newbie question about plywood and laminate

[walker_tr9]

Hello everyone.

I have read the St. Clair book, and generally know what I want to do.  I want an arcade cabinet with plywood and laminate.  The monitor will be LCD, so not much weight there.  I have some minor experience with wood-working. Some wood projects I have built: magazine bookshelf, laundry cart, work-bench kit, and simple end-table.

My questions are:

1. Can I get away with 5/8" plywood (it seems I can from reading some other posts...)?

2. Do I have to laminate both sides of the wood?  I read some posts implying that, but I don't see why.

3. Do I need to sand the plywood down super smooth for the laminate?  I would rather get cheap plywood, but don't want to spend an excessive amount of time sanding it.

4. Do I need to worry about the warping of the plywood?  Some of these big plywood sheets can be really warped.  Obviously no warping is best, but it may be hard find the "perfect" plywood.

Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.  Or links to other posts that answer these questions.

[wp34]

Welcome to the forum!

I used 5/8 MDF on my build. 

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=116519.0

There are pros and cons to using MDF over plywood.  I chose MDF partially so I would not have to worry about your questions 3&4.

You only need to laminate the insides if you want your reveal to be laminated.  I ended up laminating both sides with full sheets but in hindsight I would suggest doing what Epyx did here using scraps to laminate the inside.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=96465.msg1026504#msg1026504

I'm glad I laminated because I hate to paint.  The only thing is if you mess up it is not as easy to repair.

If you do go with 5/8 and laminate T-molding.com has 11/16 T-molding that will fit just right without any trimming.  You can only get it in white or black though.

Good luck with your build.

[walker_tr9]

ok, thanks.  I would like to use plywood since it is lighter, but I will think on it.

What did you mean by "You only need to laminate the insides if you want your reveal to be laminated."?  What is a "reveal"?  Are you talking about if you have big holes (like on your cabinet), and people might look inside?

[wp34]

Sorry about that.  In this case when I said reveal I meant the part of the side panel that you can see from the outside.  When you put your cabinet together at least part of the inside of the side panels will be seen.

If you look at the picture below that is the part I marked in red. 



You really only need to laminate that part.  I chose to laminate the whole inside of the panel so that the part that is revealed would be laminated.  You could also paint it.

[walker_tr9]

I see.  Well how do I attach the various panels with screws when there is laminate in the way?  Just drill through and screw as usual?   I guess I should look at those links you stated above.

[kahlid74]

The primary reason we use MDF is because it doesn't chip and routes very well.  Cheap plywood will typically chip/splinter on cutting and routing.  Plywood is stronger than MDF so 5/8 is fine versus 3/4.  I would even argue that 5/8 MDF is fine depending on what you have inside of it.

I don't laminate the inside because I just use Spray paint on the areas that might reveal.  If you laminate it'd look super good so there's lots of reasons to do both sides if you can see both sides.

If you're hell bent on Plywood I would look to a good Sanded plywood or get sanded oak/pine plywood.  They are super nice finished, route very well and are super strong.  They also cost a lot more too =p.

[walker_tr9]

Thanks for the advice.  I am hell-bent on plywood.  Weight matters to me.  Also time matters to me, and I think laminating is faster than trying to paint/sand over and over.

Are there any good laminating arcade cabinet tutorials, other than those links above?

[Sparkolicious]

BC sanded available at the depot $32.97 a sheet in NOLA.  I built 3 cabs with it a few years ago, and I have laminated it for other projects. 

[Woodshop Flunky]

Thanks for the advice.  I am hell-bent on plywood.  Weight matters to me.  Also time matters to me, and I think laminating is faster than trying to paint/sand over and over.

Are there any good laminating arcade cabinet tutorials, other than those links above?

I was hellbent on plywood also... but I may use MDF on my upcoming build.

My cab was a mini so I used 1/2 inch plywood.  But the stuff I used was really nice Baltic Birch (lots of plys and nearly no voids).  I only slung a 17" CRT monitor, but I know the thing is built like a tank... and could have handled more weight.

When it came to screwing the thing together, I only laminated the inside first.  Then, I drilled through from the outside to screw everything together.  Once that was done, I applied laminate to the outsides... nicely covering the screws.

You don't strictly have to laminate the outside, but I wanted really good adhesion from my side art.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=111377.0

[walker_tr9]

oh duh of course.  That makes sense to laminate the insides first.   Man that is a spiffy looking cabinet.  The laminate makes it look super professional.

