTIRE machine to a convention.

[8BitMonk]

HLSL does a good job of approximating the traits of a CRT, but you'll never be able to exactly capture the look of one on any kind of LCD display, IMO. LCDs just can't get near the brightness of a CRT. You may think you've nailed it with HLSL, until you compare to an actual CRT. Then you realize it's still a mile off.

I prefer CRT's as well but the screen effects have come a long way recently and continue to advance so never say never. Playing devils advocate here I'd say a lot of CRT purists also crap all over HLSL and LCD's without having ever seen the various shaders working. I've experimented with the Lottes shader on a hires LCD and it's not 'a mile off' anymore, maybe a quarter mile. They both have their place, not every build or budget can accommodate a CRT and an LCD with those affects, while a concession, is still a nice approximation. 

[Malenko]

When you get old like me picking up an LCD is much easier.

What are you talkin' about!? I played a video game where you were the character carrying an ENTIRE machine to a convention.

Where is the like button again?

[Titchgamer]

I used to have a CRT in my machine until it beggared up.
Then I swapped it for a 4:3 LCD and it works just fine.

I can play the games I like and they are enjoyable.

Lets be realistic here who the hell plays a game and says to themselfs "yeah those curved screen edges and scan lines really make this game fun!"

Oh yeah nobody!

Ime all for Authenticity and nostalgia dont get me wrong.
If you are restoring a original machine then you want to use original parts to keep it authentic but for a Multi Cade there is nothing wrong with a LCD and it does not break my damn back moving it around!!

[8BitMonk]

I can play the games I like and they are enjoyable.

Lets be realistic here who the hell plays a game and says to themselfs "yeah those curved screen edges and scan lines really make this game fun!"

Oh yeah nobody!

'Enjoyable' to me is highly dependent on the visuals. I have definitely looked at an LCD without any screen affect applied and thought this looks like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, making it less enjoyable to play. LCD's are fine, they have their place, but the best overall experience for classic arcade games is still a CRT.

[brad808]

LCDs have their place with high definition games and CRTs have their place with low definition games. My experience is it's hard to cross the two and be completely happy

I have a few candy cabinets running really nice recapped CRT monitors and I've never been able to get close to that look on an LCD while playing 15khz or 24khz games. I have a vewlix cab I play type x games on and I also have mame loaded onto it in case I want to fire up an older game while I only have that cab turned on.

I'd be curious to see some of the settings people are using on their LCD systems. Everytime I see settings posted online and try them they look like complete garbage. Everytime I try to mess with them myself they look like garbage. So where are all the filters and settings LCD owners are all raving about that look just like a CRT?

I ask this not to be a dick but because I'd genuinely like to run them on my LCD cab. I have the horsepower and willingness to use filters but they need to meet a pretty high standard since my room is filled with CRT monitors. I'll admit I'm skeptical since I've never seen anything that comes close to matching or even being passable. So far it's only been glaringly obvious that they are effects doing a poor job at mimicking the look of a CRT.

[8BitMonk]

I'd be curious to see some of the settings people are using on their LCD systems. Everytime I see settings posted online and try them they look like complete garbage. Everytime I try to mess with them myself they look like garbage. So where are all the filters and settings LCD owners are all raving about that look just like a CRT?

Like I mentioned, the best starting point is mameuifx. It has the Lottes shader included in the download and the default settings are good. All you have to do is download it, go in into it's menu, point the default directories to your roms and then under the monitor options in the menu turn on HLSL or OGL with the Lottes shader and launch your game. No messing with the .ini file or settings at all. It should take you 30 minutes tops. Note with OGL and the Lottes shader there is a different one for vertical vs. horizontal games, if you swap one with the other it'll look like ass.

[elvis]

One argument for the CRT camp is some games have odd vertical refresh rates.  With LCD screens you're going to be adding buffering and vsync to fix that, and it's going to change timings ever so slightly.

I fully admit it's a super pedantic reason.  But it's a reason all the same.

Honestly, this whole hobby is ultimately about pedantry.  Real boards versus emulators, CRTs versus LCD+effects, clone cabinets versus restores of originals, etc, etc.

Do whatever makes you happy, man.  I like poking about inside heavy, high voltage CRTs for the thrills.  If you don't, that's cool too.  Play the games, have some fun.

[big10p]

Do whatever makes you happy, man.  I like poking about inside heavy, high voltage CRTs for the thrills.  If you don't, that's cool too.  Play the games, have some fun.

That just about sums it up for me. 

[brad808]

I'd be curious to see some of the settings people are using on their LCD systems. Everytime I see settings posted online and try them they look like complete garbage. Everytime I try to mess with them myself they look like garbage. So where are all the filters and settings LCD owners are all raving about that look just like a CRT?

