Check out this $35 PC!?!?!

[Howard_Casto]

It would be good for robots as well with all the i/o pins. 

Maybe I'll finally get around to building that fully working K-9. 

[Samstag]

Compiling xmame .106 on the Rasberry Pi

Apparently you can give the board a virtual test drive while you wait for the real thing to arrive.

[Howard_Casto]

So you are telling me that I can try my hand at development for the PI without having to buy one?

Brilliant!

When I'm bored I'll look into this and see if I can modify mame a little to hook the output system directly to the PI pins.  Perhaps the input system as well.  It would be pretty cool to just hook a jamma slot to those pins and be good to go.

This line from that blog bothers me a little though:  "on my laptop this takes about 6hrs to compile"  Uggh man, I don't have that kind of time.

[Samstag]

It's because he's compiling on the virtual Pi, which doesn't make much sense.  There's a PC-based development toolchain that would compile it much faster.

[kahlid74]

It's entirely possible that developer may not realize that or he may want as close to the source as possible whereby compiling on the Virtual Pi gives him the idea of 100% compatibility.

At the end of the day, until we get our hands on these little guys anything may or may not be possible with them.  Tentative date of mid April for mine.  F yes.

[Howard_Casto]

It's entirely possible that developer may not realize that or he may want as close to the source as possible whereby compiling on the Virtual Pi gives him the idea of 100% compatibility.

Well no, that's still kind of crazy.  Let's say I'm writing an app for my vizo tv... I don't compile it on my tv, because it's a cruddy tv, I compile it on a pc poweful enough to compile.

[Justin Z]

So you couldn't just start the compile as you're heading to bed and let it run overnight?

[Grasshopper]

I've been disappointed by the recent price hike, but overall I'm still pretty excited about this product. It has the potential to be the type of open platform that I'd hoped Android based devices would be when they first appeared a few years ago. Unfortunately, so far Android has been a huge disappointment for me. Not the actual interface I hasten to add (which is just as slick as iOS IMHO) but the way in which the OS is being delivered to consumers. Whether by accident or design, Google and the Android device manufacturers have so far managed to neutralise most the the benefits that are supposed to come from using open source software. Android just isn't open enough for my taste. Most of the manufacturers seem to be riding roughshod over the spirit, and in some cases, the actual letter of the GPL, and getting away with it. There is a disturbing tendency for them to release source code either very late when the version of Android is already obsolete, or not at all.

There is also a lot of tivoisation going on, which is even more obnoxious. Admittedly, it's incredibly easy to root/jailbreak most Android devices, but the point is you shouldn't have to. I'm tired of having to fight manufacturers to gain full control of devices that I've spent my hard earned cash on.  And even when the device has been rooted you face the potential problem of unannounced/undocumented changes to the hardware which can cause the device to be bricked if you flash the wrong firmware version on to it.

I think people are getting a little defensive over this device.  When it was first announced I was super excited, but that was several years ago.  Now you can buy a tablet with the exact same specs minus the i/o pins (which admittedly are cool) and with the added benefit of having a nice touchscreen.  The price of tablets are coming down dramatically as well.  You can get one with similar specs for under 100 bucks now. 

If you sought out the very cheapest no name brand, shipped directly from China, tablet you could find, and factor in the cost of the battery and touchscreen then you  *might* end up with a product that's slightly better value for money than the Raspberry Pi, but it would be a stretch. However, to focus solely on price is to miss the point. What really makes the Raspberry Pi unique is the philosophy that underpins it. It's been deliberately designed to be easily and safely hackable. Because the entire OS is stored on a standard removable SD card it will be impossible to brick. If something goes wrong then you'll just need to copy a new disk image onto the card and you'll be good to go.

If it takes off in schools, which was the original intention, then it has the potential to be a game changer. And god knows we need a game change. There has been a disturbing tendency in recent years for manufacturers to attempt to lock down their computing devices, and it's done mostly for self-serving anti-competitive reasons. If Microsoft gets its way, then even desktop PCs will one day only be able to run digitally signed operating systems chosen by the manufacturer (i.e. Windows).

