Xbox One

[knave]

A couple comments about PC gaming:

If I am to consider cost of a console vs cost of a gaming PC I also have to consider that I would need a non gaming PC anyway. So If I am going to buy a halfway decent PC for doing all my computing tasks its gonna cost $500 ish. Add the cost of the console ($300) and I am up to what I paid for my gaming PC three and a half years ago.

I plan on using it for at least another year and then my daughter will inherit it. so I'm getting good value for my $800.

next:

Trends in PC gaming are going away from physical media. Part of that sucks in that I don't have a disc to own and to install whenever I wish, but there are other counter benefits, as in now I can install this game wherever I am (if the PC can handle it). The downside remains that I can't give or sell it to anyone else. but I also never loose it in some forgotten box in the garage either. any time I want to play an old title I can re-download it and play. My examples are mostly based on steam which I have grudgingly accepted more and more over the past few years. I move my box of old PC disks around the garage from time to time but I rarely try to play them. I am finally willing to call this a draw between the two arguments.

Console manufacturers still haven't totally figured it out yet though. I might buy a downloaded game for $10 but I'll never buy a one time license of a game for $60. I don't buy new console games as it is...I buy used...If I can't buy used games I won't buy the system. period.

[paigeoliver]

I actually can't believe the new generation of consoles is even using physical media at all. It has got to be because of the "can't keep my life together enough even to manage a debit card" crowd, who seem to heavily prefer consoles.

[Malenko]

I actually can't believe the new generation of consoles is even using physical media at all. It has got to be because of the "can't keep my life together enough even to manage a debit card" crowd, who seem to heavily prefer consoles.

I manage to pay a mortgage every month, car payment too, and I'm saving up for my wedding. I still prefer physical media.

[Howard_Casto]

I actually can't believe the new generation of consoles is even using physical media at all. It has got to be because of the "can't keep my life together enough even to manage a debit card" crowd, who seem to heavily prefer consoles.

paige, I mean this in the nicest possible way.  If you are a real gamer and don't prefer physical media, you need to change your mind immediately because your preference is detrimental to the gaming community.

If you have a physical copy of a game you OWN that copy, if you get a downloadable title you own it for as long as your evil overlords give you the privilege of owning it.

The reason retro-gaming exists is because people held on to their old carts and they were eventually dumped.  Without physical, unrestricted, media... preservation is doomed.  Heck forget preservation for the masses, PERSONAL preservation is doomed.  I've got a stack of NES carts behind me.  If my NES dies, I can hop on ebay, even 30 years after the fact, by a new console and be back in business.  Heck I can buy a NEW retro-duo and play them that way if for some reason the old hardware would fall off the face of the earth.  You can't do that with the new digital restrictions.   
 

I've never even been in debt before, the reason is because I'm responsible with my money aka I don't waste it to pay to not own a game. 

And people don't seem to get that if you get a physical copy of a game, you get a digital copy as well.... you get off your lazy butt, download a ripping program, usually press a single button and you are done.  Is it legal?  Probably not, but it certainly isn't immoral. 

I run into this argument with digital music as well. People say "but it's more convenient to have it in digital form"  I agree... that's why when I buy a CD the first thing I do is insert it into my computer, it asks me if I want to rip it, and I say "yes"  I then sync my media player (which I'd have to do anyway) and I'm done. 

[SithMaster]

I actually can't believe the new generation of consoles is even using physical media at all. It has got to be because of the "can't keep my life together enough even to manage a debit card" crowd, who seem to heavily prefer consoles.

paige, I mean this in the nicest possible way.  If you are a real gamer and don't prefer physical media, you need to change your mind immediately because your preference is detrimental to the gaming community.

If you have a physical copy of a game you OWN that copy, if you get a downloadable title you own it for as long as your evil overlords give you the privilege of owning it.

The reason retro-gaming exists is because people held on to their old carts and they were eventually dumped.  Without physical, unrestricted, media... preservation is doomed.  Heck forget preservation for the masses, PERSONAL preservation is doomed.  I've got a stack of NES carts behind me.  If my NES dies, I can hop on ebay, even 30 years after the fact, by a new console and be back in business.  Heck I can buy a NEW retro-duo and play them that way if for some reason the old hardware would fall off the face of the earth.  You can't do that with the new digital restrictions.   
 

I've never even been in debt before, the reason is because I'm responsible with my money aka I don't waste it to pay to not own a game. 

And people don't seem to get that if you get a physical copy of a game, you get a digital copy as well.... you get off your lazy butt, download a ripping program, usually press a single button and you are done.  Is it legal?  Probably not, but it certainly isn't immoral. 

