The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: RoomTenONine on July 19, 2008, 09:32:03 pm
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I emailed Andy this week about connecting spinners from other companies to the Mini-pac. He explained that it was possible, but also told me to check out the new Spintrak info that would be up on the ultimarc site in a day or so. I'm glad i waited...this looks REAL nice. It uses Tornado style tops, which I know a lot of people are looking for since Slik-Stik took a nose dive.
http://www.ultimarc.com/SpinTrak.htm
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I was thinking these look perfect for cocktail and bartops. Very small footprint.
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Agreed. I like the "tweakability" too. I'm getting one for the new CP, with the knob that is closest to a Tempest style (wish they did a replica of that and/or the Tron like Oscar did).
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A great new product. :D
Good competition for the TT2.
The web page could do with some fine tuning, though.
The images displaying the small & large flyweights, are upside-down. A 180 degree rotation is in order.
I guess the focal point of those images is the flyweights, perhaps that's why they're upside-down, to have the flyweights at the top of the images. Still, it looks unusual, as its the opposite orientation to how the spinners are mounted in the panel.
[ image names "spintrak2" and "spintrak3" ]
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Good competition for the TT2.
It's unfortunate, however, that the "adoption" of yet another one of my concepts is necessary for him to "compete". Apologies for the snark, but this is just about as sleazy as it gets.
RandyT
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The new SpinTrak, apparently, is the World's Only USB 2.0 spinner, which helps avoid backspin :
this is the worlds only USB 2.0 spinner. USB 2.0 enables a 16-bit interface and a faster packet-rate than USB 1.1 Vital to avoid slowdown or backspin.
Good stuff. :)
I presume this means the TT2 is based on older USB 1.0 or 1.1 technology.
Still, I wouldn't have full confidence in that claim, until Randy concedes that it's indeed the case.
That's because the SpinTrak is no stranger to dubious marketing claims.
For 18 months after the release of the TT2 (which has 1,200 transitions per revolution - the same as the "new" SpinTrak), the old SpinTrak (at a lower 1,000 transitions per revolution) persisted with this boast on the webpage :
The highest-resolution rotary control ever produced for arcade gaming use.
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Resolution of 1000 transitions per revolution makes this the only control ever to match the Arkanoid Trackwheel ...
That boast can still be seen here (until Google refreshes its cache) :
http://209.85.173.104/search?hl=en&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.ultimarc.com%2FSpinTrak.htm&meta=
Anyway, marketing-speak aside, it's great to have a serious new competitor to the TT2.
Perhaps we'll soon see a new TT3, that utilises the same USB 2.0 technology, to close the technological gap that the new SpinTrak has created.
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Perhaps we'll soon see a new TT3, that utilises the same USB 2.0 technology, to close the technological gap that the new SpinTrak has created.
Your mouse is a standard 1.1 HID device. Had any trouble with that?
The TT2 has never had a performance problem, so there is no "gap". It never misses a beat, even on a lowly 98SE system.
Take the marketing claims lightly when it comes to these types of devices.
And BTW, a 2.0 mouse interface is not a new spinner design.
RandyT
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Based on this insight from Andy, I had thought the new SpinTrak might turn out to be an Enhanced and Re-badged TT2.
Andy talks of a new agreement with a "manufacturer with an off-the-shelf product". Possibly the manufacturer could have been GGG ? :
The SpinTrak is discontinued in its present form. We found it was too expensive to produce.
We found a manufacturer with an off-the-shelf product which was almost perfect so it will be replaced by this, with our own interface which will be 16-bit USB 2.0, which is necessary for the high resolution to avoid backspin or slowdown.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=69935.msg855000#msg855000
However, from Randy's comments, we can conclude otherwise.
We can safely say that GGG is definitely NOT the manufacturer of the new SpinTrak :
It's unfortunate, however, that the "adoption" of yet another one of my concepts is necessary for him to "compete". Apologies for the snark, but this is just about as sleazy as it gets.
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For 18 months after the release of the TT2 (which has 1,200 transitions per revolution - the same as the "new" SpinTrak), the old SpinTrak (at a lower 1,000 transitions per revolution) persisted with this boast on the webpage :
The highest-resolution rotary control ever produced for arcade gaming use.
...
Resolution of 1000 transitions per revolution makes this the only control ever to match the Arkanoid Trackwheel ...
The original SpinTrak came out before the TT2 and at that time it had the highest resolution.
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For 18 months after the release of the TT2 (which has 1,200 transitions per revolution - the same as the "new" SpinTrak), the old SpinTrak (at a lower 1,000 transitions per revolution) persisted with this boast on the webpage :
The highest-resolution rotary control ever produced for arcade gaming use.
...
Resolution of 1000 transitions per revolution makes this the only control ever to match the Arkanoid Trackwheel ...
The original SpinTrak came out before the TT2 and at that time it had the highest resolution.
And well before that, the original TurboTwist had the highest resolution, and it also played Arkanoid perfectly.
RandyT
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The original SpinTrak came out before the TT2 and at that time it had the highest resolution.
True.
But the TT2 was released shortly afterwards, which was at least 18 months ago.
You'd think that 18 months is a sufficient period of time in which to "update a superceded claim" on a webpage.
Having said that, Ultimarc has never had a flashy website. They instead focus their energies in better placed areas, such as on the quality of their products, customer support, and new product innovations.
No-one would argue with those areas having a higher priority and focus, than their website.
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Based on this insight from Andy, I had thought the new SpinTrak might turn out to be an Enhanced and Re-badged TT2.
Andy talks of a new agreement with a "manufacturer with an off-the-shelf product". Possibly the manufacturer could have been GGG ? :
Or maybe Andy buys the same off-the-shelf product that GGG buys?
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Based on this insight from Andy, I had thought the new SpinTrak might turn out to be an Enhanced and Re-badged TT2.
Andy talks of a new agreement with a "manufacturer with an off-the-shelf product". Possibly the manufacturer could have been GGG ? :
Or maybe Andy buys the same off-the-shelf product that GGG buys?
I sincerely hope you are just trolling with that statement. The TT2 is a 100% GGG product, invented and developed by yours truly. The metal body is done in a little shop in PA by a very skilled machinist, who depends on jobs like the ones I send him to make his his living. And the rest is manufactured / assembled by us in order to help make ours.
RandyT
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The reason why our Spintrak webpage was not updated was because we discontinued the original unit some 8 months ago. So it was not available for purchase, out of stock in the store all of this time.
Our original Spintrak was designed before SMD reflective quadrature sensors were available, to enable the sensor to be made sufficiently small, and also much cheaper than before. This is why we discontinued it, because technology had advanced and we wished to take advantage of it. There was no reason to continue using a two-element transmissive sensor when one single SMD chip would work.
From the look of the TT2 I would think it uses a packaged sensor module from www.usdigital.com. When this package became available it made absolute sense to use it in this application. But in fact we did find a manufacturer who was already making a complete compact encoder unit using an SMD reflective sensor chip. They are an "offshore" company (Not China) and our unit has their part number with a suffix for the type of connector we specified.
I do not consider adopting new technology "sleazy" just because another supplier is also using this technology. The KeyWiz uses the same chip as the I-PAC, no problem with that.
On the subject of USB 2.0 vs 1.1.
Using USB 1.1 gives a maximum data packet of 7 bits in each direction (8 bits total) ie 127 increments. The "poll rate" unless it is artificially increased is approx 7ms.
This means with 1200 pulses per revolution, that is 9.5 data packets per revolution which (in an ideal situation) would take 66.5 ms. This equates to a maximum speed of 15 revs per second. In testing we found it is easy to exceed this in gaming especially on "transients". Twisting the knob quickly easily exceeds 127 pulses.
USB 2.0 uses 15-bit data in each direction (in this case) and a faster poll rate and so there is no realistic restriction at all. The counter in the interface is 16 bits wide so can count any possible transient "twist".
As far as PS/2 goes, we dumped this altogether. Its quite difficult to calculate a maximum supported speed with PS/2 as there are so many factors, including the fact that the interface has to send each bit individually while trying to deal with the pulses from the encoder. The data rate will be limited to much lower than the theoretical maximum packet rate on the interface. For PS/2 its best to simply test performance. Adjusting mouse speed to lowest in Windows, and spinning at increasing rates. The speed limitation can be observed.
The 127-pulse transient limit also applies in PS/2.
Andy
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From Andy's explanation, a USB 2.0 interface is beneficial with a high resolution spinner.
Let's face it guys, you've both "adopted" the spinner "concept" from the arcade game manufacturers. No-one has a monopoly on the spinner.
Both the SpinTrak and TT2 are great products.
Andy - given this is a SpinTrak thread, can I ask a question :
>> The SpinTrak appears with a nice-looking Red knob (SlikStik style) on the product webpage. However, the Red knobs are not available on the order page. Will they be made available ? ???
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Thanks for the alert, forgot to add the red to the store. Have now done so.
Andy
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Hmmm, anyone know if my Oscar MAME engraved tops fit this?
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I do not consider adopting new technology "sleazy" just because another supplier is also using this technology. The KeyWiz uses the same chip as the I-PAC, no problem with that.
Of course you don't. You are the one who has engaged in blatant pilfery of my design. The TT2 design is a 100% new spinner design, and comparing copying it virtually verbatim, to the use of a commonly available blank microcontroller used by thousands of manufacturers, and which does not contain the tiniest segment of your code is just a dishonest representation of the situation. Unless you now want folks to believe that you have designed the physical chip.
And those "new surface mount encoder" packages have been around for many months before SlikStik Christian started pushing your "joint effort" Spintrak. Even if you just found them and started using them, they work just as well attached to a mounting plate like the one in your design. There is no justification you can use for taking mine as your own, regardless of what you want folks to believe.
On the subject of USB 2.0 vs 1.1.
Using USB 1.1 gives a maximum data packet of 7 bits in each direction (8 bits total) ie 127 increments. The "poll rate" unless it is artificially increased is approx 7ms.
Any setting you make on a system that is not left in it's default state is an "artificial increase". Change one setting on an XP system and things are no longer the case as you have just described them. A 98SE system doesn't even require that for your spiel to cease holding water. Installing a driver that does the exact same thing is no significant difference. Hundreds of good folks have praised the TT2, with it's current interface, for it's unmatched performance. This would not be so, were there any reason whatsoever to switch to a 2.0 interface.
Doing so just requires that you give up PS/2 compatibility, and requires you to buy a new USB hub / interface card if yours isn't 2.0 compatible.
RandyT
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Just some thoughts from someone who is on the cusp of ordering an encoder, spinner and other parts for a new CP.
Respectively to those involved, the comments regarding stealing design ideas come off as petty bickering. I'm not saying they are or are not warranted as I don't have the full details (nor do I really care), but I don't see how this can be considered design theft (in claims from both parties). Being first to market with a new design idea that becomes popular will be mirrored...unless of course you go get the appropriate patent. By your rationale every car manufacturer making V6 engines today and in the past are pilfering from Lancia and their original V6 design. Yes, other engines had existed before and even inline 6 cyls, but the V6 was a milestone in design...and EVERYONE except the exotics use them. The same can be said for joystik designs. I don't know who made the fist 8-way microswitch stik or leaf switch, but obviously everyone making current controls copies those designs.
From what I've read, both companies here offer great products and customer support. I'd much rather see you two one-up each other in products and customer support than holler about who's idea it was.