[SavannahLion]

If it takes off in schools, which was the original intention, then it has the potential to be a game changer. And god knows we need a game change. There has been a disturbing tendency in recent years for manufacturers to attempt to lock down their computing devices, and it's done mostly for self-serving anti-competitive reasons. If Microsoft gets its way, then even desktop PCs will one day only be able to run digitally signed operating systems chosen by the manufacturer (i.e. Windows).

Wasn't that the intent of OLPC?

[Howard_Casto]

Sounds like rampant speculation Grasshopper.  I heard the same end of the world speech in regards to Microsoft all the way in 1998.... needless to say you can still install any OS you want on a computer, but why would you want to?  For desktop use windows is the best or at the very least the most widely supported.

I agree about android, but tablet manufacturers are in a tight space.  You've got china, who actually manufactuers these things, ready to churn out a knock-off the next day.  The only thing preventing them from doing that is the source code.  It's one of the reasons linux never really caught on at the consumer level actually....  why invest time and money adding stuff to the OS when your competator has full access to your source and they can ripoff your features and sell their product at a lower price?

But all that stuff is debatable, your point is a little off though.  At the beginning you say that it isn't about the money and then close by saying that it is about the school programs.  Trust me, if it's about the school programs then it IS about the money.  The reason I brought up tablets as an example is because the pi SEEMS cheaper but it really isn't.  Now maybe for a robotics class it might be useful but for everything else, not entirely practical.

Ok you've got your 35 dollar ...err scratch that 65 dollar PI
It's going to need:

case  = 5.00
Keyboard = 10.00
Mouse = 8.00
SD card = 20.00
Monitor = 200.00

For a grand total of around 308 bucks... probably more if you factor in shipping costs and the like.

Now you might say "But isn't a traditional pc going to need these things as well?"  Yes, that's certainly true.  The problem is at 300 bucks we are in the ball park of the price of a cheap pc bundle, which would include all of those accessories.  Factor that in with the fact that schools can generally arrange a big discount with pc manufacturers and they can buy a full-fledged pc, which has greater functionality for the same price.  Now it won't be a top of the line pc like we are used to, but it would certainly be better than the Pi's specs. 

Now for rich shcools, that have the extra resources I can see this thing being used, but it's intended purpose of putting pcs in the hands of impoverished children isn't going to happen.  They aren't going to be able to justify what they get for the money.

As SL said, the OLPC is a MUCH BETTER solution to that.  The reason it's obvious... it's a full-fledged pc with all the needed accessories. Unfortunately even it's price is around 220 bucks, which is too expensive for what you get.

[Grasshopper]

Sounds like rampant speculation Grasshopper.  I heard the same end of the world speech in regards to Microsoft all the way in 1998.... needless to say you can still install any OS you want on a computer, but why would you want to?  For desktop use windows is the best or at the very least the most widely supported.

In your opinion.

If you do a bit of googling you'll find out that my comments on digital signing are a bit more than mere "rampant speculation" (link).

[Grasshopper]

Ok you've got your 35 dollar ...err scratch that 65 dollar PI
It's going to need:

case  = 5.00
Keyboard = 10.00
Mouse = 8.00
SD card = 20.00
Monitor = 200.00

For a grand total of around 308 bucks... probably more if you factor in shipping costs and the like.

Now you might say "But isn't a traditional pc going to need these things as well?"  Yes, that's certainly true.  The problem is at 300 bucks we are in the ball park of the price of a cheap pc bundle, which would include all of those accessories.  Factor that in with the fact that schools can generally arrange a big discount with pc manufacturers and they can buy a full-fledged pc, which has greater functionality for the same price.  Now it won't be a top of the line pc like we are used to, but it would certainly be better than the Pi's specs. 

Now for rich shcools, that have the extra resources I can see this thing being used, but it's intended purpose of putting pcs in the hands of impoverished children isn't going to happen.  They aren't going to be able to justify what they get for the money.

