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Author Topic: Open-source front end  (Read 25927 times)

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SirPoonga

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Re: Open-source front end
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2002, 09:34:23 pm »

Ok... we are talking about implimentations...

Dave_K.

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2002, 01:38:07 pm »
I completely agree with SirPoonga.  Its apparent you should be using Java if you want full cross platform compatability using open standards.  There is even a JVM for DOS!  Lots of XML java tools, GUI tools, and JDBC api for ubiqutious database access.

-Dave

Lilwolf

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2002, 01:44:38 pm »
Since JFront is a java frontend I can talk about it a little.

It's great for many features... but...  One major trouble I'm having with it.  I can't run a dos program from it.  Why?  I get some runtime error.

This isn't a big deal for me.  I'm not running any dos emulators...

but where it would have been nice is that I was able to control the encoders based on game/emulator.  So I could configure my encoder for all modeler games... then something else for most mame games... then something different based on what cp your using....

but I could only get it to work when I ran the win32 bit version of the encoder software and most encoders dont work

why am I mentioning this?  Well, because it would never be able to use for dos emulators/games.  And this will keep some people away from java

but other then that... its a great language for a frontend

Dave Dribin

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2002, 03:31:38 pm »

I completely agree with SirPoonga.  Its apparent you should be using Java if you want full cross platform compatability using open standards.  There is even a JVM for DOS!  Lots of XML java tools, GUI tools, and JDBC api for ubiqutious database access.


Don't forget about C.  C is probably the most portable language currently in existance running on just about every platform designed in the last 20 years.  There are plenty of 3rd party libraries for C, too (including XML).  C is "more open" than Java, since its not controlled by a single corporation and has an official ISO/ANSI standard.

Don't get me wrong, I love Java.  I've been programming Java professionally for the last 2+ years now.  And if you want a standard GUI interface, than Java is a good choice.  Swing is a decent GUI API, though it's ugly and a little sluggish.  Java is just not the only cross-platform language that could be used for a front end.

BTW, I've never heard of a JVM for DOS.  Do you have any pointers to that?

-Dave

Dave_K.

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2002, 04:27:55 pm »

BTW, I've never heard of a JVM for DOS.  Do you have any pointers to that?


Here is one:
http://www.openje.org/kaffepc/manuals/en/index.html
There may be more.  I've never tried them personally.

-Dave

SirPoonga

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2002, 05:52:27 pm »


I completely agree with SirPoonga.  Its apparent you should be using Java if you want full cross platform compatability using open standards.  There is even a JVM for DOS!  Lots of XML java tools, GUI tools, and JDBC api for ubiqutious database access.


Don't forget about C.  C is probably the most portable language currently in existance running on just about every platform designed in the last 20 years.  There are plenty of 3rd party libraries for C, too (including XML).  C is "more open" than Java, since its not controlled by a single corporation and has an official ISO/ANSI standard.

Don't get me wrong, I love Java.  I've been programming Java professionally for the last 2+ years now.  And if you want a standard GUI interface, than Java is a good choice.  Swing is a decent GUI API, though it's ugly and a little sluggish.  Java is just not the only cross-platform language that could be used for a front end.

BTW, I've never heard of a JVM for DOS.  Do you have any pointers to that?

-Dave



True, C is "more cross platform" but that really is an opinion too:)

I suggested java because of the ease of doing a GUI.  You say it has ugly GUI, then you don't know enough about it!  My friend di a full screen app in java.  It mapped out an intranet.   displayed everything radial style.  The computer or router or network element you click on would (animate) to the center of the screen.  everything one connection away would be on the first circle around it, everything 2 connections away, would be one the second radius (radius is better than saying circal since it is a radial design).  You could click on another element and it would all animate so that element would be come the center of the radiuses.  Was fast and looked pretty sweet.

Dave_K.

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #86 on: September 13, 2002, 06:17:12 pm »
Yes, I guess C is a cross platform language, but its a challenge to keep the code portable.  Java was made for this, and its a breeze.  You could even distribute with the compiled byte code so there is no need to run complicated makefiles or .configure scripts like with C.  There are a slew of other reasons why its eaiser to develop a joint project like this in Java than C, but I won't get into the pros/cons of object oriented programming v.s. procedural, memory management, or threading models.

-Dave

Dave Dribin

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2002, 06:32:08 pm »

True, C is "more cross platform" but that really is an opinion too:)


Actually, that's an easily quantifiable fact with a little research.  Again, I'm not knocking Java.  I didn't say Java wasn't cross platform now, did I?  It certainly is more cross platform than VB or Flash, but Java is not the "one and only" cross platform language.
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I suggested java because of the ease of doing a GUI.


Which I agree on.  Swing is easy to work with.  There are cross platform GUI libraries for C, too.
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You say it has ugly GUI, then you don't know enough about it!


Well, you're entiteld to your opinion, but I happen to think the Swing "metal" look and feel *is* ugly and a little slow and unresponsive.  I have used many Swing apps, so I think I'm qualified on this subject.  This isn't something I'm quoting from some article I read.  It's a personal experience, so don't tell me what I know and don't know.
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My friend di a full screen app in java.  It mapped out an intranet. ....  Was fast and looked pretty sweet.


Well good for your friend. :P  Seriously, I'm not knocking Java as a cross platform language.  It's just not the one and only language to develop a cross platform FE in and neither is C.

-Dave

Dave Dribin

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2002, 06:47:37 pm »

Yes, I guess C is a cross platform language, but its a challenge to keep the code portable.  ....