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...unless of course you go get the appropriate patent.
This process was actually started some time ago. Ergo, this issue.
I'm sorry you see this as something petty. It's hard to understand as an outsider. But consider how you might feel if you worked months on a project for your company that meant a fat raise and a boost in the quality of living for your family, and another individual in your office photocopied and submitted it, thereby claiming the fruits of your labor? Is that also a case of "that's the way the cookie crumbles"? How is that so different?
RandyT
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...unless of course you go get the appropriate patent.
This process was actually started some time ago. Ergo, this issue.
And it wasn't successful or is just taking a while? Have the right attorney working on it?
I'm sorry you see this as something petty. It's hard to understand as an outsider. But consider how you might feel if you worked months on a project for your company that meant a fat raise and a boost in the quality of living for your family, and another individual in your office photocopied and submitted it, thereby claiming the fruits of your labor? Is that also a case of "that's the way the cookie crumbles"? How is that so different?
It is different. The office scenario is someone stealing your idea before you had a chance to present/submit it and getting all the credit. In the case of the spinners you got to present your product first. That said, I understand the frustration of having potential income leeched by competition, especially when you or your company are the originators. However, that is what patents, keeping designs secret until they are protected and attorneys are for. It is a gamble I understand well. Do you push to market early before a patent or copyright is secured...hoping no one figures it out or do you hold off on making some instant coin in the interest of IP security? I know how frustrating it is, but this is the norm in nearly all areas of industry.
That said, I'm still very interested in your spinner, but I also would like to run a mini-pac (or something similar) with the harness for ease of use. I'm still very much on the fence.
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Long Live Ultimarc.
I seriously doubt he has no problem whatsoever competing with you. What he may not have in product lineup he more than makes up in the way he treats people. You really need to step back and look at what you type before attacking a much more respected member of this community than yourself.
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And it wasn't successful or is just taking a while? Have the right attorney working on it?
Obviously you have never prosecuted a patent application (BTW, I have 3 published). It's a long process to get one issued.
It is different. The office scenario is someone stealing your idea before you had a chance to present/submit it and getting all the credit.
Again, I fully understand all aspects of IP protection. I have even tried to offer "non-legal" advice about it here from time to time. But it is not so different. All a new potential customer, such as yourself, sees is two virtually identical designs. How do I now get a chance to "present my idea first", thus getting the "credit". If nothing else, this post will help serve as a footnote in the history of its creation that can be referenced by interested entities.
RandyT
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What he may not have in product lineup he more than makes up in the way he treats people. You really need to step back and look at what you type before attacking a much more respected member of this community than yourself.
I have no interest in competing for your favor. Your posts pretty much point out how futile that endeavor will be.
My customers know much better who I am than you purport to.
RandyT
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Hey Andy,
Your new SpinTrak spinner looks awesome and I'm right about at the point where I'm interested in getting a replacement for my Tornado, sooo... a few questions for ya:
1) Will there be a wheel add-on option? If so, will it pivot on an axis via gear and stand? My spinner is close to the monitor glass so a wheel larger than say 4" would not be possible, plus it's nice to have a wheel actually facing you of course.. :-) If this is not possible I'd still be interested in a small wheel top if you'll make one available.
2) From the pictures, it looks like the SpinTrak uses a standard Happ button mount rather than the Tornado's pinhole mount - am I right? If so, I assume I'll need to create a larger hole in my SlikStik classic panel?
3) Will the SpinTrak work with Vista through a USB hub? My old Tornado will work through a hub in XP, but not Vista.
Thanks in advance for answering, Andy. Your products (and customer service) are just excellent.
Shoegazer
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Wait. I'm confused. Andy's product is some "off the shelf" product from another manufacturer with his interface, right?
Then how did he blatantly rip off RandyT's design? Sounds like someone else already has a spinner similar to Randy's out there...
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Wait. I'm confused. Andy's product is some "off the shelf" product from another manufacturer with his interface, right?
Then how did he blatantly rip off RandyT's design? Sounds like someone else already has a spinner similar to Randy's out there...
The "encoder module" that sits below the spinner body is "off the shelf". Everything else is not. It seems like there is intentional confusion between the two.
This would be akin to stating that the High-Low is "off the shelf" because it too uses the same type of encoder module as the TT2.
Of course, if this is not the case, and a knockoff is being produced and sold by another company, I'd be interested in knowing who this is.
RandyT
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Note that we were the first to launch a spinner with a rear-mounted detachable flywheel. When the TT2 was launched with this feature I didnt say a thing.
When a version of the KeyWiz was launched which has the same connector layout as the I-PAC I didnt either. Just seemed to be a reasonable advance as its a neater layout than the original.
I remember when the TT1 was launched thinking how much like the Tornado it seemed. A good product nevertheless.
Andy
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So the encoder is off-the-shelf, the interface is Andy's, and the spinner hardware is what you feel is being copied, right? The "push-button size" mount, correct?
I know patents can take a long time, but if the submission's been made, you probably should put a "Patent Pending" on your site. Hopefully there's no prior patent on a similar design, but that's what takes so long for Patent Lawyers.
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Wait. I'm confused. Andy's product is some "off the shelf" product from another manufacturer with his interface, right?
Then how did he blatantly rip off RandyT's design? Sounds like someone else already has a spinner similar to Randy's out there...
Indeed. The entire unit is a DIN-standard encoder. The manufacturers part number is ENC 33/6DS-300AB/5V
Dont forget these are not really just "spinners" but standard incremental encoders used in many industrial applications. The actual encoder PCB and optical wheel is not something bolted on, we buy the entire unit. I do know that the optical part is not the US Digital unit but is the manufacturers own.
At the moment we have units which have the DIN standard connector pinout so we are having to re-jig the connector pinout as ours is different.
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..you probably should put a "Patent Pending" on your site. Hopefully there's no prior patent on a similar design, but that's what takes so long for Patent Lawyers.
Thanks for the advice, but it's been there since the process was started, as well as included in the documentation that ships with them.
Note that we were the first to launch a spinner with a rear-mounted detachable flywheel. When the TT2 was launched with this feature I didnt say a thing.
There is no other way to design a "flywheel" for my design and it was in development long before Christian started showing yours.
When a version of the KeyWiz was launched which has the same connector layout as the I-PAC I didnt either.
It's a simple matter of conserving board space and is hardly an original idea.
I remember when the TT1 was launched thinking how much like the Tornado it seemed. A good product nevertheless.
Thank you. Of course you would have had to ignore the fact that it was a solid material design, had a resolution that was several times greater, a printed encoder that resides below the frame, and a PCB that also acted as a structural member to stiffen the box design. But Christian also saw the similarities you did, and went on to attempt to disparage the move toward high resolution spinner devices I was advocating at the time. The thread is still here for those interested, but sadly it has been chewed up a bit by the forum software.
RandyT
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And it wasn't successful or is just taking a while? Have the right attorney working on it?
Obviously you have never prosecuted a patent application (BTW, I have 3 published). It's a long process to get one issued.
I have not personally prosecuted one, although I am familiar with the process professionally. However, that isn't where my understanding really stems from. My spouse is a commercial litigation attorney so I'm all too familiar with the length of time it can take on such situations and that it can drag on if things aren't handled correctly from the beginning. I can see where your design could get caught up in arguments during the patent process. I also don't notice any patent pending notices with this device, FWIW they may be helpful.
It is different. The office scenario is someone stealing your idea before you had a chance to present/submit it and getting all the credit.
Again, I fully understand all aspects of IP protection. I have even tried to offer "non-legal" advice about it here from time to time. But it is not so different. All a new potential customer, such as yourself, sees is two virtually identical designs. How do I now get a chance to "present my idea first", thus getting the "credit". If nothing else, this post will help serve as a footnote in the history of its creation that can be referenced by interested entities.
Randy
If you understand IP so well, why are you complaining about your idea being stolen when you could have protected it? It appears you went to market early either because the patent process was taking too long for your liking and/or you aren't sure if the patent will be successful. Now that your idea isn't protected and others follow suit you are irked. I get it, but you are the one that could have prevented this up front. As it stands it is fair game.
Actually, when I began researching spinners your competitor had nothing to offer me. You did "present first" to me. In fact you presented first to the entire industry with this style of footprint. I was planning on buying your spinner and his interface. I asked him about connecting spinners from other companies and he honestly informed that is was possible. He could have easily spun some BS about it not being perfect or that his spinner was better to lure me into buying his products only. He gave me an honest answer.
Also, I do not see the spinners as virtually identical designs. All I see are spinners that may or may not fit my needs. You are the one claiming they are virtually identical by the assertion that the design was copied.
To be honest this discussion is very disappointing. Here I am defending simple comments about keeping industry arguments away from a post intended to inform others of a product. This to me is borderline trolling. There are appropriate and mature ways to handle industry squabbles and hijacking a thread is not one of them.
Edited for messed up quote brackets.
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Then how did he blatantly rip off RandyT's design? Sounds like someone else already has a spinner similar to Randy's out there...
Indeed. The entire unit is a DIN-standard encoder. The manufacturers part number is ENC 33/6DS-300AB/5V
Let me get this straight: The shaft, bearings, nut, threaded body of the same size and length as an arcade pushbutton is something that you are purchasing, "off the shelf", with no input of specifications by you to the company or being manufactured specifically for you?
Can you provide me with details of the manufacturer?
RandyT
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Hey Andy,
1) Will there be a wheel add-on option? If so, will it pivot on an axis via gear and stand? My spinner is close to the monitor glass so a wheel larger than say 4" would not be possible, plus it's nice to have a wheel actually facing you of course.. :-) If this is not possible I'd still be interested in a small wheel top if you'll make one available.
We will not be making available a wheel option unfortunately because I believe the 6mm shaft is too thin to reliably support a relatively large wheel without the risk of getting bent.
2) From the pictures, it looks like the SpinTrak uses a standard Happ button mount rather than the Tornado's pinhole mount - am I right? If so, I assume I'll need to create a larger hole in my SlikStik classic panel?
It requires a 28mm hole.
3) Will the SpinTrak work with Vista through a USB hub? My old Tornado will work through a hub in XP, but not Vista.
Strange that the Tornado did not work in Vista. It will be fine in Vista.
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If you understand IP so well, why are you complaining about your idea being stolen when you could have protected it?
I'm not exactly sure why you believe it is not protected? Not currently against competition, but we both know that. That is why it is being brought up here, and not in an attorney's office, in order to point out that doing such a thing is an unsavory business practice that sets the stage for future interaction between vendors. I have taken note of this and will, sadly, adjust my practices accordingly.
In any event, there's nothing more I can add here, so I will bow out. They say time heals all wounds, so I'll let the process begin.
RandyT
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:jerry
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If you understand IP so well, why are you complaining about your idea being stolen when you could have protected it?
I'm not exactly sure why you believe it is not protected? Not currently against competition, but we both know that. That is why it is being brought up here, and not in an attorney's office, in order to point out that doing such a thing is an unsavory business practice that sets the stage for future interaction between vendors. I have taken note of this and will, sadly, adjust my practices accordingly.
In any event, there's nothing more I can add here, so I will bow out. They say time heals all wounds, so I'll let the process begin.