As SL said, the OLPC is a MUCH BETTER solution to that.  The reason it's obvious... it's a full-fledged pc with all the needed accessories. Unfortunately even it's price is around 220 bucks, which is too expensive for what you get.

Except that most of the people who buy a Raspberry Pi will already own a keyboard, mouse, and monitor (or TV).

Howard, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but from your comments I get the impression you've done very little research into what the Raspberry Pi is all about. It's not intended to perform the same function as the OLPC. Not even close. You're comparing apples and oranges. The OLPC was designed to be a general purpose computer that could be used by kids in the third world who couldn't afford to buy a conventional laptop or desktop PC.

By way of contrast, the Raspberry Pi has been designed primarily as a teaching aid to help kids in the UK to learn how to program. It's a very UK-centric project, and it's definitely not intended to replace a conventional desktop PC or laptop. Schools in the UK already have plenty of those, and most kids in the UK already own at least one computer of their own. The trouble is that it's no longer fashionable to teach kids how to program or understand how computers work on anything other than a superficial level. In IT classes kids are mostly just taught how to use Word, Excel, and a Web Browser. They're certainly useful skills but I'm sure you'd agree that there's far more to computing than that.

The Raspberry Pi is an attempt to introduce today's kids to the type of relatively low level, close to the hardware, programming that was an absolute necessity 30 years ago, but which is now becoming something of a dying art.  Now I realise that you can learn to code on any computer and in any language. But if you're using a modern language and OS, then you're sitting on top of multiple layers of hugely complex libraries, drivers etc. and it's just not the same. You're not going to get the same sense of pride and ownership that you get when you coax a relatively simple computer into life by writing code very close to its hardware.

Who knows. Maybe it won't succeed. Maybe kids today just won't get it, as you clearly don't. Maybe they'll just shrug their shoulders and continue tweeting inane nonsense into their iPhones. But I'm cautiously optimistic that it will inspire at least some of them to explore the rich world of computing that exists beyond the Microsoft and Apple hegemony.

[ark_ader]

It's a very UK-centric project, and it's definitely not intended to replace a conventional desktop PC or laptop. Schools in the UK already have plenty of those, and most kids in the UK already own at least one computer of their own.

Actually Howard, Grasshopper is right on the money with that one.  Raspi is designed for the UK economy, especially when the model A starts shipping.  The majority of the schools here in the UK have refurbished or recycle computers (heck my college has 10 year old PCs and we are going to pay them £9K a year?) and IT is not really taught in the UK schools.  It is more Microsoft Office based and it is hurting the economy as we have a shortage of skilled workers.  The migrant workers schooled in the EU are in short supply.

This device and its sister will revolutionize the academic institutions, and allow children of all ages and backgrounds the ability to learn programming.  I would have preferred that Microsoft just donated Xbox 360s to the schools for the XNA development (this is currently available and successful) as the kids would be more enthused to code for their favorite console (yea), as the PS3 turned off Linux capability (boo).

Besides the UK economy is doing pretty good right now, and there is cash available for this $25 solution, my college is keen on getting these Pi's out to the students.  The $50 Indian Tablet, even though has an upgraded core pales in comparison.   The UK was the leader of software development, and we have more consoles, and buy more games so it seems like an excellent idea to regain the title . 

[Howard_Casto]

I know it's intended implementation but I guess I didn't word that too well. Sorry about that.  It's meant to be a cheap development platform for financially challenged schools yes?.... my statement still stands.
*edit*
Maybe even that is worded too badly..... a "financially challenged" school translates to virtually any school at has budget concerns... aka virtually all of them. 