I run into this argument with digital music as well. People say "but it's more convenient to have it in digital form"  I agree... that's why when I buy a CD the first thing I do is insert it into my computer, it asks me if I want to rip it, and I say "yes"  I then sync my media player (which I'd have to do anyway) and I'm done.

I agree with your points but one could always copy the game files/music downloaded to a dvd/cd as a backup.  The limiting factor is whether you need to login to a drm-like online service that has sales often to play the games or if the music is in a file format that can only be read by authorized players or something.

Not including a disc drive would hurt them in the long run for several reasons.  People such as myself wouldn't want to waste bandwidth downloading something that would take up what pitiful harddrive space microsoft decides to put in the system.  I could upgrade that harddrive for an inflated cost (unless they use an off the shelf hd that one could acquire and flash firmware to like the 360 allowed) or delete previously downloaded games only to have to redownload later when I want to play them again.  Since these are now media centers not having a disc drive would also mean not being able to watch movies, play music discs, or whatever else hip youngsters use them for.  Yeah publishers could increase profits by going download only when they have no media burning or shipping expenses for however many copies people download but that would only fly if the infrastructure could support all of America downloading CoD69 without the servers collapsing day one.

I'm curious what sort of cut per system sold Sony gets for licensing the blu ray drive now.

[danny_galaga]

I dont support of any of the virtual account games with anything including pc and by the sounds of these it will be console's too.

if they need to be online and do what others stated with a 1 install on your machine only I will never buy a current console again period.

that will totally crush the gaming market in the long run.

I think you are wrong. Like I say, us geriatrics may not like it, but mod cons aren't designed for old coots, but young up and comers. The younger crowd are more comfortable with all these imaginary goods that you and I find anathema. We might not like it, but 60 years ago people just like us were grumbling about the demise of steam trains...

[ChadTower]

I actually can't believe the new generation of consoles is even using physical media at all. It has got to be because of the "can't keep my life together enough even to manage a debit card" crowd, who seem to heavily prefer consoles.

I have always greatly preferred consoles over PC games.  I spend 50 hours a week on a PC in the course of my job.  Why on Earth would I want to go home and sit down at another PC?

[knave]

I have always greatly preferred consoles over PC games.  I spend 50 hours a week on a PC in the course of my job.  Why on Earth would I want to go home and sit down at another PC?

I think this way...until the better interface and controls and easy access to new cool games sucks me back in.

I go through days where I don't want to look at a PC after work but especially since I now play my PC games on my couch all comfy and such I don't find much time for the consoles.

I sure own them all now though...glorified Netflix players...

[lilshawn]

the way I see it, going "discless" and "always on" is going to pave the way for the console manufacturer to one day release a game that is either controversial to a sect of people or have hidden objectionable content and they will kill your game remotely.

of course on the bright side, once we verify with the kinect that the person actually playing the game is underage, they can disable it...keep the little --bags of cream-filled twinkies-- off battlefield and call of duty.

[Vigo]

of course on the bright side, once we verify with the kinect that the person actually playing the game is underage, they can disable it...keep the little --bags of cream-filled twinkies-- off battlefield and call of duty.

As much as I hate being cussed at by a twelve year old, I see that idea as scary. An always on, online system with a mandatory identifying camera and voice recognizing microphone pointed at you is just too 1984 for my taste. Even if M$ can manage to keep anyone from hacking these and remotely spying on our living rooms, I think the biometric data it captures would be harder to keep others from getting a hold of. At first, they will justify it as surveying the demographic players of their game, but who knows who our data will be sold off to over time.

[ChadTower]

There's no way that would end up in anything other than a major class action litigation.

[lilshawn]

There's no way that would end up in anything other than a major class action litigation.

FREE XBOXONES FOR EVERYBODY!

wait...NO!

[paigeoliver]

I never claimed I really liked the idea of physical media vanishing on consoles. I am merely astonished by the fact that the next generation consoles are still using physical media at all.

However the switch away from physical media in PC games hasn't really bothered me at all. There never seemed to be a big PC game collecting scene in the first place and not having physical media is actually a huge bonus with PC games in some ways. With your physical PC games there isn't much chance of an update after a couple years as the game just isn't on the shelf anymore and isn't making the developer any money, and you certainly aren't going to get updates to 10 year old games to make them run on new operating systems. However with the games sold digitally the game manufacturer has a continual trickle of income from Steam (or whatever) on their old titles, and it can actually be worth their while to stick a programmer on doing an update on an old game that stopped working on the latest OS just to keep that trickle of income coming in.

[SithMaster]

There's no way that would end up in anything other than a major class action litigation.