RandyT
Legally speaking you have little recourse at this point because you do not have a patent. What's not to understand about that. You could have waited for the patent to go through, release the product and then (legally speaking) you'd have a valid complaint. Otherwise your argument is really weak. Like I said I understand your frustration, but to say that it is 100% unsavory for a company to emulate a good design that isn't patented puts a bad taste in my mouth and comes off as finger pointing and whiny. By your rationale any company making flat panel plasma TV is unsavory for "stealing" the idea from the guys at U. of Illinois who came up with it in the 60's! The same rationale would damn any company making modern rubber tires the likes of which Charles Goodyear invented. Going even further, those people actually invented the technology as a whole. You've streamlined an already established device that you did not invent. Not to say that the change wasn't amazing (it is), but you are acting as if some horrible wrong has befallen you simply for having your un-patented idea used by a direct competitor.
Edit: The more I think about this the more I realize I am being too quick to say "You should have had the patent first, Randy". Yes that process would have protected him, but the length and cost of such things are very prohibitive for small businesses. In addition Randy pushed something to market that benefits our niche community before his legal rear was covered. Some may see that as foolish whim as I initially implied, but the more I think about it, the more I see this as Randy making a sacrifice to help the BYOAC enthisiasts. I apologize to Randy if I came across as callous or speaking out without fully understanding the situation between GGG and Ultimarc and who brought different innovations to market first.
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Hey Andy,
1) Will there be a wheel add-on option? If so, will it pivot on an axis via gear and stand? My spinner is close to the monitor glass so a wheel larger than say 4" would not be possible, plus it's nice to have a wheel actually facing you of course.. :-) If this is not possible I'd still be interested in a small wheel top if you'll make one available.
We will not be making available a wheel option unfortunately because I believe the 6mm shaft is too thin to reliably support a relatively large wheel without the risk of getting bent.
That's unfortunate. I may actually need to buy the TT2 spinner since a wheel option is very important to me. Anyone know if the TT2 spinner will work in a SlikStik classic panel easily (Randy)? Are there any issues with the KeyWiz harness I should be aware of?
2) From the pictures, it looks like the SpinTrak uses a standard Happ button mount rather than the Tornado's pinhole mount - am I right? If so, I assume I'll need to create a larger hole in my SlikStik classic panel?
It requires a 28mm hole.
3) Will the SpinTrak work with Vista through a USB hub? My old Tornado will work through a hub in XP, but not Vista.
Strange that the Tornado did not work in Vista. It will be fine in Vista.
It does work in Vista, just not through a hub. I assumed this was some flaw in the Tornado driver, but then, since the Tornado was not designed at a time when Vista was around, it's completely forgivable. Also I'm not using any special drivers, just whatever is installed when you plug in the spinner in - is there an option to update?
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Anyone know if the TT2 spinner will work in a SlikStik classic panel easily (Randy)?
PM sent.
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Then how did he blatantly rip off RandyT's design? Sounds like someone else already has a spinner similar to Randy's out there...
Indeed. The entire unit is a DIN-standard encoder. The manufacturers part number is ENC 33/6DS-300AB/5V
Let me get this straight: The shaft, bearings, nut, threaded body of the same size and length as an arcade pushbutton is something that you are purchasing, "off the shelf", with no input of specifications by you to the company or being manufactured specifically for you?
Can you provide me with details of the manufacturer?
RandyT
Any manufacturer who is designing a compact encoder using the Avago SMT reflective sensor chip will follow the Avago spec in terms of the diameter of the optical wheel and this would dictate the minimum overall diameter of the unit so any design using this technology would end up being approximately this size.
Although incremental encoders have many applications there was one main usage which this unit was aimed at, which was monitoring production line motion, having a rubber wheel attached to it, and mounted on a spring-loaded arm so needing to be compact and light.
We did specify the resolution and they were able to produce higher than their standard.
We also beat them up on price...
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What he may not have in product lineup he more than makes up in the way he treats people. You really need to step back and look at what you type before attacking a much more respected member of this community than yourself.
I have no interest in competing for your favor. Your posts pretty much point out how futile that endeavor will be.
My customers know much better who I am than you purport to.
RandyT
I really could care less of what you think of me, but every post you make like this you further alienate yourself from others who may have been interested in purchasing your products. It's a real shame your this way, I've spent my good money on your products and while I enjoy them I wouldn't spend another dime simply because of your attitude towards people. Since your successful, I guess it doesn't matter if you lose a customer here and there.
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I apologize to Randy if I came across as callous or speaking out without fully understanding the situation between GGG and Ultimarc and who brought different innovations to market first.
Of everybody in this thread, you are the guy who doesn't owe anybody an apology ... you called it as you saw it while many others (myself included) just let yet another "Randy-vs-Andy-threadcrap-fest" run wild. Frankly, I expect that most find it boring (almost like reading my posts!) without an authoritative 3rd party talking details about the specifications.
:cheers:
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What he may not have in product lineup he more than makes up in the way he treats people. You really need to step back and look at what you type before attacking a much more respected member of this community than yourself.
I have no interest in competing for your favor. Your posts pretty much point out how futile that endeavor will be.
My customers know much better who I am than you purport to.
RandyT
As one of your (repeat) customers, I don't think you're doing yourself any favors with the tone of your posts. Regardless of the truth of the situation, you seem more interested in being "right" than anything else. As a smart businessman in a small community, it would seem to be to your advantage to find a way to present your position in a more tactful and professional manner.
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Randy's arrogant posts in this thread strengthen my long-standing personal decision to always seek alternatives to GGG. I never intend to purchase a single GGG product as long as he maintains this type of combative posture against every small-scale manufacturer who brings a great product to market for us.
Eric.
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Actually, if one looks back, one should be able to find out that
the Idea is actually MINE.
I had created the idea for a pushbutton mount spinner YEARS before either
of these two.
I believe I actually Re-posted the Idea on this board... and Randy came out with shortly afterwards.
I find it incredibly funny how Randy is complaining of copycatting.. when
he's usually the culprit. Wasnt there a few guys here who tried to make
and sell devices, and didnt get two months in before Randy made a device
that did the same thing?! Bubbading (led controller), and a Rotary
controller I believe as well.
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I had created this even before this date... However, heres the info
from my homestead acct:
Name: Spinner_V2.gif
Size: 13K
Last Updated: 09/09/2003 01:01:41 GMT
URL: http://xiaou2.homestead.com/Spinner
_V2.gif
(http://xiaou2.homestead.com/Spinner
_V2.gif)
(http://xiaou2.homestead.com/Spinner
_V1.jpg)
(http://xiaou2.homestead.com/files/6w_tronpanel.jpg)
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Actually, if one looks back, one should be able to find out that
the Idea is actually MINE.
You should TOTALLY sue everyone! :woot
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Id settle for 4 brand new spinners for my next project... :)
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I had created this even before this date... However, heres the info
from my homestead acct:
Name: Spinner_V2.gif
That's a nice design, but I don't see much similarities with the other two spinners in question. The main reason I went with the TT2 was to get away from having the optic board mounted on a bracket that is separate from the spinner itself. Not having a large encoder wheel is another big plus. That reminds me more of the old Oscar spinner design.
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I find it incredibly funny how Randy is complaining of copycatting.. when
he's usually the culprit. Wasnt there a few guys here who tried to make
and sell devices, and didnt get two months in before Randy made a device
that did the same thing?! Bubbading (led controller), and a Rotary
controller I believe as well.
Ahh it's turning into a real "who's who" of RandyT haters. What took you so long Steve?
As for the LED controller, it started well before Buddabing with a project interestingly entitled L.A.M.E. by a fellow named DinoRoger in late 03'. Dino started an LED controller project, made a lot promises, and then disappeared never to be heard from again. There was much wailing and disappointment in the ranks, so I added the task to my "to do" list, working on it between other projects. Buddabing decided to do the same, with both of us working in very different directions. You can read more about that portion of history here.... (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=15674.0)
And you pulled out that "spinner" drawing (having never published it anywhere) when the TT2 was first released. A for effort and all, but it's no more similar now than it was then.
I believe I actually Re-posted the Idea on this board... and Randy came out with shortly afterwards.
You also believe some other pretty bizarre stuff, so it's not surprising that your above belief is also terribly inaccurate. It shouldn't be too hard to find your time stamped post and provide a link if you really think you did. Just as I did with the LED controller thing above.
RandyT
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Ahh it's turning into a real "who's who" of RandyT haters. What took you so long Steve?
Randy.. Really Man, really. I dont Hate anyone. There are a few I strongly dislike (and your not even on that short list) ... but I dont hate.
If we roll back the clock and view posts.. the evidence would show you as
throwing insults and personal attacks at me. Yet, its rare that I ever return that.
And you pulled out that "spinner" drawing (having never published it anywhere) when the TT2 was first released. A for effort and all, but it's no more similar now than it was then.
LoL. That drawing had most likely been posted before. But certainly those
pics of my original spinner Were published Long ago, probably several times...
and many of the pics have existed on my sites main page from the time of
build.
The real genius idea here is the mounting method. The optics are
technology that you didnt invent. They simply became available to be used,
and thus made it easier to compact the design.
Quote
I believe I actually Re-posted the Idea on this board... and Randy came out with shortly afterwards.
You also believe some other pretty bizarre stuff, so it's not surprising that your above belief is also terribly inaccurate. It shouldn't be too hard to find your time stamped post and provide a link if you really think you did. Just as I did with the LED controller thing above.
RandyT
Another attempt at a personal attack. Such a shame you have to be
like that. This attitude really only paints you a darker color in the eyes of
others.
Ill look up my post later. Shouldnt be too hard to find. My time is limited these
days, as Ive got back into the martial arts again.
Anyways, its clear that my Idea came YEARS before "your?" idea. Way Back
before the very 1st (arcade) rotating control panel.
To those who cant clearly understand my pic: Its a main single piece that
contains the Top mount + one side of the bearings holder.
The other side of the bearing holder snaps in place, and then you screw the
two halves together with the plastic nut - just like a happs button...Both tightening
the button to the panel... and sealing the two bearing halves together.
I wanted to make it all Translucent, so would Glow like the Tron stick.
The top mount is shaped like the Disc that you stand on in Discs of Tron.
(or the discs that you shoot) Would have went really nice with a Red
Tron stick.... or make spinner red or maybe neon glowing green...
There was experiments with up/down as well (as you can see from the pic with
the spring). The motion worked well... however.. building a device that would
ride with it did not work well.
The biggest failure factors were inexperience, costs, and the wrong materials.
Ahh well... at least I tried... :'(
Edit:
Heres the evidence of my design/creations posted years before:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=11511.0
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Randy,
It's not in your interests to display a bitter, "sour grapes" attitude.
No-one has a God-given right to disparage their competitors.
Your products are great. But Ultimarc's products are equally great, and they are entitled to compete, as are other vendors.
I realise you're an emotive person, and that can be a good thing (it drives the passion you have for your products). But emotion must be tempered and controlled.
Andy has never resorted to arrogance or nastiness. He always demonstrates an impeccable standard of vendor behaviour. An example to follow.
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Ahh it's turning into a real "who's who" of RandyT haters. What took you so long Steve?
Randy,
I'm not aware of the personal history you have with individual forum members, so maybe there's something behind that comment that I'm unaware of.
But to be fair, you set the ball rolling, in terms of the anger in this thread.
You obviously feel strongly about your point of view, but some things are better left unsaid.