You make some very good points in there, but they still don't rule out C.  It's not *that* difficult to write portable C code.  And don't forget about C++ which is nearly as cross platform as C, but object oriented.   I'm a big fan of OO, too.

Anyhow, I guess my main point is that a programming language shouldn't be chosen without knowing all the requirements.  Going on the one requirement of "cross platform", there are more choices than just Java.  There are more choices than Java, C, and C++, even.  Perhaps Python or Ruby is the best language for someone's ideal front end.

-Dave

Lilwolf

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2002, 07:26:55 pm »
As java goes... Swing IS slow!  It's HUGE and it bloated...  But when it works for you it's great (creating buisness screens for a standard PC).

Sure you can create a fullscreen app.  But has anyone here !@##ed with the !@#!@ up focus problems with the Window object (the full screen frame?).  It's so bad, that I had to change to 1.4 for jfront and use a non-decorated frame... so your stuck with 1.4+... not a huge deal though..

As for C / C++... (get one and you can use the other usually)... the trouble is the libraries aren't always crossplatform... and there libraries are very very useful.  But we could use the C++ and the libraries used my mame... why?  mainly so we could make sure that it works on all platforms that mame runs on...

but you still have the problem of modularity... Add some classes at runtime in C/C++... You just can't really do it without HUGE problems (and I don't think you would find a crossplatform solution)...


Howard_Casto

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #90 on: September 13, 2002, 09:50:27 pm »
The truth of the matter is there is never going to be a cross-platform front-end.  There is a perfectly good reason for this.  Operating systems arent' meant to be intercompatible.  

Ok don't flame me but here is the matter at hand.....

Java=too slow/akward

Flash=maybe... but it's very dependant upon the os around it.

C=Not truely cross platform in that different parts need to be coded for different oses.  Also straight C isn't very friendly when it comes to graphics.  I find it amazing that the mame team have gotten it to work so well for them.

Any other programming lang=proprietary.

So what about html, dynamic php and all of that crap?  Well basically these can't launche external programs so you are screwed there.  

You've got to look at the practical side of things.  It's much simplier to have 4 seperate fes that all run great on their respective platforms than to try to make some nasty uber beast.  Plus I don't think any of us are familiar with linux, windoze, mac os, mac ox X, bsd ect to make one big one.  

SirPoonga

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2002, 11:22:31 pm »

Flash=maybe... but it's very dependant upon the os around it.

Very true, as my FE is flash.
Though with MX it will not work whatever for a multiplatform FE unless you combine it with director maybe.  But then you have to make a mac version and pc version.  Is there other OS flash runs on???


Second, HC is partly right, there is noway to make an ENTIRE fe crossplatform.  It is more likely to make the data store (database, XML, whatever) cross platform but not the GUI.  In otherwords one could make a backend that is cross platform that would just need a good frontend that can talk to it.  We've talked about this before, too lazy to search for the thread right now.  Actually, it's kinda like java, the bytecode binary (.class file) would be the "backend" and the JVM would be the "frontend".  you have to have the JVM for the particular OS.

Dave_K.

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2002, 03:28:47 am »

Java=too slow/akward

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by Java being akward?

As for Java's speed, well that all depends upon how complex the GUI is.  I really hate how people immediatly think Java is slow.  There are tools available on all platforms for speeding up java performance.  Sure it may not be as fast as a natively compiled C program, or be a choice to write an RTOS, but come on we are talking about graphical menu system here.

To answer SirPoonga, Java is a perfect backend.  Its flexable enough to work with almost any database and even no database if you prefer to store your data on disk in say a properties file.

-Dave

SirPoonga

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2002, 03:48:08 am »
the data doesn't have to be stored in a database, to be truely cross platform you need textfiles.  XML does very well at that and I hear java has excelent xml capabilities.

Dave Dribin

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2002, 12:55:30 pm »


Flash=maybe... but it's very dependant upon the os around it.

Very true, as my FE is flash.
Though with MX it will not work whatever for a multiplatform FE unless you combine it with director maybe.  But then you have to make a mac version and pc version.  Is there other OS flash runs on???


I run Linux and can use most Flash sites, except some of the newer ones.  Flash 5 runs on most Unix platforms.  Flash 6 is Win/Mac only and Shockwave is Win/Mac only.

http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/alternates/

The Flash development environment is also not free (as in cost) which is a big drawback for an Open Source project, IMHO.  If If I want to contribute to an Open Source project, the last thing I want to do is shell out a few hundred bucks for some developement kit.

-Dave

Dave Dribin

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2002, 01:01:42 pm »

the data doesn't have to be stored in a database, to be truely cross platform you need textfiles.  XML does very well at that and I hear java has excelent xml capabilities.


Yeah, I agree.  I think using a separate RDBMS for a FE is *way* overkill.  A FE isn't going to use 90% of what a full blown RDBMS provides and it's a PITA to require the end-user to install a RDMBS.

And Java *does* have excellent XML capabilites.  Anyone doing XML work for  Java should look at JDOM:

http://www.jdom.org/

-Dave

Dave Dribin

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #96 on: September 14, 2002, 01:49:07 pm »

The truth of the matter is there is never going to be a cross-platform front-end.  There is a perfectly good reason for this.  Operating systems arent' meant to be intercompatible.


Well, true, OSes aren't designed to be interoperable, but that doesn't mean a FE cannot be cross platform.  Game Launcher is cross platform.  You may not like GL, but that doesn't detract from the fact the GL runs natively on DOS, Windows, and any Unix (not just Linux).  It would probably run under Mac OS, too, but I don't have a Mac to try it out on.
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Java=too slow/akward


I may be sounding like a broken record here, but it depends on what you want your front-end to do.  If you want a standard GUI, than Java is a good option.  I don't think Java is too slow, just slower and a little sluggish.  If you want the minimum system requirements to be a 1Ghhz+ CPU with 256MB+ of memory, Java will easily be fast enough for you.  If you are targetting a P2 300, then Java is gonna be a little too slow, I think.