You are thinking like you are at home.  Yeah we can chuck out a spare monitor kbd and mouse and we probably have a spare monitor lying around, but you just can't do that in a computer lab.  You aren't going to have these things just lying around because you are in a school.... they are going to be used.  If you are suggesting that all 30+ students reach around to the back of a pc, unhook their equiptment to use with the pi and then hook it back up properly when done... well good luck with that.    And by requiring all of those add-ons for it to work you've essentially tethered it to the school when I thought the whole point was that kids could take it home and work on their programming assignments as well.  That's why I meantioned the OLPC... at least it's a complete package.

When a school decides to setup a lab unless it's a very well off school, money is the bottom line, my point is for what you are paying for a typical pi workstation you could setup a pc workstation, which is far more flexible and give you can still do low-level programming on a pc.  I do get the intent, but I don't think the problem in regards to lack of low-level programming is a hardware one, it's a teaching one.  The classes simply need to be offered.

Here's the delimma.  Let's say you are a school and you want to teach such a course.  Does it make more sense to hook all that equipment to a cheap, single purpose pcb or to spend roughly the same amount on a cheap pc bundle, which could be used for other computer classes and/or use existing computer labs and just supply the kids with a cheap avr like a teensy or arduino?

[Howard_Casto]

   The UK was the leader of software development, and we have more consoles, and buy more games so it seems like an excellent idea to regain the title . 

Any relevant point you had was negated by that statement.  I don't mean to pick on you but I would like to know what world you live in where you think that the UK buys more games than the US, or Japan, or heck even South America.  You guys are one step away from being Australia in terms of game sales.  I would also like to know how you think that the UK is a leader in software development when Google, IBM, NOA and Microsoft are based in the US and Sony, Nintendo and NEC and basically everybody else are based in Japan.  The only big, influential UK developer I can think of is Rare, and you know how that turned out.  I actually think M$ bought Rare just to keep them from making games for Nintendo... all they seem to work on now are the cruddy xbox live avatars.

The UK has had plenty of great development studios over the years, but they have mostly been small, independant affairs.  I can't think of any time in the history of computing when the UK was considered to be a leader in software development.  At many points they were very competative, but leaders... not particularly.

Now if you had said France.... yeah UbiSoft is a powerhouse to be sure, but even then their largest branch is in Canada... you know, because all the consumers and programmers are in North America. 


Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight.. sorry, but when I see something like that all the other words you've typed fade into the background.

I'm wondering how this topic got so far of the rails actually.  I keep trying to steer the conversation back to what we are going to do with the Pi and every couple of days somebody wanders in.. ignores my posts and the other on-topic ones and starts drawing the conversation back to it's relevancy... of course I'm going to respond if I don't agree with it, but I think the debate is getting rather pointless.  I sorry I voiced my opinion and it differed from the peanut gallery, I didn't expect everybody and their borther to come out of the woodwork and try to make some point against mine.  But then again, this is the internet, I should have known better.   If people want to talk about potential usage for the device I'm here, otherwise I'm done with this thread.

The above paragraph is going to come out sounding angry..... I'm not at all, I wish I could articulate my feelings a little better.  I'm just a little frustrated how any conversation degrades away from relevancy anymore.  And yes I realize that the above statment about uk developers is exactly the sort of thing that I'm complaining about, so maybe it can't be helped.

[Blanka]

Well, the UK did create the best looking home computer ever: the ZX spectrum. Well, a ZX is a little bad to use in 2012 for general computing tasks. Know what? Mod in another motherboard. What does fit in this sexy small machine? Not much. WAIT... HEY... A RASPBERRY PI FITS IN!. Let the ZX live forever with PI brains and a modern OS. WOOHOO! 

[ark_ader]

   The UK was the leader of software development, and we have more consoles, and buy more games so it seems like an excellent idea to regain the title . 

Any relevant point you had was negated by that statement.  I don't mean to pick on you but I would like to know what world you live in where you think that the UK buys more games than the US, or Japan, or heck even South America.  You guys are one step away from being Australia in terms of game sales.  I would also like to know how you think that the UK is a leader in software development when Google, IBM, NOA and Microsoft are based in the US and Sony, Nintendo and NEC and basically everybody else are based in Japan.  The only big, influential UK developer I can think of is Rare, and you know how that turned out.  I actually think M$ bought Rare just to keep them from making games for Nintendo... all they seem to work on now are the cruddy Xbox live avatars.