All's fair in love, war, and vendor competition. ;)
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Randy.. Really Man, really. I dont Hate anyone. There are a few I strongly dislike (and your not even on that short list) ... but I dont hate.
If we roll back the clock and view posts.. the evidence would show you as
throwing insults and personal attacks at me. Yet, its rare that I ever return that.
Yea, we'd have to roll the clock all the way back to a couple months ago to find you threatening a moderator with physical harm and getting temporarily banned. If anyone comes out with a steamroller wheel covered with game controllers, then I'll believe you're getting ripped off.
-
Twisting things around bases on circumstantial bullying,
will not change the REAL facts here.
And as one can see from the past history, its not only me who has been bullied
by such 'Prestigious' personalities here...
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Andy has never resorted to arrogance or nastiness. He always demonstrates an impeccable standard of vendor behaviour. An example to follow.
Andy is English...that behavior is his nature. Randy is from New York...loudly voicing emotion is his nature. ;) Sorry, this thread needs some ---smurfing--- levity.
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Randy.. Really Man, really. I dont Hate anyone. There are a few I strongly dislike (and your not even on that short list) ... but I dont hate.
If we roll back the clock and view posts.. the evidence would show you as
throwing insults and personal attacks at me. Yet, its rare that I ever return that.
Yea, we'd have to roll the clock all the way back to a couple months ago to find you threatening a moderator with physical harm and getting temporarily banned. If anyone comes out with a steamroller wheel covered with game controllers, then I'll believe you're getting ripped off.
:laugh2: And here I thought this forum and hobby would be so dull I'd want nothing to do but finish my cabinet in weeks and just play games. If this keeps up I'll never get done.
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I apologize to Randy if I came across as callous or speaking out without fully understanding the situation between GGG and Ultimarc and who brought different innovations to market first.
Of everybody in this thread, you are the guy who doesn't owe anybody an apology ... you called it as you saw it while many others (myself included) just let yet another "Randy-vs-Andy-threadcrap-fest" run wild. Frankly, I expect that most find it boring (almost like reading my posts!) without an authoritative 3rd party talking details about the specifications.
:cheers:
I missed this in the muck of the thread. Thanks. :cheers: to you.
-
Yea, we'd have to roll the clock all the way back to a couple months ago to find you threatening a moderator with physical harm and getting temporarily banned. If anyone comes out with a steamroller wheel covered with game controllers, then I'll believe you're getting ripped off.
:laugh2:
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I like Andy & Randy.
The only difference to me is the letter "R".
(knee slapp)
Anyway, Andy displayed quite a bit of patience with me a few projects ago & Randy offered assistance to me a few weeks back.
Go whine to Happ, see what they do for you.
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Go whine to Happ, see what they do for you.
Haha. I'm still waiting for returned phone calls and emails from them...from months ago.
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Yup, its a riot when people bash and bully forum members isnt it?
And when that member feels he is being threatened... warns them of the
consequences.
Of course, it was a misunderstanding in the heat of conflict.. However
what it is now is a tool for the JEALOUS little kiddies to try to use to make
themselves feel better about themselves.
If they had any self worth, Dignity, and self respect.. then such people wouldnt
Stoop to being so low and childish.
However, this is not the case with these lowlife scum.
And yes, I agree with the A & R quote. Both have exuded extreme arrogance. Andy seems to be a little more grown up though. Or at least, is too busy to waste
time bashing/mocking others.
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This thread has been hijacked and needs to get back on Trak. ;)
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This thread has been hijacked and needs to get back on Trak. ;)
:laugh2:
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Anyone know if the TT2 spinner will work in a SlikStik classic panel easily (Randy)?
It'll work in anything that has that size hole.
That's a nice design, but I don't see much similarities with the other two spinners in question.
Yeah, that doesn't even count.
And yes, I agree with the A & R quote. Both have exuded extreme arrogance.
Randy is...well, Randy. But I haven't seen anything by Andy that's been off-kilter. Has anyone noticed X's posts consistently have the same format, which usually entails a certain kind of length relative to the point(s) made?...do you skip them automatically for these reasons?
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And yes, I agree with the A & R quote. Both have exuded extreme arrogance. Andy seems to be a little more grown up though. Or at least, is too busy to waste
time bashing/mocking others.
---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. I've never seen Andy exude extreme arrogance. You must be reading way too much crap into his posts.
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Go whine to Happ, see what they do for you.
Haha. I'm still waiting for returned phone calls and emails from them...from months ago.
Yeah!? Well, when I asked them for a UK coin mech they firstly said that they don't stock them, then they sent me an email saying look on their website it has all the info you need! Now you try to find me a UK coin mech!
Lol.
Look guys, both your products are great, I know because I have both!
Lets just all help and love one another and build some awesome arcade machines!!! ;D
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I apologize to Randy if I came across as callous or speaking out without fully understanding the situation between GGG and Ultimarc and who brought different innovations to market first.
Of everybody in this thread, you are the guy who doesn't owe anybody an apology ... you called it as you saw it while many others (myself included) just let yet another "Randy-vs-Andy-threadcrap-fest" run wild. Frankly, I expect that most find it boring (almost like reading my posts!) without an authoritative 3rd party talking details about the specifications.
:cheers:
I missed this in the muck of the thread. Thanks. :cheers: to you.
You've been spot-on in your analysis of the entire situation. :cheers:
-
Can you provide me with details of the manufacturer?
... is a change on the cards, for the raw materials sourcing for the TT2 ?
This guy's employment could be looking shakey.
Oh well, skilled machinists can always find work in auto repair shops, to grind down engine heads, disc brakes, etc ...
The metal body is done in a little shop in PA by a very skilled machinist, who depends on jobs like the ones I send him to make his his living.
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Can you provide me with details of the manufacturer?
... is a change on the cards, for the raw materials sourcing for the TT2 ?
No. The TT2 is a "Made In USA" product, from design to finish. It will remain that way.
That information was requested simply for verification of the "off the shelf" status of an item that just so happens to be a spitting image of the TT2. And also for future reference.
It's no surprise that the question went unanswered.
RandyT
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It's no surprise that the question went unanswered.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but are you expecting us to believe that Andy is lying because he didn't give *you* the manufacturer's info ?
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but are you expecting us to believe that Andy is lying because he didn't give *you* the manufacturer's info ?
I'm sure there's a trusted 3rd party who could verify this info.
Regardless, what do you think I'll do, start copying "his" spinner design? ??? <boggle>
RandyT
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but are you expecting us to believe that Andy is lying because he didn't give *you* the manufacturer's info ?
I'm sure there's a trusted 3rd party who could verify this info.
Regardless, what do think I'll do, start copying "his" spinner design? ???
RandyT
It's no surprise that the question went unanswered.
;)
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What a ---gosh-darn--- sad situation. Randy could have kept his mouth shut and he would have come off like a class act, letting his product reputation stand on its own, instead of this "me first" childish ranting.
Randy, you have the "USA" market home advantage. Andy has the UK. There ARE plenty of people who avoid ordering over-seas if they can. So stop the damn whining, you still have the bigger customer base advantage by being in the US. If you really wanted to be the only one with a button-hole spinner, you should have patented it, or negotiated "non compete" deals with Ultimarc and other vendors. Otherwise, welcome to reality. And by arguing, right now you come off no different than Foley does in his threads defending the whole MAME thing.
< to be nice I removed my "jab" >
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Andy, if you could make something like this: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=83&products_id=307, I'm interested in buying a few.
:laugh2:
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What a ---gosh-darn--- sad situation. Randy could have kept his mouth shut and he would have come off like a class act, letting his product reputation stand on its own, instead of this "me first" childish ranting.
I'm glad you feel that way, Ray. The next thing coming down the pike is a button top joystick / shaft, and the work you did a while back was a real inspiration for me to bring that to folks. This one will even spin without chewing the wires up, ala the method used by, but not invented by SS. And yes, I did get the inventor of that methods blessing before moving forward with it. I'd thank him publicly but he asked to remain anonymous. So I will respect that.
Thanks,
RandyT
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Not that it matters to you Randy, but that was a perfect reply. I say just go ahead and pimp your products and let their quality speak for themselves, if you see someone who you think are infringing on your ideas, speak to them
publicly privately. Keeps thing nice and tidy in here and we can talk about arcade stuff, not argue amongst ourselves.
props
edited for badly placed word
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Randy - any reason why you don't accept PayPal? I keep all of my arcade funds in a separate account (by selling random stuff on eBay) and it really burns the wife when the credit card statement comes in with arcade-related charges. When I pay through PayPal she never even sees it... yeah, a little off-topic...
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Jav- Go to your paypal account and download "paypal plugin". You can then use paypal funds on any website whether they accpet it or not. It generates one time use master cards and uses your paypal funds.
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javeryh,
just get a paypal debit card. You will even get a kickback for using it.
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Randy - any reason why you don't accept PayPal?
Yes...it's PayPal. I use it quite a bit myself, so it's a little hypocritical not to accept it. But I prefer our established merchant protections over the ones PayPal has been notorious for in the past. If it's a small order drawn on something other than a CC, and shipped domestically, people usually send me an email and I work something out for them.
Good advice from both Donkey_Kong and mountain on this subject, BTW. Satisfies all parties.
RandyT
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Not that it matters to you Randy, but that was a perfect reply. I say just go ahead and pimp your products and let their quality speak for themselves, if you see someone who you think are infringing on your ideas, speak to them publicly. Keeps thing nice and tidy in here and we can talk about arcade stuff, not argue amongst ourselves.
props
Agreed. I know I've kind of changed gears in this thread, but it is only after some careful thought of just how hard it is for smaller businesses to acquire patents of new designs on devices that are already common that I understand where Randy is coming from. I've also gone back through some older posts and I see a trend of some (not all and not even many) people having a feeding frenzy when Randy (or anyone else with a strong differing opinion) makes honest, but blunt comments. That doesn't sit well with me personally because the things I've seen attacked were honest observations. Just because you don't like someone's approach or 'tude doesn't give one the right to trash them with unsubstantiated attacks.
I don't want to sound like I'm pointing any fingers because I'm not. This is just an observation. What I'm saying is I think some people just need to relax on all "sides", have a sense of humor and remember that we are here because we love us some classic arcade games. Keep (http://www.rings-things.com/board/non-cgi/emoticons/buttrock.gif) people.
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Randy - any reason why you don't accept PayPal? I keep all of my arcade funds in a separate account (by selling random stuff on eBay) and it really burns the wife when the credit card statement comes in with arcade-related charges. When I pay through PayPal she never even sees it... yeah, a little off-topic...
I do use paypal, but I get why someone wouldn't use them. Google the horror stories of consumers and business falling prey to the weak ID theft protection Paypal has offered. Their practices in general are questionable. Viral marketing, locking real people out of their OWN accounts, poor transaction protection, etc.
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Sweet! I had no idea you could do those things! I need a NovaMatrix marquee light and I've been tentative about pulling the trigger.
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Just because you don't like someone's approach or 'tude doesn't give one the right to trash them with unsubstantiated attacks.
Ultimarc and GGG both sell great products.
So it's a shame we're even discussing these matters.
But Randy's not deserving of the "moral high ground" in this thread.
Randy made the first "unsubstantiated attack", with his reference to Andy being "just about as sleazy as it gets."
You can't make that comment, without expecting replies.
