SCART TV non-interlaced?

[rjpe]

Hi,

I finished my project 4 months ago, but I'm still trying to get the best look in the Arcade Games.
After reading several posts in this and other forums, and since in live in Europe, I decided to go with a SCART TV.
I have a 25'' Sony that works great (15 years old...), but I managed to buy a brand new 28'' CRT TV in MediaMarket in the end of 2009.

The problem is that it only displays nicely at 640x480i or 720x480i.
When I choose 640x288 (progressive) it looks interlaced (lots of flickering and no scanlines), wich is very strange.
With ArcadeVGA2 (AGP version) it is always switching between 50Hz and 60Hz (strange), but with Soft15Khz and a ATI Radeon HD3650 syncs perfectly in 640x480i or 720x480i.

The TV Set is a DPM28 (Italian brand), with a Beko C7-C8 Chasis. Its does 60Hz and 50Hz.
The TV manual can be find in http://www.s100-manuals.com/manualdetails.asp?id=165038

Since I cannot use original resolutions in MAME, and besides the flicker problem It goes out of sync in low resolutions like 321x240 and all the other bellow 400x..., I'm using Direct 3D with Hardware Stretching.

Any help will be appreciated,

Thanks in Advance.

(PS: MY FIRST POST EVER!)

Ricardo

[apfelanni]

i bought a grundig -beko 26/28 inch tv with c8 chassis and thomson tube some time ago . if i remember correct , there wasnt any prob with a mamescart comp nor a saturn or playstation.  have u checked the tv osd ? maybe something with ur mame installation is wrong . direct 3 d and hardware stretch should be avoided at all cost. i took a snapshot of the c8 osd , very comfortable for a lowcost tv.

ps. lowresgaming via scart rgb tv usually is noninterlaced and beko is a turkey brand . 

[rjpe]

Hi apfelanni!

Thank you for the reply.

I know that HW stretching is not the best option... but it looks great, and still gives the Arcade Look.

The reason why I'm asking this to the forum is because I'm suspecting a problem with the TV.
When I connect the PC (either with ArcadeVGA or Soft15Khz), to the Sony Black Trinitron, it works with the original resolutions, in Direct Draw (the way it should be).

Maybe the Soft15Khz original modelines have to be changed?
I had to change 640x480i with this one (found in this forum):
modeline '640x480' 13,09 640 672 736 836 480 486 489 525 interlace -hsync -vsync

Did you change the modelines in you Grundig? Can you post them?
 

[rjpe]

i bought a grundig -beko 26/28 inch tv with c8 chassis and thomson tube some time ago . if i remember correct , there wasnt any prob with a mamescart comp nor a saturn or playstation.  have u checked the tv osd ? maybe something with ur mame installation is wrong . direct 3 d and hardware stretch should be avoided at all cost. i took a snapshot of the c8 osd , very comfortable for a lowcost tv.

ps. lowresgaming via scart rgb tv usually is noninterlaced and beko is a turkey brand . 

Did you change the soft15khz modelines?

[apfelanni]

i m not sure i tested my tv with soft 15 k or an arcade vga card , but i never changed any modelines. for testing i would have to get the tv out of my storage and plug in my mametestbox. its well packed and dumped somewhere in my cab and tv junkyard aka the carport ( together with 10-15 cabs and 30 tvs ) . i could check it later , but at the moment its raining like hell .  i reused some other beko tvs for arcade monitor replacement or selfbuilds and never encountered tv related problems with games not running in progressvie mode . mostly the problems orginated in poor mame settings.

if ure not sure about the osd settings u made u should check fpr factory defaults . there is a reset switch or factory value list somewhere in the osd itself or the manual .  if u see a game like phoenix with hw stretch on and in direct draw natural resolution its a difference like black n white. u probably should clean ur glasses .. but ur right on the matter with the strange behavior of some tvs. some might work perfect and otheres are more like a pita.  

[rjpe]

OK, so I have to conclude it's a TV model problem. I already did the factory defaults through the service menu, and the problem remains.
Regarding the MAME settings, I'm sure that they're OK (they work with the SONY TV set). Before testing MAME I use QuickRes to view the aspect of the resolutions, and the problem is the same.
It's really giving an interlaced look when using 640x288... it's a shame.

I don't use glasses yet  , but I know what you mean. The real resolutions look amazing, but this configuration (648x480i through SCART-RGB) is much better than using S-Video or Composite Video interfaces.

The CRT TVs are only available used, in on-line auctions, they vanished from the stores 
I will continue to search for other 28'' or 27'' models, but real brands (like Sony, Grundig, Philips, Thomson, etc.).
Other pieces I'm trying to find are the Professional Broadcast Monitors (NEC and SONY), multi-sync with RGB, that act has a real Arcade Monitor. Arcade Monitors are only available abroad, and very are expensive (with the shipping it will cost almost the double!)