The UK has had plenty of great development studios over the years, but they have mostly been small, independent affairs.  I can't think of any time in the history of computing when the UK was considered to be a leader in software development.  At many points they were very competitive, but leaders... not particularly.

Now if you had said France.... yeah UbiSoft is a powerhouse to be sure, but even then their largest branch is in Canada... you know, because all the consumers and programmers are in North America. 


Again, I'm not trying to pick a fight.. sorry, but when I see something like that all the other words you've typed fade into the background.

I'm wondering how this topic got so far of the rails actually.  I keep trying to steer the conversation back to what we are going to do with the Pi and every couple of days somebody wanders in.. ignores my posts and the other on-topic ones and starts drawing the conversation back to it's relevancy... of course I'm going to respond if I don't agree with it, but I think the debate is getting rather pointless.  I sorry I voiced my opinion and it differed from the peanut gallery, I didn't expect everybody and their brother to come out of the woodwork and try to make some point against mine.  But then again, this is the internet, I should have known better.   If people want to talk about potential usage for the device I'm here, otherwise I'm done with this thread.

The above paragraph is going to come out sounding angry..... I'm not at all, I wish I could articulate my feelings a little better.  I'm just a little frustrated how any conversation degrades away from relevancy anymore.  And yes I realize that the above statement about UK developers is exactly the sort of thing that I'm complaining about, so maybe it can't be helped.

Pick away.  Heck I pick on you enough.    I'll do a Shmokes and fix your spelling, While I retort.

You are referring to today's gaming market.  I was referring to yesterdays gaming market.  We do have some strides (when I say we I am half British so..) like this and we do have a large service market.  Game wise, like I typed earlier, is lacking.  When we have the up and coming (not this one or maybe not even the next) generation that have the skills, then we will be the gaming mecca as it once was.  Twenty years ago I worked at software ect, right after I left the UK and the gaming market was dominated by UK gaming houses.  The software on the shelves were mainly from the UK, especially the Amiga and the CBM 64.  Apple was American, but the Atari XE had a good run in the UK, as did the Atari ST.  It is all inside my xbox1 now and like that comment moot.

You can look at today and say anything you want, but do not underestimate the UK when it comes to programming games, the companies might be foreign, but most of the coders are from the UK.  We do buy more games and are quite the leaders when it comes to gaming decisions and market trends.  Japan is flash in the pan compared to our economy, and maybe the US one too. 

I was at a Games Stop in Vegas in July last year and I had a chat with the Manager and he said the market was dead (Vegas is dead anyway) but I had the same conversation with the Reno Games Stop and they agreed too.  Kids are in there but the parents are not buying.  I bought some Xbox stuff (why I don't know) pretty cheap.

Our game prices are coming down and we are still buying.  With 10% of the 16-24 year old gamers unemployed, lots of time to keep the hobby alive.  We just need to get them the Pi so they can learn and get a job.

We like our games as we do the Pi.   

If you are suggesting that all 30+ students reach around to the back of a pc, unhook their equiptment to use with the pi and then hook it back up properly when done... well good luck with that.

Good luck with what?  With the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- we have at college we have to reach around the back to fix the loose cables just to work the machines.  I am not kidding.  It really is a joke, and the best laugh is that we are saving the planet using 300W PSUs when we can get Pi setups that can be powered with less than 10% of that.  I remember when I was sitting my computer studies O level back in the day and we had to share a Timex Sinclair (ZX80) to code on.  You like membrane Howard?  Cut your teeth on the Atari 400 did you?  I can see Pi Docks being sold to schools and colleges.  HDMI Monitors with USB ports.

I'm writing my thesis for my Honors next year "5 volt cloud", and my little Pi will be part of the study.  I'm hoping my college sees the light and orders 20,000 $25 Model A and gives them away free to all the students (no kidding well you should get something for your £9K a year fee)  At least the woodwork and plastics department will see some action!