I have another question.  I'm thinking of just doing the Project Arcade 2 in the book, but I want to attach the top a little differently.  Instead of screwing it together permanently, I wanted to use 3 *big* bolts on either side.  Yes, they would be visible, but I'm thinking with the right side art it could work.  The reason I want to do that is to make it easy to disassemble into two pieces, with each piece being packed in a box if I need to move it.

Have people done something like this?  Is this safe?  Will 3 big-ass bolts be enough?

[kahlid74]

The idea for a "break apart" cabinet aren't new but perhaps your method for a bolt type fixture is.  The biggest thing for any break apart furniture is that you need to be conscious of it when moving it.  I would also say to make sure the weight of the upper part isn't supported by said bolts but only secured by them.

[walker_tr9]

Good point.  I was thinking of having the "monitor" shelf be the lower part of the upper section, as opposed to the upper part of the lower section (the current Project Arcade 2 design).  Note I am only going to use an LCD monitor, so this should be ok.  I'm not completely sure how I will assemble it and make sure everything is square.

[Unstupid]

If you want to save yourself a lot of trouble go down to your local plywood store (NOT Hone Depot/Lowes) a store that specalizes in pluwood, and buy some pre-laminated plywood.  Or better yet ask them if they have what some places call combi-core.  It is basically plywood then a layer of MDF then the laminate.  They put a layer of MDF in between the laminate and plywood to get a nice flat surface for the laminate to attach.  that way any imperfections in the plywood dont carry through to the laminate.  It's a little more $ than the cost of a sheet of plywood and a couple sheets of laminate the the couple extra dollars will be well sepnt!  This is what I was used on my neo bartop:

[GregD]

The combicore is cool stuff but hard to find.  Plus the laminate is a melamime laminate and it chips pretty easy.  That said, it is what I would use in a bartop build.

[walker_tr9]

That plywood chunk you have there is pretty thick.  Do they come thinner?     Also, the laminate does not look to thick itself.  Do they have different options?

Are plywood stores common?  84 Lumber?

[GregD]

Plywood specialty stores are out there and some large lumber yards or hardwood suppliers do a good job of stocking furniture grade and composite plywoods.  Google is your friend.

[walker_tr9]

This is with regards to my bolt-type fixture idea for attaching/securing the top and bottom of the cabinet (see earlier comment).  When I drill the holes for these bolts to go through, is there some kind of plastic "sleeve" or insert I can buy to put into the hole?  That way the bolts won't rub against the plywood.  Does this exist?

[Woodshop Flunky]

This is with regards to my bolt-type fixture idea for attaching/securing the top and bottom of the cabinet (see earlier comment).  When I drill the holes for these bolts to go through, is there some kind of plastic "sleeve" or insert I can buy to put into the hole?  That way the bolts won't rub against the plywood.  Does this exist?

I've never seen anything like what you describe.  If you put a bolt through plywood... there isn't going to be any rubbing.  It'd be interesting to see a sketch of your design... I'm having a hard time imagining it.

[walker_tr9]

Here is an image that I took from saint's book.  Basically, instead of using 6 screws (on one side) to attach the upper half to the bottom, just drill straight through both the top and bottom pieces (where I have marked in green; 3 places) and secure the two pieces by putting a very large bolt through each hole with a hex nut on the other side.  Obviously, I would probably change the design of the cabinet somewhat to accommodate this.  kahlid74 made a comment that this should not support the weight; just secure it.

Anyway, I was thinking that the plywood could splinter (thru the hole) and that is why I asked about the "sleeve" to protect it.  Maybe it is not necessary.  The reason I want to do this is to have something that easy to disassemble (even if I probably won't need to do it).  I think I can blend the bolts in with the right artwork.

[Woodshop Flunky]

Got it, you're going to have 3 clearance holes on each side, with 3 bolts.  Once you tighten them down, they are going to be very secure... and shouldn't wiggle at all.  You won't have any issues with splintering.

[kahlid74]

Yeah that should be fine but you'll have the bolts showing on the outside.  The other Idea you can use is if you plan to laminate the sides, you can use a carriage bolt.  It would sink into the outside wood and then you could tighten from the inside without needing access to the outside so you could "cover" it with your laminate.  It would stick out a little bit but not too far.