Randy feels this product is similar to his own, but that doesn't mean it's identical - almost surely it isn't - with any similarity being purely coincidental.
Andy has also felt some GGG products bore stark similarities to products that came before them, but his response was to quietly accept this in the healthy spirit of competition, rather than launching into a personal attack on another vendor :
Note that we were the first to launch a spinner with a rear-mounted detachable flywheel. When the TT2 was launched with this feature I didnt say a thing.
When a version of the KeyWiz was launched which has the same connector layout as the I-PAC I didnt either. Just seemed to be a reasonable advance as its a neater layout than the original.
I remember when the TT1 was launched thinking how much like the Tornado it seemed. A good product nevertheless.
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it really burns the wife when the credit card statement comes in with arcade-related charges.
Apparently Wives are pretty much the same, all around the World. ;)
If I purchase something arcade related on the credit card, the only way to keep the peace is to shell out for a "sweetener" on the next statement, eg, shoes or clothing.
But that can get expensive, so your "PayPal slush fund" is an idea worth considering. ;D
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Randy made the first "unsubstantiated attack", with his reference to Andy being "just about as sleazy as it gets."
Randy feels this product is similar to his own, but that doesn't mean it's identical - almost surely it isn't - with any similarity being purely coincidental.
TPB, please understand that I am no longer speaking about the spinner situation. This relates to the discussion in general. What all of this is, is merely a difference of opinion. You have, as demonstrated above, come to one conclusion, but that conclusion is also in no way at all substantiated by any form of fact or proof. Therefore, by logic, it carries the exact same weight as my conclusion, or a completely different conclusion made by someone else. It is simply your take on the matter, based on the same data that is available to everyone else. You also misquoted me.
On the other hand, fervently defending your view, or trying to persuade others that yours is correct, is what adds fuel to fire. I stopped, others stopped, but you just did this again in this post, and have once more prompted a response, that I will no doubt get hammered on for by a few select individuals.
Andy has also felt some GGG products bore stark similarities to products that came before them, but his response was to quietly accept this in the healthy spirit of competition, rather than launching into a personal attack on another vendor :
And here, you have chosen to give a pass to one of the participants, apparently due to the bias you have as part of your conclusion. When one enters something into the discussion, it is because that individual wants those things to be considered. Saying that you observed X doing Y but "didn't have a problem with it" is exactly like saying "but X did Y, so that makes everything ok". Your ability to miss that subtlety, again, falls in line with your opinion on the topic, as is your entitlement. But by the same token, understand that others may see it differently, as is their entitlement.
I am happy to let this rest for now. Please be so kind as to do the same so that I may.
RandyT
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Just because you don't like someone's approach or 'tude doesn't give one the right to trash them with unsubstantiated attacks.
Ultimarc and GGG both sell great products.
So it's a shame we're even discussing these matters.
No doubt on the the product quality (especially seeing as they are copying each other...sorry I couldn't resist ;) )
It is a shame it has to be discussed and I think its fair to drop the subject all together in this thread. Like I said before. Randy could have proceeded differently to protect his legal rear, but then none of us would have the TT in our hands. Its a Catch-22 that we could go round and round about for months. Because of the cyclical logic of the situation it is really difficult to fault someone from being frustrated, but on the flip that doesn't give free reign for anyone to jump in and bash the "other" side. In fact it is kind of disheartening to realize there are such divided sides.
I'm actually shaking my head and laughing while I type this. I've been lurking here for about a year now and up until this thread I really had a different opinion of the forum...that it was this big happy love fest of everyone just wanting to build good cabs and controls. Which in many ways it is, I was just surprised to see such a division included.
Cheers all and happy spinning no matter what you use.
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Randy made the first "unsubstantiated attack", with his reference to Andy being "just about as sleazy as it gets."
You also misquoted me.
I think we'd all like to let this matter rest. No-one benefits from these types of discussions.
One thing though, I'm not aware of having mis-quoted you.
Yes, I added emphasis to the "sleazy" term you used to describe Andy.
If I was submitting a University Thesis (as opposed to posting in a forum), I would have included a footnote to say "emphasis added" :
It's unfortunate, however, that the "adoption" of yet another one of my concepts is necessary for him to "compete". Apologies for the snark, but this is just about as sleazy as it gets.
Andy read this remark the same way.
Understandably, he also focused on that term that was leveled at him :
I do not consider adopting new technology "sleazy" just because another supplier is also using this technology. The KeyWiz uses the same chip as the I-PAC, no problem with that.
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I guess it's necessary to spell it out.
The word was used to describe the action, as Andy seems to have understood based on his response, while you used it to describe an individual, which I did not do. Ergo, you misquoted me.
Are we ok now?
RandyT
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Regarding the unanswered question about the manufacturer. I am happy to supply details to a third-party as has been suggested, but not sure this would achieve anything since any person I would trust would probably not be accepted by the "second party".
Some more thoughts on this whole issue for what they are worth:
The manufacturer offered us either a threaded version with nut, or a version without threads, retained by a C-clamp. It was a toss-up, I was slightly worried about the nut coming loose. Eventually went with the threaded version after testing.
So now, the question is, should I have gone with the C-clamp version? Maybe I should and this would have avoided the "copying" accusation.
But, hold on, Randy accused me of "adopting one of his concepts". So that infers that there would have been no difference in his accusations, depending on which "concept" he actually means.
The "concept" cant be the spinner itself, the rear-mouted flyheel or the high resolution encoder as these all pre-date the TT2 (the second two appearing on the original Spintrak).
So I am thinking that any compact design I were to have launched would have attracted the same accusation because the "concept" is compactness.
There was in fact no way I was going to sell anything other than a compact spinner once the compact encoders became available. As I mentioned earlier, the compact encoders were NOT available when we were planning the original SpinTrak. I know that for a fact as I did a huge amount of research at that time. They became available shortly after we had ordered the first (and only) batch of those units, and then using anything else would have been crazy, as for one thing they are cheaper.
In fact as soon as they did become available I knew that we would not be ordering any more of the original design. That was even before it went on sale.
Having spotted the Avago HEDR-5420 encoder module which by that time had appeared on the Farnell website I planned to use those in the next version and mentally thought of a compact design, knowing I would not actually be implementing it for possibly a year as the first batch of the original design were still in production. In fact production of that first batch was greatly delayed and so the whole timescale extended.
In the end we didnt use the HEDR-5420 module as the manufacturer already had a complete unit available by that time as I have mentioned before.
It might just be that after this batch is sold (which is going to take some time) we change the order again. We have an OEM manufacturer who plans to use these and if he reports the nut is coming loose then the decision to change will be made.
Nice little Paypal diversion on this thread! In have a really scary Paypal story but I will keep if for a dedicated Paypal thread!
Andy
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Andy,
I am interested in getting the SpinTrak but have a few questions: 1) is the SS styleed knob with the o-rings available? I didn't see it as an option in the online store. 2) if I get an o-ring knob at Happ, will it fit on the SpinTrack, or are your SS styled knobs a different diameter? 3) is there a performance difference between connecting to a mini-pac and a USB 2.0? What are the advantages and disadvantages of the different interfaces?
Thanks!
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Do you no what, I am gonna ban all your arses!
Now..... to get admin rights.... maybe I can use paypal??? :laugh2:
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okay, now who's going to put a trackball in a button form factor?
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Randy does this to everyone he competes with, including Oscar Controls and Slikstik (and probably others who don't immediately come to mind). Every time he feels he's been wronged, which is pretty much all the time, he goes all scorched earth, posting hasty insults aimed not only at his competitors, but at anyone who suggests that he ought to chill out. It's not even always because he thinks his design has been stolen. Sometimes he craps up a product announcement thread just to go in and rant about why his competing product is better. It just ain't classy.
The list of people who have vowed to never purchase from him based on nothing but his hot temper and mean attitude is rather long. It's pretty obvious that he makes consistently great products, and from what I've read he offers great, personal customer service and tech support. That those facts can be true, yet he has a growing list of people who refuse to shop at GGG speaks volumes.
Stick to research and design, Randy, and hire yourself a public face. It would do wonders for your business.
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okay, now who's going to put a trackball in a button form factor?
I would actually buy that just because I don't have room for a full size one on my 23 5/8" CP, but would love to use it for a mouse, mostly. I'm sure some games would still be playable. With the technology of the compact spinners, it doesn't seem like a small marble trackball in that style would be too difficult. Of course, I'm just talking out of ---my bottom--- here.
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hire yourself a public face. It would do wonders for your business.
So the mean-looking wizard isn't helping?
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Andy,
I am interested in getting the SpinTrak but have a few questions: 1) is the SS styleed knob with the o-rings available? I didn't see it as an option in the online store. 2) if I get an o-ring knob at Happ, will it fit on the SpinTrack, or are your SS styled knobs a different diameter? 3) is there a performance difference between connecting to a mini-pac and a USB 2.0? What are the advantages and disadvantages of the different interfaces?
Thanks!
Yes we do have the o-ring knobs except not in red. I will get them added to the store. The Happ knobs have a 1/4 in hole whereas ours are 6mm.
USB 2.0 gives a higher maximum speed which is noticeable in very fast "twist" movements. How often this occurs would depend on the gameplay and the game itself.
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Thanks! I just ordered one! (Couldn't decide on a knob, so I got two.)
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What I'd like to know is if a single solitary cent is going to SlikStik or their owners? I refuse to purchase anything (even a knob) that lines those less-then-forthright peoples pockets.
No Slik-Stik? I'd suggest letting folks know....
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Randy does this to everyone he competes with, including Oscar Controls and Slikstik (and probably others who don't immediately come to mind). Every time he feels he's been wronged, which is pretty much all the time, he goes all scorched earth, posting hasty insults aimed not only at his competitors, but at anyone who suggests that he ought to chill out. It's not even always because he thinks his design has been stolen. Sometimes he craps up a product announcement thread just to go in and rant about why his competing product is better. It just ain't classy.
The list of people who have vowed to never purchase from him based on nothing but his hot temper and mean attitude is rather long. It's pretty obvious that he makes consistently great products, and from what I've read he offers great, personal customer service and tech support. That those facts can be true, yet he has a growing list of people who refuse to shop at GGG speaks volumes.
Stick to research and design, Randy, and hire yourself a public face. It would do wonders for your business.
Every response I have made in this thread has been on an even keel. The same cannot be said for others. There is only one party here with intimate knowledge as to how this situation has come about, yet without doing any research as to the veracity of the claims, the ones who have been attacking me have taken that individual's mere words as gospel.
Shmokes, we have customer base in the thousands, and have had a problem with about 3 of them who I could not satisfy. Your claims about "growing lists" are unfounded unless by stating so you are hoping to help make one.
We place our livelihood on the line each time we invest in a new product for this niche market. We don't have huge OEM deals. We don't live in a 1.7 million dollar home. Every niche item we produce, just because we have the passion to want a good version to be available to the community, impacts us personally, as niche items aren't the common "big sellers". And we produce more of these than anyone.
It saddens me to see the "usual suspects" yet again crawl out of the woodwork to savage my name, simply because I offered an opinion, and then again when forced to defend it, as to a business decision made by another in this community, one which concerns me far more deeply than any other individuals in this thread. A number of whom have in the past disseminated poor information and prop up poorly performing products to the community, and whose major problem with myself is the unwillingness to mince words when blowing the BS whistle on them. Some, like Shmokes just like to pile on once the festivities begin and bring up fantastical occurrences, which seem to exist primarily in his mind. Again, due to the personal interactions we have had in the past.
