LCD Black Levels are awful?

[Lewis Black]

On my first cabinet I had a nice arcade monitor behind tinted glass and it look amazing.  I could set the black levels such that in-game the blacks were virtually indistinguishable from the unlit portions of the glass.  As a result the game sprites seemed 'float' onscreen... it was very sharp.


I now have a cheapie LCD behind tinted glass and I am not thrilled with how it looks.  Even at the darkest setting, the darkest black level seems gray compared to the unlit areas of the screen.  Is this inherent to LCDs, or do I have a crappy LCD?

[Blanka]

It's inherent to most LCD's except a few excellent ones. Mostly PVA panels are best in blacks. the Samsung F2380M is king, with 1:2500 static contrast. You won't see light blacks on those. It also much depends on ambient light. Another thing that helps is an ambient light sensor. Eizo or NEC's have this and with that feature on, a 1:1000 contrast screen will look deep black in all ambient light conditions.
Another thing that is cumbersome is that blacks are often blues. Quality LCD's have neutral black points, which are much nicer than the blueish ones.

[Jack Burton]

Check in your LCD monitor's menu if there is an option for HDMI black level.  It should have two settings that are called something like normal, full, low, or limited.   Try changing it to the other setting if it's there and see how that looks to you.  

If this doesn't work then go into your video card software on your pc and see if you can find an option to adjust the black level output and try the different settings there.

What kind of card do you have?

[Lewis Black]

I don't think I have a monitor menu item for this, but I will check the ATI control panel on the PC.  I only messed with brightness/contrast/gamma.  Maybe there is a black level setting in there.  I will post my video card type when I get home.

Thanks

[Blanka]

The blackest black of an LCD is determined by 2 things:
backlight brightness
panel type

Weird signal processing can mean the 0-0-0 RGB level is not shown as the darkest possible colour, but with DVI this is always OK. BTW, ATI control only works on analog output like VGA, a cable you should not want to use.

[MonMotha]

FYI, since the terminology is misleading but used for historic reasons:

brightness = black level
contrast = white level (aka "how bright things get")

In other words, if black isn't black enough, try turning down brightness.  If the whites aren't bright enough for you, try turning up contrast.  Yes, the terms can be a bit misleading.

[chriso]

I've got an Acer LCD that I use to watch TV on via a PC Tuner - watching Law & Order was awful  as it's filmed to be very dark - anyone with dark hair looked like it had been painted on with a brush - there was no detail at all.
Some LCDs are just bad at black - I've got two LG LCD LED's one a monitor and one a TV  - the black is superb and has detail.

 

[AcademyDL]

Ghosting is common on cheaper LCD displays so you see poor black levels.

If you want great black levels you need to look for an LCD display
with a high Contrast ratio.

Dont be confused by Dynamic Contrast. Ideally you want to look for
good Native Contrast Ratios.
Its easy to be deceived because most TVs are advertised in Dynamic Contrast to
make their Display seem more impressive and to Beef up the numbers.

Since most are advertised in Dynamic Display. You want to find
a display with at least a 30,000 to 1 Dynamic Display or higher.
Ideally 30,000 to 1 Native is what you want or higher.

Just a few years ago a TV with a 30,000 Dynamic Display would sell for
around $2,000 in the Larger sizes. However Prices have come down a lot.

Just keep those numbers in mind if you decided to purchase a new LCD TV
and want good/Excellent Black Levels.

Im heavily into Home Theater so I was forced to learn about this to get
near to CRT monitor Black Levels.

I hope it makes sense and Helps ya.

[Blanka]

Since most are advertised in Dynamic Display. You want to find
a display with at least a 30,000 to 1 Dynamic Display or higher.
Ideally 30,000 to 1 Native is what you want or higher.

The correlation between dynamic and static contrast is non existent. So dynamic numbers say nada, noppes, zilch, nothing about static figures. I have an Eizo that says 1:5000 dynamic, but is 1:1400 static, and a TN that is 1:700 static yet 1:2000000 dynamic!
There is three things to check:
- In depth reviews that do checkerboard contrast measurements. The only true proof of black levels
- Panel type: SPVA/MVA is best in all directions (1:1400 is common at monitors, 1:3000 with TV's), then comes IPS for wide angle contrast (IPS wins of axis from TN), or TN for straight perpendicular contrast (TN wins from IPS straight up front).
- Panel size. Large TV's are better than 23-27 inch monitors, and these are better than small size panels.

[AcademyDL]

Since most are advertised in Dynamic Display. You want to find
a display with at least a 30,000 to 1 Dynamic Display or higher.
Ideally 30,000 to 1 Native is what you want or higher.

The correlation between dynamic and static contrast is non existent. So dynamic numbers say nada, noppes, zilch, nothing about static figures. I have an Eizo that says 1:5000 dynamic, but is 1:1400 static, and a TN that is 1:700 static yet 1:2000000 dynamic!
There is three things to check:
- In depth reviews that do checkerboard contrast measurements. The only true proof of black levels
- Panel type: SPVA/MVA is best in all directions (1:1400 is common at monitors, 1:3000 with TV's), then comes IPS for wide angle contrast (IPS wins of axis from TN), or TN for straight perpendicular contrast (TN wins from IPS straight up front).
- Panel size. Large TV's are better than 23-27 inch monitors, and these are better than small size panels.