As far as Java being awkward, I have to disagree.  Java is one of the most non-awkward languages I have ever used.  It's really a fun language to program in.
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C=Not truely cross platform in that different parts need to be coded for different oses.  Also straight C isn't very friendly when it comes to graphics.


Well one of the problems with C as compared to Java is that there is no "standard" graphics and GUI API.  But there are some very good graphics libraries out there.  SDL, OpenGL, and Allegro come to mind immediately.  All are C based and all are portable among the many popular OSes.  Many professional games, including Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament, use SDL and OpenGL.

I personally have used Allegro and it took me all of 1 day to port the graphcs part of Game Launcher to Windows and Linux.  The hardest part of porting GL was the code that launches an external program.  Of course, this is only a few hundred lines out of 20,000.  Unfortunately it is also the most important part and still needs some cleaning up.
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I find it amazing that the mame team have gotten it to work so well for them.


It's called good design.  They've abstracted out the graphics so that 95% of all of MAME is portable to any system with an ANSI C compiler.  And it's easy to plug in a new graphics engine.  That's why you can see MAME on devices from digital cameras, PDAs, and the XBOX to a PC.  And that shows both the portability of C and the power of good sofware design.  Kudos to the MAME team!
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Any other programming lang=proprietary.


Well you do have Tcl, Perl, Python, and Ruby available wich are not proprietary.  I think all even have a portable GUI of some sort, too.
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You've got to look at the practical side of things.  It's much simplier to have 4 seperate fes that all run great on their respective platforms than to try to make some nasty uber beast.  Plus I don't think any of us are familiar with linux, windoze, mac os, mac ox X, bsd ect to make one big one.  


With a little work, you can be cross platform to all those.  And you don't necessarily have to be an expert on all of them.  For Java, all the cross platform stuff goes in the JVM and Sun takes care of it.  For C/C++ the cross platforfm stuff goes into properly abstracted graphics modules.  Again to bring up Game Launcher as a case study, I didn't have to be that familiar with Windows to make a Windows port.  The Allegro guys are the Windows experts and have already done the hard work for me.  I couldn't program DirectX if my life depended on it, yet GL is a DirectX application.  That's pretty cool.

-Dave

Lilwolf

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #97 on: September 15, 2002, 04:01:07 pm »
Java slow???  

Howard... I've been told from a few out there that my frontend is the fastest of any of the NextGen frontend... hehe...  

MUCH faster then all the flash/autherware/ect

Java, with hotspot compilers, are about 10% slower then native C.  But that depends on what your doing.  The lower level, the slower... mainly because arrays are really objects... and they automatically do things like bounds checking.  

Swing is slow because every object is so general... that they each can do about anything.  And they they give hooks for people to rewrite the parts that they want/need.  But doing so slows them down considerably.

but all in all... until the jvm's fix the problems with launching dos applications... I would say it's not a good choice... I don't run any dos emulators currently... but I would love to be able to configure most encoders from a frontend.


Dave Dribin

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #98 on: September 15, 2002, 06:52:05 pm »
but all in all... until the jvm's fix the problems with launching dos applications... I would say it's not a good choice... I don't run any dos emulators currently... but I would love to be able to configure most encoders from a frontend.


I assume you're using java.lang.Runtime.exec() to launch programs, right?  What errors do you get?  One thing to try is launching "command.com /c <program>".  Maybe you'll have better luck spawning command.com, rather than the program itself.  Of couse, this part would be Windows specific, but I think you can detect what OS you're on in Java.

-Dave

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2002, 11:43:59 pm »
OK well I figure I'll throw my $0.02 in on this one.

The two arguments I see going back and forth are over the use of some kind of data management system (XML, RBDMS, Etc..) and over the use of a language for various reasons (speed, portability, ui)..

First of all, I have to agree that using a full blown RBDMS is a bit overkill.., especially if this is to be a portable application.  End users, especially those who arent' very technically inclined, will simply not use a frontend if they are required to install a RBDMS to run it.  It's too difficult, when most users are looking for a "plug and play" solution.

People have been complaining about the speed of XML as a solution.  However, I happen to believe XML is an ideal solution, basically because of its flexibility and the sheer number of tools available to utilize it. And I have doubts about the need for crazy speed when, basically, the data will only be used to display a list of available games for the user, and does not need to have any complex queries run on it.

As far as the language to use, I'd have to say that I think C or C++ developed something like gcc or djgpp would be ideal for the design.  People have been complaining about the speed of swing, or the ease of VB for UI design, but, at least from a Cabinet Owner's standpoint, people do not want a "windowed" UI for a frontend.  And being that there are a few good cross platform API's out there for 2d graphics, I'd think C/C++ would be the way to go for speed and portablilty.

I've even been planning on possibly creating a custom frontend for my cabinet, using OpenGL for 3d graphics....  Basically for show, but i'd love to have some eyecandy on a frontend... you know, exploding transition effects, particle engines, just craziness (even though you'll need a nasty video card to run it properly)..   However, being that i'm new to C++ (I've been doing VB programming professionally for 3 years, just dabbling in C++), I'm not quite sure how I'm going to pull that off, but i'll find a way, like usual..

Just thought I'd add my comments (and some more length to this rediculously long thread)

;D
--NipsMG



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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #100 on: September 18, 2002, 06:33:58 am »

Java slow???  