[walker_tr9]

I think I see what you mean, but do you have a pic of this?  So I would (sort of) countersink the bolt on the outside, and then pop some black plastic covers over them?  The bolts cannot be permanent because then I couldn't get the top on.

If I do end up showing the bolts, then my plan was to have them be oversized and shiny and have them fit with the artwork.

[kahlid74]

The carriage bolt has a square on it, so it's pseudo flat but the square gets pulled into the wood and prevents the bolt from slipping so you only have to tighten it from one side.  They will strip over time in wood so don't tighten it "too" much but I've had great luck with them so far in Plywood and MDF.

http://www.menards.com/main/tools-hardware/builders-hardware/gate/accessories/5-16x5-carriage-bolt/p-1475404.htm

[walker_tr9]

Can I make some kind of metal insert (into the wood) for the square bit to go into?  So the wood would be protected?

[kahlid74]

Can I make some kind of metal insert (into the wood) for the square bit to go into?  So the wood would be protected?

Probably.  Look towards threaded inserts.  They are pretty big and usually are screwed in with an alan wrench giving you the angles needed to lock in a carriage bolt.  BEFORE you do though you need to experiment on another piece of wood.  Something that is scrap to see if it works as you expect it to.

[walker_tr9]

I have another question, or actually just soliciting comments.  I'm thinking of doing another modification to this design (see pic).  The image is taken from Saint's book.  I like the look of it, but since I am going to use an LCD monitor it's too deep.  So I was thinking of "cutting" the design off in the back; that's what the black line is for.

Of course, I will have to do other modifications.  I'm not literally going to chop it off.  One advantage here is that it should be easier to line things up (make 'em square) by lying the rear of the cabinet flat on the floor.  The original project arcade 2 design is kind of a pain in that respect.

So is this going to look dumb?  Will it be too thin?  I've seen at least one other thinnish design, at looked fine to me.

[Unstupid]

I have another question, or actually just soliciting comments.  I'm thinking of doing another modification to this design (see pic).  The image is taken from Saint's book.  I like the look of it, but since I am going to use an LCD monitor it's too deep.  So I was thinking of "cutting" the design off in the back; that's what the black line is for.

Of course, I will have to do other modifications.  I'm not literally going to chop it off.  One advantage here is that it should be easier to line things up (make 'em square) by lying the rear of the cabinet flat on the floor.  The original project arcade 2 design is kind of a pain in that respect.

So is this going to look dumb?  Will it be too thin?  I've seen at least one other thinnish design, at looked fine to me.

It's been done before: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=115187.0

[walker_tr9]

hmmm... That's not quite what I was going for.  Do you mean that guy thinned the design?  I meant that I would have a flush edge the entire length of the back, except for the very top.  The link you gave still has the piece jutting out from the bottom.  I guess my pic is not clear.

[kahlid74]

If you cut that design in half you may have a very serious problem with not enough depth to balance.  The idea being you've got a separate top piece with a thin piece it's "teetering" on.  Get kind of where I'm coming from?  You may want a 2x4 coming up from the bottom on the inside and then maybe a bolt 1/2 to 2/3 of the way up the inside of the top piece like a stabilizer.  That way you balance in more than just the edge it teeters on.

[walker_tr9]

I see what you are saying (thanks for the graphic).  You are basically suggesting a way to make the top piece more rigidly attached to the bottom.  My plan (which I didn't make clear before) was to put a lower shelf into the upper section that is horizontal with the floor.   In the project arcade 2 design, this shelf was part of the lower section and it was not horizontal with the floor.  So, I would then set the upper section on top of the lower section, with the lower shelf resting on top of the lower section.  So the shelf would be supporting the upper section.  Of course, this lower shelf should be sturdy.  I would then secure it with 3 bolts (discussed previously) on each side.

Are you worried that the upper section will tip and tear off?  That doesn't seem possible.  One thing that may be a concern is that the center of mass of the cabinet (fully assembled) might be too close to the rear, so the whole thing might teeter and fall back.  But in that case, I'm not sure how those 2x4's you suggested would prevent that.

I think I have probably misunderstood your comment.  I will wait for the response.