Like I mentioned, the best starting point is mameuifx. It has the Lottes shader included in the download and the default settings are good. All you have to do is download it, go in into it's menu, point the default directories to your roms and then under the monitor options in the menu turn on HLSL or OGL with the Lottes shader and launch your game. No messing with the .ini file or settings at all. It should take you 30 minutes tops. Note with OGL and the Lottes shader there is a different one for vertical vs. horizontal games, if you swap one with the other it'll look like ass.

Well I've tried it out last night and unfortunately I'm stuck as a CRT "purist". It simply doesn't cut it for me. I won't say it looks terrible because it looks much better than anything I've been able to create myself but it certainly doesn't look like a CRT monitor. It looks more like an LCD with a grid overlay. I'm completely fine with people just wanting to play games, taking the path of least resistance with an LCD and having fun. I'm not fine with people thinking that they have something comparable to what a properly set up CRT looks like. At least not with anything I've seen yet. Maybe I'll try again in another couple years.

For now I'll likely leave the lottes shader on my vewlix cab and see if I can get it or something similar running on groovymame. It's just easier keeping my mame versions consistent between cabs vs having a bunch of specific versions with separate backups.

[Titchgamer]

Do whatever makes you happy, man.  I like poking about inside heavy, high voltage CRTs for the thrills.  If you don't, that's cool too.  Play the games, have some fun.

That just about sums it up for me. 

If you get thrills from High Voltages do what I did and become an Electrician!

I must say though getting a HV shock would be pretty far from Thrilling!!

[Slippyblade]

I must say though getting a HV shock would be pretty far from Thrilling!!

I don't know - it certainly gets the heart rate up!  or stops it.  YMMV.

[8BitMonk]

Do whatever makes you happy, man.  I like poking about inside heavy, high voltage CRTs for the thrills.  If you don't, that's cool too.  Play the games, have some fun.

^^ Agreed.

Well I've tried it out last night and unfortunately I'm stuck as a CRT "purist". It simply doesn't cut it for me. I won't say it looks terrible because it looks much better than anything I've been able to create myself but it certainly doesn't look like a CRT monitor.

Glad you checked it out, I think everyone should look at both to get a good frame of reference. It's definitely not a CRT replication, just the best current approximation. Not optimal for playing the classics but for any build where you're limited to a flatscreen the shaders are a great addition. I prefer the CRT_Lottes to HLSL and any hardware scan line generator I've tried but admittedly it's all subjective.

Good --> Mame to LCD  Better --> Mame to LCD + shader  Best --> Mame to CRT

[Titchgamer]

HV will stop it and turn you black n crispy lol

[opt2not]

Age-old argument. Do a search on this topic and you'll see multiple of threads and debates about this throughout the history of this forum.
Why not have another.

Here are my top 3 reasons I pick CRT over LCD:
1. Rose-coloured glasses - nostalgia is the driving force of this hobby, having things run on an original display the way it was intended to appeals to me. But I grew up in the arcades, so my background may be different from some members here that never got to experience the good ol' days.

2. Lagless gameplay - LCD's will never equal the response rate of an CRT. Even today, if you were to go to any fighting game tournament you'll see the Smash Bros crowd lugging around their old CRT's, bless their little souls. It's because LCD lag is a real thing, and for most arcade games those milliseconds of response could be the difference between a high-score and kickin' rocks.

3. Longevity - if you invest the time to learn how to fix and maintain a CRT, you can keep them alive for multiple decades. Sure you could probably replace your LCD with a new one, trashing the old, but why spend hundreds of dollars every few years when you can spend a few dollars and a bit of soldering time on replacement components.

Top 3 reasons I'd go for an LCD over CRT:
1. Present games - Ability to play the newer games on a display format it was intended to. Fighting games being foremost on the list, but there are retro-remakes and indie titles that are built with that widescreen format in mind.

2. Space - obviously for those smaller form projects and those who are lacking in the square-footage dept.

3. Heat generation - LCD's run cooler than CRT's. Full stop.

In any case, I still lean towards CRT's...for now. But situations may change later on, and my thinking is as long as I can still keep my CRT's alive and well I'll stick to 'em.
Lately though, space is a concern and may force me to put my CRT cabinets into storage and resort to LCD gamin'.

Bottom line is, YMMV. Do you, who cares what others think. If you wanna go with an LCD, do that. As long as you like it, are having fun with your project, who cares what a bunch of cranky old strangers on the internet think.

Now get off my lawn.
 

[behrmr]

HV will stop it and turn you black n crispy lol

Nah. It's not that bad. When I run out of coffee I just fire up an arcade game and touch my tongue to yoke wires.

[Titchgamer]

HV will stop it and turn you black n crispy lol

Nah. It's not that bad. When I run out of coffee I just fire up an arcade game and touch my tongue to yoke wires.

Trust me real shocks dont tickle.
And Ive only been unfortunate enough to get  LV ones lol

HV is 1000V plus.