So I'll let the search engines speak for me from here on in. I personally don't have the stomach for it anymore.
RandyT
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMfr2CgIPhg
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Shmokes, we have customer base in the thousands, and have had a problem with about 3 of them who I could not satisfy.
As I mentioned in my post, you apparently have very good, personal customer service/tech support. I'm talking about the multiple people on these message boards who have said that they refuse to do business with you because of your unprofessional behavior here. As far as personal interactions we have had in the past that lead me to go against you, I don't know what you could possibly be referring to. The only negative interactions we have ever had have been in your competitor's threads in which you start mudslinging and making things generally unpleasant. Unless you're talking about disagreements in the PnR forum, but that has nothing to do with it (not to mention that I think we agree on more politically than we disagree). Anyway, my calling you out for your nasty attitude toward your competitors predates any political disagreements we've had.
Seriously, Randy, what good do you accomplish with these attacks? Read through the various threads in which you've done this and take the temperature. The vast majority of public opinion always sways against you. I have never, not one single time, EVER seen somebody say, "Wow . . . that's a shady thing to do to GGG, I'm not going to do business with so-and-so anymore." How do you explain this, Randy? Why is it always against GGG? Conspiracy? How can you even quantify the damage that you're doing to yourself? How do you quantify the value of GGG's image -- the general emotions a person feels when they think about your company? This affects sales. It's reasonable to assume that there are plenty of people out there who don't take such a hard-line principled approach to refusing to do business with you, but given a viable alternative, e.g., I-Pac/Keywiz, they will order from someone else simply because that person doesn't rub them the wrong way.
It's just bad business, Randy. If you really think that it's in your best interests to let everyone know that you think your competitor is behaving unethically, outline your position in your own thread. Taking a big ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- in your competitors' product announcement threads is obnoxious. It rubs people the wrong way. I don't care if your motives are made of gold sprinkled with god dust, this behavior comes off as really underhanded and slimy.
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Seriously, Randy, what good do you accomplish with these attacks? Read through the various threads in which you've done this and take the temperature. The vast majority of public opinion always sways against you. I have never, not one single time, EVER seen somebody say, "Wow . . . that's a shady thing to do to GGG, I'm not going to do business with so-and-so anymore." How do you explain this, Randy?
Since this is a direct question, I will answer.
A : How many members are in this community as opposed to the number of folks who have chimed in?
B: Those words of support are often conveyed in private. Nobody wants to get caught up in the abuse. Few revel in it the way you do.
C: This was not a "competitors announcement thread" and a comparison was made to the TT2
RandyT
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I'd rather not get caught up in the GGG vs Ultimarc stuff... but I would like to know if Slik-Stik, David Foley, or any other person with a less-than-desirable reputation on these forums (or others) is making any profit from these spinners. I can only assume the spinner tops are from Slikstik considering Andy's past exposure to S.S., but I don't know.
Andy... does S.S. or Foley or anyone known to these forums make $$ off your sales of this spinner? I'd certainly hate to contribute to the coffers of those who've done damage to this community.
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A while ago we swapped some stuff for all of Slikstiks remaining stock of knobs with the 6mm holes.
That was a one-off deal done before this new spinner was being produced. I can categorically state that no revenue from current or future sales will go to SS.
David Foley? Never had any dealings with him at all.
Andy
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That is good news indeed...
:applaud:
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A : How many members are in this community as opposed to the number of folks who have chimed in?
Exactly what I meant when I talked about being unable to quantify the damage you are doing to your business.
B: Those words of support are often conveyed in private. Nobody wants to get caught up in the abuse. Few revel in it the way you do.
Gimme a break. What have you ever personally done to me? Why would I want to abuse you any more than Andy or Oscar or Christian (well, actually Christian probably deserves some abuse)? At any rate, maybe there are people who convey support for you in private, but there's no reason to think that your competitors aren't getting just as much private support, considering that they tend to get a lot more public support.
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Christian would come on this board with guns blazing against anyone who he felt was bad-mouthing his products, and then personally attacked anyone who spoke up. Took it real personal, and make a complete jerk of himself while trying to defend his stuff.
Christian made good stuff, but was a complete hothead on the boards, a real keyboard-commando. Don't know if it's just NJ/NY types or what...like shmokes said, a total scorched earth policy...
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Fizzle, i hope you don't buy anything from Happ Controls, as I make money on a lot of the products that they sell.
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Fizzle, i hope you don't buy anything from Happ Controls, as I make money on a lot of the products that they sell.
Actually Mr. Foley, I've not purchased a single thing from Happ Controls directly, thank you. If I ever do, it will be a monitor, and unless you've delved in to the monitor business anytime soon, I think I am safe.
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I've actually been involved in the Monitor and TFT business for quite some time, but I'm sure you won't buy arcade monitors so we are probably safe.
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I stopped, others stopped, but you just did this again in this post, and have once more prompted a response
Are you that unable to control your own actions? Really?
There was no "prompting" except the one you conjured up from within, and comes from an inability to know when to give up the "I've gotta have the last word" game you're playing.
You can easily let this drop, yet you persist. Do you not see the ease at playing the "bet Randy can't resist replying" game that nobody wants to play, yet can't resist trying out, just once?
You're a picture-perfect example of "pedantic". Gimme a break ::)
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I only reply to the comments made about me. Any topics where I post an original comment are ones that are useful and informational.
I'm stuck in a damned if you do, damned if you don't. When people trash me and my good name here, and I don't reply, people on the forums say it just proves the misinformation or misrepresentations about me. When I do reply, I'm chastised by people such as yourself for taking up the thread.
If you would like to stick to useful topics, then I would fully agree. I continue to provide a lot of valuable products and information to this community, and will continue to do so, and when confronted will reply.
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I stopped, others stopped, but you just did this again in this post, and have once more prompted a response
Are you that unable to control your own actions? Really?
There was no "prompting" except the one you conjured up from within, and comes from an inability to know when to give up the "I've gotta have the last word" game you're playing.
You can easily let this drop, yet you persist. Do you not see the ease at playing the "bet Randy can't resist replying" game that nobody wants to play, yet can't resist trying out, just once?
You're a picture-perfect example of "pedantic". Gimme a break ::)
Let's be perfectly honest here. When anyone is asked a direct question, called out with ill comments, quoted and misunderstood...well no ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- they are going to reply even if they wish the thread would go away. The way I see people piling it on Randy (whether it is warranted or not is each person's opinion) after he's stepped aside is just as bad. The problem is people on both sides won't let it go...it isn't just Randy. A few people top in and make comments, they are addressed, things seem back on topic, then BAM a few more negative comments. Rinse and repeat.
Some of us here need to relax, go play video games or get laid...hell rub one out if you have to.
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I only reply to the comments made about me. Any topics where I post an original comment are ones that are useful and informational.
I'm stuck in a damned if you do, damned if you don't. When people trash me and my good name here, and I don't reply, people on the forums say it just proves the misinformation or misrepresentations about me. When I do reply, I'm chastised by people such as yourself for taking up the thread.
If you would like to stick to useful topics, then I would fully agree. I continue to provide a lot of valuable products and information to this community, and will continue to do so, and when confronted will reply.
You do realize that DrewKaree was quoting RandyT and not replying to you, right?
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I would just like to chime in and say that Randy has always been helpful with items I have purchased well after I have done so. His support and service is first rate. (Not to mention the products as well!) I am and will continue to be a repeat customer.
And Frizz - just to be on the safe side, try a Billabs monitor - we wouldn't want to line Foley's pockets by accident...
http://www.billabs.com/crts.htm (http://www.billabs.com/crts.htm)
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I completely agree that people need to get over it already. I'm not going away. There are people whose minds are so closed they I could hand out hundred dollar bills and they'd somehow come up with story about how I stole the money from the MAME team.
How about we move on, there is absolutely nothing productive out of hashing the MAME TM issue over and over again.
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I really could care less of what you think of me, but every post you make like this you further alienate yourself from others who may have been interested in purchasing your products. It's a real shame your this way, I've spent my good money on your products and while I enjoy them I wouldn't spend another dime simply because of your attitude towards people. Since your successful, I guess it doesn't matter if you lose a customer here and there.
^
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Well, you are entitled to your opinion of me, and voting with your wallet is a great strategy. Not sure how you I alienated you or others, and don't understand your comment about my attitude towards people, but everyone is entitled to take away what they will from this forum. I'll continue to defend myself, my actions and provide information and insight into my products.
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Well, you are entitled to your opinion of me, and voting with your wallet is a great strategy. Not sure how you I alienated you or others, and don't understand your comment about my attitude towards people, but everyone is entitled to take away what they will from this forum. I'll continue to defend myself, my actions and provide information and insight into my products.
Um David, that's something I quoted... of something vader said.... on page 1.... directed at Randy
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Um David, that's something I quoted... of something vader said.... on page 1.... directed at Randy
(http://orly.yarly.org/orly.jpeg)
Might want to include a comment of your own when quoting. I was wondering what the point of your post was...
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Um David, that's something I quoted... of something vader said.... on page 1.... directed at Randy
(http://orly.yarly.org/orly.jpeg)
Might want to include a comment of your own when quoting. I was wondering what the point of your post was...
It is customary in Internet forum land that when you find a post that you completely agree with, you just quote it. This is because it is would not be possible to add anything else to further clarify the perfectly typed post. But for the sake of clarity, I will go back and augment that first post.
PS: Plus the first three words are "Quote from vader". :P
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So, you just repeat it. Thank you. I shall now address you as Ctrl-V from now on.
:banghead:
(And David didn't get it either - maybe you should add a comment after all)
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It is customary in Internet forum land that when you find a post that you completely agree with, you just quote it.
Actually that's just a really bad habit some people have. It's not proper netiquette.
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It is customary in Internet forum land that when you find a post that you completely agree with, you just quote it.
Actually that's just a really bad habit some people have. It's not proper netiquette.
Well, it's not out of place in this thread.
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Well, it's not out of place in this thread.
I would disagree, but, meh.
Note the quote header. Hehe...
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Jesus told me in a dream last night that he doesn't care for this thread.
This thread needed some tommy ... ;)
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What is David Foley doing in this thread, anyway? None of this has anything to do with him, his products, or anything even tangentially related to him. Frizzle posts his name, and suddenly he's in here, defending his products when no one was even talking about him or his stuff...
David, no one was talking about you, and aside from Frizzle's one reference to you, no one else has said one word about you. They're talking about Randy Turner of Groovy Game Gear, and Andy Warne of Ultimarc...unless you also have a spinner design you're marketing here, you've jumped into the wrong thread...
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To be fair, this has been kind of a free-for-all.
Andy threw us a piece of wood, and Randy set it on fire. Then Frizzle drove a car into the blaze, and David showed up with more gas. Sprinkled throughout the thread, different people have showed up, some tossing trash in to see how it burns, while others tried buckets of water, but to no avail.
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What is David Foley doing in this thread, anyway?
Completing the trifecta ?
:dunno
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Jav- Go to your paypal account and download "paypal plugin". You can then use paypal funds on any website whether they accpet it or not. It generates one time use master cards and uses your paypal funds.