[kahlid74]

Well the challenge with any slimmer cabinet is the fact that they can tip, front or back, so that's always something to watch out for.  My comment comes out of a situation where the cabinet is angled or being pushed/pulled.  Do this, take a full length pencil and stand it on it's eraser on the counter.  Hold on the the eraser/metal only.  With your other hand push the top of the pencil towards the desk in either direction.  Pretty easy right?  You've got an object whose weight is spread out pretty generally only being held on at the very bottom.  My thoughts sing the 2x4 or equivalent were to secure the top piece's middle to the bottom piece by a rigid stand type piece.

This prevents the top from "snapping" off if you ever tilted it.  If you're on perfectly flat ground the top piece sits, I get that but if you move the machine and you're only bolted on the very bottom think of the torque on those bottom bolts.  A lot of movement at the top and only those little bolts on the bottom holding it.  Will it hold it?  I think you'll be fine, but by slimming the cabinet, the surface to which the top is resting on the bottom is much smaller but the top is equally as tall.

Does that make sense?

[walker_tr9]

OK, I see.  I was gonna use some big bolts, but maybe I am under estimating the potential top torque.  It would certainly be more secure to have those 2x4s there.

Doesn't the original Project Arcade 2 design have this issue?  I mean if you push on the top, while holding the bottom, then couldn't you get it to snap off?  And that design only has some dinky screws holding it on, although there are 6 screws per side.  in fact, that design does not even have the top piece resting on a shelf.  The sides are only screwed in (if I remember right).  Moreover, even though it is a deeper design, it doesn't have more area to rest on.

Let me think about this more, although more comments would be welcome.

[kahlid74]

Good points.  I've seen the design but I'm not too familiar with it.  I think when you're dealing with more surface area the stability increases.  That's why my thought is if you slim it down, your surface area where you're holding becomes similar to that of the pencil analogy.  If you're strongly considering it try making a mockup in a small scale with wood or a full scale with cardboard.

[walker_tr9]

Well, given what you just said, I have not actually reduced the surface area of contact between the top and bottom sections relative to the original Project Arcade 2 design.  This is because the part that I am cutting off was just sticking out the back; it wasn't actually supporting anything.

However, your comment about the 2x4 up the side has made me think that maybe I can attach the top and bottom using some kind of bracket contraption *on the inside*.  Then there would be no bolts sticking out.  I'm not totally sure how to do it, but I should be able to take advantage of the shelf.  Perhaps bolt the top section to the bottom (on the inside) with some bracket attached to the shelf or something.  I'll have to think more.

[alfonzotan]

Late to the party here, but figured I'd toss in my $0.02:

My questions are:

1. Can I get away with 5/8" plywood (it seems I can from reading some other posts...)?

Sure.  5/8" B/C ply worked fine for me.  Plenty sturdy enough, moreso with a couple of 2x4 bracings and a 2x4-construction base.

2. Do I have to laminate both sides of the wood?  I read some posts implying that, but I don't see why.

Nope.  Some do because they like it, or because the additional layer helps even out the width for their t-molding, but I didn't bother.

3. Do I need to sand the plywood down super smooth for the laminate?  I would rather get cheap plywood, but don't want to spend an excessive amount of time sanding it.

Not at all.  I used the rough "C" side of the plywood as my pre-laminate exterior, and only gave it a desultory pass with the pad sander before applying the glue.  I also bolted everything together from the outside with rough countersink holes, and didn't bother filling those in with wood putty.  The laminated surfaces turned out completely flat and smooth, I doubt I even needed to do that minimal level of sanding.

4. Do I need to worry about the warping of the plywood?  Some of these big plywood sheets can be really warped.  Obviously no warping is best, but it may be hard find the "perfect" plywood.

Any suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.  Or links to other posts that answer these questions.

Yeah, it's a pain to find flat sheets, but it's worth the hassle.  Dig through until you get the flattest sheets you can find, you'll be glad you did later.

[walker_tr9]

Thanks for the tips.  Your cab looks great.

But it seems rather thin.  16" base?  Do you have any trouble with tipping over?

[alfonzotan]

Thanks for the tips.  Your cab looks great.

But it seems rather thin.  16" base?  Do you have any trouble with tipping over?

Nope.  I was worried about that myself when I was planning the cab, but it turned out to be quite stable.  Even with the overhang from the large control panel, it stays happily upright.

Disclaimer:  my nephews haven't gotten their destructive little 10- and 7-year-old hands on it yet... I guess that will be the true acid test.  But I haven't had any tipping-over problems at all.

Thanks for the kind words...