Anyway, thanks a lot for you responses. Going the the next step...

[apfelanni]

u may check ur local end of life electronic dump. there are many philips 5o hertz tvs on the market , maybe 90%  with the same a66eak071x01 and 051x01 tubes used in arcade machines. my last container check shows off 5 or more of them , but i didnt pick up one . btw. our local mediamarket doesnt sell crts anymore. the last daewoo and grundigs have been taken out months ago .   

[rjpe]

Under the service menu, when I reset the Video Adjusts (PRESET MENU), the image stays fixed at 640x288 (like it should be), and after 2 seconds it starts flickering...
It looks like there is some value under the "Video Adjustments" Menu that shouldn't be the factory defaults value.
Someone that is an expert on CRT TVs might know what value that is, here are the Video Adjustments settings:

VIDEO ADJ. I
R. DRIVE, G. DRIVE, B. DRIVE, R. CUTOFF, G. CUTOFF, B .CUTOFF, IBRM, WDRM, SCREEN ADJ.
VIDEO ADJ. II
BCL GAIN, BCL TRESHOLD, BCL TRESHOLD II, BCL TIME CONSTANT 1, BCL TIME CONSTANT 2, OSD BRIGHTNESS, OSD CONTRAST, TXT BRIGHTNESS, TXT CONTRAST, YC DELAY FOR PAL, YC DELAY FOR SECAM, YC DELAY FOR NTSC, SUBCARRIER ADJ.
VIDEO ADJ. III
DPWL GAIN, DPWL START P., PWL TIME CONSTANT, PWL, SVM GAIN, SVM CORING, SVM LIMITTER, SVM DELAY, SVM DIFF.WINDOW

[rjpe]

Under the manual I found the SCART specs of the TV (see attached picture).
I'm using the Mame Scart cable (http://www.alvarezeninternet.com/mamescart/).

The TV suports PAL 50hz and NTSC 60Hz, is the TV trying to sync 640x288 in NTSC?

[rjpe]

A minor update to this thread. I asked SailorSat (in Soft15Khz thread, since I'm using his software) about this, and he suspects the TV chassis is 100Hz... and those chassis don't like progressive modes - actually is a good possibility!

Regarding changing the resolution to 640x240 (another SailorSat suggestion), it works but it doesn't look so good as in 640x480i.

A suggestion to all the MAMErs in Europe, that are looking for good old SCART CRT's, in case of doubt, choose one that only does PAL 50hz...
The 60hz will be very good for the interlaced resolutions, but might not work with the progressive ones.

I hope that this will help someone's project.

[jimmy2x2x]

A minor update to this thread. I asked SailorSat (in Soft15Khz thread, since I'm using his software)

SailorSat is a lady, She does all this without joystick

[rjpe]

I'm sorry for the mistake SailorSat!
So that's what the joystick stands for! 
Thanks for the info.

[rjpe]

If you want to see how the cabinet looks like, here is the project thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=105752.0

[rjpe]

Hi,

My current ATI Radeon HD 3650 blowed, so I'm recovering this process again.

- My first try to connect VGA to SCART was with PowerStrip, the cable is slightly different... can be found here http://www.idiots.org.uk/vga_rgb_scart/
- With the other cable, using Soft15Khz and ATI Radeon based cards and ArcadeVGA2, I get different results in 640x480i...  Soft15Khz works, ArcadeVGA doesn't, it is always changing between 50hz and 60hz.

I found the powerstrip INI file here http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=43728.0
Since is easier to change the resolution settings in Powerstrip, I decided to give it a try!

I'll keep you updated.

[rjpe]

I have the same result...
So, If someone has this configuration (ATI Radeon Card + DPM28 Scart TV + Soft15Khz) use either 640x480i@60hz or 720x480i@60hz (PAL60), with HW scretch and d3d - it is the best setup for MAME, Daphne, Zinc and Visual Pinball.

The games look great!

My main concern is the damage that the interlaced resolution may do to our eyes...

[rjpe]

Thread not dead yet!

I'm kind of stuburn when I have techical problems pending... 

My SCART TV displays better at 740x480i, the whites don't look too flashy!
It looks much better now (MAME in d3d set to 720x480). 

A curiosity:- I tried Ghouls n' Ghosts with direct draw, no hw stretch, resolution auto, etc. and it works! 
It has a strange resolution (not displayed in QuickRes...). maybe if I force this resolution to all horizontal games, they will look more authentic?~

Waiting for you reply.