Howard... I've been told from a few out there that my frontend is the fastest of any of the NextGen frontend... hehe...  

MUCH faster then all the flash/autherware/ect

Java, with hotspot compilers, are about 10% slower then native C.  But that depends on what your doing.  The lower level, the slower... mainly because arrays are really objects... and they automatically do things like bounds checking.  

Swing is slow because every object is so general... that they each can do about anything.  And they they give hooks for people to rewrite the parts that they want/need.  But doing so slows them down considerably.

but all in all... until the jvm's fix the problems with launching dos applications... I would say it's not a good choice... I don't run any dos emulators currently... but I would love to be able to configure most encoders from a frontend.


Java is slow and akward in terms of development speed, not the actual run speed.  And regardless of what anyone thinks java is akward for two reasons....  

#1 It's just like C in a bad way.....
Meaning you have to deal with header files and c's annoying syntax. (Which I do know but still find the silliest of all langs)  >P<, myself and ArcadeFx don't have to deal with that junk which greatly simplifies the souce and speeds up development.  Of course all of our langs are pretty much propritory, which even proves my point more that you can make seperate fe's for each os much fster/easier than doing a big one, even if it is just the backend.  

#2 It's not like C in a bad way....  
For some reason many of the useful built-in functions of c/visual c are lfet out of java.

I'm not saying java is a bad language, but what it really is, is a crippled version of C that's supposed to be more portable but in actuality isn't any mroe protable than c.  Since C has all of the extra features why not just use C if you are going that route?  Now mind you it is really good for databases, but I've still found that a simple text file is the best database simply because of the added hastle of another interface level.  

My listgenerator parses the listinfo file and dat files converting it into a list of records minus the junk. After that you just make an array, which is simple to do in any language.  I've found the backend stuff to be simple, too simple to waste time making a universal one.  The hard part is usually the gui and how you use the backend info.  

Dave Dribin

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #101 on: September 18, 2002, 10:40:38 am »
Java is slow and akward in terms of development speed, not the actual run speed.


Huh? I can build a Java program consisting of over 70 Java files in 10 seconds.  And I've compiled bigger programs (hundreds of files) in only seconds more.  And that's compiling *all* files which rarely needs to be done.  A typical build only takes a few seconds.
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And regardless of what anyone thinks java is akward for two reasons....  

#1 It's just like C in a bad way.....
Meaning you have to deal with header files and c's annoying syntax.


Nope, no header files in the Java I've used.  Just .java files.  And what annoying C syntax are you talking about?  Sure Java looks similar to C with the curly braces, but that's hardly annoying.
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>P<, myself and ArcadeFx don't have to deal with that junk which greatly simplifies the souce and speeds up development.


Hmm.... ok.  Those languages have no stupid syntax at all, right.  They're perfect.  Yeah.... right.  I don't buy for a second that those languages don't have some part of the syntax that isn't annoying.  And I'm skeptical of this syntax that "greatly simplifies the source and speeds up development".  I don't know those languages you talk about, but I doubt syntax can cut development time by any quantifiable amount.
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#2 It's not like C in a bad way....  
For some reason many of the useful built-in functions of c/visual c are lfet out of java.


What?!  Such as.....
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I'm not saying java is a bad language, but what it really is, is a crippled version of C that's supposed to be more portable but in actuality isn't any mroe protable than c.


Well, actually, you *are* saying Java is a bad language. :P  And I don't buy it.  Not one of your arguments has any basis in fact.  Sorry.  Pure FUD.

Have you ever actually *programmed* in Java before, or did you just see some code snippets on a piece of paper?  From some of your arguments (particularly the header file one), it doesn't sound like you've ever used it.

-Dave

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #102 on: September 18, 2002, 11:19:26 am »
#1 It's just like C in a bad way.....
Meaning you have to deal with header files and c's annoying syntax. (Which I do know but still find the silliest of all langs)  >P<, myself and ArcadeFx don't have to deal with that junk which greatly simplifies the souce and speeds up development.  Of course all of our langs are pretty much propritory, which even proves my point more that you can make seperate fe's for each os much fster/easier than doing a big one, even if it is just the backend.  

Mentioned above... No headers

#2 It's not like C in a bad way....  
For some reason many of the useful built-in functions of c/visual c are lfet out of java.

Actually... 100% backwards...  Java has all the useful parts into the core.  C 100% doesn't.  Ansi C has VERYVERY little to it... anything else is an add on.  If you are talking about MFC, then you drop crossplatform or have to play games.... But Java is VERY rich in features set... and installing additional packages is one line at the bigging of the file...

As for quick text file access.  It deals with all files as streams.  This makes some simple items a little more complicated.  But people don't use straight text files.  They use property files

fred=joe
test=1

and thats one command to get it the values.  VERY easy.  If you need  more then a property file, usually you goto XML or a database.


btw, one of the great things about java is that IDE's are almost all free / crossplatform and great also.  

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #103 on: September 18, 2002, 11:50:03 am »
I'm coming late to the party, and I don't have my own FE...

but I found it ironic that in my inbox today I had a link to this article/editorial about alternatives to swing like AWT/etc

Language advocacy is a weird thing...  I say:

1. use the best tool for the job
2. use what you are familiar with

that's of course and oversimplification, but hey... that's my style...

What I like about JAVA is this: NO MALLOC and NO POINTERS =P  when coding I don't want mess around with memory locations, i'd rather let the compiler/runtime deal with that... but that's more an argument for "higher" level languages than just for java.