[Malenko]

Amperage kills you, not voltage.

[behrmr]

Yes.  I have been nailed by HV from a monitor. I know what it feels and smells like.

[vwalbridge]

Amperage kills you, not voltage.

Beat me to it. 

[Titchgamer]

Amperage kills you, not voltage.

To true.
Anything upwards of 30mA can kill you off if you have a weak heart etc.

But I guess I have a different way of looking at things to most of you.

The caps etc in a CRT wont tickle but not that likely to kill you unless you are unlucky.

But a HV cable carrying 11KV will turn you to dust.

Bit of a difference

[brad808]

To those that don't understand, yes he is a "comedian". The information is still solid.

[Titchgamer]

To those that don't understand, yes he is a "comedian". The information is still solid.

Seen that before, made me chuckle then to haha

[keilmillerjr]

I sold my 43" toshiba lcd that was used for watching movies and now have a freebie 27" trinitron crt. I can see the screen perfectly from any angle. Hooray for cooking in the kitchen and not missing my movie. And I can buy vhs tapes for 10 or 5 cents in my area.

People are so hung up on slim form that they forget some of the benifits of other technology. Im glad i scrapped my custom cabinet with lcd project and bought a neo geo mvs with 25" crt. It looks fantastic.

Hlsl doesnt apply to every app, boot screen, etc. And you cant simulate a better viewing angle.

[rock145]

Looking around for good HLSL settings for mame, I found these and are very good. One of the best I've seem.  http://forums.launchbox-app.com/topic/30097-mame-glsl-vs-hlsl/

[Titchgamer]

Just out of interest on a slightly related subject lol

Does anyone use vga scanline generators on their LCD's?

[vwalbridge]

Just out of interest on a slightly related subject lol

Does anyone use vga scanline generators on their LCD's?

Malenko does...See post #11:

When you get old like me picking up an LCD is much easier. I don't even need shaders and HLSL effects, I'm content with a simple SLG. "close enough!"

[elvis]

If you get thrills from High Voltages do what I did and become an Electrician!

I must say though getting a HV shock would be pretty far from Thrilling!!

I get paid far too well to change careers this late in the game.  I'll stick to fixing up CRTs as a hobby.

Just out of interest on a slightly related subject lol

Does anyone use vga scanline generators on their LCD's?

I've seen a few people use them.  I've even seen people fix older genuine arcade machine display problems by using CGA->VGA upscalers with a scanline generator thrown in there, displaying out to an LCD screen.  Worked well enough to give the illusion required for most people, but for anyone with more than a casual interest in arcades it stood out.

Again, see my comments above.  It's all about the pedantry.  This quote was interesting:

Mostly because people don't bother with a PC powerful enough to run it half the newbies here want to use the ---smurfing--- Pi. 

They have no appreciation for elegant design, custom artwork, nor the desire to build anything remotely resembling what was in the Arcade BITD.

Ironic that the complaint is people aren't willing to put time into "elegant design" and "just want it simple", which is at least in part a reason for going with convenient LCD screens over large, heavy, maintenance-heavy CRTs.

It's all about what you find "good enough".  LCD+HLSL is good enough for many.  Plain old LCD is good enough for plenty of folks too.  Some of us still want to stick with CRT.  I don't think it matters, as long as you enjoy your setup (it's not like you're forced to play every "crapmame" cabinet all around the world).

[Titchgamer]

If you get thrills from High Voltages do what I did and become an Electrician!

I must say though getting a HV shock would be pretty far from Thrilling!!

I get paid far too well to change careers this late in the game.  I'll stick to fixing up CRTs as a hobby.

Just out of interest on a slightly related subject lol

Does anyone use vga scanline generators on their LCD's?

I've seen a few people use them.  I've even seen people fix older genuine arcade machine display problems by using CGA->VGA upscalers with a scanline generator thrown in there, displaying out to an LCD screen.  Worked well enough to give the illusion required for most people, but for anyone with more than a casual interest in arcades it stood out.

Again, see my comments above.  It's all about the pedantry.  This quote was interesting:

Mostly because people don't bother with a PC powerful enough to run it half the newbies here want to use the ---smurfing--- Pi. 

They have no appreciation for elegant design, custom artwork, nor the desire to build anything remotely resembling what was in the Arcade BITD.

Ironic that the complaint is people aren't willing to put time into "elegant design" and "just want it simple", which is at least in part a reason for going with convenient LCD screens over large, heavy, maintenance-heavy CRTs.

It's all about what you find "good enough".  LCD+HLSL is good enough for many.  Plain old LCD is good enough for plenty of folks too.  Some of us still want to stick with CRT.  I don't think it matters, as long as you enjoy your setup (it's not like you're forced to play every "crapmame" cabinet all around the world).

Must admit its a handy skill to have!
Maybe I will learn one day.