Due to revised user agreements following the playstation network fiasco you are not allowed to enter into a class action lawsuit against microsoft with a minor exception if that.

[SavannahLion]

the way I see it, going "discless" and "always on" is going to pave the way for the console manufacturer to one day release a game that is either controversial to a sect of people or have hidden objectionable content and they will kill your game remotely.

This is just one of many beefs with this kind of system. A few years ago a developer was caught ripping off another developers game. A rather blatant ripoff. I downloaded that specific game because (not realizing it was a ripoff) it lacked ads.  Besides the obvious copyright issues here, the game was simply yanked right off my system one the "issue" was discovered. I have a backup copy somewhere but I haven't bothered with sideloading it. The problem was I didn't get a warning. No message. Nothing. One day it just disappeared.

A similar event occurred about a year later when another developer did the same thing but inserted trojans. They were forcefully yanked from people. This time around I didn't get the pirated copies, but the point is this is a feature I'm not overly fond of but recognize the value if the company uses it within reason.

Companies as large as Microsoft and Sony will continue pushing DRM limits. What if both companies release a new console and on those consoles they re-release AAA titles? Now what if they decide to disable those AAA titles on  the classics? (Disney does this with their films. Wait for one of their classics to be rereleased in the theater then try to find a copy in the stores) Disabling a title due to offensive material or some hidden sex scene is just the tip of the iceberg.  Nearly everyone is hitting excellent valid points but I think we're just imagining small potatoes. In less than ten... five? years time the gaming landscape is going to be unrecognizable and I don't think it's going to be good in the long run. This isn't bitching about steam engines going away this is more like the DOT banning the sale of every vehicle, period. But the DOT will allow you to rent your vehicles. 

I'm sure there will be all sorts of counter arguments to that analogy but they're missing the point. I own my vehicles and I happily pay all the maintenance costs because I can do what I want when I want. If I rent I dont have to pay maintenance costs but I'm at the mercy of the will of the companies. Open bed pickups get banned no more rentals..... but since I own it,  I and every truck owner happily thumb our noses.

I and everyone else recognize the advantages and disadvantages of one over the other and that is why the market supports both. But Sony and Microsoft only see $$ and whatever means to maximize those profits even if it means alienating the owners.

[lilshawn]

FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU, requirements to buy more licences if you have too many people watching a movie?

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220120278904%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20120278904&RS=DN/20120278904

A content presentation system and method allowing content providers to regulate the presentation of content on a per-user-view basis. Content is distributed an associated license option on the number of individual consumers or viewers allowed to consume the content. Consumers are presented with a content selection and a choice of licenses allowing consumption of the content. The users consuming the content on a display device are monitored so that if the number of user-views licensed is exceeded, remedial action may be taken.

neighbor kids come over for a movie night...



since this thing "plays" TV, want to watch the football game with your buds?



they also don't specify what "content" is therefore it seems to reason, that if you haven't purchased a game... and you go to your friends house to try it out...



This sounds just a little too perfect for kinect2 system here, what with it's facial recognition tech and all. But even if it's not implemented, it's there and available for them to drop in without notice. What kind of communist corporate pleasing BS is this? It seems the masters of deception will always mix truth with BS to make it more palatable. I'm f'n done.

[Dervacumen]

I have historically preferred physical media, but over the past 5 years or so I'm beginning to embrace digital.  It's a tough tradeoff.  If I kept physical copies of every game I've played I'd have to buy a storage unit and build an auto-fetching robot linked to my custom database.  Same with books.  I overwhelmingly prefer them for fiction, but non-fiction?  Not so much.  The older I get the more stuff I have to lug around with me.  If I can remove four cubic feet of clutter from my office by embracing digital I'm okay with it.
I'll never buy another console if this trend continues.  I still love my Wii, but I game primarily on my PC.

[SavannahLion]

It's crazy but many of my friends have quit the whole superbowl party ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. We realized none of actually cared to watch football, we all were there for the excessive amounts of food.

But I can see how that would put a huge kink in our usual viewing habits. Not just in sports but in whole swaths of private viewing. With the "six strikes" law in full effect there is going to be a growing number of families dumping their entertainment centers. Could this have the unintended consequence that we'll reverse the trend of absolute stupidity rife in our society?

[lilshawn]

I'm going back to VHS and audio tape. at least they can't track me that way.

[/TINFOILHAT]

[hypernova]

FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU, requirements to buy more licences if you have too many people watching a movie?