Different languages have different strenghts and weakness... so do different coders....   RAD type languages can be very powerful, but I can see cases where one would want to be able to dive down deeper than the language lets your.  

IOW to each his own... but I like cross platform open sourced FE's personally... I can't stand when there's a super cool FE (or any other proggie), but it doesn't work in my environment.

*shrug* YMMV,

rampy


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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #104 on: September 18, 2002, 12:45:58 pm »

Have you ever actually *programmed* in Java before, or did you just see some code snippets on a piece of paper?  From some of your arguments (particularly the header file one), it doesn't sound like you've ever used it.


Yeah, I took a symester or two of java.  I'm sorry if I didn't use the correct teriminology.  I didn't mean a true.h file, what I meant was the fact that you have to tell your main the other files exist. Vb doesn't do that as do many other proprietory languages.  In vb if you have 20 module files you never have to write a single line of code setting those up, the development package does that for you automatically when you compile.  This is how it should be btw for all langs.    

Memory managment, pointers, the built in functions that make c so much more versitile are often missing in java or they are replaced by a much more complex calling method.  Sorry if you haven't ran into that before.  

And yes ease of syntax makes a HUGE difference.  I don't have to remember to put in ;'s at the end of each line, for example.  I cant' remember the times in java and c that I spend forever tracking down a missing semi-colon.  How stupid is that?  What is that needed for?  Why doesn't it just use the carriage return?  Vb is syntax is how you would write it down on paper if you were working out  the logic... no brackets, no semi-colons, no nonsense.  Not to mention that java is case sensitive which is retarded.  I know it was written for sun but why in the world would you ever want to make a function called 'Bob' and another function called 'bob' and run them in the same program?  That's not only confusing, but bad coding technique.  They should have nixed the case check and made the whole thing a LOT easier.  

Anyway now it sounds like I'm dumping on java which wasn't what I wanted to do, that's why I didn't do specific examples last time, but you guys asked for it...... sorry.

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #105 on: September 18, 2002, 03:33:55 pm »

Yeah, I took a symester or two of java.  I'm sorry if I didn't use the correct teriminology.  I didn't mean a true.h file, what I meant was the fact that you have to tell your main the other files exist. Vb doesn't do that as do many other proprietory languages.  In vb if you have 20 module files you never have to write a single line of code setting those up, the development package does that for you automatically when you compile.  This is how it should be btw for all langs.    

Wrong!  You have to add the module to the project!  The IDE does all the including for you.  Adding the module to the project is pretty much the same as using an include or import statment.

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Memory managment, pointers, the built in functions that make c so much more versitile are often missing in java or they are replaced by a much more complex calling method.  Sorry if you haven't ran into that before.  

Doesn't mean VB has its time because of its limitations where you have to be more complex than another lanagauge.

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And yes ease of syntax makes a HUGE difference.  I don't have to remember to put in ;'s at the end of each line, for example.  I cant' remember the times in java and c that I spend forever tracking down a missing semi-colon.  How stupid is that?  What is that needed for?  Why doesn't it just use the carriage return?

Have you ever written a compiler? It does make sense to use ; or something to denote the end of an instruction.

Plus what about if you want to put the instruction on multiple line?  In VB you have to have  " _" (yes a space in front, THAT annoys me) where in c++ or java you just need that ; at the end of the instruction.

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Vb is syntax is how you would write it down on paper if you were working out  the logic... no brackets, no semi-colons, no nonsense.  

The is a blessing and an evil to VB.  It's good for some things and bad for other things.
I'm surised you aren't suggestion COBOL, if you want a super easy to write language....


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Not to mention that java is case sensitive which is retarded.  I know it was written for sun but why in the world would you ever want to make a function called 'Bob' and another function called 'bob' and run them in the same program?  That's not only confusing, but bad coding technique.  They should have nixed the case check and made the whole thing a LOT easier.

This comes from little real world experience.  Sorry college doesn't give you  the experience of working with a large team.  One team member makes function FConst() while another makes fConst().  they won't get confused with each other.

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Anyway now it sounds like I'm dumping on java which wasn't what I wanted to do, that's why I didn't do specific examples last time, but you guys asked for it...... sorry.

Actaully, it sounds more like inexperience.  Granted I have only been out of college a year or two more than you, I have learned alot more than what college has taught me.  You know when oyu sit in class, the teacher is trying to teach you something new, but you really don't pay attention because you think you will never use it.  Haha, amazing how some of those thoughts you actually use in the "real" world.

when choosing a compiler, you have to think about what tasks you probably will end up doing.  Like I know it is easier in VB to use an access db, that why I use VB for my backend to my FE.  java has awesome XML, string parsing, and true OO which gives it advantages over other langauges.    

Personally, I think java is one of the best languages out there.  The VM may not be fast, but this isn't about the VM, it's about the language.  When I program I completely think in OO so java comes naturally to me.

Can you use inheritance in VB?   Thisis an extremely powerful characteristic of OO programming.  Like I've been redoing the AI for armagetron.  Being able to inherit the original AI class and override functions is very nice.  I don't have to change anything to someone else's code.  I can just plop my code in and it works.  Pretty cool!

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #106 on: September 18, 2002, 04:08:00 pm »
Ok, restarting from square one.

Actually, I reread what I wrote.  The most important stuff is after the ****.

Ok, let's think about what the advantages of some langauges are over others, and the feature one would need in an FE.

So, I am going to ask a bunch of questions.

Very first question.  should there jsut be an open source backend?  Since everyone has their own opinion on FEs it is impossible to make an open source FE everyone will like.  But I'm not stopping you:)

Second, should it be crossplatform?
Actually, I have mixed feeling on this.  It definately won't be for macmame has that is like mame32, it has it's own gui.
But for OS X, linux, any other unix port it would be nice.