Huge THANK YOU for pointing this out to me. I placed an order no problem! Now I can run wild on the rest of the internet.... heh, heh, heh.... >:D
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Now I can run wild on the rest of the internet.... heh, heh, heh....
Quick! Catch him!
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1243/dogcatcher8va.jpg)
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Kev, I did a spinner design at UltraCade Technologies and sold it too Happ Controls in 2004. I show up whenever and where ever my name is mentioned.
I'd rather not get caught up in the GGG vs Ultimarc stuff... but I would like to know if Slik-Stik, David Foley, or any other person with a less-than-desirable reputation on these forums (or others) is making any profit from these spinners. I can only assume the spinner tops are from Slikstik considering Andy's past exposure to S.S., but I don't know.
Andy... does S.S. or Foley or anyone known to these forums make $$ off your sales of this spinner? I'd certainly hate to contribute to the coffers of those who've done damage to this community.
to which I simply replied
Fizzle, i hope you don't buy anything from Happ Controls, as I make money on a lot of the products that they sell.
I don't see how this can be characterized as me adding fuel to a fire. Fizzle wanted to avoid buying my products, and I pointed out that a lot of my products are built and sold by Happ Controls.
Kev, If this thread was as you say about Spinners, then I suggest you fire your comments at someone else since I didn't steer the ship of topic.
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I only reply to the comments made about me. Any topics where I post an original comment are ones that are useful and informational.
I'm stuck in a damned if you do, damned if you don't. When people trash me and my good name here, and I don't reply, people on the forums say it just proves the misinformation or misrepresentations about me. When I do reply, I'm chastised by people such as yourself for taking up the thread.
If you would like to stick to useful topics, then I would fully agree. I continue to provide a lot of valuable products and information to this community, and will continue to do so, and when confronted will reply.
You do realize that DrewKaree was quoting RandyT and not replying to you, right?
...if he can't find drama to comment on, he'll just have to create it. EXCELLENT example.
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I completely agree that people need to get over it already. I'm not going away. There are people whose minds are so closed they I could hand out hundred dollar bills and they'd somehow come up with story about how I stole the money from the MAME team.
How about we move on, there is absolutely nothing productive out of hashing the MAME TM issue over and over again.
Uh, Mr. Foley,
We're discussing SPINNERS here. SPINNERS. Not MAME. Not you. SPINNERS. :dunno
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Well, you are entitled to your opinion of me, and voting with your wallet is a great strategy. Not sure how you I alienated you or others, and don't understand your comment about my attitude towards people, but everyone is entitled to take away what they will from this forum. I'll continue to defend myself, my actions and provide information and insight into my products.
...you do realize YOU'RE TALKING TO YOURSELF, no?
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What is David Foley doing in this thread, anyway? None of this has anything to do with him, his products, or anything even tangentially related to him. Frizzle posts his name, and suddenly he's in here, defending his products when no one was even talking about him or his stuff...
David, no one was talking about you, and aside from Frizzle's one reference to you, no one else has said one word about you. They're talking about Randy Turner of Groovy Game Gear, and Andy Warne of Ultimarc...unless you also have a spinner design you're marketing here, you've jumped into the wrong thread...
Thank you Kevin! I thought I was going nuts. This guy's quite the character, eh? He's so hell-bent looking for people talking ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about him he seems to be making things up to prove some point?!
EDIT: David - You may want to monitor KLOV, MAMEWORLD, and a couple other smaller forums for your name too as I see people commenting on your work, ethics and the like at those sites as well. Lets not even start with the newsgroups. You've a mighty task ahead of you if you aim to smite the sharp tongue of your detractors...I do not envy such a task. I wish you godspeed.
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I simply let google monitor for me. Let's stay on Topic Fizzle, we are talking about Spinners. You just made 3 separate posts flaming me, not discussing Spinners. Calm down. Take a breath and talk about Spinners.
Uh, Mr. Foley,
We're discussing SPINNERS here. SPINNERS. Not MAME. Not you. SPINNERS. :dunno
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Gotta admit, Dave got you on that one, Friz. :dunno
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Gotta admit, Dave got you on that one, Friz.
Zzzziiiinnnng!!!
It seems the spinner topic is getting little play today anyway. :cheers:
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I came in here originally because I was researching spinners. I was all set to buy a TT High Low and wanted to read a review of the SpinTrac only to find WW3 instead. All this thread needs is a heated discussion on the merits of Nintendo joysticks and the invocation of Godwin's law to be complete. :laugh:
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Hey Andy,
How about creating a squeaky clean "Product Announcement" thread for the new SpinTrak.
It's such a nifty piece of gear, don't you think it warrants a fresh announcement ?
Sure, the whole crowd already know about it, after reading this thread.
But it's a crying shame, that the thread discussing the birth of this great new product, should end up crammed full of crud.
By all means, let the crud keep flowing here ... if people need to let off steam, they've sure as hell come to the right thread for it. ;D
But for the sake of the SpinTrak - Andy, how about creating that announcement thread ? ::)
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But for the sake of the SpinTrak - Andy, how about creating that announcement thread ? ::)
I think that would be akin to China announcing they are planning to hold the olympics next month...
All we need now is for Christian to join in. Perhaps I'll drop him an email lol.
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Kev, If this thread was as you say about Spinners, then I suggest you fire your comments at someone else since I didn't steer the ship of topic.
Only reason I even mentioned you was because you were replying to posts made to Randy as if you were being personally addressed...and defending yourself against something that wasn't even about you!
Just trying to point out there was no need to be defensive here...this was a whole different flamewar, one which had absolutely nothing to do with you or your products. If you'd like, we can open a new thread just about you - might make it easier than having to scope out Google for hits on your name...
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Hai guyz, I have a Defender #14 here I'm going to set on fire! Hey everyone look at me! >:D
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We're discussing SPINNERS here. SPINNERS. Not MAME. Not you. SPINNERS.
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5...
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Please....do it already.
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I just opened another beer and grabbed more popcorn. At least wait for this act to finish. Please!
;D
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We're discussing SPINNERS here. SPINNERS. Not MAME. Not you. SPINNERS.
David, that's not proper netiquette. You might want to include a comment of your own when quoting. :laugh2:
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The only funny part is that I already predicted you'd say something to that effect. ;D
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Look Martha! It's a train wreck!!
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It's just absurd and comical at this point. So many different fires burning. Why do you think I made the netiquette remark in the first place? Thought, "Why not another?" It was never meant as anything more.....you idiots. ;)
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I would like to ignore everyone on this forum and just post in response to my posts, is that possible? :D
I never thought that I would be the one to say it, but we desperately need tommy these days!
And to show the relevance that tommy would have on today`s BYOAC I am going to drop the world`s first `tommybomb`.
Each quote lines up with the point of view of someone who has posted in this thread, or someone who has avoided posting in this thread.
I leave it to the reader to make the matches.
I've been known to get off topic a time or two myself, it makes for a better thread sometimes. :cheers:
Didn't your mommy teach you if you have nothing nice to post keep your posts in the waste basket where they belong? :applaud:
I don't feel like commenting in this thread.
If you're going make a useless post please bring something to the table.
I prefer to wait for one of my fans to reply. If there is such a person.
I'm just very tired of having to suffer due to ignorance
Of course that's obnoxious to say.
What exactly do you mean by that there sick freak? ;D
It takes even less brain power to be an idiot and believe what fools tell you.
We can't have people coming in and expressing their opinions around here and getting away with it. :angel:
stop posting in this thread already, your big hat can't fit on your big ass any longer. :laugh:
Don't be a doody head. :D
What kind of comment is that supposed to be? Have the balls to say what you mean and mean what you say or don't bother. I will try to go easy on you but atleast try to explain yourself and complete a sentance.
The fact that your original idea somehow passed you by and you couldn't pull something out of your ass to save it does seem funny to me.
You can keep on calling me a liar all you like, i will continue to enjoy the boards and when and if i see others try to bring down happy arcade folks i will always have something to say about that.
Some guys like DK and others i won't name like to come off as witty without really giving too much info
Don't be silly, you have no chance
there shouldnt have been any confusion from my orig post i thought 8)
Luck for you i have a good sense of humor or I'd go all "omgzomg-uber" on your ass. :D
Real world advise from your good friend tommy.
And, the pinnacle of tommy`s wisdom:
Drew smells like fish!
;)
EDIT: Mea culpa -- I let in a shorthairism ... sorry.
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4...
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3.....
;)
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I love the turn this thread has taken! OSCAR is back!?!?
;D
PS, I don't feel boycotting Randy anymore. I was just being a jerk. ;D
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To be fair, this has been kind of a free-for-all.
Andy threw us a piece of wood, and Randy set it on fire. Then Frizzle drove a car into the blaze, and David showed up with more gas. Sprinkled throughout the thread, different people have showed up, some tossing trash in to see how it burns, while others tried buckets of water, but to no avail.
:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
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If Oscar comes back, I'll have even LESS reason to buy from Randy! Yayy! Hi Oscar, I am building a new CP and using my old Vortex from you. Still a nice piece, dude! Has held up very well over the years. (But my "best" spinner is still the Apache Blackhawk, woot) :)
Eric.
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OSCAR is back!?!?
I blame me. When I mentioned him in this thread earlier his Google monitors picked it up and directed him here.
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Sorry guys, but I am not back.. :(
Many of you know that I am very ingrained in the US auto industry, even more so since my company moved me out of the engineering dept and into sales. My focus has been on maintaining/bringing as many jobs to the U.S. as possible for the past few years, so I had to let "OSCAR" go, and it is for good...
In the past 12 months I was able to bring $80M+ worth of contracts into the U.S. that were intended for the Eastern Europe/Asia/India markets. Now that Ford and GM have come to the conclusion that they need to increase small car sales in the U.S. to survive, I have been very busy with the planning of the re-tooling of the truck/suv plants.
Anyway, just wanted to stop by and see what was going on... ;D
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Almost two and a half years without a post....it's just good to see you. Pop in more often, even if just to say hi.
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Many of you know that I am very ingrained in the US auto industry, even more so since my company moved me out of the engineering dept and into sales. My focus has been on maintaining/bringing as many jobs to the U.S. as possible for the past few years, so I had to let "OSCAR" go, and it is for good...
In the past 12 months I was able to bring $80M+ worth of contracts into the U.S. that were intended for the Eastern Europe/Asia/India markets. Now that Ford and GM have come to the conclusion that they need to increase small car sales in the U.S. to survive, I have been very busy with the planning of the re-tooling of the truck/suv plants.
Good to hear someone's out there fighting the "good fight". Glad to hear that there's progress.
Now hurry up and get those electric cars out! ;D
RandyT
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Anyway, just wanted to stop by and see what was going on... ;D
Of all the threads in which to "stop by", you chose THIS one ? Good timing ! :applaud:
As Andy says, this would be the "icing on the cake" ...
All we need now is for Christian to join in.
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This has been a very enjoyable thread!
Good thing there are alternatives in the marketplace...
:)
David
Apache Controls, LLC
Honeoye Falls, NY (USA)
ONLINE: www.apachecontrols.com
EMAIL: support@apachecontrols.com
(http://www.apachecontrols.com/ApacheControlsSkyScraper120x240.jpg)
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Many of you know that I am very ingrained in the US auto industry, even more so since my company moved me out of the engineering dept and into sales. My focus has been on maintaining/bringing as many jobs to the U.S. as possible for the past few years, so I had to let "OSCAR" go, and it is for good...