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220120278904%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20120278904&RS=DN/20120278904

A content presentation system and method allowing content providers to regulate the presentation of content on a per-user-view basis. Content is distributed an associated license option on the number of individual consumers or viewers allowed to consume the content. Consumers are presented with a content selection and a choice of licenses allowing consumption of the content. The users consuming the content on a display device are monitored so that if the number of user-views licensed is exceeded, remedial action may be taken.

neighbor kids come over for a movie night...

This sounds just a little too perfect for kinect2 system here, what with it's facial recognition tech and all. But even if it's not implemented, it's there and available for them to drop in without notice. What kind of communist corporate pleasing BS is this? It seems the masters of deception will always mix truth with BS to make it more palatable. I'm f'n done.

Easily circumvented.  You can stay on the sofa.  I'll hide behind the sofa, only peeking the top of my head over the back.  Savannah can stand where the lamp is and put the shade on his head, as if he were drunk.  We can probably make it think he's a lamp!  One person on each side of the TV so they're practically viewing it at a 180 degree angle.  Throw in a bunch of mirrors, and we can relay the image to other areas of the room for more people.

See how easy that was? 

[JDFan]

Sure it might be easily circumvented by why should there be the need to circumvent it in the first place ! -- Until consumers wise up and stop supporting companies that try to force this kind of thing on us they'll keep coming p with more and more of this stupid DRM stuff -- Let your money talk and stop buying the things and if enough people do the same maybe they'll reconsider things.

[ChadTower]

There's no way that would end up in anything other than a major class action litigation.

Due to revised user agreements following the playstation network fiasco you are not allowed to enter into a class action lawsuit against microsoft with a minor exception if that.

Sure you can.  Just don't accept the user agreement before entering the litigation.  Only people who voluntarily accept those terms can be excluded.

[lilshawn]

There's no way that would end up in anything other than a major class action litigation.

Due to revised user agreements following the playstation network fiasco you are not allowed to enter into a class action lawsuit against microsoft with a minor exception if that.

Sure you can.  Just don't accept the user agreement before entering the litigation.  Only people who voluntarily accept those terms can be excluded.

except "by opening the package you agree to the terms and services". how can one agree to a contract they cannot read? Better yet how can one agree to a contract if no one can verify it actually took place. Seems every other contract must be signed, and in some cases witnessed so it can be verified that you do in fact agree to the contact.

it's like the cartoons and television shows where they get a signature, then slide a new will out of the envelope.

[ChadTower]

The existence of text on the package does not guarantee it will stand up to a court challenge.  That's exactly the type of question that a judge would probably look at the physical packaging and be like "---smurfette---, please, this is stupid" and disregard.

[lilshawn]

The existence of text on the package does not guarantee it will stand up to a court challenge.  That's exactly the type of question that a judge would probably look at the physical packaging and be like "---smurfette---, please, this is stupid" and disregard.

yes, it's stupid...yet...there it is. 

makes me wonder sometimes.

[amendonz]

As ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- as some of this stuff looks, at least its not anywhere near as ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- as the Wii U is. 

[lilshawn]

As ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- as some of this stuff looks, at least its not anywhere as ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- as the Wii U is. 

i take it you are prepared to defend that statement?

i see less wrong with the wii-u than the xbox.

[amendonz]

For all its downfalls and problems its still going to have all (most) the best games. Think about stuff like elder scrolls, GTA, dam any new potentially awesome ips that will not make it to Wii U. I'm not sure what people really expect these days and while I agree the presentation sucked but its still most likely going to make for a pretty sweet gaming machine.

[Singapura]

I like to play older games or else I wouldn't be on this forum. Does anyone realize that with the continuing move towards internet verification, cloud based storage and online play there won't be any games preserved in the near future? As soon as less people play, companies will drop support and the game will be dead. The golden age of video games will be over as soon as you can only play the newest games,  supported on the newest consoles. You can already see the trend in XBox One and PS4. They claim to support used games but when they shut down the verification servers there won"t be any way to play the game legally.

[SithMaster]

The existence of text on the package does not guarantee it will stand up to a court challenge.  That's exactly the type of question that a judge would probably look at the physical packaging and be like "---smurfette---, please, this is stupid" and disregard.

I'm of the opinion that most judges are biased and bribed in most cases.  The real question is can anything it record be admissible as evidence?

[SavannahLion]

There's no way that would end up in anything other than a major class action litigation.

Due to revised user agreements following the playstation network fiasco you are not allowed to enter into a class action lawsuit against microsoft with a minor exception if that.

Sure you can.  Just don't accept the user agreement before entering the litigation.  Only people who voluntarily accept those terms can be excluded.

except "by opening the package you agree to the terms and services". how can one agree to a contract they cannot read? Better yet how can one agree to a contract if no one can verify it actually took place. Seems every other contract must be signed, and in some cases witnessed so it can be verified that you do in fact agree to the contact.

it's like the cartoons and television shows where they get a signature, then slide a new will out of the envelope.