Second, this answer somewhat depends on if it should be cross platform and just a backend.  Should the data be stored in text files or a db.  Personally, if it isn't going to be crossplatform then a DB is great.  SQL is very fast and really easy to use to get the data you need, no multiple parsings of text files, smaller memory footprint.  Yes, a small memory footprint is somewhat important.  Not everyone is going to be using a 2Ghz machine is 1g of memory.  Some of us have a PIII650 with 128 megs of ram in their cabinet.  well, if oyu want to play a larger rom you need the memory open.
However, text file does have it's advavtages.  A pure textfile has a huge disadvantage of that you need to manually parse.  However, that's where XML comes in.  Using an XML parser does all that for you if you store the data in XML format.  Also is a textfile is crossplatform too.

If one uses a text file what language is best suited for it.
Non cross platform, VB.
Cross platform, java.  Java has AWESOME string parsing and an very good XML parser, so I hear.
c++ sucks at string parsing.  Though, if it wasn't cross platform, only on windows, it is really easy to use XML 4.0 from M$.

Now, one would say why not include c++ if it is crossplatform.  Well, c++ code may or maynot be crossplatform, the executable isn't.  With java, the whole purpose of java, is to have to make the bytecode only once and be able to run on any machine.


So, after all that is said, for a backend I suggest this:
not crossplatform: VB with XML or Access
crossplatform: java with XML

now, this is just the backend.  That means an FE would have to talk to it.  So being able to easily interface with it it important.
Non crossplatform:  VB solution, use a dll.  you can;t get much easie to interface than an axtiveX dll.
crossplatform:  well, there's java's downfall in this situation.  It would be very hard to make a non java FE then.

Ahhh, but there is another solution to the crossplatform then.  One, you'd have to use a flatfile textfile, not XML.  Second, it would be done in c++ code.  The code itself would not compile into anything, liek a dll or exe.  The c++ code is just classes to access mame and the data.  You then just have to add those classes into your c++ FE project.

****

There are many different solution to this problem.  Guess what, there is an FE for almost each of those solutions already.
That makes you think, WHY make a universal backend.  easy, configuration.  We all know no one can agree what the best FE is.  That's why there are so many.  Each person has their own taste on what an FE should be.  BUT with a universal background, each FE would pretty much be configurable the same way.  It'd make switching FEs easy or trying out someone elses much easier.  now, my question is, do we really need that?


Actually, what I think is more needed, is something like my c++ solution idea above, but for each language.  That way an FE developer just has to add files to a project and not worry about anything but GUI and usability.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2002, 04:10:45 pm by SirPoonga »

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #107 on: September 18, 2002, 04:47:18 pm »
hehe, )p( IMed me almost instantly after I posted the above posts.  we were talking about it.

Here's a better idea.  The fundamentals need to be done first.  A uniform catver/datfile system.  That's  good first step.  Then it's just hops, skips, and jumps to make something that accesses the info from combining data from catvers and datfiles.

One thing, a catver should not be needed, but the datfile should.  The catver is just nice to know what category and what version of emu the rom belongs to.  that actually is a challenge.  Hence that's why lazarus requires a catver for anything along with the datfile.  If that statement is wrong correct me if I didn;t interpret lazarus correctly.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2002, 04:48:47 pm by SirPoonga »

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #108 on: September 18, 2002, 05:30:47 pm »
Yeah, I took a symester or two of java.  I'm sorry if I didn't use the correct teriminology.  I didn't mean a true.h file, what I meant was the fact that you have to tell your main the other files exist.


You must be talking about the "import" statements at the top of the file.
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Vb doesn't do that as do many other proprietory languages.  In vb if you have 20 module files you never have to write a single line of code setting those up, the development package does that for you automatically when you compile.


Hmm... "import" statements are *optional* in Java.  You're free to use the full class name.  If you're lazy and are on a small project, just put all your code in the same package.  Voila... no need for imports.

BTW, having packages and importing them is a Very Good Thing in the Real World.  Try working on a non-trivial project of more than 20 files and you will quickly learn the value of reducing namespace collisions.
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This is how it should be btw for all langs.


That's a very bold, arrogant, and incorrect statement.  It's statements like this that really show your naivete.
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Memory managment, pointers, the built in functions that make c so much more versitile are often missing in java or they are replaced by a much more complex calling method.  Sorry if you haven't ran into that before.


That's funny.  Most people would say that not having memory management and pointer APIs in Java is a good thing.  I doubt that VB, Flash, and Director have APIs for memory management and pointers, either.  I really don't see where you're going with this argument.

And you still haven't provided a concrete example of one of the "many" functions in C that was left out of Java.
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And yes ease of syntax makes a HUGE difference.  I don't have to remember to put in ;'s at the end of each line, for example.  I cant' remember the times in java and c that I spend forever tracking down a missing semi-colon.


Oh jeez!  You're argument is that the semicolons and curly braces make a HUGE difference?  Puh-leez.  If you were a professional Java progammer, you would code Java for hours just about every day.  If you're a week into your job and you *still* can't remember to put a semicolon at the end of the line, look for another career.
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Not to mention that java is case sensitive which is retarded.  I know it was written for sun but why in the world would you ever want to make a function called 'Bob' and another function called 'bob' and run them in the same program?  That's not only confusing, but bad coding technique.  They should have nixed the case check and made the whole thing a LOT easier.