I dont disagree with the above statement but,
that is just going to confuse most reading the thread. Maybe Im wrong.

However, the LCD Displays selling today with a 30,000 Native or higher have great black levels.

Unfortunately most TV makers dont tell you the Native resolution but they do advertise the
Dynamic Contrast.

I have experimented with this and If you use a Samsung, Sony or Toshiba (what Ive used) with a
Dynamic contrast of 30,000 to 1 or higher you will get a very nice to excellent black level.

I wasnt trying to make my reply be a heavy Tech post. More or less a simple
"things to look for when buying an LCD TV"

I use LCD TVs not LCD Monitors because I love the connection options you get for the money.
Also, Most LCD TVs will last for 10+ years if you purchase the correct brand. There also seems
to be a better build quality because of the competition in the Domestic market. Mean while
most LCD monitors Ive ever used go about 6 years or less with constant use.

I own the displays I mention and those native or Dynamic levels were what I needed to get an excellent black level.

[Blanka]

Almost all TV's today from the big brands are IPS or PVA panel TV's (unless they are smaller than 32 inch, then it is a TN panel 99.99% chance). Because of the size, both IPS and PVA can get to 1:2500 static, and that is very decent. So no matter the dynamic figures, all TV's can be good on blacks today (if they are not, then it is either because of bad signal processing or because of bad backlight dimming/too high brightness). With monitors it is much harder to achieve decent blacks, especially if you want good blacks in all directions. There PVA is almost a must for real good blacks.

[AcademyDL]

Almost all TV's today from the big brands are IPS or PVA panel TV's (unless they are smaller than 32 inch, then it is a TN panel 99.99% chance). Because of the size, both IPS and PVA can get to 1:2500 static, and that is very decent. So no matter the dynamic figures, all TV's can be good on blacks today (if they are not, then it is either because of bad signal processing or because of bad backlight dimming/too high brightness). With monitors it is much harder to achieve decent blacks, especially if you want good blacks in all directions. There PVA is almost a must for real good blacks.

You know your stuff,
Thanks for the Info,
That is why I was recommending an LCD TV over a monitor if Deep Blacks are the goal. Well, that and the build quality for the $$$.

I guess the trade off with LCD TV vs. LCD PC Monitor would be that A PC monitor can work with more Resolutions.

Some Resolutions on my PC are out of range for my LCD TV.
Its best to decide what your using it for, and then find out
if your display can produce your needed resolution/s.

[Blanka]

Why do you need other than native resolutions on an LCD? It's not a variable number line-scanning analog thing like CRT monitors were.
Your videocard can do exactly the same as the LCD monitor/tv does: upscaling.

[JRoz]

This may be off topic but i'm having issues with my LCD.  I have the resolution of my monitor to 800x600 which matches what i'm running maximus arcade in.  Anytime I play a game I get those annoying resolution lines anytime something happens on the screen.  Is this a resolution setting somewhere or is it my actual LCD?

[Blanka]

What refresh rate are you using? LCD's do 60Hz and nothing else. And try to skip VGA connections and do DVI or HDMI only.

[JRoz]

ahh good idea, well my current desktop doesnt support hdmi or dvi but my new one will.  I guess I can change the refresh rate in maximus arcade?  What about resolution setings..stretch hardware..i'm running the resolution i believe at 600x800?

[Blanka]

What is the real pixel resolution of the screen?
600x800 LCD's are really scarse, and probly 12 inch or so.
If you have 17 or 19, it is probably 1280x1024. It is best to have the videocard put out native LCD pixels.

[JRoz]

its a 32" .  I just have a widescreen LCD and I cut a bezel around it so its 4:3 (changed the setting to 4:3) on the screen

[snarly]

JRoz:
What brand /model did you use?  How did you set it to 4:3?

I have a large cabinet with a 23height x 25 width space for the monitor....looking to put in lcd and not sure between 23, 24, 26 or even 27 inch.

suggestions greatly appreciated!

should I set this up as a new topic?

[JRoz]

just some random lcd I found online...its actually a magnavox haha..good deal on a 32".  So I just set it to 4:3 in the settings so everything formats that way.  To make it look legit I turned the energy mode on so it gives darker levels.  After I bought some sweet black arcade vinyl and made a face plate for the screen.  It literally fits around the sides and covers up the black areas where the 16:9 would show up.  Now that I think about it.   It would have been a lot easier just to get a piece of plexi glass.  Mark off where the screen came through, and wrap the surrounding area with the black vinyl!  Very happy how it came out though..slim..good picture..takes up no space and it comes out to roughly a 28" screen!  Compliments my showcase style cabinet very nicely.  Lemme know if you have any other questions