[Grasshopper]

Well, the UK did create the best looking home computer ever: the ZX spectrum. Well, a ZX is a little bad to use in 2012 for general computing tasks. Know what? Mod in another motherboard. What does fit in this sexy small machine? Not much. WAIT... HEY... A RASPBERRY PI FITS IN!. Let the ZX live forever with PI brains and a modern OS. WOOHOO! 

Nice idea, but I'm guessing that a ZX Spectrum case would be a little too small for a Raspberry Pi.

However, what would be really cool would be to fit a Raspberry Pi into an old BBC Micro, or Acorn Atom case, as those wonderful machines are the real spiritual predecessors to the Raspberry Pi.

Actually, on second thoughts, I don't think I could bring myself to butcher a real BBC Micro, or Acorn Atom. But if someone started manufacturing a replica case that looked like one of those computers, I'd bite their hands off to get hold of one.

[ark_ader]

Well, the UK did create the best looking home computer ever: the ZX spectrum. Well, a ZX is a little bad to use in 2012 for general computing tasks. Know what? Mod in another motherboard. What does fit in this sexy small machine? Not much. WAIT... HEY... A RASPBERRY PI FITS IN!. Let the ZX live forever with PI brains and a modern OS. WOOHOO! 

Nice idea, but I'm guessing that a ZX Spectrum case would be a little too small for a Raspberry Pi.

However, what would be really cool would be to fit a Raspberry Pi into an old BBC Micro, or Acorn Atom case, as those wonderful machines are the real spiritual predecessors to the Raspberry Pi.

Actually, on second thoughts, I don't think I could bring myself to butcher a real BBC Micro, or Acorn Atom. But if someone started manufacturing a replica case that looked like one of those computers, I'd bite their hands off to get hold of one.

Considering how much the BBC, Atom, and Electron goes on ebay I would agree. 

Replica cases is a great idea for a niche market. 

Since the Pi will be the death knell for low powered ITX boards.

[knave]

Since the Pi will be the death knell for low powered ITX boards.

You really think so?

...I'm not so sure. I am excited about the PI but to me it will make a great media device, or Mame unit. but If I really wanted a small computer I would still rather have a ITX based unit with a full array of ports possibly even a slot for a real HD.

[Blanka]

A Pi too big to fit in a Spectrum? Hahaha, do you know how small it actually is? The size of a credit card. You can make a quad-core Pi server in a ZX spectrum.

[ark_ader]

Since the Pi will be the death knell for low powered ITX boards.

You really think so?

...I'm not so sure. I am excited about the PI but to me it will make a great media device, or Mame unit. but If I really wanted a small computer I would still rather have a ITX based unit with a full array of ports possibly even a slot for a real HD.

Yes I do.  The Raspi does not have any actual audio out (to cut costs), so it will be difficult being a media player without it looking like a USB porcupine, secondly drivers for audio devices will be fun.    HDMI does not provide any audio. 

All my ITX PCs are darn slow.  Great for server applications but completely crap for the basic office applications, especially the Epia (which I am referring to not Intel Hybrids) so the Raspi will have gained some ground there considering it will be able to decode HD.  Try that on an Epia board.  Try to run XBMC on a Epia 5000 or 800.  Heck the old Xbox1 does a better job.

Price point, wise and the ability to pretty much run out of the box headless, and that will be a boon to robot fanciers and the basic programming concepts curriculum, as you can remote in using a host PC, for which this device is geared towards.

Then we have to look at the Power supply issues.  No more power brick PSU or dodgy DC to DC converters.  Just 5V.  And you can easily get that from the sun. 

If college subsidized are we looking at a possible free computing scenario?

[kahlid74]

Got my update that they've been shipped to Element14.  Once Element14 gets them they'll be doing their own consistency checks and then once passed they'll send them my way.  So probably another 1-2 months before it's physically in my hands.