You probably wouldn't have functions "bob" and "Bob", but there are many cases when different case is a good thing.  For example, if I have a class called "Sprite", I can have a variable called "sprite".  If Java was case insensitive, I would have to call the variable "mySprite" or something like that to avoid a conflict.  Using caps properly is a very *good* coding technique that can make code much more readable.

I really can't understand how requiring someone to type a shift here and there is such a bad thing for a language that not only do you think the language is so bad that you would completely avoid it, but you must tell other people how bad the language is.  If you don't like caps, just type the whole damn thing in lower case.  Java doesn't require you to name classes with an upper case.
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Anyway now it sounds like I'm dumping on java which wasn't what I wanted to do, that's why I didn't do specific examples last time, but you guys asked for it...... sorry.


Your specific examples just show how naive and inexperienced you are.  Inexperience in combo with a closed mind, arrogance, and a strong set of opinions.  That's not a really good combination.  Keep an open mind and lighten up on your opinions a little.  You have a lot to learn.

-Dave

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #109 on: September 19, 2002, 12:06:28 am »
Dave what the hell is your problem?  

I stated my opinion and then you guys basically in a nice way accuse me of not knowing what I am talking about so I defend myself and instead of saying "Ok now I understand where your opinion came from."  you attack me again.  

Grow up you big baby.

Don't think like a freakin engineer.  Engineers lack all common sense.  Trust me I am friends with a few.  That is the problem with ALL coding languages today, they are written by engineers and they don't understand a single thing about the common sense factor. Director and VB were companys attempts to make a coding language that even non-programmers could use as was java.  The difference between java and the other two is that java failed.  Java is a good language, but it's not a quick or easy language.  You don't understand that because you code in c and java is a step down from c.  

My wrappers are the best example I can think of.  It took a great deal of thinking outside of the box to get those to the universal level they are now.  A lot of people think they are simple but they are not.  I had dozens of hundreds of possiblities to take into account and yet they still work fairly well.  Do you know why?  I used api calls and functions and quirks that aren't supposed to work and forced them to work the way I wanted.  If you asked an engineer about my wrappers and told him how they work he would say that it was impossible, but guess what... they do work.  Also I was told by several that they would be best coded in java or c or some other language.  Well I tried them in all, and only vb would cut it.  It was the exact same logic and api's across the board but only vb could cut it.  The only way to do some of these tricks was with the aid of invisible forms.  Java's forms slowed machines down to a crawl and visual C++'s coding structure was so rigid that it would'nt even accept the api's in the way I needed to use them.  Do you know why vb worked when the rest didn't?  Simple... it's M$'s baby boy.  Guess what java is sun's baby boy... it's programs work best on a sun box.  Mac's and linux have their own baby boy's  (I'm not familiar enough with either os's to even begin to comment on those two.)  I was trying to prove a point but as usual you engineer mentality types can't see the forest for the trees.  It is completely and totally pointless to make a universal fe when their are so many native languages that are better suited for each indvidual os and application.

Now see how bad and awful that sounds?  I wanted to make my comments "kindler and gentler"  to satisfy a few of you more sensitive types but guys like you have to tick me off and force me to do things the hard way.  

The key to universality is to make config files and data files intercompatible between fe's and let the programmers concentrate on using the universal data we give them.  

>P< and myself have been working on this for some time  to make our fe's compatible and I'm telling you it's much easier this way.  He does his thing and I do mine but when we are done a user will be able to setup either and have the other configured based on the first.


And don't you dare say I've never coded anything serious.  I take this little project of mine very seriously.  Although graphically the code I use in lazarus is nothing special, behind the scenes the functionaly aspect is most likely the most complicated and advanced emulator front-end ever built, period.  That may seem like small potatoes to you but  d@mn well you better keep it to yourself.  You can talk about which language is better as that is a perfectly valild discussion and will lead to knowledge and possbily a solution.  

Leave my understanding of code and ability to program out of it, that's getting personal, and trust me you don't want to make this personal.

Oh and by the way ANY professor of computer science or professional  programmer worth anything will tell you that you NEVER name a variable and a function the same thing.  If the code is worked on by multiple people, same name declarations like that can be extremely confusing.  Since we have stopped pulling punches here I just thought I would point out how foolish you sounded from that remark.

I won't contribute to this thread anymore even though while some of you more hostile types are only talking some of us are actually putting some work in and geting results towards such a goal.  Thanks for being so closed minded Dave, it makes me feel better as a person.  :)

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #110 on: September 19, 2002, 01:05:14 am »
Whoa, settle down people.  HC, that post does show you as close minded too ;)


Anyway, I can see there is no way a project like this can come about.  At least from this group of people.  Too many opinions about wht is the best way.

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #111 on: September 19, 2002, 01:49:35 am »

Whoa, settle down people.  HC, that post does show you as close minded too ;)


Anyway, I can see there is no way a project like this can come about.  At least from this group of people.  Too many opinions about wht is the best way.


I am still in for that dat file ini file combo  :D

Peter

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #112 on: September 19, 2002, 01:55:54 am »


I am still in for that dat file ini file combo  :D

Peter


The idea we chatted about?  being able to combine a datfile and a catver file into an XML database?  XML is super easy to create.  I could make something rather quickly.

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #113 on: September 19, 2002, 02:01:57 am »



I am still in for that dat file ini file combo  :D

Peter


The idea we chatted about?  being able to combine a datfile and a catver file into an XML database?  XML is super easy to create.  I could make something rather quickly.


Yeah but the first step should be a naming convention for emulators and fields to be used in the dat files. Also we could add optional additional sections to the ini files... Maybe we should start a new thread for brainstorming how to do setup the dat and ini files for specific emulators/gamesystems...