In the past 12 months I was able to bring $80M+ worth of contracts into the U.S. that were intended for the Eastern Europe/Asia/India markets. Now that Ford and GM have come to the conclusion that they need to increase small car sales in the U.S. to survive, I have been very busy with the planning of the re-tooling of the truck/suv plants.
Good to hear someone's out there fighting the "good fight". Glad to hear that there's progress.
Now hurry up and get those electric cars out! ;D
RandyT
Hey Randy,
Nice to see that you and GGG is doing well! I just checked out your site, impressive selection!!
Yeah, I've been doing the best I can. GM Hamtramck is scheduled to produce the Volt, and I am right on that as its in my backyard. IMO, GM is the furthest ahead of the Detroit-3 with the Volt, but we'll see. There are a few wild cards out there...
Best to you and your family,
Kelsey
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Anyway, just wanted to stop by and see what was going on... ;D
Of all the threads in which to "stop by", you chose THIS one ? Good timing ! :applaud:
As Andy says, this would be the "icing on the cake" ...
All we need now is for Christian to join in.
Actually.... yes. :)
When I popped in (which only happens every 6 months or so...), the top thread had a post by John and I just replied to it. As it turned out, it happened to be a thread about spinners with a bit of back-n-forth involved.
No bother to me, I don't have horse in this race anymore.
BTW, nice to meet you TPB, I don't recall seeing you around back a few years ago when I frequented around here, unless you changed handles. Nice to see there are still a bunch of good guys around. I *really* should stop by more often, I kinda miss it, just need to find the time....
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BTW, nice to meet you TPB, I don't recall seeing you around back a few years ago when I frequented around here, unless you changed handles. Nice to see there are still a bunch of good guys around. I *really* should stop by more often, I kinda miss it, just need to find the time....
Hi Oscar,
Likewise, it's nice to meet you. I'm not a veteran of the hobby, so I wasn't around back in your time. I've been around just long enough to catch a glimpse of SlikStik in their glory days, before all went South.
Hey, the Oscar Spinner is a real legend, a pioneer of its time. It's thanks to your innovation, that Ultimarc, GGG, and Apache were inspired to produce the fine products they do today. :applaud:
Good luck with the Auto business. I don't know how the US auto business is going, but as far as Ontario and the GTA goes ...
I was in Oakville last year, where they build the Ford Edge ... a nice looking SUV. But all's not rosy with the industry, there've been a lot of layoffs at the GM plant in Oshawa. Hopefully things will bounce back soon. ???
As for myself ? I'm an Aussie, but we're planning to spend a number of years (may end up being permanent) in the GTA down the track, where we have an investment property.
The Australian auto industry is going OK, the local GM subsidiary (called Holden in Australia) actually exports some vehicles to the U.S., where they're re-badged by GM. They also export to some of the "western friendly" countries in the Middle East.
Hope to see you around more often.
Cheers,
TPB.
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Can we get back to bickering here? This thread is being completely derailed!
;D
As a side note - I think we should all mention David Foley in our posts so he can participate more!
Lastly, Cheffo - you need to link each Tommy post to each person...
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As a side note - I think we should all mention David Foley in our posts so he can participate more!
Just do what I did...quote Mr. Foley in your sig that way his Google Alarm sounds every time you make a post...
:applaud:
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Okay, well, let's get this thread back on track. We used to use and recommend the Oscar spinners for customers that wanted Spinners added to their UltraCade Machines. We had designed our input cards to support two trackballs and two spinners. How about this for a thread re-starter. What is your favorite Spinner and why do you like it better than others?
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David,
Ive got a great idea for a new type of Spinner. Are you looking to
produce them? (at non-commercial costs)
If so, PM me.
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(at non-commercial costs)
:laugh2:
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What is your favorite Spinner and why do you like it better than others?
Um . . . aren't you the guy who tried to trademark MAME? ::)
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No, I'm the guy that actually did Trademark MAME. We are talking about Spinners here, not MAME.
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No, I'm the guy that actually did Trademark MAME. We are talking about Spinners here, not MAME.
So you can trademark someone elses idea for a spinner?
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You can't trademark an idea. A trademark is a way to register a name used in commerce to prevent others from using the same mark. Trademarks are assigned to companies on a first came first serve basis, just as patents are. Anyone may register to use any mark that isn't already registered. If you wish to learn more, go to the USPTO.GOV web site. If you to talk about the MAME trademark, start a new thread, this thread is about spinners.
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If you to talk about the MAME trademark, start a new thread.
A new thread to discuss, as requested by David Foley :
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=82695.0
Should we all be paying royalties to David Foley, every time we press the COIN button and play a game ?
How does this work ?
Did this guy have anything to do with authoring the MAME code ?
If he didn't, then it's an absolute joke. :dizzy:
The law is an ass.
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Just wanted to say that I've observed RandyT's temper a few times I think in the 6 months or so that I've been active here. I'm not going to say I will never buy from him, but it is certainly a turn off. I'm sure his products are great (from what people say) and I'm sure he provides good service (I have no reason to think otherwise), but really, this is not the place to be airing dirty laundry. I'm not even particularly siding with Andy in the "RandyT vs. Andy" battle - I really don't think this is the way to go about presenting your case, so I basically will ignore RandyT's charges.
So instead of setting the record straight, it has served only to turn me off. I don't hate RandyT, and I may very well buy products from him in the future, so don't read too much into this. It's just that I'm less likely to buy from him than I otherwise would be. Hopefully this thread has helped RandyT learn to avoid these kinds of situations.
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You know what, I got to chime in here. Andy & Randy, c'mon guys, we're on the same team here. There arent enough of us, customers, arcade lovers or whatever you want to call "us", here or in the UK to fight over this stuff.
Aparently there are a few trouble makers here who I have seen on 3 seperate threads just trying to start some crap and keep it going.
Look at it like this, most of us have a go to guy, if that guy doesnt have something we need, we go to the other guy, its simple really. I like Andy and I like Randy, as in a profesional business aspect.
Why dont you two settle down a little and let Sony, Nintendo & Microsoft go at it. There are only a hand full of "us" who buy both of your products, that will never change. Just calm yourselves and remember, we are in this hobby together. Yes, for you two it is your bread and butter, but "WE" help pay your bills, no need to trash each other in public.
Most of us come to these forums for fun. Its starting to be less fun.
David Foley, I dont know what you done to deserve some of the things said about you bro, but just let it roll off your back man. It's not worth getting all upset over something someone said in a forum...
TPB, what's your angle? Do we really need another thread to trash someone else...? I mean really?
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It is customary in Internet forum land that when you find a post that you completely agree with, you just quote it.
Actually that's just a really bad habit some people have. It's not proper netiquette.
I always wondered why people did that... I always just figured they accidentally hit "submit" too early or something.
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Spaced Ace,
I have no angle whatsoever on David Foley.
Frizzle had raised David's name in this thread. I don't think Frizzle expected it to turn into a discussion, that only arose when David picked up Frizzle's post on his "Google Alerts" monitor, and chimed into this thread with his own responses.
Personally, I had no knowledge of David.
Given a discussion had developed about David in this thread, the question begged to be asked, what is this all about ?
The new thread was at David's suggestion ... and was solely to query about the background to this discussion. I noticed you've made THREE posts (and counting) of your own in that new thread. Evidently it's a topic in which you're keen to express your opinion. ::)
Surely you don't believe that you've got the right to discuss a certain topic, but no-one else does ? That would be a tad hypocritical.
[ EDIT - footnote added ... ]
I believe David's explanation (of his position) sounds reasonable, and have said as such in the new thread.
Spaced Ace, if you wish to discuss David further, please stick to the new thread for that purpose ... that's why it was created, and at David's suggestion no less ... and you've obviously warmed to that new thread anyway, with three posts in it already. So let's put this thread to rest, or at least have no more discussion about David within it.
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Spaced Ace,
Those who have defended Andy's reputation in this thread, have stood up to be counted. That hardly makes them "trouble makers". It makes them principled people who have the conviction, and guts, to stand up for what they believe in.
Similarly for those who supported Randy's position ... while I haven't supported Randy's position in this thread (as much as I admire him as a vendor), at least those who have supported his position, have also had the guts to voice their opinion.
What's your position on Andy ? Do you think he's flogging a knock-off copied product in the SpinTrak ? Do you have the guts to stand up and be counted with your own opinion ?
Or would you rather hide behind wishy washy, meaningless "motherhood" statements, like "let's all be friends, and sing songs around the campfire together". And then meekly brand those who "do" have the guts to voice their opinion as "trouble makers" ?
An accusation was leveled at Andy's business practices in this thread. Those with principle were responding to that accusation.
[ Having said that, perhaps some took their conviction too far, with proclamations of "boycotting" a business - that's uncalled for, in my books. ]
The discussion is now done and dusted, and it's time to put this thread to rest.
Of course everyone wants harmony between the vendors. That's in everyone's interests. Ultimarc and GGG both make fine products, and are invaluable vendors in this hobby.
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(http://www.vermiliontrailssociety.com/photos_pix/KVR-Train-Derailed.jpg)
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removed by Ginsu Victim
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I'm out of town for a few days. These kinds of threads can get nasty quickly. For the next week, I'm asking folks not to post these kinds of threads. I'll bring this back when I come back from out of town.
Thanks!
--- saint
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It is customary in Internet forum land that when you find a post that you completely agree with, you just quote it.
Actually that's just a really bad habit some people have. It's not proper netiquette.
I always wondered why people did that... I always just figured they accidentally hit "submit" too early or something.
I always wondered too.
It's stupid. Unless you know the 'rule' it doesn't make sense.
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Unlocked.
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Randy is such a bastard!
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Just kidding.
I've actually mellowed out a bit. While I still find the type of stuff in this and other competitor friends completely inappropriate, I don't think I would refuse to purchase from him anymore for something that nobody else carried.
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Randy is such a bastard!
Oh yeah?
Well Andy is a bastard!
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Hehe - that's basically what these threads look like to outsiders. Perhaps we should look at this stuff from a different point of view before posting...
:cheers:
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Hey I just barely noticed this thread! I've been waiting for a RandyT Vs Andy thread and I missed most of it.
This thread would have been perfect for me. lol
:angry:
:cheers:
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Just kidding.
. . . and other competitor friends . . .
What the hell does that mean? That should say "threads". I have no idea where "friends" came from. ???
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EDIT: Mea culpa -- I let in a shorthairism ... sorry.
That's because you missed me, lover.
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EDIT: Mea culpa -- I let in a shorthairism ... sorry.
That's because you missed me, lover.
I just knew that two bannings for your incessant stupidity wouldn't stand between us ...
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EDIT: Mea culpa -- I let in a shorthairism ... sorry.
That's because you missed me, lover.
I just knew that two bannings for your incessant stupidity wouldn't stand between us ...
polaris fills the byoac fridge with beer and hands a can over the water to zakkistan
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polaris fills the byoac fridge with beer and hands a can over the water to zakkistan
/me thanks polaris and petitions the Zakkistanian government to place economic embargos on all countries that hunt the Welsh.
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/me thanks polaris and petitions the Zakkistanian government to place economic embargos on all countries that hunt the Welsh.
its about time the real superpowers of the world got together. :cheers:
wheres the opening a can of beer smiley, i feel like itll be needed, all of a sudden.