The "you agree by opening" has already been tried, tested and thrown out of court in California. You can't coerce anyone to agree to anything that the consumer can't read prior to agreeing. IIRC the first suit was against CompUSA and they lost miserably.

[lilshawn]

Think about stuff like elder scrolls, GTA, dam any new potentially awesome ips that will not make it to Wii U.

Think about stuff like elder scrolls, GTA, dam any new potentially awesome ips that will not make it to Wii U.

chances are, if you are purchasing a wii-u, you aren't particularly interested in these type of games. You are on the lookout for mariocart, zelda ,and super mario...not god of war.

There's no way that would end up in anything other than a major class action litigation.

Due to revised user agreements following the playstation network fiasco you are not allowed to enter into a class action lawsuit against microsoft with a minor exception if that.

Sure you can.  Just don't accept the user agreement before entering the litigation.  Only people who voluntarily accept those terms can be excluded.

except "by opening the package you agree to the terms and services". how can one agree to a contract they cannot read? Better yet how can one agree to a contract if no one can verify it actually took place. Seems every other contract must be signed, and in some cases witnessed so it can be verified that you do in fact agree to the contact.

it's like the cartoons and television shows where they get a signature, then slide a new will out of the envelope.

The "you agree by opening" has already been tried, tested and thrown out of court in California. You can't coerce anyone to agree to anything that the consumer can't read prior to agreeing. IIRC the first suit was against CompUSA and they lost miserably.

in theory if you opened the system and found a peper TOS or set it up and turn it on and are confronted by a TOS that you must agree to at boot... you can box it up and return it no questions asked.

TOS's are full of BS anyways. things like they can cut you off without notice...you can't open or change the system (because you don't own anything anymore acording to the TOS)... you can't sue them...they can change the terms anytime they like. Companies do all sorts of shady ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, especially when it comes down to getting money.

i guess if it really comes down to it, you could buy an xbox, open the machine and modify it with your own software and not violate the TOS since you did not agree to it.

how about used machines? I was not presented with a TOS. Does that mean I'm exempt for it's limitations?

[RandyT]

how about used machines? I was not presented with a TOS. Does that mean I'm exempt for it's limitations?

IANAL, but "perhaps".  On the flip side, however, without agreeing to their TOS, they also likely do not have any responsibility to you to do anything which makes that machine function.  If everything it does is tied to a remote "cloud" server, it will be a boat anchor without that support.  Also, if any use of the used machine is seen to infringe on an authors ability to control "presentation" of their copyrighted works, the DMCA kicks in to cover that, and they probably even have the right to take corrective action.  In the end, you are left with a machine which is not more capable than a good PC, so you might as well skip the BS and just go that route.

[lilshawn]

i suppose you are right, one could only hope that before they shut down the servers for good, they would release a system update that would fix?break? the system so it dodn't need to verify all the time.

[JDFan]

i suppose you are right, one could only hope that before they shut down the servers for good, they would release a system update that would fix?break? the system so it dodn't need to verify all the time.

Unfortunately doing that costs $ and if the company is shutting down chances are they aren't gonna spend that kind of $ for something they aren't gonna be around to profit from, plus they tend to not give you much warning when shutting down since they want to get sales up to the final minutes (most times even the employees paid to keep things going do not know until the switch is turned off) So chances are that isn't gonna happen !

[GibsonRiddler]

This should sum up the XboxOne

[lilshawn]

flip flop flip flop. "you can't just turn off DRM bla bla bla" then turns it off. 

still not interested, although it seems all the fanboys are now splacking in anticipation now that the DRM has been "turned off"  you wait...next year they will flick it back on and EVERYONE will cry butthurt.

traitors. you only get one chance. now you want us to wash our hands in your dirty water. no thank you.

[hypernova]

still not interested, although it seems all the fanboys are now splacking in anticipation now that the DRM has been "turned off"  you wait...next year they will flick it back on and EVERYONE will cry butthurt.

You mean like Sony did with the Linux availability at the beginning of the PS3's life?  Granted, it only pissed off a few people, but they still did it.

It certainly makes the decision harder for the next gen if and when I get one, but I think IP may play a role.  I was leaning PS4 before, still am.  But I have a loooooong time before I consider a new one.

[lilshawn]

i'll revisit the next gen consoles next year...or later. basically when i'm satisfied they are stable in all the farting around they will do with them...and we know what their plans for feeding you BS are.

until then, i'm quite happy with my master race PC for gaming.