Peter

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #114 on: September 19, 2002, 02:14:41 am »




I am still in for that dat file ini file combo  :D

Peter


The idea we chatted about?  being able to combine a datfile and a catver file into an XML database?  XML is super easy to create.  I could make something rather quickly.


Yeah but the first step should be a naming convention for emulators and fields to be used in the dat files. Also we could add optional additional sections to the ini files... Maybe we should start a new thread for brainstorming how to do setup the dat and ini files for specific emulators/gamesystems...

Peter



Good idea, because this topic is for open source frontend.

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #115 on: September 19, 2002, 02:19:25 am »
Ouch, after reading some of this, I wonder how any open source project ever started.  I guess this is what happens when you mix CS and non CS majors.

-Dave
« Last Edit: September 19, 2002, 02:21:21 am by Dave_K. »

SirPoonga

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #116 on: September 19, 2002, 02:26:27 am »

Ouch, after reading some of this, I wonder how any open source project ever started.  I guess this is what happens when you mix CS and non CS majors.

-Dave



Actually, most open source projects start a a hobby project by one person.  Look at mame and linux.  Most didn't start witha  group of people wanting to do the same thing.
And since ther are no managers, supervisors, or higher ups, ina  group situation it is hard to get something open source started.

Management does have a purpose, even if at times they need a swift kick in the head.

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #117 on: September 19, 2002, 03:06:58 am »
Dave what the hell is your problem?


My problem is quite simply this: I got tired of your BS.  I am usually a calm person, and I *rarely* flame people on email, forums, usenet, etc, even when they deserve it.  I am very tolerant and open minded to opinions.  And usually when someone states so much non-truth as you have, I usually just completely ignore it.  I guess you know how to hit my buttons just right, and I felt I needed to respond.

My main point (though you may see this differently) was not to flame you or make you look like an ass.  It was to refute your "facts" as I don't want people to think badly of Java or C just because HC said so, and stated it as a fact.  I probably gave your opinions too much weight and should have never responded.  And it's not only what you say, but how you say it.  Instead of saying "I don't like Java becuase I can't type semicolons" you say "Java is a bad language because it has semicolons".  This first one is stated as an opnion, the second one is stated as fact.  And you didn't present your opinion as fact just once.  I could let that slide.  You did it over and over and over again.  And that's what got to me.

Quote
Don't think like a freakin engineer.  Engineers lack all common sense.


Howard, we were (at one point) talking about an engineering topic, aka how do I pick a language to use for a project.  An engineering topic calls for an engineering discussion.  Remind me never to hire you onto one of my projects.

Statements such as "Java/C/C++ is awkward/slow/bad/non-portable because ...".  NEED to be backed up by FACT.  If you think that presenting an argument and then presenting facts to backup your argument is just for thinking like an engineer, then so be it.  Lawyers may beg to differ.

I won't even bother to coment on the rest of your message as am just completely enraged by it.  You can't recall what I said correctly.

These last few posts got *way* OT as they had nothing to do with Open Source FEs and I do apologize for that.  I will not comment further on this.

As for the original topic.... what was it again?  I think rampy summed up my thoughts on language selection, but somehow I think that language selection wasn't even the original topic.  How about starting a new thread as this one has been left on the grill too long and is a little well-done.

-Dave

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #118 on: September 19, 2002, 03:24:18 am »
atually, I think I summed it up pretty well with
Quote

There are many different solution to this problem.  Guess what, there is an FE for almost each of those solutions already.
That makes you think, WHY make a universal backend.  easy, configuration.  We all know no one can agree what the best FE is.  That's why there are so many.  Each person has their own taste on what an FE should be.  BUT with a universal background, each FE would pretty much be configurable the same way.  It'd make switching FEs easy or trying out someone elses much easier.  now, my question is, do we really need that?


Pretty much, I don't think an open source FE is a good idea.  I do think a common "backend", datfile, whatever you want it to be, a common way to store the information about games.
Kinda like an XML file with datfile AND catver info in it, or something like that.
Then, after that is setup, providing tools to use that with different languages.  Like a set of VB classes and modules to use and parse that data, same with java, c++, perl, python, what ever.
That way the developer just need to include the files in the project.  Say for example you use VB, just include and class and modules.  There will probably be some init functions, the you have a class that stores all the info.

That way There is a common base is FE developers use it.  

I've been working alto if XML in java, c++, and vb lately.  It is very easy to pickup XML.  It essentially is a markup langauge and a db mashed together.  Pretty powerful stuff.  I have been reading the book, "XML for the the real world" by Elizabeth Castro.  Great beginners book.

XML is basically two parts.  the XML file, that stores data and a translator, the uses the data.  It's hard to explain what a translator is.  but essentially that is what is used to "filter" out the data you need.  The cool thing, At least with VB and VC++, it uses the  M$ XML 4.0 parser.  The tool for parsing the text file is already there:)

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Re:Open-source front end
« Reply #119 on: September 19, 2002, 03:36:43 am »

Ouch, after reading some of this, I wonder how any open source project ever started.  I guess this is what happens when you mix CS and non CS majors.


Well, I hope you pegged me as the CS guy.  Well, ok I was a computer engineering major, but close enough.

BTW, one of the classic flame wars in Open Source lore is between Linus Torvalds and Andrew Tannenbaum.  Tannenbaum started off the thread with a subject of "LINUX is obsolete".  You can almost guess Linus' response.  This was way back in 1992 and Tannenbaum was comparing Linux to MINIX.  It's quite an interesting read:

http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/appa.html

-Dave